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General Discussion => WHATEVER => Topic started by: Freelancevagrant on July 25, 2022, 11:15:01 AM
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Fuck it, let’s bring this shit back. Let’s chat praxis, theory, share literature, and talk tendencies.
Y’all know me, anarcho-syndicalist, truck driving, union man.
EVERYONE
We don’t need to dig and look for reasons to fight amongst ourselves.
If someone is a comrade, treat them as such. If someone is misguided, educate them. If someone is reactionary, call them the fuck out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nd2JcRP/C780-A3-EA-2-DC1-4564-88-D6-31002706-E206.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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NB4 the extensive catalogue of political theorists, authors & economists gets trotted out again.
I think of myself as a socialist because I have an “I don’t want none unless my homies got some” attitude towards life, and implement that ethos into my workplace. All of my employees share equally in the benefits of our collective labors.
When I am enjoying abundance, my neighbors will too.
Maybe that just makes me community minded. I don’t know.
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in b4 lock
Community mindedness and support is the good shit, our struggles are connected
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NB4 the extensive catalogue of political theorists, authors & economists gets trotted out again.
I think of myself as a socialist because I have an “I don’t want none unless my homies got some” attitude towards life, and implement that ethos into my workplace. All of my employees share equally in the benefits of our collective labors.
When I am enjoying abundance, my neighbors will too.
Maybe that just makes me community minded. I don’t know.
If you're limiting the attitude to your homies or peers or perceived race, you've got the reason right there why most countries that have a past or present with "socialist" regimes are so xenophobic and racist. It's one of, if not THE top way to turn a very good idea into a very bad thing. Of course, anybody who remotely defines socialism by its inventor Marx can't possibly deny that a real socialist mindset encompasses all of mankind (or more modernly: all of living nature). Trying to manufacture consent inside a group by distancing it from others will forever be the way to hell. Good thing skateboarding doesn't have this problem at all...
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@SR ACF I can personally vouch for Lou as a comrade. He was just using brevity to convey a point, that all workers should control the means of production.
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I agree with all of these bullet points
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@ihatejulio can we get this moved to whatever, please?
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We should move this back to whatever, but this is a welcome move. Inb4 some crybabies go "but why isn't a right wing thread allowed"
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I’ve been known to give my heart to the comrade cause however recently I’ve been more centrist anarchism.
Both left and right wing nutjobs are there to fuck you openly with gun nuts and bible thumping anti abortion hypocrisy or smiling faced liar’s who’ll shake your hand and stab you in the back when you truly speak your piece.
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i’ve also been more into centrist anarchism lately
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
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@SR ACF
I see where your very valid point comes from.
To be clear: when I say homies, what I actually mean is HUMANKIND.
However, I am realistic in the reach my practical “activism” (such as it is) has.
I instituted a policy wherein no worker shall be paid less than double the standard minimum wage for our city, because cost of living is off the charts ‘round parts.
Bonuses & gratuities are shared EQUALLY amongst all positions, from me at the top, on down to the most “menial” position (because, I cannot do my job without them doing theirs).
In & around my neighborhood, I contribute to our local food & clothing distribution networks, both with product donations, and time/labor.
I do my best to live my ideals.
And I do so because I have young children & I want them to be community minded when they grow up as well.
Think of me as your friendly, local (VERY local) pinko.
I’m here for the peeps.
The merits of one scholar’s theories over another’s? Let’s just say I can take it, or leave it, as far as that goes.
Words & discussion are important to broaden understanding & arrive at consensus, but personally, I’m too impatient for all that talk. I’m more of an action guy, I guess.
I kinda like the way that sounds, actually… Louis Struxworth III: Action Guy!
What a title.
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Centrist Anarchism is just a way for libertarians that don't actually understand anarchism to feel better about being AnCaps.
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I'm a hoxhaist
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I used to openly say I was a leftist until i realized the community is letting 15 year old theatre geeks with hello kitty profile pictures speak for us as a whole. I’ve been around a lot of conservative country folk and i’ve been around a number of bernie bros who unironically use the term latinx. All good people who are letting the media drive us further apart as humans.
Every politician is a dickhead and I can’t trust anyone running our country to make ethical decisions. Once we as a nation realize our voices do not matter and we’re all fucked i think we can start making progress
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Say you have no personality without a political affiliation without saying it: The thread
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Sorry @LouStroux I came in very condescending. I live in Germany where our Eastern states and the bordering countries are head diving into right wing darkness and they all share the USSR heritage, so I guess that's where my sore point comes from.
Since Lou is sharing a lot about his workplace, I think Wolff is right in saying that's where the new socialism will be created vs the political sphere which nobody has any trust in anymore. There really is no way around unions and coops and co-owning towards a bright leftie future and anybody who disagrees with that shouldn't be allowed to call themselves a socialist.
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I'm a hoxhaist
god fucking dammit
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
Yeah I’m going to call bs on this opinion, when I had my heart set with anarchism and left leaning views it became a trap for political apathy, lol.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
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My favorite Marx quote is « The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living »
Yes, looking to the past for clues on how to run shit might help but making a USSR 2.0 won’t work because the material conditions, etc are completely different. Seems like a lot of people gravitating around leftism don’t understand this. I also wish democratic socialism was more often denounced as a dead end in leftist circles, it still runs on capitalism and exploitation and needs to fuck off for good.
