Thinking about joining the armed forces

[Wall of Nausea]

gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.

I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.

Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn

Good post.

To OP:

Grandfather did Korea(airforce). Great grandfather did ww2 (airforce). Father was Army. If anything, if you want to join, do so in times of none conflict and you can ease through doing useless tasks like my father, washing a superiors truck in the army for no reason at all be it decoration/command. With so much public funding/options (this is to OP by the way) level your pros and cons. You 're much better playing the social game in union friendly states versus right to work states (south). Be it you are in one. My father garnered skills in tech shit in the late 70's/early 80's which benefited him greatly, but he had to work and strive with competition. He is somewhat of an intelligent individual with a scope of what he wanted for his family versus an abusive military background family. He got on with a company in the banking service industry and was able to sustain us(family).

Anyway, you have vast choice without military intervention. I've worked many minimum wage gigs in the last few years and kept a roof over my head, food in my belly, and clothes on my back. On a minimal paycheck, and just recently decided to go back to school at age 26 and with a job promotion to 25k a year + benefits (jack shit to most, but its all personal best, man) Took some searching and endless bullshit gigs, but there is a light at the end of a tunnel, be it your expectations aren't too high. All I have to say is be ready to work HARD period. Shit isn't landing on your doorstep regardless of prior hardwork. Good luck, man.

[brycickle]

Air Force still has firefighters as far as I know.

ARFF. It's pretty much just put out the fire and let the people rescue themselves. You would never send a fire fighter into that level of IDLH. At some point I'll find a place to train and be certified ARFF as well as get my red card to do wildland fire fighting. There are a lot of jobs out there to be had in the field, but competition is stiff.

[chockfullofthat]

This thread was truly great reading.  The gipper always delivers the goods.

[Sleazy]

gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.

I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.

Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn

fair enough and great post gipper. i still feel differently towards troups that you but definitely respect your position. i'm a big fan of howard zinn and enjoyed that video. i'll probably grab his empire book. i already have his peoples history of the united states. i think if we used books more like these below the college level we might see kids get more interested in history and possibly get a more engaged ellectorate.

[brycickle]

^^One of my highschool history teachers turned me on to Zinn. Needless to say he was one of the best teachers I had.

[brycickle]

Yeah, just say fuck it and become Batman!!

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.

I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.

Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn

fair enough and great post gipper. i still feel differently towards troups that you but definitely respect your position. i'm a big fan of howard zinn and enjoyed that video. i'll probably grab his empire book. i already have his peoples history of the united states. i think if we used books more like these below the college level we might see kids get more interested in history and possibly get a more engaged ellectorate.

People's history of American Empire is actually a graphic novel. Its the book most commonly borrowed from me by students. Between the crazy stories and comic book format they love it.

[TomTom]

pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.

You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.

Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.

Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.

You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.

Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.

Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!

You come off as an asshole. It was probably your upbringing around meathead assholes who like the feeling of authority that makes you feel the need to force people to shut up if you don't agree with them though, so I don't blame you.

[Sleazy]

feeling of authority??? in the military??? hahaha, it's the most bow down and kiss my ass environment you could possibly work in.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Are you serious? As soon as you join any armed forces branch they tell you how you are higher than a civillian now, and I consistently get that attitude from them. Also, how about the god-like power many feel when they are able to kill people without repurcussion:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/afghan-massacre-suspect-staff-sgt-robert-bales-criminal/story?id=15948211
This guy felt like he had the right to go out and kill whoever he wanted... And the fucking press has his back!

Fuck being a killer, no matter who glorifies or defends it.

If you join the armed forces, you are opening yourself up to being a killer of random people, this is not a moral position EVER. You need the money? Get a fucking job like the rest of us.

[sprayTAN101]

I firmly believe that people join the military because they lack better options.
Although these options may exist, they may not be available or apparent to everyone.

Hopefully this thread can provide information of some of those options. Give the OP viable options to serving instead of pushing him and others in a similar position further into the dirt.

[TomTom]

pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.

You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.

Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.

Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!

You come off as an asshole. It was probably your upbringing around meathead assholes who like the feeling of authority that makes you feel the need to force people to shut up if you don't agree with them though, so I don't blame you.

