SLAP Politics - Who Is Better For Working Class?

[Pearl]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-24/working-class-concerns-don-t-cause-romney-or-obama-pain

Romney? Obama? Do either give a shit?

Discuss.

[ChronicBluntSlider]

You're kidding me?  Both are in the pockets of high finance and many other powerful business interests, but Romney clearly and unabashedly supports owners over workers and lives in this fantasy where if everybody works hard and cut taxes everybody will be wealthy.  And it sounds cliche, but Romney is really fuckin' out of touch with regular people, he does not understand that shit happens to perfectly good people.  Obama should be doing more including permanently ending some Bush era tax cuts, but his father wasn't governor of Michigan, he does have more perspective, and I think he is clearly better for the working class than Romney.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Democrats clearly, though the fact that they are the party doing the most for working people is really telling about American poltics.

[Citizen on Patron]

Ok first of all no offense to any mexicans out there but... YOU TOOK MEH JOB!!


Working class is slowly dying, don't you know if you're white you're supposed to go to school and become somebody's manager? That's what our system is built on, the laws of suppression and limitation. No matter your views it will never change because of what our nation is built around, and that's crooked broke dicked dogs trying to bless your girlfriend and wife with his own seed. Now out of the choices you've provided... Obama.

[layzieyez]

GOP don't give a shit about nobody else except themselves.  Very much us vs. them mentality.  Too bad so many people don't see that just because they back their archaic views on "family values" and "religious views" which they do so just to further their own agenda that doesn't mean you want them running things.

[Tufty]

 The best answer is working class. And the term working class includes everyone who is working while someone else benefits from them multiply in contrast with their wages.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Ok first of all no offense to any mexicans out there but... YOU TOOK MEH JOB!!

I think you mean Chinese people. If you think we have a healthy manufacturing base, but its filled with too many undocumented immigrants, you have been fooled. Cheap slave labor abroad is what killed our manufacturing sector.

Even though I deleted the second part of what you wrote I agree. You can't have an entire country of management and financial backers. Its not diverse enough.

The best answer is working class. And the term working class includes everyone who is working while someone else benefits from them multiply in contrast with their wages.

Agreed. Until working people unite and make their voice heard in a real way, nobody will listen to the problems the working class faces.

[sven thorkel]

the communist party USA would probably be the best bet for working class folk. just sayin'   

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

nah, communism never has worked out that great for the working class

[Nosferatu]

What system has worked out for the working class?

Also, Gipper I PMd you and would value a response.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

sorry, somehow it lets me post without signing in to see my pm account. I'll check. I suppose the best thing that's worked out for the middle class is a mixed-system which has capitalist and socialist elements in it to protect workers rights. Strong unionization I guess. I don't really have a complete answer for that though...We're still figuring it out as humans I think.

[Monty Burns]

What system has worked out for the working class?

Also, Gipper I PMd you and would value a response.

Scandinavian countries are doing it right .

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Wouldn't mind their system. Its ironic that Monty Burns is chiming in on this subject though..same with Ronald Reagan I guess.

[carrot juice]

Always Remember - Politicians are there to serve the peoples wishes not the other way around

there is no perfect system and unfortunately it is a decision between a giant douche and a turd sandwich

but yeh fuck greedy right wing pricks will spin so much bullshit and fear and get working class to vote for someone who will then fuck them over non stop

[codithou]

Gipper, this is kind of unrelated but I'm interested in hearing what you think about Ron Paul. I am not nearly involved in politics enough to know the pros and cons of each person running or each side, but I just know he has pretty polarizing views and people either love him or hate him. Thoughts?

[sprayTAN101]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

[S.E.]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

Exactly right ^^

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

Exactly right ^^

Exactly wrong and shortsighted. Whats the point of cheap goods if nobody can buy them? Historically our middle and working class have been strongest under strong unions. You can't have a system where manufacturing is exported or where there are no unions and have a strong middle class. It has never existed in history. I'm down to make more and pay for my goods than make nothing and end up on the streets, despite how cheap goods are.
This is some retarded right wing corporatist bullshit you are spewing right here. "The only way to save the economy is to sacrifice the middle class for the sake of helping the elites!" That's stupid, and I guarantee that whatever you do right now, you will be compensated less and less with the destruction of unions, even if you don't have a union job. But hey, you aren't looking out for your interests, you are looking out for the interests of the super rich ownership class, some odd altruism you have there.

