Author Topic: Refugee crisis in Europe.  (Read 66337 times)

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Monty Burns

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2015, 02:57:52 AM »
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Monty, it sounds like you're parroting the typical bs from European tabloids and their online commenters.

Example:
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You would let them into your apartment or house right away . How many of these refuges are you willing to move into your house ?
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This is the dumbest comment of them all, and it gets spouted a lot on the internet. I am for free education, does that mean I have to teach kids in my house? I am for free medical insurance, do I need to treat people in my house? No, I am paying taxes so that these services are available to all, and it's the government's responsibility to provide them.

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Sure , you pay taxes for all of those things , but what do we do when theres not enough money ? . Biggest problem with taking all these refugees in are housing . We currently have a buss in sweden with 50 something refugese refusing to leave the buss that drove them to their temperary housing cause they dont feel its safe . The compaints was there was no wifi , no close shops , not in a big city and there might be wild life around like Moose . In a situation like this one could say if you really cared about these people let them move into your apartment since the government doesnt have the resources to put them else ware

Please give me a solution to taking in all these people ? higher taxes ? building more schools , more housing ? more hospitals ? create more jobs for teachers and doctors ? . We cant even do that when we have no refugees to help

If a lady gets shot in the street , 2 para medics bring her up to your house and say they need to treat her here and now . Do you refuse cause while you are for free health care you want your goverment to handle it , you pay them for it . Or do you let them treat her . I mean shes not gonna stay there for ever

If some refugese need a place to stay for awhile , maybe afew months . Do you let them ?  I mean they need a place to stay and its not forever


Who are you guys blaming for the war ? was Assad set up as ruler of Syria by US or EU ? . Isnt the current war in syria and Iraq betwen 2 muslim sects ? the sunni and shia ? . Sweden is a neutral country , we had peace keeping missions in Afghanistan , We havent had anything to do with Syria or Iraq , In fact we didnt support the Iraq war , yet we take in refugees from all these countries

I know its known now that Bush and Blair set this whole thing up . I think Bush , blair and cheney should be in some war trail . But are you guys sure Iraq / Afghanistan were better off with the Taliban and Husein and his sons ?

Ill admit Im not the smartest guy , Im a high school drop out and theres alot of shit I dont get . Id just try to remind you guys again that this is just my opinion . Im not trying to insult or call you guys names and shit . So lets try to keep it civil and have a calm discussion about this
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 Greece is famous for being in deep shit since 2009. Yet you know something that they dont say at your news? Greece has more billioners and richer billioners than those it had 6 years ago. My family lost 40% of their income during those years so that the billioners can keep on profiting. Kids at schools are hungry. Infrastructure is rotting. Desperate people are commiting suicide. Unemployment is at 27% while youth unemployment is at 50%. And now they let immigrants and refugees dieing in our shores and seas.

 Everyone that says that there are no money should be ashamed. There are money in the hands of greedy sociopath assholes, who dont give a fuck about human life. Refugees, immigrants, locals have all right to work, housing and decent living.

I have a hard time following this post since nothing I said in this quote you posted has anything to do with greece ?

Are you suggesting you should take money from rich people just because they are rich ? what about the rich people who worked hard to become rich ? should we just take money from them cause they are successful ? I mean if they did something illegal , sure take their money , lock them up .

You are saying people dont have jobs , kids dont eat , people are taking their own lifes and the Infrastructure is rotting . And you want to take in refuges in the country ? If you cant take care of yourself dont take on more responsibility with trying to save others . Its only making your situation worse .

If you dont have jobs for the greeks what are you going to give the refugees ? if you dont have food for the greeks , what are you going to give the refugees ?  if you dont have homes for the greeeks ? what are you gonna give to the refugees ?




Tufty

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2015, 04:06:40 AM »
 Its the same all over, but greece is the extreme. There are money. Money that are not spent because there arent many good investements that can multiply them. However there are people that can work and need to work but people with money wont invest because they cant multiply their money more efficiently. And since the model all over is leaning towards private investments instead of public-state ones we have to tolerate this bullshit.

 You cant be very rich if you dont exploit others. One person can achieve more or less some maximum value. If he wants to produce more value he has to hire people and pay them less than the value they produce. So rich persons benefit by this simple principle. Yet in a system where private investements are fundamental for the economy they also benefit from legal tax evasion and other priviledges that average joes cant have, because investors are more valuable than them. You cant be "succesful" if you are not playing the game right, and to play the game right you have to be a sociopath asshole. I mean Steve Jobs would be steve jobs without the cheap inhuman labor in china and the kids working in the mines? Would bankers be succesful if they hessitated in destroying indebted countries?

 Refugees are really suprised by the amount of solidarity they ve seen in Greece. They know the situation here and are amazed that the majority of greeks instead of being fascist assholes, help them. Of course there are some racist incidents. Most of them know that cant have a normal life here because even greeks cant, so greece is just a station before going north. However my country is member of NATO and West alliance and I recognize that this is our fault. Syria is just a country that is between Russia's and West's interest and thats why the war is happening there. I recognize my rensponsibility for this situation and I also recognize that there are money in the hands of rich assholes so I demand these for refugees and locals. Anyway these money are stolen from communities.

KING TUT

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2015, 04:42:37 AM »
I agree Monty I'm not from Sweden myself but we all have a responsibility as decent human beings to let in as many asylum seekers as we possibly can but we should not go over board to the point its detrimental to society and the asylum seekers themselves, that's just obviously not wise.

