Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 27894 times)

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Chris

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2011, 08:34:06 PM »
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Dude, when I was talking to the lawyer he was getting so psyched.  He was writing shit down as I just rambled on.  "I basically want to be shoved out on a pyre and torched.  We don't have to have my friends shoot flaming arrows at me as much as I want that.  I don't think I know any talented archers.  Basically find a way to have me set on fire in a lake and then I want there to be a 3 day party."

The dude was SO psyched and a week later he called me all bummed out, "I'm sorry sir, they said that the human body is made up of some things that could cause some serious problems with the ecosystem.  I am really sorry, is there anything else that could come close?" 
"No, but it's ok, just torch me and donate my shit to people who need it.  Can I still get the 3 day party?"
"Yes, that's not an issue."
"Ok, awesome.  We're good."
[close]

thank you for sharing that with us, i think hate gets this thread better than all of us
[close]

dont kid yourself brother, i am living the dream. but hate! knows whats up for sure.
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What's funny is that while I prescribe to that Agnostic Atheism definition, I sure do love reading and learning about religions.  I've read the Bible, the Qu'ran, parts of the Torah, the Baghavad Gita (sp?) and multiple other religious texts a ton of times and I think they're kinda neat, strange, little time capsules.  I always see these Afghans living in absolute squalor with nothing going for them and they just believe so fucking hard in Allah, Muhammad and Ali.  It fascinates me.


Some peoples faith is strong regardless of their living conditions, i find it admirable.

Inanimate Object

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #151 on: July 15, 2011, 09:52:18 PM »
I find it confusing that people are capable of believing in magical sky grandpa, but I do foolish things sometimes too.

weedpop

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #152 on: July 15, 2011, 11:09:26 PM »
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A belief that is not justified will have little chance in court. Take the Scopes trial, for example. It's a good one.

Nobody can DO whatever they want, but believing in whatever they want is still fair game.

I never said those people were atheists, I said they were following secular interests.

You can say they were evil men, but on the other hand they were just willing to kill and send people to die for what they believed in.

Are human beings normally rational and intelligent? Thomas Hobbes would disagree.

Who says Hitler and Stalin weren't normally rational? They were simply men with an ungodly amount of power, doing what history tells us men with that much power tend to do.
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Nazism (especially the racial component) was a profoundly irrational philosophy, and Stalin was a paranoid egomaniac. Look into how he handled The leadup and initial reaction to operation Barberossa. An excess of power does tend to make people do irrational things - usually with the help of numerous psychological and sociological factors relating to large, powerful autocracies - but I think its safe to say that personality as well as the irrational beliefs that both of them held contributed greatly to their actions.

Humans are certainly not 100% rational beings but the last thing we need at this stage in our development as a species is another faulty belief system to keep the wool pulled over the eyes of much of the population in regards to important social issues. Sure, some of the first academics may have been monks but I hardly think that intelligent design debate is helping kids learn more about biology. Just look at the history of the enlightenment; when reason and a mechanistic outlook on nature started to threaten Christianity as the dominant ideology of the time (at least among a certain class), the church started condemning and banning every science book in sight.
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In hindsight, yeah, Nazism didn't make a whole lot of sense but back then they thought they were being scientific. Stalin must've been simply doing whatever it took to secure his power, paranoid or not.
When it comes to the enlightenment, the Royal Society and the 'Invisible College' might have had its roots in a Rosicicrucian Enlightenment. Frances Yates wrote about this sort of thing in many of her books. When you talk about "the church" I'm guessing you mean the Catholic Church. They''re not the only ones in history to ban books.

Eeeeh, maybe the nazi racial researchers thought they were being scientific but they were mostly searching for "evidence" (much of it fictitious or heavily skewed by interpretation) to support their pre-existing beliefs, which is obviously contrary to the scientific method. It's entirely possible that they could have been doing this for a rational reason - i.e. to avoid reprisals from higher-ups which would inevitably result if they turned in research that didn't fit in with their ideology - but its likely that some of them were at least as deluded as Hitler if not more. Pseudoscience + sincere belief doesn't = real science (but you know this).

