Thinking about joining the armed forces

[HATE!]

You try and call me out on being honest about my feelings of death being cheapened yet you made a thread, not just a post, but an entire thread about killing dogs.  You're a horrible person even if that's a joke. 

In my entire time in the military, I can at least say that I have never met an asshole who has ever even joked about something like that.  Way to invalidate yourself.

[Beer Keg Peg Leg]

also, to the op, why not go to trade school? be a plumber, builder, electrician etc... i would way rather do that than be in the armed forces.

[HATE!]

also, to the op, why not go to trade school? be a plumber, builder, electrician etc... i would way rather do that than be in the armed forces.

I recommend this too, it's a really great idea and it's really rewarding to do a job where you literally see the results at the end of the day.  I do a little work in a motorcycle garage now, mainly paint schemes and design, but I am going to start messing with the metal too and I have to say that it's a blast to do and just hang out with three dudes in a garage with some music playing.

My only regret is that I never pursued being a movie make-up artist.  I guess I was a little intimidated by it or maybe even embarrassed because I was young and caught up in what my friends might think.  I guess I still could, but man..... I really should have done that RIGHT out of high school. 

[Kab]

I made that thread because I got bit by a dog and thought it'd be funny to see people's reactions. Obviously people who kill animals are despicable, but I also think it's pretty fucked up to kill human beings as well.

The difference is, no one is going around killing dogs in real life, but people are murdered, brutalized, blown apart and treated like their lives are worthless every day in these wars.

Whatever though, I don't even know what the point of this discussion is anymore, other than I'm not going to kiss people's asses for participating in an industry of death and greed like Sleazy expects me to.

[tough omelette]

Yea, that's what I thought. You know I do respect that you're at least honest about your experiences, but instead of preaching a message of apathy you could maybe use what you've learned to try and do some good with it. Until then, don't act like your horse is any higher than mine.

At the end of the day, at worst I'm an asshole on the internet. But I'm not a guy who's killed innocent people because I wanted benefits and career options.

Expecting to get banned, but don't really care, because i'll just make another account.

fixed.

[GarglesCmen]

HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude loser weighing out his options.

No one else is saying it, so I will.  You're a huge piece of shit when you do something like this.  He's a guy who is unhappy with his current situation and asking a question.  It's too bad he doesn't have it all fucking figured out like you, you smug prick.

I may be a huge prick, but I don't kill people for money. I have a real problem with people who sign up for wars because they want an easy paycheck. And no I don't have it all figured out, but at least I've got some principles.

By the way I have a hard time respecting a guy who says death is cheapened for him. Just because you have a shitty job doesn't mean you need to become a shitty person...

Did you stick your tampon farther than you would have liked and now you can't get it out? You are a huge pile.

[Cadillac Ranch Dressing]

I made that thread because I got bit by a dog and thought it'd be funny to see people's reactions. Obviously people who kill animals are despicable, but I also think it's pretty fucked up to kill human beings as well.

The difference is, no one is going around killing dogs in real life, but people are murdered, brutalized, blown apart and treated like their lives are worthless every day in these wars.

Whatever though, I don't even know what the point of this discussion is anymore, other than I'm not going to kiss people's asses for participating in an industry of death and greed like Sleazy expects me to.

What are you talking about?

Also, you're being quite a piece of shit.

[weedpop]

If you think being around death constantly doesn't make it less impactful, well, you obviously haven't been around it very much. Nobody is mentally strong enough to insulate their psyche from the effects of war, which is a scenario that is in most cases more horrible and emotionally deadening than any civilian can imagine. It's not an "easy paycheck" as you so eloquently put it Kab, and your opinions on this matter make you sound like a sheltered, self-righteous and infantile little troll of a human, much like all of your other posts, incidentally.

On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.

[HATE!]

Damn weedpop, it's ironic that you used the word "eloquent" in your post because your post is really well written.  You just summed up why I am getting out.  It's not just that I work with jerks- that's true for every job, but it's that I don't really believe in why we are there- the whole thing, I don't want to help them or kill them and I just feel like we're over there spinning wheels.

Seriously though, that was a really good post.  Psyched on that.

[grimcity]

I just deleted a whole lot of shit that I was gonna post, but I'll just say back in '94 I tried to get into the Army after 2 1/2 years of an ROTC like program housed under the Explorer Scouts (giving me a bump to PFC) and not getting in just fucked with me soooo bad. I had a documented back injury but I never brought it up, and it never came up until the last/worst possible second. I used to kick ass at all the PT shit, I really just wanted to serve... never once thought about killing another person.