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2015, 05:27:39 AM »
This theme was talked a lot on facebook and made me see the true colors of many people, people can be so selfish and hatefull, even when talking about strangers. There's a hate conspiracy against the refugees, lots of clips of people rioting, destroying things, rejecting food, but its all manipulated to create fear in the society, mainly by extreme right wing groups. I'm pro-refugee. People tend to forget we are talking about people, human beings like us and not about numbers. Frontiers are just an ilusion, and people value is equal for anyone from anywere. Nobody should be blamed for beying born in a shithole country. I just cant judge someone for searching a safe place with good conditions to live, and no Monty, other islamic countrys arent a good option. Sure there are some bad people coming in, but bad people exist everywere and we just cant negate help to them and forget they are people, and there's a lot of good people in there too (the biggest part). Their culture can be outdated and barbaric at times but education is the key, those children will be the tomorrow europeans, so teach them how to be civilized. I think they can be helpfull to europe if we knew how to deal with this crisis.

So true. In Slovenia we had a public shaming blog for FB commenters and it worked into forcing people to rethink what they wrote.

You should hear my grandparents rant about refugees without any arguments, just some speculation etc.

Coworker's girlfriend spent a night as a volunteer and she came back in a state of shock about how poor these people are, just struggling to get to a decent life. I highly doubt these people will cause problems if they are given an opportunity to integrate. And I live in a big apartment building with economical migrants and they are really nice. It's just that a small percentage of idiots that ruin the image of whole communities.

Alan

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2015, 06:58:59 AM »
Monty, obviously all EU countries should take in as many refugees as they can. But your initial complaint was about Syria's neighbours not taking in refugees, and that is simply not true, except for Saudi Arabia. The problem is that other, richer EU countries aren't taking in  nearly the same numbers of refugees as Sweden, the UK being the best example. And if there is enough money to bail out banks, you can be sure that there is enough money to house all these refugees for longer periods.

As for Sweden being neutral, it's not that simple. Yes, Sweden is one of the world leaders in humanitarian efforts. But looking at the big picture, Sweden is very much part of the Western system. Its neutrality is more or less nominal. Just look where Sweden is exporting weapons to. Not to mention that Swedish planes took part in the NATO bombings in Libya. Also, how much of its wealth depends on cheap labour overseas? All these things are connected.









Edit: Btw, I looked up the bus incident. It's only a group of 14 people (out of 60) who wouldn't leave the bus. 14 people! And I bet this was headline news in the tabloids, something like "Muslim Refugees Shit on Swedish Hospitality!" And besides, in the meantime they have left the bus and are settling in.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:12:44 AM by Alan »
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excitableboy

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2015, 06:59:26 AM »
Here's a Swede who actually makes some sense of things:

Where Are the Syrian Refugees? - Factpod #17

Since this video about 100.000 more Syrians have fled into Europe. But in any case, it is obvious that at this rate, it will take centuries before Europeans even are at risk of becoming a minority. Surrounding countries take in way more refugees, in fact there is not one European country among the top 10 countries taking in refugees. As for Saudi Arabia, who gives a fuck what they do. Why even bother taking that moral desert into consideration? To be fair, they did throw a shitload of money at the problem, building camps in other countries to help refugees. The UN also stated that Saudi Arabia hosts about half a million Syrians, many of whom are thought to be refugees. All I'm saying is that what Saudia Arabia, Qatar, or the Emirates do should not inform our decisions in any way. If anything, it should prompt us to do otherwise.

Even if we were overrun by refugees, it shouldn't matter. We ought to do what is right, not what is convenient. But the simple fact is: we are not full, neither geographically nor monetarily. I hear many people object to spending money on refugees, because our governments are cutting on healthcare already, the elderly are being stood up, etcetera. But when you look at the numbers, none of these claims add up. My government, for example, spends about 7% of its budget on healthcare. The refugee crisis accounts for less than a quarter of one percent of government expenses, annually. So even with capitalists hoarding our hard earned money and keeping it from those who need and deserve it, we still are not anywhere near too full, or too poor to deal with this.

Besides the more indirect ways in which Europe is responsible for the situation these people are in, there is also a more direct one. Many refugees pay thousands of euro's to make it across. They don't get on an airplane, because we don't let most of them. The airlines don't let them, to be precise, so as not to incur fines for trafficking economic migrants. It should at least be acknowledged that these drownings happened as a result of EU policy.
   It would make much more sense if refugees could apply for asylum before taking on the Mediterranean in an inflatable raft. This way, after it is granted (virtually every request from Syria is approved, in every European country, which goes the show how needless all these deaths are), they can just get on a plane. Because most Syrians aren't rich, but they're not dirt poor either. Just because they have a smart phone does not mean they are taking advantage or aren't deserving of help.

Yesterday there was an article on the front page, about an asylum seeker who had been arrested for making video of a 15-year old girl in the locker room of some swimming pool. This happened in some Belgian village, and we all know it would never have made the paper, let alone the front page, if it weren't an immigrant who did it. I wouldn't even address people who are afraid of the foreign man coming to plunder his bumfuck town and kidnap their daughters, if they weren't serious about it. Believe me Monty, the percentage of raping Swedes is roughly that of raping Syrians. You are right, the media are mostly about the bad, and it's times like these that you can decide which newspaper is worth its salt.




« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:05:20 AM by excitableboy »

jonnysheen

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2015, 09:37:59 AM »
Saudi Arabia funds ISIS, which has caused this refugee problem.

As for Europe not taking as many refugees? It's mainly because the population doesn't care about other people anymore. So many ideas of looking after the other have failed, or have appeared to have failed and people are worn out by it.

Sovereignty, democracy and state control are on the decline all over the Europe, so why believe that more people are the answer.  

Great debate BTW!

Monty Burns

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2015, 10:55:06 AM »
for Tufty

 
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You cant be very rich if you dont exploit others

I tried to find a old article , was something to be top 10% of the richest in the world , all you would need was basicly to have a normal pay in the European countries . If anybody could find the article let me know and post it . It would prove my point that you can be very rich and just be a normal person , not exploiting others .

