Author Topic: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary  (Read 1404 times)

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Simon Woodstock

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2018, 10:31:50 PM »
Yes Simon, that's all well and good and obviously I don't condone cannibalism (though I'm willing to make exceptions :p)
but I want to know why you personally, as a man of Christ, choose to cause the pain, suffering and death of sentient beings (supposedly created by your lord no?) even though one your God's most famous commandments is "thou shalt not kill"? He didn't amend that clause did he? I'm pretty sure he didn't...
I don't want you to backtrack, philosophize or write paragraphs on the topic, I want your personal reasoning as to why you think it's okay to do so in 2018.

Usually when we subscribe to a theory/ way or life/ belief, we try (as much as possible) to be consistent with the teachings of said belief system no?
I just can't take religious people seriously when they conveniently ignore certain teachings and yet try and push their beliefs onto others. And let's be realistic here, you only come on SLAP to talk about Christianity so lets talk about your Christianity ...

I will do so. If/when you give me sufficient reason, from the position of your worldview, why anything is universally wrong with anything. If you just have some problem with people from a religious and/or particular philosophical posture having different dietary convictions then you, then good for you. (Or, if you cannot supply a sufficient philosophical foundation for making universal moral [dietary, etc.] claims, then just concede that you can't do so). 

Once you've answered that (one way or the other), then if you will A) be open to consider becoming a Christian if I give sufficient reason for why the Bible is ultimately authoritative in moral/ethical matters; then, B) I will also then lay out a summary of the Biblical view of acceptable dietary allowances (as at this time you don't have a proper understanding of it). Note well: A is important to B; as without accepting A, then you will never accept B, so we would then just talk in circles ad infinitum.   

Deal or no deal?

Also, mind you, this thread is technically about the documentary, so if you would watch the whole thing and give feedback, that would be appreciated.

The good folks over at Loudwire did just that:
http://loudwire.com/cliff-burton-documentary-the-salvation-kingdom/

bawtawdinfinity

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2018, 11:02:30 PM »
No one ever wins when its a vegan vs christian arguing. No one. Ever.

Gay Imp Sausage Metal

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2018, 11:11:54 PM »
No one ever wins when its a vegan vs christian arguing. No one. Ever.
vegan christians do tho!
(imagine if they did crossfit too?)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 11:17:00 PM by Gay Imp Sausage Metal »

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Gay Imp Sausage Metal

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2018, 06:33:50 PM »
Deal or no deal?
So you can't give me an honest answer unless I convert to Christianity? Couldn't you just give me some bullshit answer like, "I like the taste of it"/ "I'm scared of protein deficiency" et. al. or whatever and simply own up to your ideological/ ethical inconsistencies?

Not to quote from the source or anything but...
“Then God said, ‘I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Doesn't say anything about munching on dead corpses for food there mate.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:42:58 PM by Gay Imp Sausage Metal »

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Simon Woodstock

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2018, 08:24:48 PM »
Deal or no deal?


Not to quote from the source or anything but...
“Then God said, ‘I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Doesn't say anything about munching on dead corpses for food there mate.

So, respectfully, an answer to my line of questioning keeps getting dodged because there is no logical option for the atheist/relativist to respond to it. God is needed in any consistent meta-ethical rubric as there has to be an Absolute Standard (i.e., God) outside of all personal, cultural, and societal moral norms for there to be any form of proper external judgement and/or arbitration to take place (that is, God would be necessary for supporting such claims as "eating meat is wrong for all people everywhere" etc.). So, really, if you don't believe that God exists (and that moral relativism is therefore true), then your notion that others should/ought to be vegetarian has its feet planted firmly in mid air as your opinion and the differing opinions of others would all have to be considered equally valid. (Even skeptic Immanuel Kant conceded the necessity of God as an Absolute Moral Standard for similar reasons in his "Critique of Practical Reason").

Nevertheless, if your challenge is that eating meat is not consistent with what the Bible says/teaches, then you are just plainly wrong.