The United States needs an organized manufacturing base if it wants to sustain itself as a powerful nation. It may be hard to figure out how to do it, but a U.S. without unions would be a fucked up place to live. In fact, you can already see it. There is a clear correlation between lowered union membership and stagnant working class wages. Reagan tried your "kill unions to save the economy" tactic and it ruined the lives of working and poor people. That route has been terrible for this country, and it continues to destroy us. And the reason it can is because stupid fucks like you buy into that "Unions destroy our country" line of bullshit from the corporatist factions.

[Monty Burns]

Wouldn't mind their system. Its ironic that Monty Burns is chiming in on this subject though..same with Ronald Reagan I guess.

"Do we really want to become sweden ? "

[jay]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

Exactly right ^^

Exactly wrong and shortsighted. Whats the point of cheap goods if nobody can buy them? Historically our middle and working class have been strongest under strong unions. You can't have a system where manufacturing is exported or where there are no unions and have a strong middle class. It has never existed in history. I'm down to make more and pay for my goods than make nothing and end up on the streets, despite how cheap goods are.
This is some retarded right wing corporatist bullshit you are spewing right here. "The only way to save the economy is to sacrifice the middle class for the sake of helping the elites!" That's stupid, and I guarantee that whatever you do right now, you will be compensated less and less with the destruction of unions, even if you don't have a union job. But hey, you aren't looking out for your interests, you are looking out for the interests of the super rich ownership class, some odd altruism you have there.

The United States needs an organized manufacturing base if it wants to sustain itself as a powerful nation. It may be hard to figure out how to do it, but a U.S. without unions would be a fucked up place to live. In fact, you can already see it. There is a clear correlation between lowered union membership and stagnant working class wages. Reagan tried your "kill unions to save the economy" tactic and it ruined the lives of working and poor people. That route has been terrible for this country, and it continues to destroy us. And the reason it can is because stupid fucks like you buy into that "Unions destroy our country" line of bullshit from the corporatist factions.

Sounds like someone's looking out for his own cushy government sector union job.

[oyolar]

Gipper, this is kind of unrelated but I'm interested in hearing what you think about Ron Paul. I am not nearly involved in politics enough to know the pros and cons of each person running or each side, but I just know he has pretty polarizing views and people either love him or hate him. Thoughts?

Have you never read any of the other times Ron Paul has been brought up? There's a "Ron Paul" thread that Gip tore into a couple of months back.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

Exactly right ^^

Exactly wrong and shortsighted. Whats the point of cheap goods if nobody can buy them? Historically our middle and working class have been strongest under strong unions. You can't have a system where manufacturing is exported or where there are no unions and have a strong middle class. It has never existed in history. I'm down to make more and pay for my goods than make nothing and end up on the streets, despite how cheap goods are.
This is some retarded right wing corporatist bullshit you are spewing right here. "The only way to save the economy is to sacrifice the middle class for the sake of helping the elites!" That's stupid, and I guarantee that whatever you do right now, you will be compensated less and less with the destruction of unions, even if you don't have a union job. But hey, you aren't looking out for your interests, you are looking out for the interests of the super rich ownership class, some odd altruism you have there.

The United States needs an organized manufacturing base if it wants to sustain itself as a powerful nation. It may be hard to figure out how to do it, but a U.S. without unions would be a fucked up place to live. In fact, you can already see it. There is a clear correlation between lowered union membership and stagnant working class wages. Reagan tried your "kill unions to save the economy" tactic and it ruined the lives of working and poor people. That route has been terrible for this country, and it continues to destroy us. And the reason it can is because stupid fucks like you buy into that "Unions destroy our country" line of bullshit from the corporatist factions.

Sounds like someone's looking out for his own cushy government sector union job.

Oh yeah, being a teacher is so cushy, and not something that is necessary at all 
I wan't really talking about that though, I was talking about the manufacturing sector. Some day you'll look into what I am talking about instead of mindlessly parroting shallow talking points at the wrong points in conversations.

[codithou]

Gipper, this is kind of unrelated but I'm interested in hearing what you think about Ron Paul. I am not nearly involved in politics enough to know the pros and cons of each person running or each side, but I just know he has pretty polarizing views and people either love him or hate him. Thoughts?

Have you never read any of the other times Ron Paul has been brought up? There's a "Ron Paul" thread that Gip tore into a couple of months back.

I actually didn't search for anything before I posted (mistake, I know) but I'll probably do that now.