How is that Gipper?
I was not raised around meatheads, that is my whole point!
My Dad is now one of the leading experts on viking history in Denmark/Northern Germany,how is that for a meathead?
All the dudes I met while affiliated with the army were good people, really good people.
Even the marines ( surprisinlgy enough).
I never joined the army but chose civil service, and all the "meatheads" I was brought up around were really supportive!

All I am saying is that
a) Kab writes stupid shit all the time.
and b) there is no way to say that all soldiers are stupid meatheads.
Hell, I've even met nice cops, or teachers ( imagine that )

But yes I'll give you that one, he didn't say ALL soldiers, he said the majority,...
I just hate these stereotypes.

[HATE!]

I don't really care if anyone thinks I am a meathead.  The whole "better than civilians" ego DOES exist, but I'd say less than half the people I know act like that.  Most of the time, it's more like a general acknowledgement that civilian and military experiences are pretty different.  The amount of people I've had try to overly break things down to me because they think I am a meathead soldier is pretty tiring.  It's always really ironic when I find out they've only been to 6 states and have based all their opinions off one college class that opened their eyes or something.

[layzieyez]

I definitely had more options with my college degree and my work experience.

The guys I know who throw around weight like they're better than everyone else because of their rank are usually the guys who are stuck in their current rank because of their shitty attitude. 

Most high ranking guys I've met including some admirals are pretty cool about it and quite humble about their position because they know the guys who want the rank just to have it are idiots since they know don't know the workload and skills they need to attain it.

I don't know about the other services, but in the navy, we're a pretty polite bunch to civilians (I open doors, say please and thank you or greet people, give directions to people who look lost, etc. on a daily basis) which is pretty crazy with the stereotype of the crude and foul mouthed sailor.  I mean we can get that way sometimes at each other, but I know who pays my bills so I don't do anything to sully the uniform I put on.  I'm pretty antisocial when I take off my uniform to be honest.

[tony volume]

I don't really care if anyone thinks I am a meathead.  The whole "better than civilians" ego DOES exist, but I'd say less than half the people I know act like that.  Most of the time, it's more like a general acknowledgement that civilian and military experiences are pretty different.  The amount of people I've had try to overly break things down to me because they think I am a meathead soldier is pretty tiring.  It's always really ironic when I find out they've only been to 6 states and have based all their opinions off one college class that opened their eyes or something.

ive just found this thread...

ive been in the navy 3 years, i made E5 in two years, and this has been hard, but worth it.
im stationed in norfolk, va. on a ship that is a small marine carrier. i met some talented skateboarders who are enlisted, both navy and marine.
we deployed for 9 months last year, from august 2010 to may 2011. we hit only 3 ports.

it was like being stuck at work forever, with long lunch lines, crowded gym, and smoke pit. the friends you make during deployments help out.

[tony volume]

I definitely had more options with my college degree and my work experience.

The guys I know who throw around weight like they're better than everyone else because of their rank are usually the guys who are stuck in their current rank because of their shitty attitude. 

Most high ranking guys I've met including some admirals are pretty cool about it and quite humble about their position because they know the guys who want the rank just to have it are idiots since they know don't know the workload and skills they need to attain it.

I don't know about the other services, but in the navy, we're a pretty polite bunch to civilians (I open doors, say please and thank you or greet people, give directions to people who look lost, etc. on a daily basis) which is pretty crazy with the stereotype of the crude and foul mouthed sailor.  I mean we can get that way sometimes at each other, but I know who pays my bills so I don't do anything to sully the uniform I put on.  I'm pretty antisocial when I take off my uniform to be honest.

agreed!
where you stationed???

[gutterhead.]

SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed  if it happens.

[layzieyez]

I'm in Bremerton, WA.  Don't ever go here.  Unless you're a shut-in.  Worst place to be if you want to skateboard more than a few months out of the year.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed  if it happens.

Just remember, recruiters are allowed to lie, and you probably won't get the deal you signed up for.

[TomTom]

SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed  if it happens.

Just remember, recruiters are allowed to lie, and you probably won't get the deal you signed up for.

that is just so fucking weird, how is this legal?
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.

[HATE!]

SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed  if it happens.

Just remember, recruiters are allowed to lie, and you probably won't get the deal you signed up for.

that is just so fucking weird, how is this legal?
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.

