Author Topic: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc  (Read 6712 times)

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Nth syd bear

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2018, 07:35:13 PM »
Golfers don't care about stuff like this. They just want to wear tight pants and neon polos and do corny arm pumps when they sink a putt.

Haha the imagery of that comment made me chuckle

So maybe skateboarders are a bit too emotionally invested in this shit than??
Perhaps

DannyDee

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2018, 07:36:09 PM »
Look at the way Crailtap is treating Cory Kennedy versus nike. That says enough right there. If nike could have its way, skateboarding would be turned into a stadium sport like football or baseball where anyone outside of college or the pros would be completely marginalized, and it would be completely controlled by leagues and large corporations. The way skating is now, skaters are still in control of their own destiny.

"Businesses are immoral." Then you could justify pretty much anything they do, right? Why care about workers' rights, or sweatshops, or unions, or fair pay, or anything like that? Looking at things through this lens, it doesn't matter what businesses do because it's in their nature to exploit. I urge you guys to never complain about not getting paid enough or not having insurance or anything like that since that's just business. Yet, you're arguing these companies are better because they treat their riders better. So, on one hand you're arguing that all businesses are immoral, but on the other you're presenting a moral argument that people who skate for nike get treated better. Which is it? Are you saying we shouldn't care about how amoral capitalism is, since that is in its nature, but we should care about which businesses treat their workers better? Sounds like moralizing to me.

Skateboarding is not a business but the businesses that have a hand in the scene have an affect on skateboarding and could turn it into something pretty shitty if you get complacent about it. It's already getting pretty kooky judging by the ethos, stupidity and self-centeredness of a lot of the new influx of skaters who are only doing it because it's the hot shit right now. You guys are also fair weather friends who would turn your backs as quickly as nike will when it starts raining.
When was the last time Nike asked a dude they couldn't live up to their end of a contract on, to stay until his shoe dropped for that season? Crailtap did that to Marc Johnson, then lambasted him on the way out because he didn't turn down an opportunity so they could get one last payoff. When did Nike fuck over two long-time friends by selling a brand without consulting them and not paying them for what they were led to believe they had ownership in (Koston and Guy).

Look, I like that Crailtap is keeping Cory on. But, also don't act like they are equal situations. Cory's Nike salary is much bigger than simple board royalties from Crailtap. Cory violated a contract and simply can't perform his job. Big difference in the obligation to pay someone a 6 figure salary, then simply 2 dollar with each board you sell with their name.

How do you know what his contract situation is with the two companies? How is he breaking his nike contract but not his Crailtap contract? So, are you saying Crailtap doesn't care Cory is breaking his contract with them, or that the Crailtap contract is somehow more lenient? If that's the case, can't Nike also just not care, or maybe write him a new contract? I don't see what's stopping nike from continuing to sell his shoes the way Crailtap is continuing to sell his boards.
Well for one Crailtap doesn't have contracts on boards. But, Nike could, but he simply can't fufill his contract, and I don't blame any company for wanting out of a deal, where a guy can't live up to his contract due to an illegal act committed.

I just find it funny the irony in saying crailtap supports Cory, then ignoring the unreasonable ask of Crailtap to MJ, who was huge in building that brand, then also ignoring how they fucked over Guy and Koston in the sale to Altamont.

Personally, I'd rather work for the company that would fire me for getting convicted of drunk driving and am unable to fulfill my contract. Compared to working for a brand that would constantly reduce my pay without notice, and then when they realized it wasn't going to work, asked me to stay on under the guise of friendship so they can make bank off of inventory that would be dead (which they ordered to be made) but can't pay. Or, a company that led me to believe I had ownership in things, and then when the company was sold, weren't able to pay me out.
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ballintoohard

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2018, 07:40:43 PM »
Every time I see Neen I think it's Fred Armisen filming a Portlandia sketch about Whole Foods.

Francis Xavier

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2018, 07:42:33 PM »
Golfers don't care about stuff like this. They just want to wear tight pants and neon polos and do corny arm pumps when they sink a putt.

Haha the imagery of that comment made me chuckle

So maybe skateboarders are a bit too emotionally invested in this shit than??
Perhaps
Deep emotions for our shared passion losing it's innocence

Nth syd bear

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2018, 07:45:46 PM »
I never really put too much thought into all
That crailtap business they all seemed like they were actually freinds
To a degree and when money and freinds coz a riff most of the time
everyone thinks they are in the right and shit just gets misconstrued
Especially when parties involved are famous and air their problems out publicly 

ChuckRamone

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2018, 07:58:14 PM »
Look at the way Crailtap is treating Cory Kennedy versus nike. That says enough right there. If nike could have its way, skateboarding would be turned into a stadium sport like football or baseball where anyone outside of college or the pros would be completely marginalized, and it would be completely controlled by leagues and large corporations. The way skating is now, skaters are still in control of their own destiny.

"Businesses are immoral." Then you could justify pretty much anything they do, right? Why care about workers' rights, or sweatshops, or unions, or fair pay, or anything like that? Looking at things through this lens, it doesn't matter what businesses do because it's in their nature to exploit. I urge you guys to never complain about not getting paid enough or not having insurance or anything like that since that's just business. Yet, you're arguing these companies are better because they treat their riders better. So, on one hand you're arguing that all businesses are immoral, but on the other you're presenting a moral argument that people who skate for nike get treated better. Which is it? Are you saying we shouldn't care about how amoral capitalism is, since that is in its nature, but we should care about which businesses treat their workers better? Sounds like moralizing to me.

Skateboarding is not a business but the businesses that have a hand in the scene have an affect on skateboarding and could turn it into something pretty shitty if you get complacent about it. It's already getting pretty kooky judging by the ethos, stupidity and self-centeredness of a lot of the new influx of skaters who are only doing it because it's the hot shit right now. You guys are also fair weather friends who would turn your backs as quickly as nike will when it starts raining.
When was the last time Nike asked a dude they couldn't live up to their end of a contract on, to stay until his shoe dropped for that season? Crailtap did that to Marc Johnson, then lambasted him on the way out because he didn't turn down an opportunity so they could get one last payoff. When did Nike fuck over two long-time friends by selling a brand without consulting them and not paying them for what they were led to believe they had ownership in (Koston and Guy).

Look, I like that Crailtap is keeping Cory on. But, also don't act like they are equal situations. Cory's Nike salary is much bigger than simple board royalties from Crailtap. Cory violated a contract and simply can't perform his job. Big difference in the obligation to pay someone a 6 figure salary, then simply 2 dollar with each board you sell with their name.

How do you know what his contract situation is with the two companies? How is he breaking his nike contract but not his Crailtap contract? So, are you saying Crailtap doesn't care Cory is breaking his contract with them, or that the Crailtap contract is somehow more lenient? If that's the case, can't Nike also just not care, or maybe write him a new contract? I don't see what's stopping nike from continuing to sell his shoes the way Crailtap is continuing to sell his boards.
Well for one Crailtap doesn't have contracts on boards. But, Nike could, but he simply can't fufill his contract, and I don't blame any company for wanting out of a deal, where a guy can't live up to his contract due to an illegal act committed.