Another question is what is very rich ?  the two top richest persons Bill Gates and Carlos Slim have given away millions if not billions to charities and setting up foundations to help the world in environmental issues and food projects

 
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You cant be "successful" if you are not playing the game right, and to play the game right you have to be a sociopath asshole. I mean Steve Jobs would be steve jobs without the cheap inhuman labor in china and the kids working in the mines?

Steve Jobs is a perfect example for me , it goes to show my example of that people dont give a shit about others . Everybody knows that materials for iphones come from Afghanistan and the Congo , we know Apples factories have suicide nets . We know cheap clothes come from sweat shops , but people wait in ques for days to get the newest over priced Iphone with almost no improvements



 
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However my country is member of NATO and West alliance and I recognize that this is our fault. Syria is just a country that is between Russia's and West's interest and thats why the war is happening there. I recognize my responsibility for this situation and I also recognize that there are money in the hands of rich assholes so I demand these for refugees and locals. Anyway these money are stolen from communities.

Unless you voted for Greece to enter NATO you cant hold yourself responsible for that actions of NATO , heck even if you voted for it
You cant predict all the chooses they make . You are on some super weird white guilt trip mission there .

What money are you talking about ? money from rich business men ?  If they didnt take this money from somebody in a illegal way , its their money to do what they want to do with it . How did they steal the money ?  . I mean if they close a factory in greece to move it to Afghanistan , its their choice . Its not good for greece , or the population but if its nothing illegal . You cant just take money from rich people cause you think others need it more


For excitableboy


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Even if we were overrun by refugees, it shouldn't matter. We ought to do what is right, not what is convenient

I kind think the reason the small countries in europe are good countries cause they are small countries . Look at every big country with 100 million people in them . Im not saying they are shit , but theres a reason countries like Belgium , Netherlands , Sweden , Denmark
Norway . Swizz and others are doing so well . They are small and manageable

Sweden should be a country that is leading in things like education , environmental issues and things like that . Not struggling to give children education and healthcare . You think if we bring in 4 million (4 million syrian refugese was a number on the map from Alans post  refugee to Sweden any of those issues would be in the top concerns ?

If we are gonna do whats right then we should take in all refugees , a quick google gave that number to 60 million


 
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My government, for example, spends about 7% of its budget on healthcare. The refugee crisis accounts for less than a quarter of one percent of government expenses, annually. So even with capitalists hoarding our hard earned money and keeping it from those who need and deserve it, we still are not anywhere near too full, or too poor to deal with this

So everything is perfect in Belgium then ? politicians are just lying that they cant deal with this ? google told me you have a unemployment rate of 8.7% right now .  How is the healthcare ? how are the schools ? over worked ? under paid ?

And with the highlighted  . Are you saying Capitalists are stealing tax payer money and pocketing it ? Private citizens are stealing it from the government and keeping it from schools and hospitals ?


 
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asylum seeker who had been arrested for making video of a 15-year old girl in the locker room of some swimming pool. This happened in some Belgian village, and we all know it would never have made the paper, let alone the front page, if it weren't an immigrant who did it.

Belgium doesnt report on child abuse / pornography anymore ? . I dont trust the media from both points . Ive seen several instances where the media has made sure that the race and if they were immigrants or not was not reported .

Almost all media in sweden right now is on the "side " of the refugees , It was quite interesting to see that " Refuge" who lost his wife and 2 kids crossing with a boat . All media reported what a tragedy it was . and it caused outrage about how countries and smugglers abuse the refuges . Later it was broken that he was in fact a smuggler / trafficker , almost no papers ran with that story


John oliver ran with this story awhile ago , one of his points was that Europe is running out of population and we need the refugese .
Id rather have sweden reach a point where we need to bring in a work force , where we can offer homes , spots in education , hospital beds and so on , instead of being in a situation where we have too many people were we cant offer that

We did it before in the 60s I belive . Sweden needed people for factory work and so on . Lots of eastern Europeans came over , got homes , got work , got school . And there were no huge demonstrations or anything against it . Casue we needed them , they needed us and we had space for them

Seamus_McShamebag

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2015, 01:16:21 PM »
Monty, it sounds like you're parroting the typical bs from European tabloids and their online commenters.

Example:
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You would let them into your apartment or house right away . How many of these refuges are you willing to move into your house ?
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This is the dumbest comment of them all, and it gets spouted a lot on the internet. I am for free education, does that mean I have to teach kids in my house? I am for free medical insurance, do I need to treat people in my house? No, I am paying taxes so that these services are available to all, and it's the government's responsibility to provide them.
There are programs in Sweden to take in refugees and it's shitty to see that there is a need for people who can take in unaccompanied children...

http://www.thelocal.se/20150903/five-ways-to-help-refugees-if-you-live-in-sweden

3. Offer a spare room
 
Yes we know Sweden's big cities have a housing crisis, but if you are in a position to offer a spare room to refugees - especially unaccompanied children - some local authorities have  launched schemes designed to help facilitate this. Solna, north of Stockholm, for example says it is in desperate need of volunteer foster parents while G�tene in west Sweden has put out an appeal for families who are "open and curious" about other cultures to help provide support to vulnerable young asylum seekers, by offering them a room in a family home.
 
Contact your municipality to find out more about the situation in your area


Tufty

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2015, 04:23:58 AM »
I cant believe there are people in the 21st century that fall for the PR scam that charity is....

I didnt vote for NATO and on the contrary I vote the only party in the greek parliament that is against the NATO and the EU. However since I was born I am used to a lifestyle that is based on exploiting the third world, and other countries. I am not the idiot in line for the new I phone or the idiot that would kill for the new Nikeys, but you cant escape it. Electronics, that is my profession, are only designed in EU and US and are made in China. Shoes and clothes are made in asian countries and I heard that even china's labour is too expensive for the suits so they go for even cheaper labor in Bagladesh for example. I take responsibility for this and as a working man I see refugees as allies. My country is a colony anyway just like theirs but with better quality of life.

