everything we do as a society kills animals not just our food production and by participating on any level there is blood on your hands too. somewhere up the chain your reasoning will also be faulty unless you are literally living in the wilderness and sprinkling DDT on you to keep the insects from bitting.
Betaphenylethylalamine post shown an awareness, diplomacy and reasonable approach to the issue that is completely lacking in your response which is idealistic, impractical and kind of dickish.
I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that point, the difference here is that (and this is true in the case of humans too) intentionally killing something/someone vs. accidentally killing something are two totally different concepts/ actions.
Also, do not bring insects or appeals to futility into this debate; the definition of veganism has never stated anything about insects, nor does it state anywhere that there will ever be a way to 100% eliminate cruelty to sentient beings.
I don't mind that Betaphenylethylalamine hunts ttytt, I just said his justifications were poor at best. If you're going to use nature and "ancestors" as reason for an action, then I think you are being intellectually dishonest.
I still eat meat and have a hard time substituting it for plant-based food as I have alot of allergies (I have tried many times and haven't found a solution). However, I'd like to raise a few questions/points for someone who's well read on veganism as I'm not sure I would be vegan even if I could:
Allergies in your case would be a perfectly reasonable justification (unlike "ancestors").
What do you need to avoid though? You know there are soy/ nut free vegans yeah?
- Couldn't you say eating meat is the most natural thing in the world? Look how all of the animal kingdom that require everything meat has to offer feed themselves - they hunt and they eat meat. Avoiding meat makes for going out of your way to get everything the body needs just "to work" and research shows it's often not enough in which they have to turn to modern science and pills/shows to get vitamins etc. It's selfish to say, but we are on the top of the food chain and it all seems sort of natural - although I'm not saying that is what makes it right or okay.
Please avoid appeals to nature fallacies, every carnivore and their mum loves to use them and this is why this whole debate started. Just because something is "natural", does not make it right and/ or good (see someone mentioning polio in the vaccines thread; yes, it's natural as are lots of diseases, doesn't make it good or right though). Sitting on a computer isn't natural, owning a cell phone isn't natural but we still do these things regardless.
Animals eat meat so I should eat meat argument - well animals also do heaps of fucked up things that you WOULDN'T do so please don't use them as a moral compass. Animals also hunt out of necessity; it's not like they can just go to the super market and pick up a plethora of cruelty-free based options. This is also why I have no problem with eskimos hunting and eating animals/ wearing fur, they literally don't have any other options based on their geographical location.
But vitamins argument - Yes, I take b12 supplements, guess what? So do you in the form of your beef getting injected with b12 shots because it's no longer abundant in nature. 2/5 of the American population is also borderline b12 deficient BUT 2/5 of the US isn't vegan. #gofigure
Sup-ing vitamins in this day and age is pretty much unavoidable so let's not make it a strictly vegan issue.
- I know captivated animals suffer in various degrees, but say someone hunts like Betaphenylethylalamine - do animals really care? The only research I've found is that cows, for example, "may be able to feel shyness or fear". Would they be able to tell if their sibling got shot - would they feel bad about it like a human would? Most research I've found show that they probably do not, and that is why the "rape argument" isn't really valid. Most meat-eaters would agree that eating a dog is fucked as they have a deeper sense of emotion and are able to actually think deeper than instant emotions. The meat industry is a whole other point, and that is why I try to get my meat at the best places possible.
meat eaters on cognitive dissonance then no?
Go to a dairy farm and watch the young cows get separated from their mothers, hell just look up some footage of it. Animals communicate, love, exist as communities, crave acceptance, operate as families and do many other things that I don't think we can even fathom at this point in time. But even if they couldn't, does that mean you should inflict cruelty on them based on this fact? This rabbit hole will take you into the whole "name the trait" debate which is basically where you justify the ethics of an action to an animal because of X
X = level of intelligence
"Cows are stupid so it's okay to torture them and steal their children from them while they are still breastfeeding"
Yes, well mentally regular people are also not intelligent when compared to you, so are you going to string them up too now?
X = social contract/ level of emotional involvement
"Well, dogs are mans best friend and I personally have a dog that I love so I could never eat"
I'm from China so fuck your dog because a) I've never met it and b) Dog bacon is amazing
Also I have a pet pig that I have a strong connection too so you shouldn't eat him
X = different species/ biology
"Pigs and humans aren't even the same species so fuck them"
If gorillas came and started eating us tomorrow, personally I would just lie down and let them do so because you know, we're a different species n' shit and that totally justifies their behavior.
edit #643:
Would you kill a fly - have you? Is the fly not a creature? Are you sure of it's level of intelligence or anything else really?
what is it with you guys and bugs? Flys do not have a central nervous system/ cannot feel pain. If science proves me wrong, I'll rethink my stance on them.
Flies feel pain so I'm going to eat steak though is not a logical justification here. You're bordering on the whole "but plants have feelings" discussion which is absolutely a ridiculous argument to have.