I just find it funny the irony in saying crailtap supports Cory, then ignoring the unreasonable ask of Crailtap to MJ, who was huge in building that brand, then also ignoring how they fucked over Guy and Koston in the sale to Altamont.

Personally, I'd rather work for the company that would fire me for getting convicted of drunk driving and am unable to fulfill my contract. Compared to working for a brand that would constantly reduce my pay without notice, and then when they realized it wasn't going to work, asked me to stay on under the guise of friendship so they can make bank off of inventory that would be dead (which they ordered to be made) but can't pay. Or, a company that led me to believe I had ownership in things, and then when the company was sold, weren't able to pay me out.

Youíre cherry picking and spinning anecdotes involving these two companies to fit your narrative. It doesnít prove your point but youíd probably be a great politician.

So youíd rather work at Amazon or Google than a smaller and more volatile but plucky business? Not me. Fine with me though if thatís your style. You prefer comfort and safety to the less secure but innovative DIY ethic which birthed skateboarding. Sounds about right. Youíll also find this among 99% of pro athletes these days. Theyíre in it for the money and fame. They donít genuinely love it. Theyíre late adapters, not inventors. Theyíre basics and normies and jocks.

cucktard

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2018, 08:00:46 PM »
nike pulled out of surfing and snowboarding when they weren't profitable because they're a shoe company.
who the fuck wears nikes in the ocean? or in their bindings?

Nike was selling tons of snowboard boots and apparel. By all accounts it was profitable, but not profitable enough
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Nth syd bear

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2018, 08:06:05 PM »
nike pulled out of surfing and snowboarding when they weren't profitable because they're a shoe company.
who the fuck wears nikes in the ocean? or in their bindings?

Nike was selling tons of snowboard boots and apparel. By all accounts it was profitable, but not profitable enough
Mike Sinclair said the exact same thing about dakline

DannyDee

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2018, 08:17:16 PM »
Look at the way Crailtap is treating Cory Kennedy versus nike. That says enough right there. If nike could have its way, skateboarding would be turned into a stadium sport like football or baseball where anyone outside of college or the pros would be completely marginalized, and it would be completely controlled by leagues and large corporations. The way skating is now, skaters are still in control of their own destiny.

"Businesses are immoral." Then you could justify pretty much anything they do, right? Why care about workers' rights, or sweatshops, or unions, or fair pay, or anything like that? Looking at things through this lens, it doesn't matter what businesses do because it's in their nature to exploit. I urge you guys to never complain about not getting paid enough or not having insurance or anything like that since that's just business. Yet, you're arguing these companies are better because they treat their riders better. So, on one hand you're arguing that all businesses are immoral, but on the other you're presenting a moral argument that people who skate for nike get treated better. Which is it? Are you saying we shouldn't care about how amoral capitalism is, since that is in its nature, but we should care about which businesses treat their workers better? Sounds like moralizing to me.

Skateboarding is not a business but the businesses that have a hand in the scene have an affect on skateboarding and could turn it into something pretty shitty if you get complacent about it. It's already getting pretty kooky judging by the ethos, stupidity and self-centeredness of a lot of the new influx of skaters who are only doing it because it's the hot shit right now. You guys are also fair weather friends who would turn your backs as quickly as nike will when it starts raining.
When was the last time Nike asked a dude they couldn't live up to their end of a contract on, to stay until his shoe dropped for that season? Crailtap did that to Marc Johnson, then lambasted him on the way out because he didn't turn down an opportunity so they could get one last payoff. When did Nike fuck over two long-time friends by selling a brand without consulting them and not paying them for what they were led to believe they had ownership in (Koston and Guy).

Look, I like that Crailtap is keeping Cory on. But, also don't act like they are equal situations. Cory's Nike salary is much bigger than simple board royalties from Crailtap. Cory violated a contract and simply can't perform his job. Big difference in the obligation to pay someone a 6 figure salary, then simply 2 dollar with each board you sell with their name.

How do you know what his contract situation is with the two companies? How is he breaking his nike contract but not his Crailtap contract? So, are you saying Crailtap doesn't care Cory is breaking his contract with them, or that the Crailtap contract is somehow more lenient? If that's the case, can't Nike also just not care, or maybe write him a new contract? I don't see what's stopping nike from continuing to sell his shoes the way Crailtap is continuing to sell his boards.
Well for one Crailtap doesn't have contracts on boards. But, Nike could, but he simply can't fufill his contract, and I don't blame any company for wanting out of a deal, where a guy can't live up to his contract due to an illegal act committed.

I just find it funny the irony in saying crailtap supports Cory, then ignoring the unreasonable ask of Crailtap to MJ, who was huge in building that brand, then also ignoring how they fucked over Guy and Koston in the sale to Altamont.

Personally, I'd rather work for the company that would fire me for getting convicted of drunk driving and am unable to fulfill my contract. Compared to working for a brand that would constantly reduce my pay without notice, and then when they realized it wasn't going to work, asked me to stay on under the guise of friendship so they can make bank off of inventory that would be dead (which they ordered to be made) but can't pay. Or, a company that led me to believe I had ownership in things, and then when the company was sold, weren't able to pay me out.

Youíre cherry picking and spinning anecdotes involving these two companies to fit your narrative. It doesnít prove your point but youíd probably be a great politician.

So youíd rather work at Amazon or Google than a smaller and more volatile but plucky business? Not me. Fine with me though if thatís your style. You prefer comfort and safety to the less secure but innovative DIY ethic which birthed skateboarding. Sounds about right. Youíll also find this among 99% of pro athletes these days. Theyíre in it for the money and fame. They donít genuinely love it. Theyíre late adapters, not inventors. Theyíre basics and normies and jocks.
I'm not cherry picking. Those are simply what happened.

Simply put, Crailtap didn't live up to their end of the bargain in either of those situations. Why is that acceptable? Those people have family and kids to provide for. DIY ethic is fine when you are just gambling on yourself, but when it's up to you to provide for your family why should people tolerate being ripped off. You think because they kept Cory on that makes them a better place to be, I'd say ripping off or at least being dishonest to loyal employees is worse.

Also, if you don't own anything, how is it DIY. They are working for someone. It's not like MJ owned part of Crailtap (and if he did I'm unaware), Koston and Guy were supposed to but got ripped off of their shares in a company selling shares off to corporate investors.

And to say someone who rides for Nike over riding for a small board brand and core shoes doesn't love skateboarding is ridiculous, and applying your standards of what you think is right to actually love it. I think most of these kids who are good enough to be pro, put in the work and love it. Riding for corporate shoes gives them the opportunity to travel the world, and gives them greater financial security. Look I have mad respect for the riders on Foundation who have to work side jobs to support their dream, but that doesn't mean anyone who takes a paycheck that allows them to be a pro-skater full time doesn't love it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 08:38:16 PM by DannyDee »
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Nth syd bear

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2018, 08:30:34 PM »
Your last paragraph made perfect sense ...........