I was being a bit facetious with that "the church" comment. Religious organizations certainly contributed to the enlightenment in a very real sense but what I'm getting at is the oppositional dynamic that developed when scientific materialism began to form itself into an holistic and semi-exclusive worldview that necessarily contradicted religious dogmas. The contradictions may not have been acknowledged in these mystical, fraternal orders (such as the rosicrucians) but I'm sure there's lots of other examples of religious groups - that is, those actually concerned with tending to the flock, rather than religiously inspired secret societies - condemning and persecuting scholars who contradicted a certain aspect of their theology.

I'll have to check out some of Frances Yates books, though. I've always been interested by hermetic societies and their contributions to social and political history.

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2011, 12:17:30 AM »

  the oppositional dynamic that developed when scientific materialism began to form itself into an holistic and semi-exclusive worldview that necessarily contradicted religious dogmas. The contradictions may not have been acknowledged in these mystical, fraternal orders (such as the rosicrucians) but I'm sure there's lots of other examples of religious groups - that is, those actually concerned with tending to the flock, rather than religiously inspired secret societies - condemning and persecuting scholars who contradicted a certain aspect of their theology.

I'll have to check out some of Frances Yates books, though. I've always been interested by hermetic societies and their contributions to social and political history.

The fact that literal (and some not so literal) interpretations  of Judeo-Christian dogma became readily falsifiable is definitely at the crux of this oppositional dynamic. Sounds a bit like Hegel's historical dialectic.  I think people acting in the name of science and religious institutions have "tended the flock" both successfully and unsuccessfully. It's when either one begins to feel existentially threatened (personally I don't see a need for that fear) that they begin to have an agenda seeking to thoroughly discredit and exclude the other, and thereby instilling a bias in their adherents. Although I suppose that depending on your experiences and how you grew up, chances are you might find yourself having a bias one way or another.



And it's 'Dame' Frances Yates!


------










"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."


"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"

This meant, to Nietzsche, looking for foundations that went deeper than Christian values. He would find a basis in the "will to power" that he described as "the essence of reality."

"In Kant's terms, a good will is a will whose decisions are wholly determined by moral demands or as he often refers to this, by the Moral Law. Human beings view this Law as a constraint on their desires, and hence a will in which the Moral Law is decisive is motivated by the thought of duty. A holy or divine will, if it exists, though good, would not be good because it is motivated by thoughts of duty. A holy will would be entirely free from desires that might operate independently of morality. It is the presence of desires that could operate independently of moral demands that makes goodness in human beings a constraint, an essential element of the idea of �duty�. So in analyzing unqualified goodness as it occurs in imperfectly rational creatures such as ourselves, we are investigating the idea of being motivated by the thought that we are constrained to act in certain ways that we might not want to, or the thought that we have moral duties."


First Church of the Almighty Dollar

Stained glass in the lobby of the Standard Chartered Bank Building. Standard Chartered is one of the three banks that print Hong Kong Dollars, which they apparently consider a divine duty.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 10:08:07 PM by David »

Chris

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2011, 06:17:02 PM »
I could same the same for atheism.

NickDagger

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2011, 06:30:05 PM »
David, could you try summing up what you're trying to say in a few sentences?
"DIS YA BOI NICK DAGGAL" -Arto Saari


frig deuce

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2011, 06:36:36 PM »
'Religion' in its essence is just a bunch of stories, metaphors and statements meant to give you a way to live properly. Religions have come and gone - some longer than others - and will continue to do so (but hopefully we'll all smarten up and just live "as is" one day, but that day is no where close).

This is my "religion":

Love. Do your best. Eat right (vegetarian/vegan). Exercise daily (yoga). Your neighbors are not strangers but (if aren't already) should be your friends - same with that creepy guy walking down your block. Read. Enlighten yourself. Find a purpose greater than yourself.

