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Author Topic: North American Union and beyond  (Read 1198 times)
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David
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« on: August 09, 2011, 11:27:51 AM »

"What I'm saying is that a crisis is an event which can force democratic governments to make difficult decisions like those that will be required to create a North American Community," ... "It's not that I want another 9/11 crisis, but having a crisis would force decisions that otherwise might not get made.",

--Robert Pastor, who helped write this, http://www.cfr.org/canada/building-north-american-community/p8102


 The world is integrating in one way or another, but whether its fair to everyone involved depends on who's pushing hardest for that integration. So far, it seems like financial interests (banks, corporations) have the greatest stake in this idea and use neo-liberal policies to further globalization with regular working class people being pushed to the margins. Who knows, maybe one day if the world becomes completely unified on paper we'd see greater rights for all. Other people, worldnetdaily and Alex Jones types, seem more skeptical.

So, (to all that apply) if it came down to it, would you vote for a NAU?


 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:24:13 PM by David » Logged
Kab
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2011, 11:30:23 AM »

I plan on moving to space when I get older so I don't give a shit.
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Albatross
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 01:03:16 PM »

but whether its fair to everyone involved depends on who's pushing hardest for that integration.

im gonna wall of text this quick because im concerned about it

its just some more neo colonialism, but as opposed to the previous decades of wealth where these agreements were funded by a strong economy through the world bank and imf,  america now has banked everything on their army. their economy is collapsing and their resources are reaching scarcity - they have only one card left to play.

is canada fucked? of course we are fucked. NA union in my opinion is a smaller deal than the pacific free trade agreement but no matter how you look at it canada is fucked. we have an insane wealth of resources (including nearly 1/3 of the earth's remaining oil supply), and as much as we would love for the world to just leave us alone to peacefully enjoy our sustainable affluent country there is no way in fuck that is actually going to happen. china and india are running out of grain the world is running out of oil and we are experiencing a global shift in power from a nation who is clinging to the last of its reign by flexing military strength. while most of our shit has already been bought out by foreign companies for pennies thanks to our hopeless government someone is going to go for a monopoly on canada's resources and the haper government has been more than willing to put us up for sale.

we arent gonna get steamrolled by tanks because we are going to take it lying down, its just gonna suck.

TL;DR nau doesnt really matter at this point and canada is for sale
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:05:00 PM by Albatross » Logged
David
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2011, 02:34:39 PM »

canada's oil supply: you're talking about the tar sands, right? At this point isnt it easier to get at oil in the mideast than to extract the oil you're talking about? Because I heard that extracting oil from the alberta oil sands isnt even worth the effort at this point. not to say that it might be more technologically feasable in the future.

Also I dont buy the whole, "we're running out of resources" line. I've been fed that schtick for so long and only come to realize that its not food or resources that are actually running out, it's just matter of scarcity, like you said. But there's also artificial scarcity promoted by interests who wish to privatize every last thing on this planet. This is done with food and grain all over the world. Private interests push their way into local markets and corner them, forcing out local business and manipulating prices. Also what do you think is in the future for Canada? It sounds like you're worried about the market being "opened up" to foreign trade. I take it you're not for Canada joining the Pacific free trade agreement/TPP?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 05:06:00 PM by David » Logged
Mooley
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2011, 03:00:27 PM »

canada's oil supply: you're talking about the tar sands, right? At this point isnt easier  to get oil from the mideast than to extract the oil you're talking about? Because I heard that extracting oil from the alberta oil sands isnt even worth the effort at this point. not to say that it might be more technologically feasable in the future, then Canada might be a major oil producing nation.

Also I dont buy the whole, "we're running out of resources" line. I've been fed that schtick for so long and only come to realize that its not food or resources that are actually running out, it's just matter of scarcity, like you said. Artificial scarcity promoted by interests who wish to privatize every last thing on this planet. This is done with food and grain all over the world. Private interests push their way into local markets and corner them, forcing out local business and manipulating prices. Also what do you think is in the future for Canada? It sounds like you're worried about the market being "opened up" to foreign trade. I take it you're not for Canada joining the Pacific free trade agreement/TPP?


http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/washington/bilat_can/energy-energie.aspx?lang=eng

Oilsands aren't even close to the whole story

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David
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2011, 03:39:47 PM »

^
Canada has the world?s second-largest proved reserves (after Saudi Arabia) at 176 billion barrels, 170 billion of which are in the oil sands.

