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At what point do the Proud Boys and other storming the capitol get labeled ‘fascist’?
I hate Trump and the worst elements of American culture he let flourish, but i was hesitant to call him a fascist. A lot because some professors who study this said that while Trump ticked a lot of the boxes, he specifically lacked ideology, and a militant ‘Brownshirt’ group to enforce his claims.
Well, Trump’s ideology is just pure narcissism. And the Proud Boys are clearly the brownshirts. As well as the police who support Trump and enabled the protesters.
Fascism is here on full display. And its being coddled.
here's something from r/askhistorians that explains contemporary American fascism as something uniquely American and unlike other fascists groups. You say that he lacked ideology, but MAGA is the ideology, it, like the ideology of other fascists, reaches for the past or a period of earlier purity.
"I can't take credit for the below, but am posting on behalf of /u/commiespaceinvader who worked on this but had to go to sleep.
Fascism is by its nature, by its design a violent movement and so it is no stranger to both coups and other attempts to take political power and political space by violence. Indeed, violence and its public display is an essential ideological feature of fascism as a political ideology.
Unlike the advocates of liberal democracy, it is not reason or modernization, which drives forward and unlike communists, it is not material relationships. For the Fascist the engine of history is conflict, whether between nations, peoples or races. History is a constant struggle in which a community of mythical qualities needs to assert itself in order to gain dominance over others. Dominance is the core goal and must be asserted. And only if the right and rightful people dominate will a golden age begin.
The political utopia of the Fascist differs greatly from liberal or communist visions of utopia: Both of the latter are built on a vision of a utopian future that needs to be built and achieved. The Fascist on the other hand looks to the past for its utopia since most fantasies of dominance are historically justified. Whether it is the return to the Roman Empire or the mythical Lebensraum of German kings, all Fascist utopian visions are built upon a return to a hazy, mythological past in which the world was right. And such a return must by necessity be a violent one, one that engages in the eternal conflict with the supposedly sinister forces that have lead to the lapse and prevent a return.
According to scholar of fascism, Robert Paxton, it is not an ideology like others but understands itself as a political practice more than anything else:
In a way unlike the classical "isms", the rightness of fascism does not depend on the truth of any proposition advanced in its name. Fascism is "true" insofar as it helps fulfill the destiny of a chosen race or people or blood, locked with other peoples in a Darwinian struggle, and not in the light of some abstract universal reason. (...) The truth was whatever permitted the new fascist man (and woman) to dominate others, and whatever made the chosen people triumph.
Fascism rested not upon the truth of its doctrine but upon the leader's mystical union with historic destiny of his people. (...) The fascist leader wanted to bring his people into a higher realm of politics that they would experience sensually: the warmth of belonging to a race now fully aware of its identity, historic destiny, and power; the excitement of participating in a vast collective enterprise; the gratification of submerging oneself in a wave of shared feelings, and of sacrificing one's petty concerns for the group's good; and the thrill of domination. Fascism deliberate replacement of reasoned debate with immediate sensual experience transformed politics, as the exiled cultural critic Walter Benjamin was first to point, into aesthetics. And the ultimate fascist aesthetic experience, Benjamin warned in 1936, was war.
Fascist leaders made no secret of having no program. (...) Fascism radical instrumentalization of truth explains why fascists never bothered to write any casuistical literature when they changed their program as they did often and without compunction. Stalin was forever writing to prove that his policies accorded somehow with the principles of Marx and Lenin; Hitler and Mussolini never bothered with any such theoretical justification. In the same vein, Paxton goes on to define Fascism as
a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.
Lastly I’ll leave you with what Robert Paxton writes about Fascism and America:
The United States itself has never been exempt from fascism. (...) Much more dangerous [than movements like the American Nazi Party, which utilize already established tenants and creeds from Europe] are movements that employ authentically American themes in ways that resemble fascism functionally. The Klan revived in the 1920s, took on virulent anti-Semitism, and spread to the cities of the Middle West. In the 1930s, Father Charles E. Coughlin gathered a radio audience estimated at forty million around anti-communist, anti-Wall Street, pro-soft money, and – after 1938 – anti-Semtic message broadcast from his church in the outskirts of Detroit. (...) Today a "politics of resentment" rooted in authentic American piety and nativism sometimes leads to violence against some of the very same "internal enemies" once targeted by the Nazis, such as homosexuals and defenders of abortion rights.
Of course the United States would have to suffer catastrophic setbacks and polarization for these fringe groups to find powerful allies and enter the mainstream. I half expected to see emergence after 1968 a movement of national reunification, regeneration, and purification directed against hirsute antiwar protesters, black radicals, and "degenerate" artists. I thought that some of the Vietnam veterans might form analogs to the Freikorps of 1919 Germany and Itlaian Arditi, and attack youths whose demonstrations on the steps of the Pentagon had "stabbed them in the back". Fortunately, I was wrong (so far). (...)
The language and symbols of an authentic American fascism would, of course, have little to do with the original European models. They would have to be familiar and reassuring to loyal Americans as the language and symbols of the original fascism were familiar and reassuring to many Italians and Germans. (...) No swastikas in an American fascism, but Stars and Stripes (or Stars and Bars) and Christian corsses. No fascist salute, but mass recitation of the pledge of allegiance. These symbols contain no whiff of fascism in themselves, of course, but an American fascism would transform them into obligatory litmus tests for detecting the internal enemy."