I wound up going to college, doing the private sector IT thing for a number of years, and now get to serve my state during my day job and do emergency communications for our Governor's office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (GOHSEP, civilian employee).

I had actually looked at joining the Reserves or the Guard last year, but it would have put a major strain on the office I work for and my wife wasn't really feeling it. Not to mention, the job I was looking at would have had me in training for way too long. I dunno, I just always appreciated the Army but not in terms of machismo or because of any bloodlust.

Also, I know HATE and he's only tried to stab me in the face four or maybe five times the last weekend we hung out. Seriously though, he's not exactly your image of conformity, nor is he a meathead or anything like that.

Just don't join the Marines. Those haircuts are permanent.

[dlx111]

Little too much hate talk to get some clear points in here.

Anyway my dad was in Desert Storm as a medic and also a mechanic later on. He was in Kuwait and basically never saw "combat" but was on the line fixing, working, blah blah. While mentally he isnt messed up, his hearing got wrecked from being close to the shelling of a city, that and hes had some minute health affects from the drugs they tried and did use on him and the rest of the guinea pigs. Thank god he never had the, i cnat recall the real bad pill or watever they were testing, he got out of it somehow. Point being there are other effects to weigh other than just the toll of death, war, and mental stuff.

My two friends also recruited to the national guard and are going into mechanic units and stuff like that, which is ironic becus they joined primarily becus school wasnt shapin up for them and i dont think they see the possibility of being sent over like my dad wa. He started as national guard.

Just because ur not aiming for combat doesnt mean u wont see it. In the armys eye ur just another willing body.
Needless to say, i wont be following in my dads steps, but if i were to sugest anything i would say look into coast guard or even, if u live by the water, parks or wildlife. In florida my dads friend works for the state patrolling the rivers and coast on the states gas money in their boats... that was my dads oher choice before he stupidly joined up.

Dont make any hasty decisions.

[HATE!]

That's another good point.  I really do feel like a number.  There are so many things that are done for my "health and welfare" that really feels like they're just checking the box sometimes.  I am lucky because I have an extremely strong support network with my wife and family, but there are a lot of soldiers who don't, so that feeling is only exaggerated for them.

[cringe.]

If you think being around death constantly doesn't make it less impactful, well, you obviously haven't been around it very much. Nobody is mentally strong enough to insulate their psyche from the effects of war, which is a scenario that is in most cases more horrible and emotionally deadening than any civilian can imagine. It's not an "easy paycheck" as you so eloquently put it Kab, and your opinions on this matter make you sound like a sheltered, self-righteous and infantile little troll of a human, much like all of your other posts, incidentally.

On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.

really good post.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Do you like PTSD and a higher likelyhood of unemployment than the general population? If so, join the armed forces. If not, you might want to consider something else. And if you didn't like your teachers calling home when you didn't do your homework, wait until you see what a drill sargent does when you fuck up.

Sleazy- the op is saying he is considering joining the armed forces. There is nothing wrong with reminding him of the fact that every war the U.S. has been in since 1865 has related to imperialism, and that we just got out of one war for oil and are about to jump into another one. The odds are very high that if he does see combat, it will be for corporate profit, not the security of the nation. That is a legitimate thing to consider when considering signing your life away. It may be noble to die in defense of your country, but it definitely isn't to die in defense of profits, and he might be doing that.
And your argument only flies with already enlisted soldiers. Sure, a guy who enlisted in 2000 can say "I don't choose the wars, I just fight them" to defend his service in Iraq, but if you are joining a volunteer army after the war has been declared or when the writing on the wall is there that it will happen, then you ARE choosing the war. You are saying "You know that mission you are going on to take over a nation to steal its resources? I want in."
Its like the old saying goes: "What if they held a war, and nobody came?" Obviously that will never happen, but it illustrates the point that when you join the armed forces, you are supporting the war machine, because they can't do it without willing soldiers.

[Cthulhu!]

[brycickle]

 Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

[HATE!]

Gipper- why do you think he'd face higher unemployment?  I am getting job offers right and left and only half of them are related to the military.  I understand it might be due to my job specifically, but I also see all these programs advertised to hire vets.  Not attacking you, more curious because I am about to be that guy.

[weedpop]

I think statistically the rate of unemployment is higher amongst veterans, but those numbers are skewed by people with severe deformities or psychological issues from being in combat, which obviously make it harder to fit back into the workforce.

[HATE!]

