Wagner Group Coup

[S.]

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bumping this to save people the time of finding it when everyone decides to cheerlead american intervention in west africa next week

[close]

Personally Im betting on my country (france) trying to salvage its neocolonial empire and uranium mines by sending in the Rafales 2011 Libya style.

this thread also reminds me why I stopped discussing anything politics on this website, acknowledging reality and being well learned in history makes you a paid russian putinist tankie shill, somehow, and nuance is seen as unacceptable. I also remember my rep took ages to recover from the ukraine invasion thread because turbo libs were mad I pointed out this was decades in the making lol (shoutout to the guy who apparently thought history only began in the year 2000 and any prior event or materialistic condition has no influence on the present  )
But no worrkes Im sure the next Ukraine war thread six months from now, will see people saying Ukraine will win in two weeks again and that Russia is about to collapse.

New guy, please continue to speak your mind and realize that reputation is an illusion and some of the worst posters have great reps and and some of the best have negative ones.

Nuance is exactly what is needed in this discussion about the war. The problem with online discussions is that nuanced statements aren’t going to get you much attention or replies so people will post “controversial takes“ instead.

My attempt at a nuanced take is this: Russia is ultimately to blame for the war. They resorted to a violent invasion in this ongoing geopolitical conflict over influence in the Ukraine. There are nazis fighting on both sides. Wagner was started by a neo Nazi and the Azov regime is very real and has become an official part of the Ukrainian military. Once a conflict escalates into a war “civilian“ values like truth, human rights and civil law go out of the window. Russian war crimes are facts. You can be sure Ukrainian soldiers also commit atrocities and human rights violations on a daily basis, but you are not going to hear about it in the west, because the current Ukrainian government is “on our side“, I.e. extends our sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. We also know from past wars that once a conflict turns into a war it is always unstable and has a logic of its own, which makes it extremely dangerous not only for the parties involved. In other words this is a fucking tragedy, not a heroic struggle. We should do everything possible to stop the killing not follow to the end some ideal like getting rid of Putin (which I would applaud by the way). Do you think a hypothetical Prigoshin government would be better and bring peace to Ukraine?

[S.]

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check this out: the white house says they're not doing all the stuff you're concerned about, and they have never lied to further military interests overseas, so just chilllll

[close]

There are other sources to corroborate said claims, including major reputable news sources, and video from the Ukrainian military themselves.

This posts reads like a “well everyone lies, so why believe anything at all?”, and falls in line with your usual smarmy contrarian cunty style of posting.

Also, why are you constantly up my ass? It’s kind of creepy and borderline obsessive.

[close]

i believe tons of stuff, the US government being honest (about their goals, intention etc.) definitely isnt one of them

im not going out of my way to be up your ass, you and that other dude just happen to write stuff that's somehow both mindblowingly stupid and mindblowingly self assured a lot more than the normal fun people on here. at least you aren't making creepy posts about women

[close]

I’d rather be self assured than mask my insecure sense of uncertainty with assholish sarcasm. It makes you appear afraid to be forthcoming or stand on the foundation of your own beliefs. Plus it’s fucking obnoxious.

Also, regarding my post about “women”. It was about one woman who I said was cute in a drunk shit post. If it was anyone else they’d have deleted the post, but i left it up to acknowledge how stupid it was. I’m not losing sleep over the fact I made a bad post on a skateboard forum when in an altered state. It’s not that important to me, and I think you should get over it too.

[close]

Phil Ochs said it best:

"In every American community there are varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects, ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally."

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine

But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star

But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
And I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board

I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?

But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

Yes, I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew

But when it comes to times like Korea(Ukraine)
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I attend all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs

And I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

Sure once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns

Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

This 100 percent applies to German liberals as well. Before they were in Government: We need to increase spending on social programs and spend less on defense. They are voted in (a coalition of the neoliberal party FDP, the social democrats and the green party is formed). Russia invades Ukraine. The government increases military spending by a record 100 billion. Today: Sorry we don't have money anymore. We need to cut done on the support of families and we will have to accept the decrease of student support programs and pensions. That's basically right wing politics.

[newguy]

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bumping this to save people the time of finding it when everyone decides to cheerlead american intervention in west africa next week

[close]

Personally Im betting on my country (france) trying to salvage its neocolonial empire and uranium mines by sending in the Rafales 2011 Libya style.

this thread also reminds me why I stopped discussing anything politics on this website, acknowledging reality and being well learned in history makes you a paid russian putinist tankie shill, somehow, and nuance is seen as unacceptable. I also remember my rep took ages to recover from the ukraine invasion thread because turbo libs were mad I pointed out this was decades in the making lol (shoutout to the guy who apparently thought history only began in the year 2000 and any prior event or materialistic condition has no influence on the present  )
But no worrkes Im sure the next Ukraine war thread six months from now, will see people saying Ukraine will win in two weeks again and that Russia is about to collapse.