I'd say this movement also looks to Japan as a model for their ideologies. 4chan was and is a major hangout for these people, and 4chan modeled itself on the Japanese website 2chan, which is infamous for being heavily used by netto-uyoku (Japan's far right wing) who are constantly spouting ultra-nationalistic rhetoric and racist tropes about Koreans and Chinese. It idealizes Japan for its ethnic homogeneity and upholding of traditional values. It sees it as a place that hasn't been corrupted as badly by Western "degeneracy," such as feminism and multiculturalism, which they blame on Jewish people for starting and liberal whites for continuing. A lot of people on 4chan, naturally, are weebs, many of whom feel alienated and disenfranchised by modern Western society, hence the Dark Enlightenment, Gamergate, MGTOW, alt right, etc. In a way, this is also romanticizing the past, as they think the current greatness of Japan is something that the West could have achieved too if it hadn't been for all the "degeneracy" that's been going on here for the last 100 or so years. This is also why so many alt right memes have anime and Japanese terms. I'm not sure if 4chan's role in all this current chaos was completely organic, and the product of disaffected weebs stirring shit up online, or if there were also some foreign agents at work who targeted them for being a demographic (predominantly angry, lonely young men) that's vulnerable to propaganda. Using anime and memes also appeals to many people by looking cute, friendly, and humorous, not that dissimilar to the way tobacco companies used to advertise to children with cartoon characters. But, the futility and impertinence of a country like America, a federal democratic republic whose population is composed mostly of immigrants, aspiring to be like Japan, a mostly homogenous ethnostate governed by a constitutional monarchy, seems lost on these idiots.
only in america could a political faction mobilize and storm a capitol only to be so devoid of actual political thought they just take selfies until the cops make them leave.
i feel like most political mobs would at least issue a communique, give demands etc. these jamokes just turned the senate into a monster truck rally for a little while and split.
the country is too dead minded and devoid of imagination to even attempt political upheaval.
Their political thought isn't very well articulated by them all the time, but it's basically white supremacy, sexism, and homophobia. If they find some type of leader or group who can articulate it better and mobilize them more efficiently, they could be far more dangerous. It sucks that this kind of radical ideology received a major boost in recent years when it was resurrected on the Internet. Now it's become a huge threat to our future.
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only in america could a political faction mobilize and storm a capitol only to be so devoid of actual political thought they just take selfies until the cops make them leave.
i feel like most political mobs would at least issue a communique, give demands etc. these jamokes just turned the senate into a monster truck rally for a little while and split.
the country is too dead minded and devoid of imagination to even attempt political upheaval.
seriously, right? any questions the rest of the world had about what exactly Americans mean when we talk about ignorant, fuck-wit, white trash amongst us, should have had any questions about this group answered yesterday...
...which isn't to say that they aren't dangerous and a bunch of fucking rabid animals...they are indeed, and in this regard--perhaps ironically--i received another 500 rounds of 7.62 x 39 yesterday that i found fairly cheap recently i'm happy to say.
the conversation regarding fascism going on here is important and i'm looking forward to having the time to read through this thread--fascism and fascists are not easy to define...for instance,
"Fascism has an enigmatic countenance because in it appears the most counterpoised contents. It asserts authoritarianism and organizes rebellion. If fights against contemporary democracy and. on the other hand, does not believe in the restoration of any past rule. It seems to pose itself as the forge of a strong state, and uses means most conducive to its dissolution, as if it were a destructive faction or a secret society. Whichever way we approach fascism we find that it is simultaneously one thing and the contrary, it is A and not A..." (Jose Ortega y Gasset)
that's actually the epigraph from Fascism: A Very Short Introduction which i've encountered in some excellent courses and which i've used when dealing with history and texts where fascism is a focus in classes i've taught:
hope everyone is safe and well
That part about fascism being enigmatic applies perfectly to the alt right. If you ever check out their forums, they are always bandying about contradictory statements, such as "this is satire" and "we are a peaceful group," all while seriously inciting a race war. And now they are saying that antifa is responsible for what happened yesterday when they know damn well it wasn't. The violent members of their group(s), and the mayhem they cause, are tacitly accepted as being necessary agents to achieving their goals. All of this seems to be a way for them to escape accountability and confuse outsiders while also signaling to the in-group who knows that it's an inside joke and they are dead serious.
Sure, there isn't one group operating in a linear fashion, but lets remember when Steve Bannon said that the job of the right was to "Flood the zone with shit." The systems of operation are all based on absolute misinformation peddled by folks/groups who know well that they're peddling lies. Numerous, seemingly incoherent groups, make a harder target to take down while the US system continues to crumble. It's not just about the brainwashed, radicalized individuals fighting on the ground, it's the right wing think tanks and power brokers. Again, consider what it means to "flood the zone with shit." There's an almagamation of ideologies at play- Christian Nationalists (evangelicals mostly, who have been gaining power since the 80s), White Nationalists (overt white supremacists, open militia, people who openly show their beliefs through tattoos, gang affiliation), Boogaloo (anti government/pro civil/race war), Qanon (Right wing anti system group that has pulled in people from all walks of life to peddle fascist rhetoric while convincing them they're freedom fighters). In other times, members of these groups might not necessarily get together, but now, they're finding common ground, mostly through the expansive fight wing social media/media scape, and taking action. None of these people are "shit posting" and they never have been.
ALL of these factions have members operating within the government, military, law enforcement, and civil society. This isn't ending any time soon and it's only going to get crazier and more violent. Keep your eyes open to this shit and stay safe
Yep. What started out as Internet "trolling" on places like 4chan, mostly by weebs and other incels, has grown to encompass traditional far right groups and garden variety racists, which are abundant in America. It's pretty fucked they've infiltrated so deeply into American society. I'm a little worried for the future but also optimistic that the good part of humanity will prevail.