I explained why the rich people's money are not their money. And of course I dont agree with a system that cant connect the needs of people with production and labour but can only cater the greedy assholes. However longterm it wont work for the greedy assholes either. They know that, thats why they attack the wages of people in Europe. They want to bring the factories back because China and Mexico buisiness classes emerged from the offshoring craze and now they straight compete the American - EU ones. However they wont bring them back until the wages become competitive with the cost of wages + cost of transportation + other costs due to non locality in China.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 04:40:33 AM by Tufty »

excitableboy

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2015, 04:56:07 AM »

For excitableboy


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Even if we were overrun by refugees, it shouldn't matter. We ought to do what is right, not what is convenient
[close]

I kind think the reason the small countries in europe are good countries cause they are small countries . Look at every big country with 100 million people in them . Im not saying they are shit , but theres a reason countries like Belgium , Netherlands , Sweden , Denmark
Norway . Swizz and others are doing so well . They are small and manageable

Sweden should be a country that is leading in things like education , environmental issues and things like that . Not struggling to give children education and healthcare . You think if we bring in 4 million (4 million syrian refugese was a number on the map from Alans post� refugee to Sweden any of those issues would be in the top concerns ?

If we are gonna do whats right then we should take in all refugees , a quick google gave that number to 60 million


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My government, for example, spends about 7% of its budget on healthcare. The refugee crisis accounts for less than a quarter of one percent of government expenses, annually. So even with capitalists hoarding our hard earned money and keeping it from those who need and deserve it, we still are not anywhere near too full, or too poor to deal with this
[close]

So everything is perfect in Belgium then ? politicians are just lying that they cant deal with this ? google told me you have a unemployment rate of 8.7% right now .� How is the healthcare ? how are the schools ? over worked ? under paid ?

And with the highlighted� . Are you saying Capitalists are stealing tax payer money and pocketing it ? Private citizens are stealing it from the government and keeping it from schools and hospitals ?


 
Quote
Expand Quote
asylum seeker who had been arrested for making video of a 15-year old girl in the locker room of some swimming pool. This happened in some Belgian village, and we all know it would never have made the paper, let alone the front page, if it weren't an immigrant who did it.
[close]

Belgium doesnt report on child abuse / pornography anymore ? . I dont trust the media from both points . Ive seen several instances where the media has made sure that the race and if they were immigrants or not was not reported .

Almost all media in sweden right now is on the "side " of the refugees , It was quite interesting to see that " Refuge" who lost his wife and 2 kids crossing with a boat . All media reported what a tragedy it was . and it caused outrage about how countries and smugglers abuse the refuges . Later it was broken that he was in fact a smuggler / trafficker , almost no papers ran with that story


John oliver ran with this story awhile ago , one of his points was that Europe is running out of population and we need the refugese .
Id rather have sweden reach a point where we need to bring in a work force , where we can offer homes , spots in education , hospital beds and so on , instead of being in a situation where we have too many people were we cant offer that

We did it before in the 60s I belive . Sweden needed people for factory work and so on . Lots of eastern Europeans came over , got homes , got work , got school . And there were no huge demonstrations or anything against it . Casue we needed them , they needed us and we had space for them

Those countries you named are doing well for a variety of reasons, of which size and population are only one factor. The Norwegians drill, the Swiss bank, the Dutch provide a tax haven for even the most shady of companies. And Sweden is among the most comfortable places to live last I checked. It is true that Sweden takes in the most refugees per capita in Europe, but to say this is already eating away at the Swedes world renowned level of education is just a bit ridiculous. But it's true there is a tipping point somewhere of which we need to be mindful. And Sweden should be relieved by other countries indeed, UK being the most obvious candidate. Not sure what the 4 million figure proves, let alone the 60 million. No one said Sweden should take all refugees.

And I don't know exactly how Belgium is doing, as I don't live there either, but politicians there are notoriously inept. What they say they can or cannot handle indicates next to nothing. Of course you are right about the refugees posing a problem for them, I never said otherwise. They do for every country. All I'm saying is you are overstating it. Unemployment rates have sucked in about every country over the last few years. The bit of money that we now have to spend on refugees will not make that much of a dent, as I explained earlier. It's true that for Sweden, the refugee crisis accounts for about 4 percent of expenses, which is admittedly problematic. But in the longer run it may well help our economies. You know this too, because you just explained it with the story about the 60's.
   The article I read was actually in a Dutch paper. Sure abuse gets reported, but not something minor like this, on the front page in a different country. It might have made a local paper at best.

About the highlighted. I just mentioned that in reply to Tufty, who is right in saying that there is plenty of money to go around for this refugee problem. It just isn't in the right hands. But even then, there still is enough of a tax buffer to deal with this. Sweden is the exception here, because they are almost biting off more than they can chew at the moment.

Edit: Forgot to address the smuggler. What exactly is your point here? Is that kid who drowned any less innocent because of his father being a smuggler (a profession which, again, ceases to exist the moment the EU amends its policies)? It's only right that his father's hustle is simply not as newsworthy as that picture.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:07:48 AM by excitableboy »

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2015, 06:39:45 AM »
for Tufty

 
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Expand Quote
You cant be very rich if you dont exploit others
[close]

I tried to find a old article , was something to be top 10% of the richest in the world , all you would need was basicly to have a normal pay in the European countries . If anybody could find the article let me know and post it . It would prove my point that you can be very rich and just be a normal person , not exploiting others .