[close]

New guy, please continue to speak your mind and realize that reputation is an illusion and some of the worst posters have great reps and and some of the best have negative ones.

Nuance is exactly what is needed in this discussion about the war. The problem with online discussions is that nuanced statements aren’t going to get you much attention or replies so people will post “controversial takes“ instead.

My attempt at a nuanced take is this: Russia is ultimately to blame for the war. They resorted to a violent invasion in this ongoing geopolitical conflict over influence in the Ukraine. There are nazis fighting on both sides. Wagner was started by a neo Nazi and the Azov regime is very real and has become an official part of the Ukrainian military. Once a conflict escalates into a war “civilian“ values like truth, human rights and civil law go out of the window. Russian war crimes are facts. You can be sure Ukrainian soldiers also commit atrocities and human rights violations on a daily basis, but you are not going to hear about it in the west, because the current Ukrainian government is “on our side“, I.e. extends our sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. We also know from past wars that once a conflict turns into a war it is always unstable and has a logic of its own, which makes it extremely dangerous not only for the parties involved. In other words this is a fucking tragedy, not a heroic struggle. We should do everything possible to stop the killing not follow to the end some ideal like getting rid of Putin (which I would applaud by the way). Do you think a hypothetical Prigoshin government would be better and bring peace to Ukraine?

Oh believe me, i know this website has a very strong hivemind, and if a powerposter ridicules your post with a witty comment about your intelligence, sexual life or appearance their little butt budies pile up on you for pages and pages. I remember when RBG died there was a thread honoring her and people pointing out how shitty she was were virtually bullied off the topic by angry libs.

And as much as I detest Putin (hes behind a long list of communist assasinations in Transnitria for starters), Prigoshin has zero political backing/support to coup Putin. I suspect in the very unlikely scenario where Putin is at risk, China would step in to help. Enemy of my friend is my friend etc etc.

[BALARGUE]

bumping this to save people the time of finding it when everyone decides to cheerlead american intervention in west africa next week

it would be the same topic again: should we let Putin go further (in this case Africa)?

@IusedToSkateMore
Honest questions:
what do you think will happen if we don't help Ukraine ?
are you fine with Russia expanding (and do you acknowledge how they are doing it) ?

You may have arguments on why we should not help them (i'm pretty sure we can't agree on that) but tell me how's the world if we let him go on for Ukraine and a bunch of countries in Africa after Georgia and Crimea ?


S.

it's definitely sad for those in need but Germany is probably now suffering the consequences of being enslaved to russian gas (which was a mistake in the first place). And it has heavy economic repercussions. War in Ukraine helped them realize (slowly) that Europe's not safe with such a neighbour  (hence the need for an army).

You talk about Europe extending its sphere of influence. What if it's the other way around ? Russia trying to regain what USSR lost ? It seems most ex USSR countries have enough of the russian mafia system / dictatorship. Sure Ukraine is a bumper country but people in these countries do not want russian influence anymore and strive for sovereignty and Putin hates it. It makes sense to assist them reach independance from Russia.

The end goal is to stop Russia from threatening its neighbours and democracies around the world.

[6ix9ine]

Why do Russians love war-rape so much? More so than any other country...

[S.]

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bumping this to save people the time of finding it when everyone decides to cheerlead american intervention in west africa next week

[close]

it would be the same topic again: should we let Putin go further (in this case Africa)?

@IusedToSkateMore
Honest questions:
what do you think will happen if we don't help Ukraine ?
are you fine with Russia expanding (and do you acknowledge how they are doing it) ?

You may have arguments on why we should not help them (i'm pretty sure we can't agree on that) but tell me how's the world if we let him go on for Ukraine and a bunch of countries in Africa after Georgia and Crimea ?


S.

it's definitely sad for those in need but Germany is probably now suffering the consequences of being enslaved to russian gas (which was a mistake in the first place). And it has heavy economic repercussions. War in Ukraine helped them realize (slowly) that Europe's not safe with such a neighbour  (hence the need for an army).

You talk about Europe extending its sphere of influence. What if it's the other way around ? Russia trying to regain what USSR lost ? It seems most ex USSR countries have enough of the russian mafia system / dictatorship. Sure Ukraine is a bumper country but people in these countries do not want russian influence anymore and strive for sovereignty and Putin hates it. It makes sense to assist them reach independance from Russia.

The end goal is to stop Russia from threatening its neighbours and democracies around the world.

Yes, it has turned out to be a mistake to be dependent on Russian gas. The reasoning at the time was that it was better to somewhat cooperate with Russia and thereby maybe have influence on Russia in non violent ways. Sort of:  „if we have common economic interests maybe it will be easier to get along in power politics since there would have been costs for both sides if there was a conflict“. Turns out geopolitical goals trump economic goals for Putin. This was helped by either the US or Ukraine bombing the main oil pipeline from Russia to Germany (or Russia, but they had the least to gain from this).