[weedpop]

Sounds like someone's looking out for his own cushy government sector union job.

Ya, look at this greedy fucker wanting to be paid a living wage. Job security is for pussies, we should just contract out the education of our children to the lowest bidder, it can't fail!

[sprayTAN101]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

Exactly right ^^

Exactly wrong and shortsighted. Whats the point of cheap goods if nobody can buy them? Historically our middle and working class have been strongest under strong unions. You can't have a system where manufacturing is exported or where there are no unions and have a strong middle class. It has never existed in history. I'm down to make more and pay for my goods than make nothing and end up on the streets, despite how cheap goods are.
This is some retarded right wing corporatist bullshit you are spewing right here. "The only way to save the economy is to sacrifice the middle class for the sake of helping the elites!" That's stupid, and I guarantee that whatever you do right now, you will be compensated less and less with the destruction of unions, even if you don't have a union job. But hey, you aren't looking out for your interests, you are looking out for the interests of the super rich ownership class, some odd altruism you have there.

The United States needs an organized manufacturing base if it wants to sustain itself as a powerful nation. It may be hard to figure out how to do it, but a U.S. without unions would be a fucked up place to live. In fact, you can already see it. There is a clear correlation between lowered union membership and stagnant working class wages. Reagan tried your "kill unions to save the economy" tactic and it ruined the lives of working and poor people. That route has been terrible for this country, and it continues to destroy us. And the reason it can is because stupid fucks like you buy into that "Unions destroy our country" line of bullshit from the corporatist factions.

Sounds like someone's looking out for his own cushy government sector union job.

Oh yeah, being a teacher is so cushy, and not something that is necessary at all 
I wan't really talking about that though, I was talking about the manufacturing sector. Some day you'll look into what I am talking about instead of mindlessly parroting shallow talking points at the wrong points in conversations.

First of all: fuck you. quit being so damn judgmental. you have no idea 'stupid fucks like me' do or do not buy into. even though this is the internet, act your age and tone down your rhetoric.

Second: Americas was at a world leading manufacturer for years, especially the car industry had spawned strong unions and auto workers seemed to be living the american dream, yes. But, they would have not been able to if it was not for the american car industry and market being vastly superior to any foreign competitor.

Look to other countries. Im norwegian living in the uk. an average norwegian salary is $75 000 and the system is based around very strong unions and a highly regulated private sector. Accordingly, close to no consumer products can be made in norway and exported. We mainly export technical products for high-tech industries or high-end consumer products. We could never export a product like a car, because it would be completely priced out of the market AND countries like germany would probably still make better cars than us.

my point is not to abolish unions, it is to warn you about about how strong will affect your export and domestic industry. the moment we started importing consumer products from low-cost countries, we played our selves out of consumer product game, without resorting heavy subsidies or drastically increased import taxes.

[chockfullofthat]

Seems to me that the presidential candidates are not going to make a huge difference no matter what they say or mean. Radical ideas get shot down in by congressmen and their respective lobbyists.

with that said, strong unions are not an ideal thing. the US realize that their era as a major manufacturer has passed. Strong unions have a tendency to make production of consumer goods too expensive compared to low cost countries. Seems like the current system is too focused on restoring america's position as a manufacturer rather than exploring alternatives.

Exactly right ^^

Exactly wrong and shortsighted. Whats the point of cheap goods if nobody can buy them? Historically our middle and working class have been strongest under strong unions. You can't have a system where manufacturing is exported or where there are no unions and have a strong middle class. It has never existed in history. I'm down to make more and pay for my goods than make nothing and end up on the streets, despite how cheap goods are.
This is some retarded right wing corporatist bullshit you are spewing right here. "The only way to save the economy is to sacrifice the middle class for the sake of helping the elites!" That's stupid, and I guarantee that whatever you do right now, you will be compensated less and less with the destruction of unions, even if you don't have a union job. But hey, you aren't looking out for your interests, you are looking out for the interests of the super rich ownership class, some odd altruism you have there.

The United States needs an organized manufacturing base if it wants to sustain itself as a powerful nation. It may be hard to figure out how to do it, but a U.S. without unions would be a fucked up place to live. In fact, you can already see it. There is a clear correlation between lowered union membership and stagnant working class wages. Reagan tried your "kill unions to save the economy" tactic and it ruined the lives of working and poor people. That route has been terrible for this country, and it continues to destroy us. And the reason it can is because stupid fucks like you buy into that "Unions destroy our country" line of bullshit from the corporatist factions.

