lead singer of Against Me! is going to be a tranny now

[oyolar]

If it makes him/her happy, then it's cool. This reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Quagmire's dad gets a sex change. He tells Quagmire he's not gay, just a woman trapped in a man's body. Always thought that statement could start quite the discussion...

^bump. Do you guys think there's a difference?

Yes, there is a difference. Although I can't think of any off of the top of my head, I know that there have been sociologists/queer theorists that have talked about the necessity of differentiating the two. But for example, gay is a label based off of sexual orientation/attraction whereas trans- is a label for self-identity formation.


Edit: Since it was brought up, but should not become the focus of this thread, the idea that one is born WITH race is an idiotic idea in and of itself.

Wait, but aren't all people born into a society which has created institutions and social constructs around them before they were born? Sure, you could say that edit if people were born outside of a society, but realistically, that doesn't happen. A kid born into a category society considers to be black isn't going to be raised out of it.

Yeah, that's very true. My comment was more to the idea that race and racial categories/understandings exist transsocial (i.e. that black in U.S. is the same as black in Africa) or that race has always been consistent within a society. It's similar to gender--people are born with markers (male/female genitalia; dark/light skin) but the implications are not inherent with(in) those markers.  They're socially created.

[Brandon]

right on.  they played a hole in the wall here in stockton last year and it was one of the best shows i've ever been to.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

If it makes him/her happy, then it's cool. This reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Quagmire's dad gets a sex change. He tells Quagmire he's not gay, just a woman trapped in a man's body. Always thought that statement could start quite the discussion...

^bump. Do you guys think there's a difference?

Yes, there is a difference. Although I can't think of any off of the top of my head, I know that there have been sociologists/queer theorists that have talked about the necessity of differentiating the two. But for example, gay is a label based off of sexual orientation/attraction whereas trans- is a label for self-identity formation.


Edit: Since it was brought up, but should not become the focus of this thread, the idea that one is born WITH race is an idiotic idea in and of itself.

Wait, but aren't all people born into a society which has created institutions and social constructs around them before they were born? Sure, you could say that edit if people were born outside of a society, but realistically, that doesn't happen. A kid born into a category society considers to be black isn't going to be raised out of it.

Yeah, that's very true. My comment was more to the idea that race and racial categories/understandings exist transsocial (i.e. that black in U.S. is the same as black in Africa) or that race has always been consistent within a society. It's similar to gender--people are born with markers (male/female genitalia; dark/light skin) but the implications are not inherent with(in) those markers.  They're socially created.

Good point. Still, isn't gender more socially constrained than created? I really thought that was a big part of the whole transgender thing, like despite all of the markers and social constraints, something inherently inside of the person fights the construct. Is that inaccurate?


Oh, and for the sake of appreciation, this is their best song, and one of the best ever:

Against Me - Untitled	Small | Large

And considering the deep reading, the name "against me!" seems a lot more self aware now.

[Lumpy Oatmeal]

when i was 15 i thought this band was the 4 smartest people in the world who had everything figured out.....they changed though.....i get really sad listening to both reinventing axl rose and the crime ep because they used to mean so much to me

this was my favorite song

against me - walking is still honest(good quality)	Small | Large

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

I really fucking hated that "I was a teenage anarchist" song. Such a "fuck you" to all of the old fans.

[Lumpy Oatmeal]

the band they describe in reinventing axl rose is so far from what they are now its sickening

[aleksander]

Can't be easy... I saw them on new years eve last year and at midnight Tom did a solo piece about a transgender prostitute and everybody was kind of like what the fuck? but I guess it was really significant. Good on her for living life.

[the_unknown_soldier]

Well, looks like I have a new favorite female musician now...

[steve]

There's no way that managuense is the only person on the board who feels this way. It would be interesting to hear from others with similar attitudes. I can't say that this idea of his (assuming it's a male) is even an opinion because an opinion is generally thought out and educated through observation of facts- this is not and is therefore an attitude... quite a close minded attitude at that. It's fine that he's got these ideas too but it must be an awfully fearful existence to be stuck in.