PeggyHillsShittySpanish

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2018, 08:37:13 PM »
Every time I see Neen I think it's Fred Armisen filming a Portlandia sketch about Whole Foods.

lol

ManMelt

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2018, 08:39:45 PM »
Dom Travis is the man, and has managed to get almost every sick NYC skater hooked up with plenty of boxes. Plus, he sponsors the entire 917 team, outside of Aiden and Genny, and those dudes rip. Nike also does really sick collabs with Quartersnacks, which is the shit.

ChuckRamone

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2018, 08:44:09 PM »
Look at the way Crailtap is treating Cory Kennedy versus nike. That says enough right there. If nike could have its way, skateboarding would be turned into a stadium sport like football or baseball where anyone outside of college or the pros would be completely marginalized, and it would be completely controlled by leagues and large corporations. The way skating is now, skaters are still in control of their own destiny.

"Businesses are immoral." Then you could justify pretty much anything they do, right? Why care about workers' rights, or sweatshops, or unions, or fair pay, or anything like that? Looking at things through this lens, it doesn't matter what businesses do because it's in their nature to exploit. I urge you guys to never complain about not getting paid enough or not having insurance or anything like that since that's just business. Yet, you're arguing these companies are better because they treat their riders better. So, on one hand you're arguing that all businesses are immoral, but on the other you're presenting a moral argument that people who skate for nike get treated better. Which is it? Are you saying we shouldn't care about how amoral capitalism is, since that is in its nature, but we should care about which businesses treat their workers better? Sounds like moralizing to me.

Skateboarding is not a business but the businesses that have a hand in the scene have an affect on skateboarding and could turn it into something pretty shitty if you get complacent about it. It's already getting pretty kooky judging by the ethos, stupidity and self-centeredness of a lot of the new influx of skaters who are only doing it because it's the hot shit right now. You guys are also fair weather friends who would turn your backs as quickly as nike will when it starts raining.
When was the last time Nike asked a dude they couldn't live up to their end of a contract on, to stay until his shoe dropped for that season? Crailtap did that to Marc Johnson, then lambasted him on the way out because he didn't turn down an opportunity so they could get one last payoff. When did Nike fuck over two long-time friends by selling a brand without consulting them and not paying them for what they were led to believe they had ownership in (Koston and Guy).

Look, I like that Crailtap is keeping Cory on. But, also don't act like they are equal situations. Cory's Nike salary is much bigger than simple board royalties from Crailtap. Cory violated a contract and simply can't perform his job. Big difference in the obligation to pay someone a 6 figure salary, then simply 2 dollar with each board you sell with their name.

How do you know what his contract situation is with the two companies? How is he breaking his nike contract but not his Crailtap contract? So, are you saying Crailtap doesn't care Cory is breaking his contract with them, or that the Crailtap contract is somehow more lenient? If that's the case, can't Nike also just not care, or maybe write him a new contract? I don't see what's stopping nike from continuing to sell his shoes the way Crailtap is continuing to sell his boards.
Well for one Crailtap doesn't have contracts on boards. But, Nike could, but he simply can't fufill his contract, and I don't blame any company for wanting out of a deal, where a guy can't live up to his contract due to an illegal act committed.

I just find it funny the irony in saying crailtap supports Cory, then ignoring the unreasonable ask of Crailtap to MJ, who was huge in building that brand, then also ignoring how they fucked over Guy and Koston in the sale to Altamont.

Personally, I'd rather work for the company that would fire me for getting convicted of drunk driving and am unable to fulfill my contract. Compared to working for a brand that would constantly reduce my pay without notice, and then when they realized it wasn't going to work, asked me to stay on under the guise of friendship so they can make bank off of inventory that would be dead (which they ordered to be made) but can't pay. Or, a company that led me to believe I had ownership in things, and then when the company was sold, weren't able to pay me out.

Youíre cherry picking and spinning anecdotes involving these two companies to fit your narrative. It doesnít prove your point but youíd probably be a great politician.

So youíd rather work at Amazon or Google than a smaller and more volatile but plucky business? Not me. Fine with me though if thatís your style. You prefer comfort and safety to the less secure but innovative DIY ethic which birthed skateboarding. Sounds about right. Youíll also find this among 99% of pro athletes these days. Theyíre in it for the money and fame. They donít genuinely love it. Theyíre late adapters, not inventors. Theyíre basics and normies and jocks.
I'm not cherry picking. Those are simply what happened.

Simply put, Crailtap didn't live up to their end of the bargain in either of those situations. Why is that acceptable? Those people have family and kids to provide for. DIY ethic is fine when you are just gambling on yourself, but when it's up to you to provide for your family why should people tolerate being ripped off. You think because they kept Cory on that makes them a better place to be, I'd say ripping off or at least being dishonest to loyal employees is worse.

Also, if you don't own anything, how is it DIY. They are working for someone. It's not like MJ owned part of Crailtap (and if he did I'm unaware), Koston and Guy were supposed to but got ripped off of their shares in a company selling shares off to corporate investors.

And to say someone who rides for Nike over riding for a small board brand and core shoes doesn't love skateboarding is ridiculous, and applying your standards of what you think is right to actually love it. I think most of these kids who are good enough to be pro, put in the work and loved it. Riding for corporate shoes gives them the opportunity to travel the world and do it, and gives them greater financial security. Look I have mad respect for the riders on Foundation who have to work side jobs to support their dream, but that doesn't mean anyone who takes a paycheck that allows them to be a pro-skater full time doesn't love it.

When were the full business details of the Mariano and Koston fallout from Crail ever fully disclosed? You speak about these contracts and business dealings as if you have firsthand knowledge of the situations but you donít. Nobody outside those immediate circles does. So youíre making a lot of  guesses about what happened.

Are you saying pros didnít make money and tour and support themselves before the big corps. got involved? Because they sure as hell did. Remember Heath retired off the money he made skating. You guys make skateboarding sound like it was a charity case that got bailed out by nike but it wasnít. It was doing just fine. Just because some shady shit happened doesnít mean it was dysfunctional or impoverished. And it sure as hell ainít perfect now. And, yes, a lot of the recent pros wouldnít skate if there werenít getting a lot of attention and fat paychecks for it. Theyíd be working on their chip shots or studying for their real estate exams.

DannyDee

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2018, 08:54:11 PM »
Look at the way Crailtap is treating Cory Kennedy versus nike. That says enough right there. If nike could have its way, skateboarding would be turned into a stadium sport like football or baseball where anyone outside of college or the pros would be completely marginalized, and it would be completely controlled by leagues and large corporations. The way skating is now, skaters are still in control of their own destiny.

"Businesses are immoral." Then you could justify pretty much anything they do, right? Why care about workers' rights, or sweatshops, or unions, or fair pay, or anything like that? Looking at things through this lens, it doesn't matter what businesses do because it's in their nature to exploit. I urge you guys to never complain about not getting paid enough or not having insurance or anything like that since that's just business. Yet, you're arguing these companies are better because they treat their riders better. So, on one hand you're arguing that all businesses are immoral, but on the other you're presenting a moral argument that people who skate for nike get treated better. Which is it? Are you saying we shouldn't care about how amoral capitalism is, since that is in its nature, but we should care about which businesses treat their workers better? Sounds like moralizing to me.

