Hey "Skate Troll", let me ask you something.

Have you ever been affected by the armed forces? Ever had that feeling where you know your dad is missing out on your childhood, but he is doing it to protect you? Have you ever experienced the death of a close family member/friend, only to find some-one over the internet saying they have "no glory, pride or justice". I just don't understand how you can criticise the very people protecting you and your way of life.

I suppose that is a good point there. I kind of just got carried away when i saw that.

I just disagree with the whole idea that soldiers should be discrminated.

I work at a small charter school now (let's not get into the political issues of the charter system, I can probably list more than you can, not sure if y'all have noticed, but community school districts are cutting new teachers, and only hiring teachers at schools that have been cut elsewhere, working for one is nearly impossible) but used to work in a big public school. At that school they had recruiters crawling all over the place, and you described those scumbags perfectly. They get into all this buddy-buddy bullshit with the students and play these fucked up games with their heads. They are EVERYWHERE too. The fucked up thing is the school I am talking about was in the middle of the city, and entirely populated by people of color, where most were in severe poverty. My high school was demographically very different, and there would be like one guy coming in once a month, and even though we weren't at war at the time,  I bet there is a far greater investment into the innercity still, its so fucked up and predatory. Then the government fucks innercity schools more while pumping up military recruitment, it makes my fucking blood boil. I want to scream at those fucking assholes whenever they are anywhere near one of my students.

Oh, and the school I work at now is deep into gang territory, I know the recruitment methods of the local gangs too, their methods and rationalizations for joining are almost identical, which is hardly a surprise. Its interesting in that position, morally, you either can oppose war and gangs, or you can support war and gangs, but you can't support one without at least justifying the existence of the other.

The police actually play an internal role though. I'm not saying I think police policy at present is acceptable, but gangs and armies both function off of this idea that it is their duty to go out and control and patrol areas, usually for somebody else's interests, based on thin rationalizations at best, while killing people with pretty much identical mindsets as them but a few cultural or social differences with a lot of words like pride, honor, and respect flying around without much real meaning. There's no real honor in either though once you step back from the brainwashing that occurs with both from young ages....

G.I. JOE: A Real American Hero Intros 1983-1987

Not getting on either side, but your posts have reminded me of one of the major details that, sociologically speaking, define a government: the legitimate use of violence.

^I don't know why you even bother talking to Gipper, he obviously thinks very little of you. 


"Oh, and joining an imperial army for money or benefits isn't noble, it just means that if somebody pays you enough, you'll become a killer.
If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game."

"In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort."

"If you join the armed forces, you are opening yourself up to being a killer of random people, this is not a moral position EVER. You need the money? Get a fucking job like the rest of us."

Personally, i was a conscript for 11 months in an infantry battalion and later was at the military forces HQ. Since conscription means mandatory military service and the only way you can "get out of it", is by faking your physical or mental health. And alot of young healthy men do that. Approximately 2/3 of all of the recruits dont have to serve our country. I was not fond of the idea of abandoning my life for 8 or 11 months (junior NCO's, medics, logistics etc serve 11 months. 8 months are for regular troops/privates). But i didnt want to damage my personal honour, since military service is an honorable thing in my country. So i thought, if i have to go, i go.

Being 22 at the time and attending an university, i had better oportunities to become a specialist or a squad leader. And that's what i wanted. If i had to go, i atleast wanted to make the most of it. So i got enlisted for 11 months and my service would start in the middle of the summer at an infantry battalion. The battalion had five companies: infantry, mortar battery, espionage, mobile HQ and that company, that supplies food, fuel and ammo (dont know the name in english). Anyway, i arrived to the battalion and all of the new recruits got escorted to the auditorium. We had to fill some papers about ourselves and our preferable company. I didnt know shit about the army, so i just went with "infantry", thinking its probably the easiest. Obviously, it was not.