I got you tufty.
http://www.globalrichlist.com/

I make 24,000 a year. Where I live well, I live frugally in Southern California. Top ramen and $900 dollar toyota truck aside, that still puts me in the top 2.5% of the world for income.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JtCcy6Tpdno

Ha!
I fully endorse making fun of everyone no matter what during whatever situation. Humor is rad. The whole social justice warrior thing is hilarious to me.
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Monty Burns

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2015, 08:53:19 AM »
First of all thanks to Pabst for finding me that link , thanks dude


So Tufty

Quote
You cant be very rich if you dont exploit others


Quote
You cant be "successful" if you are not playing the game right, and to play the game right you have to be a sociopath asshole

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

I entered pretty much minimum wage in Sweden numbers , thats lower then what somebody at Burger King or McDonalds make in sweden and they still came in on top 3.5% of the world . Now you cant say top 3% or top 5% is not part of the richest on earth.

These are hard working , normal people who are maybe single parents , or just have a small apartment and is just living a normal life and you are calling them Sociopath assholes .

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I cant believe there are people in the 21st century that fall for the PR scam that charity is....

I donate every month 10 euros to Médecins Sans Frontières and 10 euros to WWF . I do think my money does some good

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I explained why the rich people's money are not their money. And of course I dont agree with a system that cant connect the needs of people with production and labor but can only cater the greedy assholes

Ok Im gonna need you to explain exactly how its not their money . Somebody deciding to move a factory to another country to make more money is not doing something illegal . You should check out what kind of webste you are on . A skateboarding one .
Where do u think your favorit companies gets their shoes and clothes made ? where does the wood come from ? where do the
wheels and trucks come from . Im kinda surprised you skate

Im starting to think you are communist ? you are saying people cant have their company where they want ? and you are saying government / people can just take the money of rich people just cause others need them more then rich people

You cant just take money from people cause you dont like what they do with it . There has to be some illegal action


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I didnt vote for NATO and on the contrary I vote the only party in the Greek parliament that is against the NATO and the EU. However since I was born I am used to a lifestyle that is based on exploiting the third world,

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I take responsibility for this and as a working man I see refugees as allies. My country is a colony anyway just like theirs but with better quality of life.

Dude you are on some next level white guilt here . You wanna take responsibility for things just by living in Europe . You werent even born / voted in some of these things . You still feel guilty for Romans / greek having slaves ? you feel responsibility for WW2 ? I mean Greece did participate in it . In that case I want to hold you personalty responsible for the deaths of all the Syrians who drowned trying to get to Greece . I mean they are trying to reach your country . 



For excitableboy

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Those countries you named are doing well for a variety of reasons, of which size and population are only one factor. The Norwegians drill, the Swiss bank, the Dutch provide a tax haven for even the most shady of companies. And Sweden is among the most comfortable places to live last I checked.

Actually thats 2 factors , not one ( cheap one , but funny ) Swiss has bank , Norway has oil and Sweden has comfort ? not sure what you mean . And Sweden is not a comfortable country , Its a cold country , we cant grow everything we want . Its thanks to Swedens good infrastructure and environmental programs that we can live good lifes , in heated houses

Its when countries are doing really good we have time and money to make it a good country . Look at the countries who have had many wars , countries who are poor , countries with very harsh climates / nature / living situations . 99% of them dont have amazing schools , most the people have to struggle to survive . Religion is super important , and they have very bad environmental programs .

All the scandinavian countries have time and money to work on these issues . Theres a reason why we work very hard on pollution , make sure nature and environmental issues are high on things to take care of . Why we value school / learning so much . Why instead of just trying to feed people we try to feed people the right things .


The things Im worries about are when at times right now in Sweden we dont have shelters enough for homeless people , how are we gonna do it when when we get lets say 20 000 refugese ? . Should we tell swedish citizens they have stay outside and freeze cause people from syria are taking theire spots




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Not sure what the 4 million figure proves, let alone the 60 million. No one said Sweden should take all refugees.

Its just a example on yours and tuftys point that we have a moral responsibility to save everybody . Does that mean we should
wait until all countries should take responsibility or should we just save them ?

Picture the boat again , 100 people are drowning , you have to save them all , but you only have space for 20 . Do you save them all ?
do you take on 20 ? do you leave the rest 80 to drown ? do you tell them we have to wait for the next boat to save 20 ? while they are drowning  ?  How do you decide who to save ?



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Unemployment rates have sucked in about every country over the last few years. The bit of money that we now have to spend on refugees will not make that much of a dent, as I explained earlier. It's true that for Sweden, the refugee crisis accounts for about 4 percent of expenses, which is admittedly problematic. But in the longer run it may well help our economies. You know this too, because you just explained it with the story about the 60's.

Yes we took them in when there was space for them . We dont have now . We have swedish people who dont have jobs now . adding people who dont speak swedish , dont have training , dont have homes wont solve the unemployment rate , it will only add to it .

Sure maybe one day we might need work force again , but its not right now .

 
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The article I read was actually in a Dutch paper. Sure abuse gets reported, but not something minor like this, on the front page in a different country. It might have made a local paper at best.

Where do you live that child abuse / child pornography is minor ?


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Edit: Forgot to address the smuggler. What exactly is your point here? Is that kid who drowned any less innocent because of his father being a smuggler (a profession which, again, ceases to exist the moment the EU amends its policies)? It's only right that his father's hustle is simply not as newsworthy as that picture

Yeah it was a example of how media (not all) is " Pro " refugee . They used this child as a example and used the father as a symbol for how humanit is failing . But infact there were 100s of kids washing up on the shore before this and nobody cared then . Its kinda like cecil the lion , Nobody gave a shit before a white dentist shot a lion with a name . and now when the story has died down nobody cares again . Or Kony 2012 .

Media used the kid and the father , and when it came out he was a trafficker most media didnt report on it

Alan

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2015, 10:06:53 AM »
 You are allowed your minimal wage in Sweden only because the rest of the world is exploited. You can pretend like it doesn't concern you, but we are all culpable. And your analogy with WW2 doesn't really work, as the war isn't going right now, but the economic exploitation of the rest of the world is. Having said that, it is our duty to be antifascist precisely because of what happened. But we're getting off topic.