Skateboarding is not a business but the businesses that have a hand in the scene have an affect on skateboarding and could turn it into something pretty shitty if you get complacent about it. It's already getting pretty kooky judging by the ethos, stupidity and self-centeredness of a lot of the new influx of skaters who are only doing it because it's the hot shit right now. You guys are also fair weather friends who would turn your backs as quickly as nike will when it starts raining.
When was the last time Nike asked a dude they couldn't live up to their end of a contract on, to stay until his shoe dropped for that season? Crailtap did that to Marc Johnson, then lambasted him on the way out because he didn't turn down an opportunity so they could get one last payoff. When did Nike fuck over two long-time friends by selling a brand without consulting them and not paying them for what they were led to believe they had ownership in (Koston and Guy).

Look, I like that Crailtap is keeping Cory on. But, also don't act like they are equal situations. Cory's Nike salary is much bigger than simple board royalties from Crailtap. Cory violated a contract and simply can't perform his job. Big difference in the obligation to pay someone a 6 figure salary, then simply 2 dollar with each board you sell with their name.

How do you know what his contract situation is with the two companies? How is he breaking his nike contract but not his Crailtap contract? So, are you saying Crailtap doesn't care Cory is breaking his contract with them, or that the Crailtap contract is somehow more lenient? If that's the case, can't Nike also just not care, or maybe write him a new contract? I don't see what's stopping nike from continuing to sell his shoes the way Crailtap is continuing to sell his boards.
Well for one Crailtap doesn't have contracts on boards. But, Nike could, but he simply can't fufill his contract, and I don't blame any company for wanting out of a deal, where a guy can't live up to his contract due to an illegal act committed.

I just find it funny the irony in saying crailtap supports Cory, then ignoring the unreasonable ask of Crailtap to MJ, who was huge in building that brand, then also ignoring how they fucked over Guy and Koston in the sale to Altamont.

Personally, I'd rather work for the company that would fire me for getting convicted of drunk driving and am unable to fulfill my contract. Compared to working for a brand that would constantly reduce my pay without notice, and then when they realized it wasn't going to work, asked me to stay on under the guise of friendship so they can make bank off of inventory that would be dead (which they ordered to be made) but can't pay. Or, a company that led me to believe I had ownership in things, and then when the company was sold, weren't able to pay me out.

Youíre cherry picking and spinning anecdotes involving these two companies to fit your narrative. It doesnít prove your point but youíd probably be a great politician.

So youíd rather work at Amazon or Google than a smaller and more volatile but plucky business? Not me. Fine with me though if thatís your style. You prefer comfort and safety to the less secure but innovative DIY ethic which birthed skateboarding. Sounds about right. Youíll also find this among 99% of pro athletes these days. Theyíre in it for the money and fame. They donít genuinely love it. Theyíre late adapters, not inventors. Theyíre basics and normies and jocks.
I'm not cherry picking. Those are simply what happened.

Simply put, Crailtap didn't live up to their end of the bargain in either of those situations. Why is that acceptable? Those people have family and kids to provide for. DIY ethic is fine when you are just gambling on yourself, but when it's up to you to provide for your family why should people tolerate being ripped off. You think because they kept Cory on that makes them a better place to be, I'd say ripping off or at least being dishonest to loyal employees is worse.

Also, if you don't own anything, how is it DIY. They are working for someone. It's not like MJ owned part of Crailtap (and if he did I'm unaware), Koston and Guy were supposed to but got ripped off of their shares in a company selling shares off to corporate investors.

And to say someone who rides for Nike over riding for a small board brand and core shoes doesn't love skateboarding is ridiculous, and applying your standards of what you think is right to actually love it. I think most of these kids who are good enough to be pro, put in the work and loved it. Riding for corporate shoes gives them the opportunity to travel the world and do it, and gives them greater financial security. Look I have mad respect for the riders on Foundation who have to work side jobs to support their dream, but that doesn't mean anyone who takes a paycheck that allows them to be a pro-skater full time doesn't love it.

When were the full business details of the Mariano and Koston fallout from Crail ever fully disclosed? You speak about these contracts and business dealings as if you have firsthand knowledge of the situations but you donít. Nobody outside those immediate circles does. So youíre making a lot of  guesses about what happened.

Are you saying pros didnít make money and tour and support themselves before the big corps. got involved? Because they sure as hell did. Remember Heath retired off the money he made skating. You guys make skateboarding sound like it was a charity case that got bailed out by nike but it wasnít. It was doing just fine. Just because some shady shit happened doesnít mean it was dysfunctional or impoverished. And it sure as hell ainít perfect now. And, yes, a lot of the recent pros wouldnít skate if there werenít getting a lot of attention and fat paychecks for it. Theyíd be working on their chip shots or studying for their real estate exams.
Koston talks about in a Route One if things never went wrong with Girl with the takeover, he and Guy never would have left. There is also the whole thing with Podium, which is talked about in his Epicly Later'd. MJ is on record with his side, and Carroll basically says they encouraged MJ to stay, because of what it would do to their last batch of shoes. My point was, you point to Crailtap as the moral company because they kept Cory on, but ignore a bunch of shady shit has also happened with them. Do you really think those guys would just walk away over a small dispute? They must have felt pretty wronged.

Yes, company's were doing big tours long before Nike came along. But, if you really want to see what gave Nike their in, it was that these core-companies you idealized decided to sell to corporations at the expense of local skate shops in the name of greed. So, when Nike came along and offered these brands on exclusives that would not only sell to skaters but hypebeasts it was hard to turn down. Obviously, once Nike got their in, they were not a much better partner. But, let's not idealize companies that helped significantly fuel their growth through selling to Zumiez at the expense of the local shop.
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jakeumms

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2018, 09:06:56 PM »
Who cares?
http://www.tmetz.net/skateboard/PepsiSkateboardBrochure.pdf

I love that there is very little that is safe about the cover of that brochure. Thanks for posting that.

ChuckRamone

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2018, 09:11:24 PM »
Look at the way Crailtap is treating Cory Kennedy versus nike. That says enough right there. If nike could have its way, skateboarding would be turned into a stadium sport like football or baseball where anyone outside of college or the pros would be completely marginalized, and it would be completely controlled by leagues and large corporations. The way skating is now, skaters are still in control of their own destiny.

"Businesses are immoral." Then you could justify pretty much anything they do, right? Why care about workers' rights, or sweatshops, or unions, or fair pay, or anything like that? Looking at things through this lens, it doesn't matter what businesses do because it's in their nature to exploit. I urge you guys to never complain about not getting paid enough or not having insurance or anything like that since that's just business. Yet, you're arguing these companies are better because they treat their riders better. So, on one hand you're arguing that all businesses are immoral, but on the other you're presenting a moral argument that people who skate for nike get treated better. Which is it? Are you saying we shouldn't care about how amoral capitalism is, since that is in its nature, but we should care about which businesses treat their workers better? Sounds like moralizing to me.