The first 3 months was boot camp. You couldnt get out of the battalion, you could use your phone only during your free time (which was schedueled a hour and a half per day, if we even had free time), and had to endure massive amounts of physical and mental exercise. Discipline was strict and there was no fucking around. I think the shittiest thing during boot camp was the 3-cigarettes-per-day rule. It was stressful enough and you couldnt have a ciggy, if you wanted? The rule only applied when we were at the battalion. After 3 weeks of boot camp, we finally had forrest training camps. And for a month straight! It sounds bad, but it was more interesting in the forrest, than in a classroom. And you could have more cigarettes, if you werent caught by the sergeants or officers.



Typical tent and just some chillin'

After the intensive and enduring 3 month infantry basic training, we almost saw the bright white light: our chance to have a little 10 day vacation at home. Before thought, we had to finish our exams (both theoretical and practical) and the peregrination (basically a long walk with all of your equipment). The peregrination wasnt that hard: about 60km (37miles) and full gear with the automatic weapon weighed about 40-45 kg-s (95lbs). If i remember correctly, we did it under 24 hours, since we had the opportunity to camp for the night.



We wanted to make a shortcut by walking on the railroad. Wasnt a really good idea at all..

During boot camp i was fortunite enought to apply for a service job at the Defence Forces HQ as a videoreporter. Due to my background (i film and shoot photos) i was sure to get the job. It took a while. And since it took a while, i began mastering the basics and specialities of an infantry squad leader. The course lasted 3 months and the difference between boot camp was, that it was alot harder, required more thinking, physical strength and finally had the opportunity to acquire weekend passes. Weekend passes are "tickets" that have the power to release you from the battalion from friday to sunday evening. If you didnt have any problems and did your tasks well, there wasnt a reason to hold you in the barracks for the weekend. Now it kind of felt like a job. Worked/trained/learned from 8-5, had more free time in the evenings and could go home during the weekends.

Since squad leaders are not privates, that meant the course wasnt just to learn how to be a leader, medic, logistic etc. You actually learned how to be a junior NCO. At the end of the course you could get the junior-sergeants rank, which is actually corporal in the US Army ranks. Basically it was an E-4 rank. Actually, the confusions starts before, since we dont have a private first class rank.

So in reality:

Estonian Defence Forces: Private -> Corporal -> Junior Sergeant -> Sergeant
US Army: Private -> Private First Class -> Corporal -> Sergeant

Due to the lack of man power in our reserves and a necessity to fill the junior NCO quota, we have the odd rank of junior sergeant.

Anyway, during the junior NCO course, we were in outdoor camps for 2 months straight (not counting the weekends). It was already October-November and it wasnt as pleasant of an experience if you want to compare it to the summer camps. I remember, that one week we had a camp, where we couldnt use tents and had to sleep in our sleeping bags under the stars. Well, actually we had this raincoat thingy and it had the ability to provide as a "cover", or act as a tent. It was during november and all week long it rained. Seriously. After the second or third day, my sleeping bag and most of my clothes were wet. It was cold and fucking depressing. But an experience to remember.



Ratios.



Smoking was everyones favourite activity

Like boot camp, the junior NCO course had exams and the final peregrination, which was during December at the mountanious terrain of southern Estonia. It was about 120km (75 miles) and like before, with full equipment. It lasted about 60 hours. We had the opportunity to sleep during night, but that didnt quite play out right. First night we got a nice 5 hours sleep, but the second night we slept only for an hour, since we arrived at camp in 7am and had to leave at 8. Slippery roads, few checkpoints and walking in snow, which was up to your knees. Not an easy task. Anyway, we finished it, got our ranks and left for the barracks. Had a nice 2+ week vacation after that.



Resting.

In january i finally was signed to the HQ-s, and started working as a combat reporter. We had our priviliges. Standard working time at the office, from 9-5, and once or twice a week made a video about some exercise or some other activity. That meant we had to travel to different places and it was really interesting to see how other military branches worked, since my knowledge was limited strictly to the infantry.

In May, a month before the reserve, we have a really big training exercise, where every conscript from that year attends. Basically every battalion in Estonia is attending this event to practice their co-operation skills. It lasted for 3 weeks and man, was that amazing!