At this point I will simply reference several passages on the topic (with some short commentary in brackets for the sake of clarity) and leave them here (all verses are from the ESV Bible):

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

[Later in history, God gave certain dietary restrictions that excluded the consumption of some animals, but not all]

Leviticus 11:1-8

1 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 4 Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 5 And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6 And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

[Those restrictions were for health reasons in ancient times and also as a modus to symbolically stay pure; health/symbolism being the focus of this next biblical warning to not eat meat with the blood still in it]

Leviticus 19:26 You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it.

[As far as vegetarians, here is what the Apostle Paul had to say]

Romans 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

[The context of what Paul is saying there is that of the issue of local meat that had been offered to idols; as consumption of said meat was a stumbling block for new Christian believers living in idolatrous Rome; Paul had more to say on the matter in the expanded context of the previous verse]

Romans 14:1-3 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?

[The point being that Christian carnivores and vegetarians need to respectfully get along with one another without judging one another about their dietary convictions. Furthermore, note that the point of Jesus' teaching on diet was that piety was not a result of adhering to dietary restrictions/rituals]

Matthew 15:11 "It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person."

[And Jesus Himself ate fish (Luke 24:42), and even multiplied fish to feed to thousands of people (Matthew 14:13-21). Moreover, God, through a revelation to the Apostle Peter, even removed the pre-existing Old Testament dietary restrictions in The Book of Acts 10:1-11:18.]

[The ultimate point of what the Bible has to say to Christians about food is that there is liberty, not restriction. The sum of the Christian teaching being as follows]

1 Corinthians 10:31 "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

In summary conclusion: The Bible obviously and unequivocally supports/allows for the consumption of animals in both the Old and New Testaments. The passage you keep mis-quoting out of context (e.g., Exodus 20:13) is actually properly rendered "You shall not murder" and is reference to the sin of maliciously taking the life of another human being without just cause.

There you have it; your challenge that for a Christian to eat meat is somehow inconsistent with the Bible has been refuted, Brah.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 09:19:11 PM by Simon Woodstock »

Gay Imp Sausage Metal

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2018, 10:10:32 PM »
and there are also 50 other quotes (please don't me make paste them all here) which negate all of that, but as you already know the bible is in itself a contradictory mess.

I don't give a shit about your god in all honesty, nor do I need his teachings to tell me what is right/ wrong. My question to you is (for the 50th time): why do you think it's okay to enslave, kill, torture and rape animals in 2018? Because Jesus said it was okay to do so some 2000 years ago? He also said women shouldn't speak in church but I'm guessing you still don't defend that one in 2018?

Couldn 't you personally, and as a man of god, just avoid all of that? As someone who wants to lead by example (and presumably make the world a better place?) couldn't you just like not kill shit? I mean you're not an eskimo that needs to hunt for his own survival, you have a plethora of cruelty-free options available to you, so what's your line of thinking in all this? "Well I could just like not kill shit that my supposed god created (and also gave the ability to feel  pain) .... nah screw that fuck you cow!!!". That seems like needless suffering and contradictory to god's message no?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 10:13:13 PM by Gay Imp Sausage Metal »

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Simon Woodstock

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2018, 08:35:46 AM »
and there are also 50 other quotes (please don't me make paste them all here) which negate all of that, but as you already know the bible is in itself a contradictory mess.

I don't give a shit about your god in all honesty, nor do I need his teachings to tell me what is right/ wrong. My question to you is (for the 50th time): why do you think it's okay to enslave, kill, torture and rape animals in 2018? Because Jesus said it was okay to do so some 2000 years ago? He also said women shouldn't speak in church but I'm guessing you still don't defend that one in 2018?

Couldn 't you personally, and as a man of god, just avoid all of that? As someone who wants to lead by example (and presumably make the world a better place?) couldn't you just like not kill shit? I mean you're not an eskimo that needs to hunt for his own survival, you have a plethora of cruelty-free options available to you, so what's your line of thinking in all this? "Well I could just like not kill shit that my supposed god created (and also gave the ability to feel  pain) .... nah screw that fuck you cow!!!". That seems like needless suffering and contradictory to god's message no?