Ah, ok.  That makes a lot of sense.  The way I see it, I just have nine years work experience.  I have 3 semesters left of school and then I'll have the degree to which is necessary for my future career.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

yeah, higher rate of unemployment. I wouldn't say that's a skewed statistic in that being in war does that, and if he joins that could be him. You definitely can pick up skills, though from what I hear a lot of people don't end up getting the training recruiters often promise.

[HATE!]

yeah, higher rate of unemployment. I wouldn't say that's a skewed statistic in that being in war does that, and if he joins that could be him. You definitely can pick up skills, though from what I hear a lot of people don't end up getting the training recruiters often promise.

Yeah, someone in the Infantry would have a hard time.  Their job is basically to be a trigger puller and that doesn't translate to the civilian jobs.  I work in Military Intelligence, so the jobs available in the civilian sector open up quite a bit more.

[few123456789]

  Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

I do.  I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business.  Plumbing is an example.  Or he could end up as a general contractor.  You do not need college for either.

Do you know what a capital investment implies?

Trying to help the op...

[Sleazy]

On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.

there's nothing kneekjerk about my feelings, so your pejorative is misplaced. my feeling is simply that holding enlisted men accountable for the types of conflicts we get in is misplaced. if you feel that we are in the wrong conflicts then it's the civilians that are the problem not the people who enlist. and i find it odd that you reference nationalism in your post but then convieniently ignore it when you are talking about the nobility of why people serve. sure there are people who don't have respectful motivations but this country is full of people who actually want to serve, people with familys that are millitary, etc... i don't see how someone who has no other options (or at least feels that way) or that comes from a patriotic, nationlistic background or is a 3rd generation enlisted man is open for scrutiny. but that's just my position because I don't like feeling like a judgemental asshole, others see it differently.

and then my previous point was slightly exagerated because i'd argue that two recent conflict at least started with non-imperialist goals, afganistan and lybia. you got no respect for people who enlisted wanting to go to afganistan after 911 or people who help oust gaddafi? whats the problem with that motivator? obviously, nobility could be found if you looked even if it isn't the dominate motivator so it's hard to take serious positions that ignore that obvious fact.

there are clearly exceptions going both ways and i don't try to deny that war hungry meat heads exist.

my point instead is that i don't focus on the attrocities of war as war is part of the human condition and it is what it always has been and what it will always be. it's obviously a horrible and unavoidable part of human existence. if we want to try and decrease the scope of war i feel there are much better places to put that energy than taking cheap shots at enlisted men on the internet which is all this thread trolls are accomplishing. if you really feel so strongly then do like i did and get out in the real world and do something about it. join or start an organization, organize or participate in protest, ect... we live in a democracy (or oligarchy from your point of view) and we can sway things if we organize. but that hasn't happened. it's us, not the service men, that are the ones that are unable to stop the war machine. they are just the ones that sign up to experience the attrocities first hand which as you are aware, is not an enjoyable experience for the majority of them.

i guess mostly i'm just curious if it's internet courage that people are showing here or if people would actually show this kind of disrespect to a persons face. like would you guys actually act like a dick to hate in person if you met him at a skatepark? that just seems fucked to me. it's the same kind of misplaced, dick move that protestors at abortion clinics are pulling.

[layzieyez]

You want to hear the funniest part about you posting this image?

Brian Brannon, the lead singer of that band is a United States Navy Reservist.  He is a chief (E-7).  He has the same rating (MOS) that I have.  I am a mass communication specialist (public affairs/photojournalist).  Not everyone is an ignorant ass (even if those individuals exist).  Some of us are pretty damned cool and I am so proud to be a part of the same organization as that man. 

Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.  My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.

I rose up the ranks in the navy faster than most people experience because I was college educated going enlisted (I didn't want to obligate myself to 10 years if I joined as an officer).  After bootcamp, I was promoted to E-4 since I graduated from my specialty school at the top of my class as the honor grad, and I made E-5 six months after being promoted to E-4 after scoring so high on my advancement exam.  So, in less than a year in the fleet, I was the equivalent of a sergeant.

I never drank the kool aid and I have consistently taken on some of the most difficult jobs working solo where the navy would have needed at least 3-5 sailors to achieve the amount of efficiency and success at those jobs.  I have more than earned my pay and then some.

Because I am so driven, the navy didn't blink at spending over $50,000 on making me better at what I do with additional schooling.  The double edge sword is since I am so capable, I know I don't need to stay in the navy to be successful.  I value the health of my wife and kids (mental and physical) and my time too much to spend my time away from them anymore.  It is too much to ask of them to deal with the stress of my absence.  I will take all the skills and drive that I have and work at what I love doing exactly my way instead of how someone ranking above me dictates.