About the sphere of influence: it is both. The democratically elected government before the orange revolution was pro-Russian. Both US/Europe and Russia have tried to get the country on their side for decades.
And look, I largely agree with you here, what I am trying to say is NATO would have done exactly nothing had they not also had geopolitical interests of their own. They did very little against Russian aggressions in Syria, Georgia and the Chechnian Republic so your narrative isn‘t wrong IMO, but it is incomplete.

[brycickle]

This will not stand, this aggression against Kuwait

Did I pee on your rug, sir?

[Mark Renton]

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This will not stand, this aggression against Kuwait

[close]

Did I pee on your rug, sir?

<3

[manysnakes]

Couldn’t pay me enough money to get on a plane with this guy and fly it over Russia, but here we are.

[jakeumms]

Couldn’t pay me enough money to get on a plane with this guy and fly it over Russia, but here we are.

That was among my first thoughts too. Like he's on it hell naw

[KoRnholio8]

this was probably the best/quickest death he could get at this point

[Síota]

I wonder who else was on the plane.

[BALARGUE]

Russia’s federal air transport agency Rosaviatsia published the names of seven passengers — including Prigozhin and Wagner group commander Dmitry Utkin — and three crew members it said died in Wednesday’s crash.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/23/private-plane-crashes-in-russia-with-wagner-group-chief-on-board

I'm glad that Utkin is dead too. One less nazi

edit: passengers
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_l%27avion_d%27Evgueni_Prigojine_et_de_Dmitri_Outkine

[TheLurper]

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Russia’s federal air transport agency Rosaviatsia published the names of seven passengers — including Prigozhin and Wagner group commander Dmitry Utkin — and three crew members it said died in Wednesday’s crash.

[close]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/23/private-plane-crashes-in-russia-with-wagner-group-chief-on-board

I'm glad that Utkin is dead too. One less nazi

edit: passengers
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_l%27avion_d%27Evgueni_Prigojine_et_de_Dmitri_Outkine

https://news.sky.com/story/who-else-was-on-the-russian-private-jet-that-crashed-with-wagner-chief-prigozhin-on-board-12946327

[IUTSM]

https://tomdispatch.com/living-on-a-war-planet/

Really well out together piece concerned with the present and some history regarding what’s going on between the US, NATO, Ukraine, and Russia.

[addie pray]

our civilzation will live and die by oil. mark my words.

[IUTSM]

our civilzation will live and die by oil. mark my words.

Our civilization is populated by 2 kids of people. Movers and marks, and all the marks think they’re movers, thinking they’re scamming people while they are the ones getting scammed.

Ive marked your words

[Sativa Lung]

i genuinely and sincerely hope im wrong but unfortunately i dont think i am. we'll have the automobile until we have nothing/nowhere. we build and refine technology in an endless loop, we've lost our ability to think of a different world.

You know they make automobiles that don't use oil nowadays, right?

[Sativa Lung]

you know the climatological cost of lithium mining, right?

Significantly less than long term reliance on petrochemicals.

Are you actually suggesting that switching to electric vehicles is somehow worse for the planet, or just trying to deflect because someone pointed out how dumb what you said was?

[addie pray]

look, my whole premise is that we will rely on oil (as a species) til death. i know you only think about oil in cars because you're really stupid, but there's oil in basically fucking everything and it's production and use isnt going away. feel free to dispute that.

[Sativa Lung]

look, my whole premise is that we will rely on oil (as a species) til death. i know you only think about oil in cars because you're really stupid, but there's oil in basically fucking everything and it's production and use isnt going away. feel free to dispute that.

Ok, so what does lithium mining have to do with that?

i genuinely and sincerely hope im wrong but unfortunately i dont think i am. we'll have the automobile until we have nothing/nowhere. we build and refine technology in an endless loop, we've lost our ability to think of a different world.

Weird, it sure looks like you were specifically talking about automobiles. Guess I'm just so stupid I completely imagined that.

[manysnakes]

our civilzation will live and die by oil. mark my words.

Whoa dude this is big if true

[addie pray]

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look, my whole premise is that we will rely on oil (as a species) til death. i know you only think about oil in cars because you're really stupid, but there's oil in basically fucking everything and it's production and use isnt going away. feel free to dispute that.

[close]

Ok, so what does lithium mining have to do with that?

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i genuinely and sincerely hope im wrong but unfortunately i dont think i am. we'll have the automobile until we have nothing/nowhere. we build and refine technology in an endless loop, we've lost our ability to think of a different world.