Has anyone else noticed, over the past couple years anyways, a greater awareness of transgender advocacy here in the States? I've also read on sites like salon/slate/truthdig, that "tranny/shemale" category is one of the highest rising markets in internet porn. Now, some of these actresses appear ultra feminine, certainly not the rocky horror "transvestites" of the past. Aside from the dick that isn't visible until clothes are shed, some are sexier than traditional female porn actresses. What does this say about the accepted ideas of modern sexuality? Labeling someone "gay" or even "bisexual" because of an attraction is stepping into murky waters. I'm interested to read what those arguing against mangs attitude have to say about attractive trannys and why they aren't into them.


 Aside from that, when thinking about the recent popular advocacy for transgender/sexual awareness and rights, how does this porn market effect the trans community? It's considered a fetish market and I can't imagine that that's a positive role or social position for these people to occupy.

[justforyou]

post porn that you jacked off to last! im furiously trying to get into the wemale less area. will someone please cum onto this message... even some Perspiration Porn would do.

[vegan*shawn]

If he / she is happy that is all that should be cared about. A lot of time when people really have a problem with stuff like this it is because they have a lot of the same issues and it scares them when people are not afraid to deal with them.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Against Me! - Transgender Dysphoria Blues (Unreleased Acoustic)	Small | Large

Your tells are so obvious.
Shoulders too broad for a girl
Keeps you reminded
Helps you remember where you come from

You want them to notice
The ragged ends of your summer dress
You want them to see you like they see every other girl.
They just see a faggot. They hold their breath not to catch the sick
Washed up on the coast, I wish we could've spent the whole day alone
With you

You've got no cunt in your strut
You've got no hips to shake
You know it's obvious, but we can't choose how we're made

[oyolar]

Hey Gip--I'll respond to you (and steve) in the morning when I'm not feeling sick/can get info on papers about the trans community and its portrayal in mainstream media.

[steve]

Hey Gip--I'll respond to you (and steve) in the morning when I'm not feeling sick/can get info on papers about the trans community and its portrayal in mainstream media.

word. good lookin' out.

hope you feel better

[oyolar]

steve: Thanks for the well wishes. Here are some books about the trans community that you might want to look into that specifically talk about your questions: The tranny in the bedroom: transsexual pornography's re-vision of gendered desire by E Morrison (University of Texas at Austin 200) and The Transvestite and the Transsexual: Public Categories and Private Identities by Dave King. I also have a paper about transsexuals in porn if you want to PM me your e-mail, I can send it to you.

Good point. Still, isn't gender more socially constrained than created? I really thought that was a big part of the whole transgender thing, like despite all of the markers and social constraints, something inherently inside of the person fights the construct. Is that inaccurate?

This is a good question. It really goes more into psychology than I know about, but I guess a big factor of what makes this so difficult is trying to decide which is "more" socially constructed in American/Western society--race or gender.  What you said about transgender is true, but I'm not sure what causes the discomfort with the gender constructs. I'm hesitant to say they are inherently fighting the gender constructs that are ascribed to them just because I could see a trans person feeling more comfortable with their gender under different social conditions. But I'm coming at this from a pure sociological point of view. I'm sure a socio-psychological one might help explain it better.

[ahl33]

Hopefully, this will help them actually write decent music.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

steve: Thanks for the well wishes. Here are some books about the trans community that you might want to look into that specifically talk about your questions: The tranny in the bedroom: transsexual pornography's re-vision of gendered desire by E Morrison (University of Texas at Austin 200) and The Transvestite and the Transsexual: Public Categories and Private Identities by Dave King. I also have a paper about transsexuals in porn if you want to PM me your e-mail, I can send it to you.

Good point. Still, isn't gender more socially constrained than created? I really thought that was a big part of the whole transgender thing, like despite all of the markers and social constraints, something inherently inside of the person fights the construct. Is that inaccurate?

This is a good question. It really goes more into psychology than I know about, but I guess a big factor of what makes this so difficult is trying to decide which is "more" socially constructed in American/Western society--race or gender.  What you said about transgender is true, but I'm not sure what causes the discomfort with the gender constructs. I'm hesitant to say they are inherently fighting the gender constructs that are ascribed to them just because I could see a trans person feeling more comfortable with their gender under different social conditions. But I'm coming at this from a pure sociological point of view. I'm sure a socio-psychological one might help explain it better.