Basically, you just said: "There is a maybe/probably biblical argument against your case somewhere in the stratosphere, but I don't have a clue what that is, so I am not going to provide it"

So, like I said. If A is not on the horizon for you, then B won't be appealing to you. Your further issues are riddled with equivocation, illogic (Chronological fallacy for one), and emotive ranting and unnecessary expletives; and, although I could go through point by point and show the illogical nature of every single one of your statements, I don't owe that to you in the slightest; especially since you have never even tried to explain the metaphysical foundation for imposing your morals on others from an atheist position. You haven't done that, and can't do that (because there is no tenable answer available to you without God). At this point, basically, you are just brining up red herrings and making unfounded, generally distracting, emotive statements riddled with expletives. And, you're basically being coarsely judgemental towards people that eat meat.

If you want to keep dialoging with me here, I will take up one related topical argument at this point. If you want to give some kind of actual (non emotive, logical, non profanity laced) argument against the Bible as being authoritative, while also agreeing to being open to actually considering any counter arguments that I propose in response, then I will take the time to go through that with you here. If you are going to simply keep doing what you are doing up to this point, then that is not appealing to me in the slightest insofar as potential, progressive, fruitful dialogue is concerned.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 08:40:10 AM by Simon Woodstock »

Simon Woodstock

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2018, 08:37:30 AM »
No one ever wins when its a vegan vs christian arguing. No one. Ever.

“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26

https://www.christianpost.com/news/new-metallica-film-salvation-kingdom-christian-faith-deceased-member-cliff-burton-225317/

Sad Hippo

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2018, 08:57:23 AM »
You're fucking Connie aren't you Simon?

Gay Imp Sausage Metal

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
Basically, you just said: "There is a maybe/probably biblical argument against your case somewhere in the stratosphere, but I don't have a clue what that is, so I am not going to provide it"
"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Genesis 1:29-30

“But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.” - Genesis 9:4

 “A righteous man has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.” - Proverbs 12:10

“Woe to those who lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat lambs from the flock, and calves from the midst of the stall; who sing idle songs to the sound of the harp, and like David invent for themselves instruments of music; who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the finest oils, but are not grieved over the ruin of Joseph!” - Amos 6:4-6

"Do not be among winebibbers, or among gluttonous eaters of meat;" - Proverbs 23:20

"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble" Romans 14:21

but yes, you also have a slew of other passages that allow for mass animal sacrifices, basically allow you to eat anything you like, and enslave and treat animals like shit; as I already mentioned the bible itself is a mess of contradictions in regards to animal rights (and many other topics).

***

To summarize my thoughts though (and yes, I too doubt this conversation is really going to go anywhere):

- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, want to reduce the amount of suffering, violence and unnecessary killing in the world.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would agree that it is right to protect and stand up for those weaker than themselves.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would class themselves as animal lovers as opposed to animal haters.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, enjoy the companionship and happiness that animals can bring into their lives
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would NOT put up with cruelty towards animals if it was directed at their family pet.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, probably wouldn't be able to slit an animal's throat without feeling any emotion while doing so.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would not support the animal agriculture industry if they knew what happened behind closed doors.


So I think that most sane people on this planet are actually for animal rights, no one is going to (sanely) argue for the side of animal cruelty; even those that do eat meat will say, "well I want it to be killed quickly and as *humanely* as possible". Hell, even hunters (waves at Geoff) will agree with this one.
So why then, if we have a plethora of other cruelty-free options available to us, do we continue to go against our beliefs/ gut feeling on this one?

I'm being coarsely judgmental toward meat-eaters? LOL I'm actually not, I'm being coarsely judgmental towards people that preach love, forgiveness and compassion while contributing and supporting an industry that is the direct opposite of those virtues (i.e you!) even though they don't have to.
If you were a regular slap poster that just said I'm lazy/ I like the taste of mai meat/ vegainz lack proteinz/ or any other too-hard-to-be-vegan-excuse then our conversation would be over. I just find it absolutely ridiculous that you can't give a straight answer for your choice to support this cruelty without going all philosophy 101 on my arse.
Sure, as a human being and as a man of god you have freedom of choice, why choose the violent/ destructive/ cruel option though?

Anyway mate, you do you I guess? Personally I think most of us would appreciate it if you actually talked about skating/ stories from the past instead of just logging on when you feel like pushing your religious agenda on us but it looks like that is the path you have chosen (pun intended). 