Skateboarding is not a business but the businesses that have a hand in the scene have an affect on skateboarding and could turn it into something pretty shitty if you get complacent about it. It's already getting pretty kooky judging by the ethos, stupidity and self-centeredness of a lot of the new influx of skaters who are only doing it because it's the hot shit right now. You guys are also fair weather friends who would turn your backs as quickly as nike will when it starts raining.
When was the last time Nike asked a dude they couldn't live up to their end of a contract on, to stay until his shoe dropped for that season? Crailtap did that to Marc Johnson, then lambasted him on the way out because he didn't turn down an opportunity so they could get one last payoff. When did Nike fuck over two long-time friends by selling a brand without consulting them and not paying them for what they were led to believe they had ownership in (Koston and Guy).

Look, I like that Crailtap is keeping Cory on. But, also don't act like they are equal situations. Cory's Nike salary is much bigger than simple board royalties from Crailtap. Cory violated a contract and simply can't perform his job. Big difference in the obligation to pay someone a 6 figure salary, then simply 2 dollar with each board you sell with their name.

How do you know what his contract situation is with the two companies? How is he breaking his nike contract but not his Crailtap contract? So, are you saying Crailtap doesn't care Cory is breaking his contract with them, or that the Crailtap contract is somehow more lenient? If that's the case, can't Nike also just not care, or maybe write him a new contract? I don't see what's stopping nike from continuing to sell his shoes the way Crailtap is continuing to sell his boards.
Well for one Crailtap doesn't have contracts on boards. But, Nike could, but he simply can't fufill his contract, and I don't blame any company for wanting out of a deal, where a guy can't live up to his contract due to an illegal act committed.

I just find it funny the irony in saying crailtap supports Cory, then ignoring the unreasonable ask of Crailtap to MJ, who was huge in building that brand, then also ignoring how they fucked over Guy and Koston in the sale to Altamont.

Personally, I'd rather work for the company that would fire me for getting convicted of drunk driving and am unable to fulfill my contract. Compared to working for a brand that would constantly reduce my pay without notice, and then when they realized it wasn't going to work, asked me to stay on under the guise of friendship so they can make bank off of inventory that would be dead (which they ordered to be made) but can't pay. Or, a company that led me to believe I had ownership in things, and then when the company was sold, weren't able to pay me out.

Youíre cherry picking and spinning anecdotes involving these two companies to fit your narrative. It doesnít prove your point but youíd probably be a great politician.

So youíd rather work at Amazon or Google than a smaller and more volatile but plucky business? Not me. Fine with me though if thatís your style. You prefer comfort and safety to the less secure but innovative DIY ethic which birthed skateboarding. Sounds about right. Youíll also find this among 99% of pro athletes these days. Theyíre in it for the money and fame. They donít genuinely love it. Theyíre late adapters, not inventors. Theyíre basics and normies and jocks.
I'm not cherry picking. Those are simply what happened.

Simply put, Crailtap didn't live up to their end of the bargain in either of those situations. Why is that acceptable? Those people have family and kids to provide for. DIY ethic is fine when you are just gambling on yourself, but when it's up to you to provide for your family why should people tolerate being ripped off. You think because they kept Cory on that makes them a better place to be, I'd say ripping off or at least being dishonest to loyal employees is worse.

Also, if you don't own anything, how is it DIY. They are working for someone. It's not like MJ owned part of Crailtap (and if he did I'm unaware), Koston and Guy were supposed to but got ripped off of their shares in a company selling shares off to corporate investors.

And to say someone who rides for Nike over riding for a small board brand and core shoes doesn't love skateboarding is ridiculous, and applying your standards of what you think is right to actually love it. I think most of these kids who are good enough to be pro, put in the work and loved it. Riding for corporate shoes gives them the opportunity to travel the world and do it, and gives them greater financial security. Look I have mad respect for the riders on Foundation who have to work side jobs to support their dream, but that doesn't mean anyone who takes a paycheck that allows them to be a pro-skater full time doesn't love it.

When were the full business details of the Mariano and Koston fallout from Crail ever fully disclosed? You speak about these contracts and business dealings as if you have firsthand knowledge of the situations but you donít. Nobody outside those immediate circles does. So youíre making a lot of  guesses about what happened.

Are you saying pros didnít make money and tour and support themselves before the big corps. got involved? Because they sure as hell did. Remember Heath retired off the money he made skating. You guys make skateboarding sound like it was a charity case that got bailed out by nike but it wasnít. It was doing just fine. Just because some shady shit happened doesnít mean it was dysfunctional or impoverished. And it sure as hell ainít perfect now. And, yes, a lot of the recent pros wouldnít skate if there werenít getting a lot of attention and fat paychecks for it. Theyíd be working on their chip shots or studying for their real estate exams.
Koston talks about in a Route One if things never went wrong with Girl with the takeover, he and Guy never would have left. There is also the whole thing with Podium, which is talked about in his Epicly Later'd. MJ is on record with his side, and Carroll basically says they encouraged MJ to stay, because of what it would do to their last batch of shoes. My point was, you point to Crailtap as the moral company because they kept Cory on, but ignore a bunch of shady shit has also happened with them. Do you really think those guys would just walk away over a small dispute? They must have felt pretty wronged.

Yes, company's were doing big tours long before Nike came along. But, if you really want to see what gave Nike their in, it was that these core-companies you idealized decided to sell to corporations at the expense of local skate shops in the name of greed. So, when Nike came along and offered these brands on exclusives that would not only sell to skaters but hypebeasts it was hard to turn down. Obviously, once Nike got their in, they were not a much better partner. But, let's not idealize companies that helped significantly fuel their growth through selling to Zumiez at the expense of the local shop.

Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.

DannyDee

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2018, 09:21:53 PM »
Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.
I do not know every specific detail, but it doesn't sound like they got paid off well at all. How do you explain the MJ situation though. We have both accounts on that one, and in my eyes Crailtap is way more in the wrong than the right there. They had a completely unreasonable ask of MJ and then expected him to hold up that bargain, because they were desperate to unload his shoes but couldn't pay him. I'd say what was asked of MJ is worse than Nike dropping a guy who got a 4 year jail sentence. I grew up on and loved Crailtap videos, and Cory is one of my favorite current skaters, but that doesn't make me oblivious. I don't blame a company for wanting out of selling a guy who just got sentenced to jail for a significant period of times contract, and I don't think a board brand and shoe brand are really all that comparable. I'm curious if we'd see that same loyalty if they had a monthly minimums deal with him on Lakai.

I just don't get why you give companies a pass where riders have been wronged by other skaters, or how companies wronged this community by your standards get a pass. Look, Nike is a corporation and they aren't great. But, I haven't heard of them fucking over anyone who rides them on their contracts. They may have morality clauses that gives them outs, but that is pretty understandable. Do you think guys like Jamie Thomas, Pierre Andrť Senizergues, Tim Gavin, and Rick Howard cared all that much when they were cashing checks from Zumiez at the expense of local shops. No, they only ranted about "core interests" once the corporate giant started fucking over their bottom lines.
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Pigeon

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2018, 09:24:33 PM »
Remember Heath retired off the money he made skating. You guys make skateboarding sound like it was a charity case that got bailed out by nike but it wasnít. It was doing just fine.
Remember that Heath is a legend, so heís not a good example. His dad got him to start investing at a young age, and heís been working since he retired his board. He even delivered pizzas for a brief moment, which shows how good his work ethic is.