I heard somewhere that gender social constructs are so heavy that children feel a gender identity before they can even talk. When you think about it too, in some ways, our society has fewer gender constructs than ever before, women and men can do the same work, women can wear pants and actually most men's clothes without any harassment at all.  The interesting thing is that there is still a clear gender heirarchy that transgender  male-> female makes very apparent. A woman dressing in a relatively masculine way is acceptable, but a guy who wears a skirt is a faggot, a sissy, and less than a man. Its real obvious when you look at it that way that the male identity is still seen as a better one than female.
In terms of what you were saying, it would be really interesting to see a cross cultural study on the transgender identity and how it varies with differing gender roles.
We have a "spirit week" at my school where there is a theme every day. This year there was "gender bender day" and far more girls came dressed with loose jeans and a t-shirt than guys wore girls stuff

[oyolar]

I completely agree that that kind of study would be interesting. Especially when you consider the fact that several cultures have a third gender, often seen as an "in-between" male/female (men/women) gender so to speak, such as the travesti, fa'afafine, or mukhannath. Hell, the Bugis have five types of gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bissu .

EDIT: The fact that you guys had a "gender bender day" is pretty awesome actually. Especially considering the fact that some public schools are getting in trouble because teachers are telling kids to accept the fact that some people are gay.

[BuddyPal]

Against Me? More like Against She!


has anybody made that joke yet? Good.

[Upgrayedd]

Saw Against Me on New Years 11/12 and saw Tom Gabel on the Revival Tour with Chuck Ragan. Good for Laura. She wasn't comfortable and she has decided to let herself be. No hate here.

[Mundungus]

shit is disgusting. serious mental disorder going on i dont give a fuck what the pc dipshits have to say about it. and budweiser its basically an abbreviation of the word transexual which is what they are, would you prefer "hormonally modified woman" or some bullshit like that?

I haven't even finished reading the thread yet, but you're such a kook. Hormonally modified woman? Whaaaat??

edit: maybe I should have just read through first..

If he / she is happy that is all that should be cared about. A lot of time when people really have a problem with stuff like this it is because they have a lot of the same issues and it scares them when people are not afraid to deal with them.

I think this is probably pretty on target.
[/quote]

[HATE!]

The gender social constructs thing is pretty interesting.  My sister has three kids- two boys and a girl, and she went well out of her way to provide them with non-gender specific toys and entertainment.  One of her boys is as "little boy" as it gets- super into anything with a motor and sports and her daughter is as "little girl" as they get- pink, babydolls etc.  It's really fascinating and at some point my sister has to give in and allow society to play it's part.  Her middle son though is the interesting one to me.  He likes ALL of it.  He likes to wear pink and cook- two traditional female stereotypes and he also likes tanks and  other military related vehicles and sports.  He is also fluent in Madarin- he basically learns it alongside English as he is only 4.  Really neat watching him interact.  Interestingly enough he also got in a fight at pre-school when he told a kid that birds were just "little dinosaurs with feathers."  I hope he is in charge of something important in the future.

[tim]

fuck man i really dont care about that either. but again i dont hate the guy i really dont wish him any harm, to be honest i feel bad for him

That is part of your problem right there too then.

To pursue her happiness she is making a harder/more bold life decision than you will ever make and you "feel bad for him." Fuck you.

[sleepypancakes]

The gender social constructs thing is pretty interesting.  My sister has three kids- two boys and a girl, and she went well out of her way to provide them with non-gender specific toys and entertainment.  One of her boys is as "little boy" as it gets- super into anything with a motor and sports and her daughter is as "little girl" as they get- pink, babydolls etc.  It's really fascinating and at some point my sister has to give in and allow society to play it's part.  Her middle son though is the interesting one to me.  He likes ALL of it.  He likes to wear pink and cook- two traditional female stereotypes and he also likes tanks and  other military related vehicles and sports.  He is also fluent in Madarin- he basically learns it alongside English as he is only 4.  Really neat watching him interact.  Interestingly enough he also got in a fight at pre-school when he told a kid that birds were just "little dinosaurs with feathers."  I hope he is in charge of something important in the future.

It sounds like your nephew has a bright, intellectual future ahead of him. Which hopefully doesn't lead to socially awkward high school years like it did for so many kids at my school. They all sound pretty rad though and it's great that they all got into different things.