Because it's JUST like selling a car.  Things are embellished, glossed over and just touched on.  Other thing are left out, softened or made vague.  You're a number.  They don't HAVE to care about your wellbeing.  That's why if you decide to go it's on YOU to do your homework, ask the right questions and not get fucked.

gutterhead- about the tattoos- I am fully sleeved and have one leg tattooed from knee to ankle.  You can still get in with minor things on your hands and neck (just not overboard), but that will possibly change soon with the drawdowns.  If you're in, you're in though.  If they change the rules, you'll be grandfathered in.

[layzieyez]

It also helps if you have an ASVAB of 96.  The recruiters know you're too stupid to be lied to (for the most part) and that if you walked away without joining they know they let a valuable asset go when their usual run of the mill recruits that grace their office are GED recipients, plea bargained to join instead of jail time, or druggies who struggle to pass every drug test.

[Dominic Hynard]

I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.

My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.

I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.

And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.

So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.

I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.

My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.

I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.

And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.

So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.

I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.

It's valid. Even if this dude doesn't have kids your experience is valuable to the discussion. Thanks for the input.
Any sick skate spots in Cypress?

[The Poster Formerly Known As Crass]

I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.

My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.

I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.

And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.

So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.

I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.

I can sort of relate. It's been hard to make friends. I've made friends but after about 3 years my family moved again. So I really never had a true best friend, it's sad to think about. Every once in awhile I'll talk to them on facebook but thats not the same as seeing them in person. Now that I'm in college with just about every student atleast a decade older than me, making friends has been hard. I've meet a few people at work but havent spent any time with them.

[HATE!]

I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.

My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.

I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.

And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.

So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.

I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.

I can sort of relate. It's been hard to make friends. I've made friends but after about 3 years my family moved again. So I really never had a true best friend, it's sad to think about. Every once in awhile I'll talk to them on facebook but thats not the same as seeing them in person. Now that I'm in college with just about every student atleast a decade older than me, making friends has been hard. I've meet a few people at work but havent spent any time with them.

Please explain.  Are you Doogie Howser?

Oh and Dominic- ANY opinion is valid, man!  My dad was in the military as well.  I enjoyed the travel and was never really one to get too attached to people, so I had a different experience with that.  The worst was when my dad would deploy.

[The Poster Formerly Known As Crass]

Naw. I'm 21 but the college I go to is online and only offers night courses. http://www.brandman.edu/

It's a good school but it lacks things I want to do.

[Wall of Nausea]

SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed  if it happens.

Just remember, recruiters are allowed to lie, and you probably won't get the deal you signed up for.

that is just so fucking weird, how is this legal?
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.

Because it's JUST like selling a car.  Things are embellished, glossed over and just touched on.  Other thing are left out, softened or made vague.  You're a number.  They don't HAVE to care about your wellbeing.  That's why if you decide to go it's on YOU to do your homework, ask the right questions and not get fucked.

gutterhead- about the tattoos- I am fully sleeved and have one leg tattooed from knee to ankle.  You can still get in with minor things on your hands and neck (just not overboard), but that will possibly change soon with the drawdowns.  If you're in, you're in though.  If they change the rules, you'll be grandfathered in.

I've ran into new recruits and recruiters at various bars on occasion and always had a great dialogue about putting coins in coffers and said recruiters not giving a shit about supposed cannon fodder. Made some enlisted fellas uneasy and recruiters even more so. The counter was always some bullshit counter point of benefits that barely serve getting your rights/humanity reduced. In my opinion recruiters are advertising/pr scum with a different decoration of bullshit. As in a bachelor's in bullshit. Spot on post HATE!

If you know what you're giving up and are cool with it, more power to you. Stronger man than I, but in the mean time I wouldn't chance it.

[layzieyez]

Family is very valid to this discussion.  It's a huge part of why I'm getting out after this duty station. 

After this, I'm supposed to be out to sea for three years if I chose to stay in. 

My kids are currently 3 (son) and 7 (daughter).  I'm not trying to miss out on their most formative years being stuck on a carrier.  I love the relationship we have with each other and their personalities are pretty damned awesome, too.  All that shit will surely change if daddy is gone for the majority of the next three years. 

I've seen it happen to my buddies kids that are playing with my kids.  Little kids like that seem so broken from the experience of so much absence in their lives.  They're always attention starved for a male figure which sucks for me since I'm almost always the only male around since I've got shore duty.