That's the cliff's notes.

There's no point wondering if theres a god or not. If (s)he (it) does come around we'll sit down and talk with him/her/it then. End of story. I have more important things to do and think about.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 07:10:46 PM by frig deuce »
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Greg Ostertag

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2011, 11:34:44 PM »
Cold Ghengis

annoyedwithskating

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2011, 01:59:59 PM »
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I could same the same for atheism.
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Yeah, you could, and then I would point out that most prisoners with a low education believe in a god and most educated scientists do not (there is actually a statistic about that somewhere) and that places that are more advanced in the world place less importance on religion while third world countries place more.  I would say that over time, evolving minds find that they don't need a god to make sense of things.  God just doesn't equal enlightenment to me, at all.  Enlightenment would be more along the lines of accepting that other people believe other things, and frankly not many religious people are like that, otherwise religious debates wouldn't happen so frequently or be driven with as much emotion.

after enough thinking, you realize how full of shit people are. then you realize how full of shit you are.  beliefs in things that make no sense fall by the way side.

sophisto000

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2011, 02:06:10 PM »
but guys....do all dogs really go to heaven???

4LOM

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2011, 04:00:41 PM »
but guys....do all dogs really go to heaven???

My dog ain't going to heaven if I have anything to say about it.


Who says beliefs can't be private? Whether they're right or wrong, a person can believe in what they want.

Whether the belief is scientific, pseudoscientific, or religious, a person has a right to think however they want, even if their beliefs are not justified.

If you want to bring up issues of social harm, then I'd remind you that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and other figure heads massacred and went to war over what were largely secular interests.

Religious belief and monasticism gave rise to scholasticism in Europe.

As long as beliefs have public effects, then they're not merely a private concern.
Religious conviction (often) leads to public behavior.
So, religious belief is not merely a private concern.

Where does the argument go wrong?

Wouldn't you criticize the child molester for their beliefs?
Or would show them respect when they claim, "I know there's not good evidence that children benefit from being molested, but my belief is a matter of faith."



You're right I was being a tad fascist; German blood.


« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 04:02:32 PM by 4LOM »

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2011, 03:14:56 PM »
David, could you try summing up what you're trying to say in a few sentences?

Someone said earlier that the universe is so vast and mysterious that how dare we pretend to know how it all really is. Somehow we still try, it's like the human condition or something.

Science and technology are advancing so fast that me might one day reach the Singularity. Yet it's a pity that economics, justice and politics have not advanced as much. At least not in its praxis.


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but guys....do all dogs really go to heaven???
[close]

My dog ain't going to heaven if I have anything to say about it.

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Who says beliefs can't be private? Whether they're right or wrong, a person can believe in what they want.

Whether the belief is scientific, pseudoscientific, or religious, a person has a right to think however they want, even if their beliefs are not justified.

If you want to bring up issues of social harm, then I'd remind you that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and other figure heads massacred and went to war over what were largely secular interests.

Religious belief and monasticism gave rise to scholasticism in Europe.
[close]

As long as beliefs have public effects, then they're not merely a private concern.
Religious conviction (often) leads to public behavior.
So, religious belief is not merely a private concern.

Where does the argument go wrong?

Wouldn't you criticize the child molester for their beliefs?
Or would show them respect when they claim, "I know there's not good evidence that children benefit from being molested, but my belief is a matter of faith."



You're right I was being a tad fascist; German blood.




 Don Bluth?



I dont know what's wrong with you, but I have the freedom to dream up whatever crazy religion I want in my own head and there's nothing you or anyone in this world could ever do about it. I dont know where you got child molesters from.

Oh, so you're German. Does that mean you're entitled to some free Becks?



See those two giant things flanking either side of the flag? Any idea what they're called?