Near-slave labor.  These people are getting paid to work, they are building an economic foundation for their countries, and they are much more often than not very thankful for their steady paycheck.  It doesn't matter to you what the price of a T-shirt or TV is anyway because you don't buy things. 

[Citizen on Patron]

Ok first of all no offense to any mexicans out there but... YOU TOOK MEH JOB!!

I think you mean Chinese people. If you think we have a healthy manufacturing base, but its filled with too many undocumented immigrants, you have been fooled. Cheap slave labor abroad is what killed our manufacturing sector.

Even though I deleted the second part of what you wrote I agree. You can't have an entire country of management and financial backers. Its not diverse enough.

Obviously you didn't get the reference... but that's fine. I'm aware of the jobs over seas that is considered "Slave Labor", but the more major problem is the people coming into our country and going to school then leaving and going back to their country while we still pay them. Everyone should know that, it's basic knowledge. Our country is based on running stuff with no education, or no "required" education rather. There are more people working at a McDonald's or some form of restraunt then there are business men that went to school and got a "High End Job." Now all these people that say "Well all the immagrants work the jobs you don't want to work" are nothing short from being total morons. Now if your second sentence there was pertaining to me then you might want to re-read my comment.

[sven thorkel]

Wouldn't mind their system. Its ironic that Monty Burns is chiming in on this subject though..same with Ronald Reagan I guess.

i don't think this would work for the USA. it seems as though democratic socialism works well for centralized countries with small populations that traditionally have had a strong educated middle class, not a widespread nation with a huge population and a continually eroding middle class

The United States needs an organized manufacturing base if it wants to sustain itself as a powerful nation. It may be hard to figure out

unionized tech start-ups that manufacture smart phone apps? the united states last hail mary

[skate_bored]

i dont know if this fits here, but it kind of does and i have nowhere else to rant/hear your thoughts.

Unemployment. Unemployment is bullshit! Okay, not 100%, but a lot of the time. I am 25 and know numerous people who have been on unemployment for almost 2 years! These people don't need 2 years to find a job! I totally understand the need for unemployment, and it should vary based on the person (for example, my 65 year old Grandmother deserves her unemployment because she is a. OLD and cant get hired, and b. paid into the system for 45 years, she kinda earned it). But, when anyone gets fired now they pretty much have no motivation to get a job. Give em 3 months. If they cant find a job they feel is suitable then they can go get a job at fucking McDonalds or doing construction and work their way up the ladder to their success. I feel like people have this ego that prevents them from getting a these certain types of jobs, not that they can't actually find work. Its kind of annoying and I wanted to rant so thats all.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

^ For several years now the number of unemployed people in the U.S. has vastly outnumbered the number of jobs available. Traditionally, you get 6 months on unemployment before the faucet gets turned off, but there have been several extensions added to help deal with the weak economy. There are supposed to be guards to make sure people are still looking for work, you are supposed to meet with an EDD agent like weekly or something to show them the progress you have tried to make finding a job, or you get cut off. The joke is that a lot of people work harder trying to figure out scams to stay on unemployment than they would if they just bucked up and got a job. Unfortunately though, our current circumstances require larger actions so that those unemployed people don't end up on the streets robbing people who actually do have a job. Seriously, that's why programs like that started, street urchins were robbing people constantly for food money back in the day.

Your grandmother doesn't get unemployment, she gets social security. I think everybody would agree with you that it is far different

Spraytan- screwing over workers is not the solution. My comment was actually more directed to the post directly above referencing the idea that my cushy government union job (I work at a charter anyway....) had anything to do with the conversation. You have a valid point, though I disagree with it. The U.S. needs to do more to protect its manufacturing base without lowering the standard of living. I think the argument that we need to de-unionize and force workers to do more and get compensated less is a defeatist attitude. I think there are a lot of things we need to work to do to revive it before turning that direction.
Did I already post that recent Chomsky article here? Its interesting, because its him actually writing about a solution for once, instead of just complaining about the problem:
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/08/chomsky_jobs_arent_coming_back/singleton/
He basically thinks collective ownership of the means of production by workers within individual businesses and industries could help maintain manufacturing here, as a vast majority of owners of a company wouldn't choose to fire themselves to add profit margins to the company. I don't think it would work in everything, but I think there are valid arguments in that approach before allowing for the middle class to just die, and without strong manufacturing it will. In the end, its hard to say what the solution is, but we need to work to find one.