[close]

Weird, it sure looks like you were specifically talking about automobiles. Guess I'm just so stupid I completely imagined that.

replace automobile with lubrication for industrial production or plastic packaging, the point stands

[BALARGUE]

https://tomdispatch.com/living-on-a-war-planet/

Really well out together piece concerned with the present and some history regarding what’s going on between the US, NATO, Ukraine, and Russia.

that headline "A regular antidote to the mainstream media" doesn't seem like a good choice if you don't want to look like a pro putin, antivax conspirationnist.
it sometimes reads like a biased article and doesn't seem that representative of the current situation (not mentionning the last bit about nordstream sabotage most certainly being a russian operation and the recent victories around Robotyne and in the south of Donetsk's oblast, the counter-offensive is slow but it's steady). Remember how quick and unorganized the russian offensive reached Kyiv and failed.
numerous whataboutism instances
justifying, without actually saying it, that Russia is somewhat a victim and was provoked (which is just fake news). There is only one troublemaker and he is a deranged dictator named Putin period

maybe in the US, the news are making that displacement thing he mentionned. But that's not how it goes here in western Europe. Fires, global warming don't seem hidden by the news about Ukraine.

[Sativa Lung]

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look, my whole premise is that we will rely on oil (as a species) til death. i know you only think about oil in cars because you're really stupid, but there's oil in basically fucking everything and it's production and use isnt going away. feel free to dispute that.

[close]

Ok, so what does lithium mining have to do with that?

Expand Quote

i genuinely and sincerely hope im wrong but unfortunately i dont think i am. we'll have the automobile until we have nothing/nowhere. we build and refine technology in an endless loop, we've lost our ability to think of a different world.

[close]

Weird, it sure looks like you were specifically talking about automobiles. Guess I'm just so stupid I completely imagined that.

[close]

replace automobile with lubrication for industrial production or plastic packaging, the point stands

Ahh ok so it is the deflecting thing.

Man you've really convinced yourself that you have some sort of big brained idea here when in reality it's just something that's patently obvious to most people.

No one is suggesting that we will, or should, never use oil (or plastic) again. The idea is to not have literally everyone use it for literally everything, like we do now. Try to fire up some of those obvious spare neural pathways you have and grasp that.

[jakeumms]

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https://tomdispatch.com/living-on-a-war-planet/

Really well out together piece concerned with the present and some history regarding what’s going on between the US, NATO, Ukraine, and Russia.

[close]

that headline "A regular antidote to the mainstream media" doesn't seem like a good choice if you don't want to look like a pro putin, antivax conspirationnist.
it sometimes reads like a biased article and doesn't seem that representative of the current situation (not mentionning the last bit about nordstream sabotage most certainly being a russian operation and the recent victories around Robotyne and in the south of Donetsk's oblast, the counter-offensive is slow but it's steady). Remember how quick and unorganized the russian offensive reached Kyiv and failed.
numerous whataboutism instances
justifying, without actually saying it, that Russia is somewhat a victim and was provoked (which is just fake news). There is only one troublemaker and he is a deranged dictator named Putin period

maybe in the US, the news are making that displacement thing he mentionned. But that's not how it goes here in western Europe. Fires, global warming don't seem hidden by the news about Ukraine.

No the writer's opening argument that paying attention to Russia's invasion of Ukraine distracts the US from doing anything about climate change is a bad faith argument that I believe is meant to absolve the reader of any kind of guilt. You can tell it's bullshit because they immediately start citing psychological experts. Dropping a phrase like displacement is just borrowing credibility from trusted mental health experts. This is also Jordan Peterson's whole schtick so it's an ABD to boot.

A lot of us in the US care a lot about the fate of Ukraine and simultaneously want to halt and perhaps reverse climate change. We can't do it if we keep electing deniers. We've had at least 2 hurricanes reach landfall this year with another imminent. Yet another section of the country is burned beyond recognition. Articles like this one just proliferate shitty excuses like displacement to keep the right wing grift going. Not a single thing I have said is an inherently liberal idea.

[IUTSM]

Toms dispatch is spewing right wing ideas? That's a story that was published by the Nation. Y’all, mostly the Americans in the room, are frighteningly hilarious with a new sense of left, right, center, liberal, right wing, conservative.

Edit to note the credentials of David Bromwich, the writer y'all are comparing to Jordan Peterson, stating that he can't write or argue, etc.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/david-bromwich/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bromwich

[manysnakes]

Toms dispatch is spewing right wing ideas? That's a story that was published by the Nation. Y’all, mostly the Americans in the room, are frighteningly hilarious with a new sense of left, right, center, liberal, right wing, conservative.

Edit to note the credentials of David Bromwich, the writer y'all are comparing to Jordan Peterson, stating that he can't write or argue, etc.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/david-bromwich/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bromwich

It’s pointless to “debate” with someone who premises their argument on the idea that disbelieving mainstream media makes you a right winger.