Your mileage will vary with military service.  I made the most of the opportunity.  If you choose to do it, don't waste it.  Don't be a waste of taxpayer money.  I have an absolute hate for those individuals who aren't earning their pay and thankfully, they are getting cut from the ranks.

I hope my testimonial helps in your decision making.

[brycickle]

  Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

I do.  I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business.  Plumbing is an example.  Or he could end up as a general contractor.  You do not need college for either.

Do you know what a capital investment implies?

Trying to help the op...

So you're telling me that you could start a business without investing any money in it? Show me your business model because I'm fucking in!!

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.

  Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

I do.  I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business.  Plumbing is an example.  Or he could end up as a general contractor.  You do not need college for either.

Do you know what a capital investment implies?

Trying to help the op...

So you're telling me that you could start a business without investing any money in it? Show me your business model because I'm fucking in!!

hahaha.
Oh, and if you want to be a certified contractor or plumber you do need job training, which is intellectual capital.
If he runs the business, eventually he'll need either a secretary or workers, which is human capital.
He's not going to be walking into houses and using his bare hands to unclog toilets so he'll need tools, which are also a form of capital.
Let's also not forget the monetary opportunity cost of the start of the business, where you make little money and can't really work another job to supplement income as you get your business going and build a customer base.
I swear to god in another recent thread this fucking moron claimed nobody but him understands economics.
Few plays this "above slap" act and always fails.
Its hillarious.

[Sleazy]

Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.?  My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.

pretty god damn noble if you ask me.

looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.

go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.

Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.

i'm pretty sure that in this imaginary utopia we'd get invaded. your a history teacher, point to one example in history of this? i'm not saying i don't feel the vibe

Imagine Live - John Lennon - 72	Small | Large

i'm just saying it's fantasy.

it's like vegiterians getting pissed at meat eaters. there's two problems with that. one, people are going to still choose to eat meat so get over yourself. two, even if everyone quit, we'd still kill animals due to limited resources. it's again a fantasy that strives for an imaginary utopian goal that is unachievable. i'm not saying these ideas don't have good natured premises, it's just they ignore the practicle realities of the world we live in and i feel we'd be better served trying to make sure that animals get the best quailty of life available and that wars are fought for good reasons than trying to strive for unachievable perfection. you might sell cage free to the masses, you won't sell tofu.

[Tufty]

 "Nationalism is the last shelter of the fraudsters."


 On other news... If they want to serve their country they should organise a revolution against governments and the capital...

 What patriotism stands for??? Have you ever thought??? What the fuck patriotism means when politicians spit it out??? For me the most patriotic thing would be a class war and not a war about oil or a war to be in control of another country (Libya). Wars America does are wars about profit. NO NO my friend its not only the oil or power. Its also stealing tax payer money and giving them to their friends, the Industrialists of war for weapons and other shit. And they not only steal their money but also their kids' lives by sending them to war and disillusioning them that they serve the country while they are serving THE CAPITAL.

[Truancy]

HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.

[dlx111]

wanted to point out also that if your unsure at all go talk to someone who has seen firsthand the senseless killings, violence, or civilian deaths and talk to the ones who have had their lives changed because of it. Theres nothing gonna change a stubborn person more than either a firsthand experience or a heart to heart with someone who has had one.

Also take a look at the case of the guy who leaked the apache civilian mess in afghan or iraq and is now going to rot in prison or (i dont think itll go over) be executed for standing up and wanting the public to see the ineffectiveness and sloppy job that his own men were witnessing and/or a part of.

Sidenote- I dont know about any of you, and i dont mean to stir up hate, but does anyone else not share the whole "thank your for your service, thanks for serving our country, blah blah" feeling?
I mean dont misquote me, i am happy that men and women are getting home safe and were not killed, but for everyone 1 that comes home safe there has to be atleast 2 or 3 that've had their lives changed from wounds or something. The whole parade thing goes hand in hand also, i really dont FEEL any safer for having these soldiers fight for oil or regime changes, or experience any more FREEDOM for having them fight. In my opinion, the average cop is doing more to protect me and my family by keeping drug addicts away from the public or drunk drivers off the road. The police deserve more parades than any military imo.

I just feel like the whole SERVE your country feeling doesnt and shouldnt be attached to a war that is an AGGRESSIVE, preemptive war. Peoples idea of what a "noble" war, not there is really is one, has been dramatically changed.