Quote
You're fucking Connie aren't you Simon?
fuck I laughed hard at that one! have a gnar. If he was though that would indeed be an epic life hammer!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 11:17:02 PM by Gay Imp Sausage Metal »

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Simon Woodstock

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Re: New Cliff Burton / Connie Burton (Metallica) Documentary
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2018, 09:27:33 AM »
Basically, you just said: "There is a maybe/probably biblical argument against your case somewhere in the stratosphere, but I don't have a clue what that is, so I am not going to provide it"
"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Genesis 1:29-30

“But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.” - Genesis 9:4

 “A righteous man has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.” - Proverbs 12:10

“Woe to those who lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat lambs from the flock, and calves from the midst of the stall; who sing idle songs to the sound of the harp, and like David invent for themselves instruments of music; who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the finest oils, but are not grieved over the ruin of Joseph!” - Amos 6:4-6

"Do not be among winebibbers, or among gluttonous eaters of meat;" - Proverbs 23:20

"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble" Romans 14:21

but yes, you also have a slew of other passages that allow for mass animal sacrifices, basically allow you to eat anything you like, and enslave and treat animals like shit; as I already mentioned the bible itself is a mess of contradictions in regards to animal rights (and many other topics).

***

To summarize my thoughts though (and yes, I too doubt this conversation is really going to go anywhere):

- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, want to reduce the amount of suffering, violence and unnecessary killing in the world.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would agree that it is right to protect and stand up for those weaker than themselves.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would class themselves as animal lovers as opposed to animal haters.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, enjoy the companionship and happiness that animals can bring into their lives
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would NOT put up with cruelty towards animals if it was directed at their family pet.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, probably wouldn't be able to slit an animal's throat without feeling any emotion while doing so.
- Most sane people, regardless of whether they are religious or not, would not support the animal agriculture industry if they knew what happened behind closed doors.


So I think that most sane people on this planet are actually for animal rights, no one is going to (sanely) argue for the side of animal cruelty; even those that do eat meat will say, "well I want it to be killed quickly and as *humanely* as possible". Hell, even hunters (waves at Geoff) will agree with this one.
So why then, if we have a plethora of other cruelty-free options available to us, do we continue to go against our beliefs/ gut feeling on this one?

I'm being coarsely judgmental toward meat-eaters? LOL I'm actually not, I'm being coarsely judgmental towards people that preach love, forgiveness and compassion while contributing and supporting an industry that is the direct opposite of those virtues (i.e you!) even though they don't have to.
If you were a regular slap poster that just said I'm lazy/ I like the taste of mai meat/ vegainz lack proteinz/ or any other too-hard-to-be-vegan-excuse then our conversation would be over. I just find it absolutely ridiculous that you can't give a straight answer for your choice to support this cruelty without going all philosophy 101 on my arse.
Sure, as a human being and as a man of god you have freedom of choice, why choose the violent/ destructive/ cruel option though?

Anyway mate, you do you I guess? Personally I think most of us would appreciate it if you actually talked about skating/ stories from the past instead of just logging on when you feel like pushing your religious agenda on us but it looks like that is the path you have chosen (pun intended). 


Thanks for taking the time to reply again. Honestly, I expected much less, and you at least searched out the Scriptures in response. You can do the further work on your own researching the various contexts of the passages you cited (you will find that they don't institute vegetarianism and that the preponderance of the passages on diet in the Bible support the consumption of less glamorous animals). Moreover, as someone who does not posit God, you will never have any grounds for saying anything beyond your own opinion is wrong for anyone else. And, again, you can keep doing your own research in that regard; if you let logic prevail, you could certainly remain vegan, but you would then be able to better argue for it by having a meta ethical foundation for doing so. But, believing in God might necessitate some other moralities in your life (which, in the long run would be better for both you and society). Just some food for thought there.

I am done with this conversation here. But, if you wish to talk more about God and/or skate life stories, you can reach me at [email protected]

If you or anyone else send me an address, I will send some stickers, etc.

Thanks for coming out. I will remember you as one of the better discussion counterparts on here.

Have a great remainder of the summer.