Pops is probably the best, or most notable, example of someone getting fucked over by a sportswear company.

Iím really stoked on eS right now because Nike/Adidas used to be my only option for shoes that double up as trainers. Vulc shoes killed my feet, and I got sick of swapping shoes before/after sessions.
i was not vaccinated as a child and i turned out fine.

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2018, 09:27:15 PM »
Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.
I do not know every specific detail, but it doesn't sound like they got paid off well at all. How do you explain the MJ situation though. We have both accounts on that one, and in my eyes Crailtap is way more in the wrong than the right there. They had a completely unreasonable ask of MJ and then expected him to hold up that bargain, because they were desperate to unload his shoes but couldn't pay him. I'd say what was asked of MJ is worse than Nike dropping a guy who got a 4 year jail sentence. I grew up on and loved Crailtap videos, and Cory is one of my favorite current skaters, but that doesn't make me oblivious. I don't blame a company for wanting out of selling a guy who just got sentenced to jail for a significant period of times contract, and I don't think a board brand and shoe brand are really all that comparable. I'm curious if we'd see that same loyalty if they had a monthly minimums deal with him on Lakai.

I just don't get why you give companies a pass where riders have been wronged by other skaters, or how companies wronged this community by your standards get a pass. Look, Nike is a corporation and they aren't great. But, I haven't heard of them fucking over anyone who rides them on their contracts. They may have morality clauses that gives them outs, but that is pretty understandable. Do you think guys like Jamie Thomas, Pierre Andrť Senizergues, Tim Gavin, and Rick Howard cared all that much when they were cashing checks from Zumiez at the expense of local shops. No, they only ranted about "core interests" once the corporate giant started fucking over their bottom lines.
stop making sense there is no need for that round here.... 🤔

ChuckRamone

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2018, 09:41:26 PM »
Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.
I do not know every specific detail, but it doesn't sound like they got paid off well at all. How do you explain the MJ situation though. We have both accounts on that one, and in my eyes Crailtap is way more in the wrong than the right there. They had a completely unreasonable ask of MJ and then expected him to hold up that bargain, because they were desperate to unload his shoes but couldn't pay him. I'd say what was asked of MJ is worse than Nike dropping a guy who got a 4 year jail sentence. I grew up on and loved Crailtap videos, and Cory is one of my favorite current skaters, but that doesn't make me oblivious. I don't blame a company for wanting out of selling a guy who just got sentenced to jail for a significant period of times contract, and I don't think a board brand and shoe brand are really all that comparable. I'm curious if we'd see that same loyalty if they had a monthly minimums deal with him on Lakai.

I just don't get why you give companies a pass where riders have been wronged by other skaters, or how companies wronged this community by your standards get a pass. Look, Nike is a corporation and they aren't great. But, I haven't heard of them fucking over anyone who rides them on their contracts. They may have morality clauses that gives them outs, but that is pretty understandable. Do you think guys like Jamie Thomas, Pierre Andrť Senizergues, Tim Gavin, and Rick Howard cared all that much when they were cashing checks from Zumiez at the expense of local shops. No, they only ranted about "core interests" once the corporate giant started fucking over their bottom lines.

MJ was not imposed upon in any way. He didn't have to go to Adidas immediately. He could've stuck around a bit longer at a company who sponsored him for that long. As for the "core" companies you mentioned, there was no reason for these people to rant about "core interests." (Is that a real quote. Who said it? Why is it in quotes?) The dichotomy didn't even exist until nike and the others entered the picture. You can't rant about something that doesn't exist yet.

On a side note: It's crazy that skateboarders came up with a pejorative - "core" - for their own scene. That's pretty fucked up. But people will do anything to justify selling out, including smear campaigns and treachery and rewriting history.

Atiba Applebum

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2018, 09:44:50 PM »
Three pages already and no ones talking about that Sinclair interview where he compares the touring lifestyle of Nike vs Foundation?

The shelf life of skaterís careers is pretty small.  Iím al for them making what they can for as long as they can.  Many shot themselves in the foot educationally but wonít be able to bounce back post-sports like major league athletes do. 

I grew up wearing eS, emerica, lakais.  They appealed to me when I was a teenager.   Iím 33 now and I wear mostly corporate shoes.   My tastes have changed and Iíd feel goofy at my age wearing the shoes I did when I was 16.   I donít have larger conversations in my head when making my shoe selection, but many of the Nike horror stories I hear donít seem to affect the shops I support in LA.   If anything they seem to treat them quite well, particularly with this last Premier store dunk drop. 

Skateboarders need something to rebel against and corporations are the easiest target.  Iím too old to care unless a company is doing something inhumane and against my personal ethics.

DannyDee

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2018, 09:51:53 PM »
Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.
I do not know every specific detail, but it doesn't sound like they got paid off well at all. How do you explain the MJ situation though. We have both accounts on that one, and in my eyes Crailtap is way more in the wrong than the right there. They had a completely unreasonable ask of MJ and then expected him to hold up that bargain, because they were desperate to unload his shoes but couldn't pay him. I'd say what was asked of MJ is worse than Nike dropping a guy who got a 4 year jail sentence. I grew up on and loved Crailtap videos, and Cory is one of my favorite current skaters, but that doesn't make me oblivious. I don't blame a company for wanting out of selling a guy who just got sentenced to jail for a significant period of times contract, and I don't think a board brand and shoe brand are really all that comparable. I'm curious if we'd see that same loyalty if they had a monthly minimums deal with him on Lakai.

I just don't get why you give companies a pass where riders have been wronged by other skaters, or how companies wronged this community by your standards get a pass. Look, Nike is a corporation and they aren't great. But, I haven't heard of them fucking over anyone who rides them on their contracts. They may have morality clauses that gives them outs, but that is pretty understandable. Do you think guys like Jamie Thomas, Pierre Andrť Senizergues, Tim Gavin, and Rick Howard cared all that much when they were cashing checks from Zumiez at the expense of local shops. No, they only ranted about "core interests" once the corporate giant started fucking over their bottom lines.

MJ was not imposed upon in any way. He didn't have to go to Adidas immediately. He could've stuck around a bit longer at a company who sponsored him for that long. As for the "core" companies you mentioned, there was no reason for these people to rant about "core interests." (Is that a real quote. Who said it? Why is it in quotes?) The dichotomy didn't even exist until nike and the others entered the picture. You can't rant about something that doesn't exist yet.

On a side note: It's crazy that skateboarders came up with a pejorative - "core" - for their own scene. That's pretty fucked up. But people will do anything to justify selling out, including smear campaigns and treachery and rewriting history.
If Lakai isn't paying you, and someone is willing to pay you that week? Who knows when the offer from Adidas would disappear, they may have wanted him for the premier, and then if he turned them down went to the next person on the list. There was a deadline on that video.

These companies, that now cry about big corporations killing them, were helping kill off the DIY or stick to your own community standards you seem to value dearly by selling heavily to corporate accounts with their products. Do you think selling in bulk to mall shops which happened before Nike entered the picture was good? That was fucking over skaters by selling to corporate interests. Nike got into skateshops because shops were feeling the crunch caused by this, and early on Nike offered exclusivity, and was very selective in accounts in regards proximity.
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Bob

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2018, 10:02:17 PM »
Skaters repeatedly said no to Nike, as they were obviously just trying to exploit skatingís image to sell shoes. I can remember 2 separate attempts where Nike tried to break into skateboarding and no one took them seriously. Skating had gone me through hard times, and was suspicious of anybody from the outside.