But Canada is the leading supplier of oil to the US, regardless of where it comes from.


If Canada suffers from deregulation of its markets I hope they dont get it as bad as some of the developing world has gotten it.

Also, Albatross, you talk about the past decades of wealth being supported by a  "strong economy through the IMF and World Bank". Are we done with the IMF and World Bank regulating global economic policy? Maybe you agree that we need another Bretton Woods to bring about a new system of monetary management in the future?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 05:06:59 PM by David » Logged
Albatross
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2011, 06:36:01 PM »

canada's oil supply: you're talking about the tar sands, right? At this point isnt it easier to get at oil in the mideast than to extract the oil you're talking about? Because I heard that extracting oil from the alberta oil sands isnt even worth the effort at this point. not to say that it might be more technologically feasable in the future.

Also I dont buy the whole, "we're running out of resources" line. I've been fed that schtick for so long and only come to realize that its not food or resources that are actually running out, it's just matter of scarcity, like you said. But there's also artificial scarcity promoted by interests who wish to privatize every last thing on this planet. This is done with food and grain all over the world. Private interests push their way into local markets and corner them, forcing out local business and manipulating prices. Also what do you think is in the future for Canada? It sounds like you're worried about the market being "opened up" to foreign trade. I take it you're not for Canada joining the Pacific free trade agreement/TPP?

well you were right about canada in trouble when deregulation arrives in your last post

the oil sands are INSANELY inefficient. i believe it costs 2 barrels of oil to extract 3 there and im too lazy to look it up - at any rate, china, USA, France, and other countries are harvesting the shit out of it. There is also a massive landgrab in the canadian arctic for oil supplies between USA, Russia, and Canada and the US has had naval boats rolling around in our waters illegally for years now as a big fuck you we do what we want. if im not mistaken, russias bid at arctic control fell through but canada is sleeping on it so who knows whos gonna get it.

this ties in with your scarcity idea though, basically canadas oil supply is horribly inefficient - the oil sands cost almost as much oil to harvest as they produce and the antarctic drilling was found to be far to dangerous to be viable. the reason both of these are now areas of contention is because we are running out of oil everywhere else and these countries are looking to secure the next sources as they are almost the last.

im not sure why you wouldnt buy into scarcity, given the state of american grain output over the last 5 years. the largest suppliers of wheat and grain are india and china, both of which overproduced off their lands with poor farming methods for the last 10 years in order to achieve the growth they did, and in doing so literally turned thousands of kilometers of farmland to desert. they have dropped their water tables so low in many parts of india that irrigation often costs more than the crops that can be produced from it and china has 3,600 square kilometers of arable land turn to desert every year. basically food supply is on a massive bubble right now, thanks in part to a huge monsoon that hit india and allowed them to produce a fuckton of wheat this year

at any rate everyone is running out of stuff and canada has a lot of stuff and we are fucked  Sad
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pugmaster
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 08:00:00 PM »

So does this mean I don't need a passport when going to the Canada?
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David
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 10:08:00 AM »

Albatross, you were talking about the watertables dropping, and that is real scarcity. Maybe water would be better regulated under private control. Sustainable water use in the future would be important and since agriculture takes up most of the fresh water maybe we just need to figure out how to produce only enough food that the world actually needs. There needs to be better agricultural practices and farming methods, like you said.

I've heard over and over again that future wars will be fought over the worlds fresh water supply.
Reminds me of the movie Tank Girl, where 'Water and Power' runs the world.  Pepsi and Coca-Cola could end up running our public schools.

Maybe in a North American Union there wont be any more public schools, or public anything for that matter. On the other hand, there could be a revamped version of current public schools where everyone gets 'reeducated' on the evils of nationalism and why borders are the devil.

As far as travel, I too would like to not need a passport.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:37:17 PM by David » Logged
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