(And besides, no one was talking about the European lower classes, but about the mega rich. There is a difference. Also, legal =/= legitimate. Just because something's legal doesn't make it right. There are countless examples where something was legal, when in fact it was criminal.)

Here is another map that shows how many Syrian refugees there are in Syria and the neighbouring countries. This was one of your initial complaints, right? Only a fraction are coming to Europe.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS3_hFiWsAEUnWk.jpg:large


And yes, when 2000000000000000 Syrian refugees come to Sweden, all the Swedes will be forced to walk into the sea and drown to make room for the Syrians. So just vote for the far right to prevent this tragedy.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 10:11:08 AM by Alan »
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excitableboy

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2015, 10:47:42 AM »
Brilliant. The point is Sweden is rich and comfortable, in a broader sense of the word, as your rant confirms. I think we've established that your country is taking on too many refugees, in relation to other countries anyway. But the dilemma between either helping homeless Swedes or homeless refugees is a false one I believe. Never said that about the moral obligation, only that the tipping point is not near. Unemployment rates will probably peak for a while, maybe homelessness too. Not that shocking.
   I was talking about newspapers, not child abuse. And you fail to explain how the father's business takes anything away from the tragedy. It only adds to it if you ask me. Hope that clears it up, because I'm done talking about Sweden.  ;D


Tufty

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2015, 11:32:30 AM »
 Of course you are more rich than most Asians, Latin Americans, Africans (who are the vast majority of global population) when having the minimum wage in West.  Are you that dumbass? However as Alan said yes you are benefiting from that because they are impoverished so that your multinationals at west can have access to cheap materials and labour offshore to give you affordable products that you can buy with your Swedish minimum wage that they give you in sweden. Because if they paid properly for these materials and labour they would have to pay you more to afford these.

 Just compare your GDP per capita of your country with your wage and you have a conservative estimate on where you stand (because this takes into account even kids deserving these money as pocket money). For example in Greece the minimum wage gives you about 6000 euros which is unlivable and more than three times lower than the GDP per capita of 20000. I assure you nobody makes more than the GDP per capita here unless he owns a company or his skills are that valuable that a company pays him that much (this means that the company makes multiple times his wage from his work). I assure you the latter is rather rare.

You dont have to be a genius to understand that I am talking about company owners, investors, bankers, buisinessemen and professional politicians.

PS I am amazed that most people who defend capitalism dont have a clue how it works both locally and globally.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 12:01:36 PM by Tufty »

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2015, 12:25:50 PM »
the scary part is that a lot of ISIS are amongst the refugees to establish terrorist centers around Europe. real refugees don't have money to make this trip let alone expensive phones and daily withdrawls from the atm. smugglers aren't humanitarians. and ISIS are paying them to send their warriors. germany that's taking in 200'000 good luck.

anyway this conflict made me lose any respect for mainstream media and the west, sorry.
look how logic is completely absent from what's going on:
1. usa supports rebels in lybia, syria and iraq
2. out of these rebels ISIS assembles
3. ISIS starts fighting a war
4. people start fleeing from ISIS, not the government forces.
5. some of the people die fleeing
6. let;s take revenge on assad and syrian army.

fuck the US govt for constantly destabilizing the middle east world just to protect their economic interests/ allys and weakening their enemies. fuck saudi for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 12:29:47 PM by underknowledge »

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2015, 12:27:18 PM »
i am not even gonna start joining this conversation, i live in the south-eastern part of austria and the situation at our border is just ridiculous. theres thousands of refugees, not even closely enough infrastructure or helpers, let alone official staff. this whole crisis has been on everybodys mind here for some time, and of course the logical reaction was to just vote right wing again.
what i am actually trying to say is: maybe read something else than your standard newspaper. have a look if the numbers you read are actually proven. dont believe the populist hype. maybe visit a place where refugees actually live, you`ll see that its way different than how it is portrayed.
also: put tracer on ignore.

Tufty

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2015, 12:32:23 PM »
the scary part is that a lot of ISIS are amongst the refugees to establish terrorist centers around Europe. real refugees don't have money to make this trip let alone expensive phones and daily withdrawls from the atm. smugglers are humanitarians. and ISIS are paying them to send their warriors. germany that's taking in 200'000 good luck.


On the contrary only middle class SYrians can afford the price of smugglers. Poor people are forced to stay there and join either ISIS (formerly supported by the West and now backlashed as muslim Nazi version) or assad forces (pro Russia) or rebels (supported by West). I have talked with some syrians that passed from my city which is major harbor, they dont see the reason in joining any of these factions so they flee as they ve lost most of their property and their home was reduced to rumble. Some fled early enough to save some of their belongings, but they dont have the right to work in Jordan, Lebanon or Turkey even if they are being welcome there so they flee in europe and hope for work permission.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 12:37:06 PM by Tufty »

Sk.A.T.A.N

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2015, 05:31:43 PM »

the scary part is that a lot of ISIS are amongst the refugees to establish terrorist centers around Europe. real refugees don't have money to make this trip let alone expensive phones and daily withdrawls from the atm. smugglers are humanitarians. and ISIS are paying them to send their warriors. germany that's taking in 200'000 good luck.


Do you really believe in that? I cant be a real refuge if i'm rich?! You really think this people are all terrorists?! Fear campaign is working i guess.

R.I.P RUSTY/FRIP

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"You were such a shitty parent that your kid couldn't even make it to term A guy who killed his child before it could be born because he was so shitty didn't do anything wrong.You know how the rest of us became positive members of society BY NOT BEING PIECES OF SHIT IN THE FIRST PLACE"-Ronald Reagon

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2015, 07:20:20 PM »

Expand Quote
the scary part is that a lot of ISIS are amongst the refugees to establish terrorist centers around Europe. real refugees don't have money to make this trip let alone expensive phones and daily withdrawls from the atm. smugglers are humanitarians. and ISIS are paying them to send their warriors. germany that's taking in 200'000 good luck.