You can criticize someone for their belief, but if their belief is private then what's to stop them from having it? Are you espousing some thoughtcrime law against religious belief?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 09:45:25 AM by David »

Beer Keg Peg Leg

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2011, 08:26:54 AM »
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David, could you try summing up what you're trying to say in a few sentences?
[close]

Someone said earlier that the universe is so vast and mysterious that how dare we pretend to know how it all really is? Somehow we still try, it's like the human condition or something.

Science and technology are advancing so fast that me might one day reach the Singularity. Yet it's a pity that economics, justice and politics have not advanced as much. At least not in its praxis.


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but guys....do all dogs really go to heaven???
[close]

My dog ain't going to heaven if I have anything to say about it.

Expand Quote

Who says beliefs can't be private? Whether they're right or wrong, a person can believe in what they want.

Whether the belief is scientific, pseudoscientific, or religious, a person has a right to think however they want, even if their beliefs are not justified.

If you want to bring up issues of social harm, then I'd remind you that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and other figure heads massacred and went to war over what were largely secular interests.

Religious belief and monasticism gave rise to scholasticism in Europe.
[close]

As long as beliefs have public effects, then they're not merely a private concern.
Religious conviction (often) leads to public behavior.
So, religious belief is not merely a private concern.

Where does the argument go wrong?

Wouldn't you criticize the child molester for their beliefs?
Or would show them respect when they claim, "I know there's not good evidence that children benefit from being molested, but my belief is a matter of faith."



You're right I was being a tad fascist; German blood.



[close]

 Don Bluth?



I dont know what's wrong with you, but I have the freedom to dream up whatever crazy religion I want in my own head and there's nothing you or anyone in this world could ever do about it. I dont know where you got child molesters from.

Oh, so you're German. Does that mean you're entitled to some free Becks?



See those two giant things flanking either side of the flag? Any idea what they're called?

You can criticize someone for their belief, but if their belief is private then what's to stop them from having it? Are you espousing some thoughtcrime law against religious belief?


is it...fascistas? or something...my 9th grade teacher told me some shit about them. what do i get if i'm right?

CUDDLEMONSTER

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2011, 08:44:24 AM »
fascios or fasci. they've been a symbol of power since ancient rome. britain's parliament has them too. it's just a symbol.

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #164 on: July 19, 2011, 12:51:05 PM »
'bundle of sticks'



Kab

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #165 on: July 19, 2011, 01:45:30 PM »
Does anyone understand what the fuck David's points are? Dude seems to be talking in circles and constantly being ambiguous.

We can't understand you when you're talking with your head up your ass, dude.
Down by the river...

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #166 on: July 19, 2011, 10:06:21 PM »
"I dont know if the stars rule the world...
....To believe in some other sun,
One that shines even at night,
Some profound incandescence of things,
Surpassing my understanding..."





Deists, including some of the framers of the constitution, said that they saw god as a clockmaker who set the clock then stood back as it unwound, without interfering.

This is more or less a mechanistic view of the world. Calvinism and predestination say that our destiny is already preset and we have little say in the outcome of our fate. Even physics can lead us to believe that free will is still up in the air.  It's not so much the idea of a "magical sky grandpa" that I think about, but rather the principles and concepts that come up when one trys to think about the infinite. Is there anything inherently benevolent about life and this existence or are these only qualitative abstractions resulting from our own chemical reactions and brain synapses? Maybe the idea of a higher power is a coping mechanism left over from a primitive, prescientific era that lingers and is still projected onto the universe.

Then again there is the Selknam tribe from South America. Their beliefs denied the existence of any gods or supreme being and they taught this belief to initiates in their rituals and ceremonies. They'd dress up as spirits and frighten the inititiates, then later reveal that these spirits were only men.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selknam_people#Religion)

Maybe it just boils down to an ontological question, and the questions that come up when we think about the nature of being. Whether one subscribes to an atheistic ontology or not, some of the same issues begin to surface. Maybe in the future we'll have a more holistic way to think about these questions.