And once upon a time, people gave a shit about sweatshop labor, Nike had a terrible reputation in the 90ís.

Why is taking corporate money so bad? Because the vast majority of the money is made by shortchanging workers, especially in factories overseas. The ones that actually do the real work and make the shoes. (And this goes for pretty much most large shoe companies, Vans included). 

Your corporate salary is only available because someone else below you is getting ripped off.
Every shoe sold for skateboarding is working with some shady shit overseas. The only company in skateboarding that actually makes a product in the United States is New Balance, who to the best of my knowledge do not make their state line here. Do you honestly think Sole Tech and Lakai work with places that have better reputations than the Nike factories and can produce a cheaper product?

Nike due to what happened to their reputation due to sweatshops actually became much more stringent on who they did business with.

Look, I'm fine with people saying they don't like the idea of shareholders and people like Phil Knight getting rich off of buying NikeSB product. But, don't try to frame it as a morality issue regarding the treatment of third world workers. Hell, fucking Crailtap abandoned a using a company like PS Stix to make cheaper boards, and I'm supposed to trust what they do with Lakai? Dwindle under Globe sent their production to China too.

You want to bitch about morality in using outsource Labor, go buy a pair of these New Balances you think are skatable.

https://www.newbalance.com/made-in-the-usa/

If an ethical skate shoe exists, I would wear it.

In the 90ís, DC approaches the Beastie Boys with some shoes, but they refused to wear them until they did some research, and found out that DCís Korean factory was in fact fairly progressive, with paid holidays and transport to work and back, and the subsequently wore the shoes for a bit.

I suspect that ended as they got bigger, and got bought out by quicksilver or whiever.

There are levels of shittiness, and you are correct, ALL shoe companies use sweatshops. That is an unfortunate and predictable effect of capitalism. But it IS LED by companies LIKE NIKE who, for the sake of astronomical profits, take their manufacturering out of the US to countries with almost zero labor standards.

And of course, who can compete with that? Everyone else is pulled down in an effort to compete. And it becomes a race, and now you have Nike timing workers to hundredths of a second to see how fast they can make shoes. And the only way the pretend to stop, is if someone makes a big enough stink.

Nike is too big, to entrenched, too beholden to its shareholders demand for rising profits to do anything else, donít fucking kid yourselves that they are anything but.

So to summarize, yes, all shoe companies are complicit in exploitation  to varying degrees.
But NIKE leads the way by miles.

You blame capitalism for being ammoral and seeking profit at all costs. You believe the system will abuse humans and destroy the environment. So why then wouldnít that same system be able to create ďethicalĒ shoes if there was sufficient demand. Nike or any other company would make 100% American made shoes with local resources if they could do so profitably. Your beliefs are not justified by the demand in the free market. You in turn want to force your own beliefs on the market through regulation to achieve an outcome you yourself deem more important. Letís say you get your way and all shoe companies can only make extremely expensive ďethicalĒ shoes. Then what? You seem to loathe the idea of incentives through profit. So what are these companies making shoes for? How many shoes do they make? Who gets to decide what the price will be? How much material will each company be allotted?

ChuckRamone

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2018, 10:45:03 PM »
Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.
I do not know every specific detail, but it doesn't sound like they got paid off well at all. How do you explain the MJ situation though. We have both accounts on that one, and in my eyes Crailtap is way more in the wrong than the right there. They had a completely unreasonable ask of MJ and then expected him to hold up that bargain, because they were desperate to unload his shoes but couldn't pay him. I'd say what was asked of MJ is worse than Nike dropping a guy who got a 4 year jail sentence. I grew up on and loved Crailtap videos, and Cory is one of my favorite current skaters, but that doesn't make me oblivious. I don't blame a company for wanting out of selling a guy who just got sentenced to jail for a significant period of times contract, and I don't think a board brand and shoe brand are really all that comparable. I'm curious if we'd see that same loyalty if they had a monthly minimums deal with him on Lakai.

I just don't get why you give companies a pass where riders have been wronged by other skaters, or how companies wronged this community by your standards get a pass. Look, Nike is a corporation and they aren't great. But, I haven't heard of them fucking over anyone who rides them on their contracts. They may have morality clauses that gives them outs, but that is pretty understandable. Do you think guys like Jamie Thomas, Pierre Andrť Senizergues, Tim Gavin, and Rick Howard cared all that much when they were cashing checks from Zumiez at the expense of local shops. No, they only ranted about "core interests" once the corporate giant started fucking over their bottom lines.

MJ was not imposed upon in any way. He didn't have to go to Adidas immediately. He could've stuck around a bit longer at a company who sponsored him for that long. As for the "core" companies you mentioned, there was no reason for these people to rant about "core interests." (Is that a real quote. Who said it? Why is it in quotes?) The dichotomy didn't even exist until nike and the others entered the picture. You can't rant about something that doesn't exist yet.

On a side note: It's crazy that skateboarders came up with a pejorative - "core" - for their own scene. That's pretty fucked up. But people will do anything to justify selling out, including smear campaigns and treachery and rewriting history.
If Lakai isn't paying you, and someone is willing to pay you that week? Who knows when the offer from Adidas would disappear, they may have wanted him for the premier, and then if he turned them down went to the next person on the list. There was a deadline on that video.

These companies, that now cry about big corporations killing them, were helping kill off the DIY or stick to your own community standards you seem to value dearly by selling heavily to corporate accounts with their products. Do you think selling in bulk to mall shops which happened before Nike entered the picture was good? That was fucking over skaters by selling to corporate interests. Nike got into skateshops because shops were feeling the crunch caused by this, and early on Nike offered exclusivity, and was very selective in accounts in regards proximity.

Skate shops started disappearing mostly because of online ordering. Anyway, youíre getting me all wrong. I donít expect businesses to not act like businesses and Iím not trying to pick the lesser of two evils, which seems to be the gist of your guysí argument when youíre not talking about how all businesses are immoral. I donít care about morals. I care about skateboarding and supporting the businesses that will leave it in the best shape possible in the future and give skaters the most sovereignty. Thereís no way a company like nike isnít going to try to dictate how things should be done. Skateboarding is not a business. So businesses and their amorality donít matter to skateboarding. No one is owed a living because they can skate well and thatís always been the understanding until recently when skaters started treating it like a business and a pro sport and feeling entitled to shit.

DannyDee

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2018, 10:58:40 PM »
Koston said things went wrong but in what way? How do you know he got fucked over? There are no details other than he wasnít happy with the situation. What if itís because the other guys wanted an even split but he thought he deserved more than them? How do you know it was Mike and Rick doing the fucking and not the other way around?