[close]

Do you really believe in that? I cant be a real refuge if i'm rich?! You really think this people are all terrorists?! Fear campaign is working i guess.
Every time someone talks about how A) Poor people don't have smart phones or B) That all Syrians are poor, they simply let you know that they don't know what they are talking about.
Live in a mudhut somewhere in rural Afghanistan? Ok. Still have a smart phone...
Not to forget the fact that tons of Syrians are really well educated.

Sure, the sheer number of refugees is a problem, but the fact that they have smart phones or aren't poor isn't a part of the problem.

Tracer

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2015, 11:22:28 PM »
Expand Quote

Expand Quote
the scary part is that a lot of ISIS are amongst the refugees to establish terrorist centers around Europe. real refugees don't have money to make this trip let alone expensive phones and daily withdrawls from the atm. smugglers are humanitarians. and ISIS are paying them to send their warriors. germany that's taking in 200'000 good luck.

[close]

Do you really believe in that? I cant be a real refuge if i'm rich?! You really think this people are all terrorists?! Fear campaign is working i guess.
[close]
Every time someone talks about how A) Poor people don't have smart phones or B) That all Syrians are poor, they simply let you know that they don't know what they are talking about.
Live in a mudhut somewhere in rural Afghanistan? Ok. Still have a smart phone...
Not to forget the fact that tons of Syrians are really well educated.

Sure, the sheer number of refugees is a problem, but the fact that they have smart phones or aren't poor isn't a part of the problem.
I know people that went to Syrian schools all in English. Not about to say Europe is going to explode, it's basically a bunch of fear-mongering media stuff. People just looking to hate, if you hate England or Sweden just leave, you have a Euro passport (which ALL Canadians are all jealous of)

We can't even work in the USA without endless applications, go live your Euro lives and stop complaining

weedpop

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2015, 12:14:44 AM »
Hearing someone complain that Sweden, with one of the highest standards of living in the world, is going to be ruined by refugees taking all the resources is kind of hilarious.

It's true that Sweden is taking in a disproportionate amount of refugees, which is something other countries should be helping out with. It's also true though that the reason Sweden and other European countries (really all countries) are experiencing rising unemployment is that a huge amount of the worlds wealth is currently sitting idle in the bank accounts of various large corporations and private individuals that don't want to invest in creating new economic activity because it doesn't offer a high enough return. They might not be breaking any laws doing this, but that's partly because they've designed the system in their favour. Again, it's a 'legal' system, but I don't think it's moral, nor is it a logical way to use our planet's resources.

There is another option between leaving all the refugees to starve at sea or letting them in and giving them Swedish people's jobs - that is to use the available resources to create jobs/infrastructure for everyone.

Monty, since you think it's immoral to take money from people who haven't committed a crime, I will also assume that you're totally against taxation. Again, this would be odd since you live in Sweden, a country with one of the highest tax rates.

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2015, 01:50:25 AM »
We don't have  much higher tax rates than the US, its just that we benefit more from them here in Sweden.
We have the money and the securitysystem that allowes us to take the huge amount of refugees here, everyone might not fit in the bigger cities but there are smaller towns that have a lot of apts that need to be rented out.
What a lot of people here doesn't understand is that the refugees actually creates a lot of new jobs and the money it costs us now will be brought back in form of taxes ect.



refugees welcome, fuck racism

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2015, 05:18:40 AM »

There is another option between leaving all the refugees to starve at sea or letting them in and giving them Swedish people's jobs - that is to use the available resources to create jobs/infrastructure for everyone.

Monty, since you think it's immoral to take money from people who haven't committed a crime, I will also assume that you're totally against taxation. Again, this would be odd since you live in Sweden, a country with one of the highest tax rates.

Swedish unemployment rate is about 7,8 % now . Its been around 5-10 % since the 80s . Id like to hear your guys ideas how to create more jobs with added refugees to the 7.8 % . I find it strange that sweden cant create these jobs for the swedes , but when we get thousands of refugees we suddenly can create these jobs


And no Im not against tax , and I like it when the tax is high to be honest . Im not super into capitalism , I would say Im more of a socialist . I dont mind being taxed high since I know it goes to hospitals , schools , fixing roads and a bunch of other stuff .

What tufty and some others were talking about is not taxation , its stealing money from people .
The examples he has given so far are his definition of " Assholes " who decide to move factories or create jobs elswhere then greece
and this makes them evil and we have the right to take their money

Im curious who gets to decide whom we get to take money from aswell . You know it always ends well when you set up a system where 1 or more people get to decide money issues like this ,

And  oldeath , just because you dont want 80 thousand or 200 thousands of syrians comeing to sweden , or france  doesnt make you a racist .


excitableboy

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2015, 05:37:33 AM »
Expand Quote

There is another option between leaving all the refugees to starve at sea or letting them in and giving them Swedish people's jobs - that is to use the available resources to create jobs/infrastructure for everyone.

Monty, since you think it's immoral to take money from people who haven't committed a crime, I will also assume that you're totally against taxation. Again, this would be odd since you live in Sweden, a country with one of the highest tax rates.
[close]

Swedish unemployment rate is about 7,8 % now . Its been around 5-10 % since the 80s . Id like to hear your guys ideas how to create more jobs with added refugees to the 7.8 % . I find it strange that sweden cant create these jobs for the swedes , but when we get thousands of refugees we suddenly can create these jobs


And no Im not against tax , and I like it when the tax is high to be honest . Im not super into capitalism , I would say Im more of a socialist . I dont mind being taxed high since I know it goes to hospitals , schools , fixing roads and a bunch of other stuff .