In the beginning of June, we finally were sent to reserve. Due to hard work an loiality, i made sergeant and couldnt have been happier! Conscription was over and it felt good! It was really weird for a week, thinking i can do now whatever the hell i want. I liked serving in the military. It didnt make me a meathead or a killing machine. We were always thought, that there is no use of a stupid soldier. A soldier has to be smart. I can now make better decisions while under stress, im polite, i have principals and so forth. All around im a better person, thanks to conscription.



The story was quite long, but i didnt even get into the details of our training and other funny shit, that was going on. I hope you enjoy the slight overview of my service!

Well, I can't say I disagree with you at all.  But to be honest, your problems don't lie with the military then.  They lie with the government.  The government decides where the military goes.  Yeah, yeah, I am sure there is always some little group of operatives out there planning to take out any leader that does things that are counter-intuitive to our "best interests," but that is significantly different from a major campaign.  Outside of training, deciding how it's budget is formed and advising the President, the military is just another arm of the government.

My number one reason for getting out (next week!) is that I don't like working for the biggest CORPORATION in the country.  That's how I view it.

Funny you should say that.  Next month we'll be in Italy!  She's never been out of the country, so we're pretty excited.  Rome, Venice and Cinque Terre.

Funny you should call her Mrs. Hate.  I have a friend who calls her that and he also calls my mom, "Mama Hate" to her face.

Ok, you view me as a feeble-minded murderer without morals and is susceptible to brainwash.  I hope I get a movie deal out of this.

Nice story Ige, i can relate to alot of stuff you said there.
Service is mendatory where i live aswell, spent 3 years as a combat medic and i'm glad its behind me!
Also, alot of the training you went through sounds similar to what we have here, even some of the gear is the same.
tons of experiences and stories to tell, when i look back it was an amazing time but as i went through it i wasnt having too much fun.

dude, maybe i'm wrong, but you seem to miss a point. soldiers make the choice to do what soldiers do. becoming a solider is a choice that doesn't have to be made. preachers preach, they're doing what preachers do. musicians play, doing what musicians do.

 

Gipper has said nothing about national defense. The current military has little, if nothing to do with national defense. A better alternative would be to not attack other nations. How can this change? Can we, the citizens, change this through voting? I don't have to come to anyone's defense, especially Gipper, but the dude works in a fucking war zone. Just because it's not one that takes up a fat stack of the national budget doesn't make any less harmful and violent.

gipper, what's your opinion of soldiers who would work in a purely defensive army? they would also be involved in the same kinds of activites that you are calling out as dispicable.



i'm not missing that point, i think it's a silly point. a soldiers role is not to pick the mission, it's to execute the mission. i understand and can see how our long record of imperialism causes people to question why someone would want to be involved with that kind of thing but that doesn't change the things our military has done and will do that don't fit that bill. are you guys forgetting that seals saved people from pirates recently, killed bin laden, etc... pretty sure i saw a lot of military vehicles involved in katrina and you know if someone does attack us they would be the same people that would come to our rescue.

it feels to me that you are missing the point that being the richest nation in the world means we have to have a military and that the soldiers don't pick what the military does.

i'm well aware that the US is the richest nation in the world and I'm further aware of how it came to be so wealthy. Fucking empire, man.
Soldiers, in the US, choose to join. I wish I still had a copy of the Navy contract(s) to quote what I agreed to in verbatim. I agreed to follow the orders of the commander in chief. To support the US in all actions and causes. Now, you see, I know full well that those causes are most often far from just, certainly illegal, and are set in motion to protect corporate interests, not to promote human life and well being.

So again, a solider chooses to enlist and in doing so agrees to execute any mission, regardless of validity, just or unjust nature, etc.

Seals saved people from pirates and killed bin Laden. cool. I don't give a fuck. bin Laden is a figure head, an image (that to, at one time, the US government gave a lot of monetary and military support). These aren't humanitarian missions, man.

Damn right the military was involved in Katrina. In more ways than one; instituting martial law, some reconstruction too. Either way, the National Guard is supposed to respond to emergencies such as Katrina as an act of Homeland Defense. Same with the Coasties.

What are the things our military has done that are worth mentioning?