I donít idealize any company but there are are ones whose influence I think is better for skating.
I do not know every specific detail, but it doesn't sound like they got paid off well at all. How do you explain the MJ situation though. We have both accounts on that one, and in my eyes Crailtap is way more in the wrong than the right there. They had a completely unreasonable ask of MJ and then expected him to hold up that bargain, because they were desperate to unload his shoes but couldn't pay him. I'd say what was asked of MJ is worse than Nike dropping a guy who got a 4 year jail sentence. I grew up on and loved Crailtap videos, and Cory is one of my favorite current skaters, but that doesn't make me oblivious. I don't blame a company for wanting out of selling a guy who just got sentenced to jail for a significant period of times contract, and I don't think a board brand and shoe brand are really all that comparable. I'm curious if we'd see that same loyalty if they had a monthly minimums deal with him on Lakai.

I just don't get why you give companies a pass where riders have been wronged by other skaters, or how companies wronged this community by your standards get a pass. Look, Nike is a corporation and they aren't great. But, I haven't heard of them fucking over anyone who rides them on their contracts. They may have morality clauses that gives them outs, but that is pretty understandable. Do you think guys like Jamie Thomas, Pierre Andrť Senizergues, Tim Gavin, and Rick Howard cared all that much when they were cashing checks from Zumiez at the expense of local shops. No, they only ranted about "core interests" once the corporate giant started fucking over their bottom lines.

MJ was not imposed upon in any way. He didn't have to go to Adidas immediately. He could've stuck around a bit longer at a company who sponsored him for that long. As for the "core" companies you mentioned, there was no reason for these people to rant about "core interests." (Is that a real quote. Who said it? Why is it in quotes?) The dichotomy didn't even exist until nike and the others entered the picture. You can't rant about something that doesn't exist yet.

On a side note: It's crazy that skateboarders came up with a pejorative - "core" - for their own scene. That's pretty fucked up. But people will do anything to justify selling out, including smear campaigns and treachery and rewriting history.
If Lakai isn't paying you, and someone is willing to pay you that week? Who knows when the offer from Adidas would disappear, they may have wanted him for the premier, and then if he turned them down went to the next person on the list. There was a deadline on that video.

These companies, that now cry about big corporations killing them, were helping kill off the DIY or stick to your own community standards you seem to value dearly by selling heavily to corporate accounts with their products. Do you think selling in bulk to mall shops which happened before Nike entered the picture was good? That was fucking over skaters by selling to corporate interests. Nike got into skateshops because shops were feeling the crunch caused by this, and early on Nike offered exclusivity, and was very selective in accounts in regards proximity.

Skate shops started disappearing mostly because of online ordering. Anyway, youíre getting me all wrong. I donít expect businesses to not act like businesses and Iím not trying to pick the lesser of two evils, which seems to be the gist of your guysí argument when youíre not talking about how all businesses are immoral. I donít care about morals. I care about skateboarding and supporting the businesses that will leave it in the best shape possible in the future and give skaters the most sovereignty. Thereís no way a company like nike isnít going to try to dictate how things should be done. Skateboarding is not a business. So businesses and their amorality donít matter to skateboarding. No one is owed a living because they can skate well and thatís always been the understanding until recently when skaters started treating it like a business and a pro sport and feeling entitled to shit.
I'd would like to think that the pros and skaters I love watching are getting properly compensated. And, you hear way too much about shady shit going on before Nike caused the decline of brands because of their business model. You hear bad shit about Circa, which led to Jamie moving on and starting Fallen.

While Nike is a bit like dealing with the devil, and they have done shops dirty in recent years (and what converse is implementing in Canada is scary). But, I do think aspects of NikeSB bring in money that otherwise wouldn't enter the skate industry. Through the hypebeast aspect of NikeSB shoes and people who never skate buying them. If that helps pay guys who are in their 40's good money such as BA, Lance, Koston, or sponsoring lesser known kids on smaller to help them make good money such as the Polar or 917 guys they pay, I'd think that's a good thing.

I respect your idealism. I just think that is probably impossible to implement or have last. So, I'll enjoy guys getting hooked up and able to make a great living, and produce footage. That happened before, but even if skateboarding was left uninvaded, I think exactly what you fear would of just happened. Podium or Sole Tech would just be our Nike, with significant influence.
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stophatin

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #86 on: September 01, 2018, 12:06:08 AM »
Skate shops started disappearing mostly because of online ordering.

Disagree.   Skate shops disappeared when people stopped buying skateboards.   I have no idea how the last remaining skate shops can survive on what appears to be zero sales

Chavo

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2018, 12:34:15 AM »
Quote
smaller brands can't afford to pay skaters because everyone is buying nikes over their shoes. nike loses interest in skating = smaller brands aren't smaller anymore = can afford to pay skaters. plenty people were making bank off shoes before nike came along
Vans had a monopoly on "made for skateboarding" shoes for decades and squandered it. They also notoriously dropped people when they got hurt in ways that would require significant recovery time. Instead, they put all that money in their pocket.

Because Vans didn't innovate, people wore court shoes made by sporting goods companies Ė see all the old photos of pros wearing Jordan 1s, Natas' Converse Dr. J's, Mike V's Adidas Patrick Ewings, etc. Eventually other skate brands like Vision Street Wear and Etnies came into existence and proved there was an unserved market.

The driving factor behind the popularity of basketball shoes was that they were cheap. You could by Converse Cons or Weapons for under $30 (discount sneaker stores in California were ubiquitous and no one cared about collecting shoes) that would last you months or Vans High Tops for $32. Those overbuilt Ewings or Ellesse were terrible skate shoes with poor board feel and little grip but were a good value.

People seem to forget that Airwalk designed a shoe from scratch to address street skating and dominated the market until the mid-90s. Vision addressed the ollie hole problem in 1986 and Vans made the Madrid in 1987, but they were terrible and overpriced.

Atiba Applebum

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2018, 12:37:30 AM »
Skate shops started disappearing mostly because of online ordering.

Disagree.   Skate shops disappeared when people stopped buying skateboards.   I have no idea how the last remaining skate shops can survive on what appears to be zero sales

Skate shops started disappearing when the 08 recession hit.   They continued to dwindle (as all brick and mortar retail has) due to internet sales. 

Krooked antihero

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Re: Letís be honest about corporate sponsorship Nike etc
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2018, 01:44:42 AM »
Three pages already and no ones talking about that Sinclair interview where he compares the touring lifestyle of Nike vs Foundation?

The shelf life of skaterís careers is pretty small.  Iím al for them making what they can for as long as they can.  Many shot themselves in the foot educationally but wonít be able to bounce back post-sports like major league athletes do. 

I grew up wearing eS, emerica, lakais.  They appealed to me when I was a teenager.   Iím 33 now and I wear mostly corporate shoes.   My tastes have changed and Iíd feel goofy at my age wearing the shoes I did when I was 16.   I donít have larger conversations in my head when making my shoe selection, but many of the Nike horror stories I hear donít seem to affect the shops I support in LA.   If anything they seem to treat them quite well, particularly with this last Premier store dunk drop. 

Skateboarders need something to rebel against and corporations are the easiest target.  Iím too old to care unless a company is doing something inhumane and against my personal ethics.
Iím couple of years older than you and I fucking love to skate same brands as I did when I was 16  ;D (mostly ťS)
europe's like the capitol of england and france and whatever