What tufty and some others were talking about is not taxation , its stealing money from people .
The examples he has given so far are his definition of " Assholes " who decide to move factories or create jobs elswhere then greece
and this makes them evil and we have the right to take their money

Im curious who gets to decide whom we get to take money from aswell . You know it always ends well when you set up a system where 1 or more people get to decide money issues like this ,

And  oldeath , just because you dont want 80 thousand or 200 thousands of syrians comeing to sweden , or france  doesnt make you a racist .


Since reading isn't your strong suit. I'll try it this way once more:
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Migrants and Refugees (HBO)

The right you are talking about is a legal right, while Tufty and some others are talking about what is morally right. The fact is that immigration without fail boosts the economy. And everybody pretty much agrees that Sweden takes in too many, relatively.

Tufty

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2015, 06:17:06 AM »
 Yeah but lets not forget that the rich are far more likely  to affect legislation in their favour than poor people. So the legality argument is straight ridiculous and this is the reason why legality is million miles away from morallity.

 Also I dont think that immigrants are not wanted. I mean Europe is aging and if new workforce doesnt come the whole thing will fail. So why the fuss? Because right wings are in charge in Europe and their voters are not the most foreign-friendly persons. Also an immigrant that feels unwanted and has to fight hard in order to be equal with locals is more easily exploited, working underpaid and not complaining. Also having immigrants in your country is always a scapegoat in reserve every time your system fails and you dont want to take the blame and change it. Its no secret that germany alone needs several millions of new workforce because german population is aging, and someone needs to support it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 06:31:32 AM by Tufty »

excitableboy

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2015, 06:24:52 AM »
Yeah but lets not forget that the rich are far more likely  to affect legislation in their favour than poor people. So the legality argument is straight ridiculous and this is the reason why legality is million miles away from morallity.
It sure is ridiculous, was just clearing up the distinction for Monty.

AnotherHardDayAtTheOffice

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Re: Refugee crisis in Europe.
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2015, 08:35:02 AM »
the scary part is that a lot of ISIS are amongst the refugees to establish terrorist centers around Europe. real refugees don't have money to make this trip let alone expensive phones and daily withdrawls from the atm. smugglers aren't humanitarians. and ISIS are paying them to send their warriors. germany that's taking in 200'000 good luck.

anyway this conflict made me lose any respect for mainstream media and the west, sorry.
look how logic is completely absent from what's going on:
1. usa supports rebels in lybia, syria and iraq
2. out of these rebels ISIS assembles
3. ISIS starts fighting a war
4. people start fleeing from ISIS, not the government forces.
5. some of the people die fleeing
6. let;s take revenge on assad and syrian army.

fuck the US govt for constantly destabilizing the middle east world just to protect their economic interests/ allys and weakening their enemies. fuck saudi for obvious reasons.

This is bullshit. German Intelligent Service just suggested yesterday that there's a total of 10, I repeat ten, suspects for Islamist activities among the 1,000,000 refugees who entered Germany. And we're talking about suspects here, not convicts.

Why is there so little terrorists among refugees? First of all, there's a lot of Germans who joined ISIS. And no, not just immigrants, a lot of them were actually raised as Christians. They can return to Germany whenever they want, because they have a German passport. If ISIS wants to smuggle people into Germany, they can just put them on a plane and fly them to Germany safely. There's no need for a dangerous journey across half of Europe by foot. However, and that's the second point, there is no evidence suggesting that ISIS is interesting in operations in Europe right now. They're called "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria" for a reason. Unlike Al-Qaida (for example), it hasn't ever been their objective to terrorize the West. Quite to the contrary, they've always wanted to establish a Caliphate in the Middle East. Thirdly, refugees in Europe are fleeing Islamist terror. Islamists for the large part stayed in the area and fight for one of the many groups right now. ISIS, for example, kills people fleeing their areas. I'm not sure you're aware of that, but ISIS is at war and they need soldiers pretty badly.

Everything you say is standard right-wing lies. Now you're gonna claim that I got all of this from Western media. And we all know that Western media is just spreading pro-refugee lies, right? However, I also work with refugees and have some first-hand experience. I haven't ever met (nor heard from anyone else who has) a refugee who was pro-Islamist, pro-ISIS, pro-Taliban or just a "conservative" Muslim in any way. What's your source by the way? Some right-wing conspiracy-theory website? Russia Today?

Your logic is deeply flawed though. While the US is indeed responsible for ISIS in some way, it's a completely different story. The US actually never supported Sunni groups (such as ISIS) in Iraq. To the contrary, they put Shiite politicians in power who in turn suppressed Sunnis. ISIS consists of a lot of formers Sunni generals under Saddam Hussein who went underground to found a new resistance group: ISIS. So while the US politics in the Middle East were incredibly short-sighted and biased, it wasn't a willful decision to assist in the creation of ISIS. The US also never supported Islamist groups in Iraq or Syria. They've supported the Free Syrian Army (FSA) since day one, but not too much, because they have some ties to Al-Nusra (which in turn is linked to Al-Qaida). If you have followed the war in Syria at all, you'd know that the FSA is not exactly "winning" that war. I mean nobody's really winning there, but the FSA is actually losing ground. Assad (backed by Russia and Iran) and ISIS (backed by the Gulf states) however, aren't doing too bad. All in all, say what you want about the US, but they're not exactly the strongest player in this conflict. I'm sure that's gonna mess with whatever conspiracy theory you believe in, but US influence around the globe has suffered A LOT in recent years. They're not controlling the world. Other countries have made their homework as well.

As for Syrians and their cellphones... I can't believe that's still an actual argument. Who said refugees are necessarily dirt poor? They're fleeing war and conflict. Syria wasn't a poor country before the war.