Like other people have already mentioned, regardless of what we think about the universe, a basic factor is simply the way we treat others.  One fact that still remains is that there's a hell of a lot of suffering in this world. So do different beliefs and worldviews really affect the way that that problem is addressed?


« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:58:03 AM by David »

Greg Ostertag

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #167 on: July 20, 2011, 12:15:33 AM »

Like other people have already mentioned, regardless of what we think about the universe, a basic factor is simply the way we treat others. ? One fact that still remains is that there's a hell of a lot of suffering in this world. So do different beliefs and worldviews really affect the way that that problem is addressed?

When people "believe" something, they aren't adressing problems at all. They are providing distractions for themselves.
Cold Ghengis

smokecrack

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #168 on: July 20, 2011, 02:25:55 AM »
"I dont know if the stars rule the world...
....To believe in some other sun,
One that shines even at night,
Some profound incandescence of things,
Surpassing my understanding..."





Deists, including some of the framers of the constitution, said that they saw god as a clockmaker who set the clock then stood back as it unwound, without interfering.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 02:28:49 AM by smokecrack »

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #169 on: July 20, 2011, 07:59:01 AM »
Expand Quote

Like other people have already mentioned, regardless of what we think about the universe, a basic factor is simply the way we treat others. ? One fact that still remains is that there's a hell of a lot of suffering in this world. So do different beliefs and worldviews really affect the way that that problem is addressed?
[close]

When people "believe" something, they aren't adressing problems at all. They are providing distractions for themselves.

Environmentalists have their beliefs, and those beliefs address certain problems.

Greg Ostertag

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #170 on: July 20, 2011, 10:53:15 AM »
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Expand Quote

Like other people have already mentioned, regardless of what we think about the universe, a basic factor is simply the way we treat others. ?? One fact that still remains is that there's a hell of a lot of suffering in this world. So do different beliefs and worldviews really affect the way that that problem is addressed?
[close]

When people "believe" something, they aren't adressing problems at all. They are providing distractions for themselves.
[close]

Environmentalists have their beliefs, and those beliefs address certain problems.

Give me an example.
Cold Ghengis

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #171 on: July 20, 2011, 11:14:31 AM »
A person could believe in global warming. Or animal rights
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 12:29:20 PM by David »

annoyedwithskating

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #172 on: July 20, 2011, 11:24:01 AM »
agnostic was coined by t.h. huxley to mean, without knowledge of things unknowable. to say you are an agnostic is the same as saying you are an atheist. either way, you are saying that you can not know that there is a god. now, there are different forms of this belief. some say they are agnostic in the sense that they are not sure, now, they might want to believe that they are not atheists, but they are de facto atheists. the reason, they do not believe in a god. if you do believe there is a god, you can not be an agnostic, because by definition, to be agnostic is to claim that you can not know if there is a god. with that, claiming that you know there are things such as god, or a spirit, or a spiritual world, is dumb.

David

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #173 on: July 27, 2011, 01:27:33 PM »
So, you probably don't lend much creedence to the more intangible things in life, I'm guessing.  And you also turn your head away from the numinous or spiritual, obviously.

Below is an article about phenomena surrounding near-death-experiences. Whether you accept the story or not, people would argue that some of the issues in it raise questions that are usually relegated to the realm of the supernatural; that there is some kind of 'beyond', or some possibility of an extradimensional reality.


"...a small but increasing number of scientists posit that consciousness is related to, but not dependent on, the material brain."


"How...could she know these things?

'She could not have heard [it], because of what they did to her ears,' he says. 'In addition, both of her eyes were taped shut, so she couldn't open her eyes and see what was going on. So her physical sensory perception was off the table."

"Is there some type of awareness that occurs from a nonfunctional, physical brain?"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005

---
on a sidenote:

For a purely materialistic explanation concerning out of body experiences, there's this nytimes article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/health/psychology/03shad.html





« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 06:25:21 PM by David »