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
This is a thread about leftism dude, you’re just a run of the mill neo-lib ::)
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
So you hate things so much you decided to like it that way?
"There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos."
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Say you have no personality without a political affiliation without saying it: The thread
meanwhile, the only thing i've seen you do is stick up for racists and homophobes and spend way too much time losing arguments on a website. your mom should really limit your phone privileges and maybe someday when you're a grown up you'll learn some shit.
Aw, c’mon man!
It’s not bad enough that his dad won’t buy him skateboards anymore? And now you’re get mom involved too?
She’ll probably put the kibosh on allowance for a month & young Bolts over here won’t be able to afford any fenty laced herb.
Respectfully, this is a bridge to far.
I think you owe the young individual an apology. ;)
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My favorite Marx quote is « The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living »
Yes, looking to the past for clues on how to run shit might help but making a USSR 2.0 won’t work because the material conditions, etc are completely different. Seems like a lot of people gravitating around leftism don’t understand this. I also wish democratic socialism was more often denounced as a dead end in leftist circles, it still runs on capitalism and exploitation and needs to fuck off for good.
Agreed, and I feel like this has been happening more and more the last couple years (or maybe I'm just noticing it more). Demsoc/DSA in the US seemed to many as a more "palatable" leftism when compared to a bunch of crotchety old anarchists and Marxists, and groups like DSA had a lot of visibility, which was probably good for teenagers just starting to develop their own worldviews especially as a reaction to the growing right wing, but that veneer quickly faded and people realized demsocs are just liberals using the language of social justice for social media infographics
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We're about ten years behind in organizing and we've got two years before shit gets worse
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It's more than ten and less than two. I'd rather not be so pessimistic, but in fact we are neck-deep. There's been good news out of Latin America, but I'm sure the US will take care of that soon enough.
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I'm here for it.
NB4 the extensive catalogue of political theorists, authors & economists gets trotted out again.
Found the Trot of the thread 😏
Kidding.
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I was actually putting together a digital zine about socialism/labor, hacker culture, art/music, and skateboarding.
I did some really cool interviews but ultimately never finished it due to life taking a turn.
Anyone interested in contributing some writing, photos, art? OR get involved in doing some graphic design/page layout to help finish off the existing content?
Pop me a PM if you're interested or just want to learn more.
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I'm a hoxhaist
I despise you’re anti revisionist Marxism-Leninism, but this song fucking slaps.
https://youtu.be/0du6yLEYauU
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I was actually putting together a digital zine about socialism/labor, hacker culture, art/music, and skateboarding.
I did some really cool interviews but ultimately never finished it due to life taking a turn.
Anyone interested in contributing some writing, photos, art? OR get involved in doing some graphic design/page layout to help finish off the existing content?
Pop me a PM if you're interested or just want to learn more.
I'm talentless but totally down to buy a few copies
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Sent a pm. That Captcha is pretty ferocious. I must be missing something.
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I was actually putting together a digital zine about socialism/labor, hacker culture, art/music, and skateboarding.
I did some really cool interviews but ultimately never finished it due to life taking a turn.
Anyone interested in contributing some writing, photos, art? OR get involved in doing some graphic design/page layout to help finish off the existing content?
Pop me a PM if you're interested or just want to learn more.
i’m so down for that, I’ve always wanted to illustrate something
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And of course lets not forget today is the day of the revolution in Cuba. 68 years and still resisting chuds and pushing through sanctions!
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And of course lets not forget today is the day of the revolution in Cuba. 68 years and still resisting chuds and pushing through sanctions!
Impressive how a tiny island just off the coast of Florida can survive under the thumb of an empire that declares their economic system doesn't work anywhere. It's telling that as American influence dwindles in South America they are freeing themselves of the grip of conservative American influence. It's possible that Latin America will become the new seat of democracy at some point. We'll just have to survive to see it happen. It's a longshot and I'm rooting for it.
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And of course lets not forget today is the day of the revolution in Cuba. 68 years and still resisting chuds and pushing through sanctions!
Yep yep yep, and Cuba has some of the most advanced cancer treatments in the world and managed to develop a treatment for alzheimer and Parkinson’s currently in Phase III. They literally have so many doctors that they’re sending them all over latin america to help. They’re also really doing great work on rights for the LGBTQ+ community and non traditional families, really a great country.
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And of course lets not forget today is the day of the revolution in Cuba. 68 years and still resisting chuds and pushing through sanctions!
RIP Fidel, the CIA never got him
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(https://i.ibb.co/f1hDmkK/jerk-off-the-hangover.gif) (https://ibb.co/f1hDmkK)
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
This is a thread about leftism dude, you’re just a run of the mill neo-lib ::)
(https://tenor.com/y81X.gif)
Ok I’d like to see you at a demonstration holding it down. Neo lib as you say, nah I’m just jaded about both parties hence my apathy/nihilism towards change.
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I apologize to the revolution for not wanting to get a job.
I’m a kook but I have a dr’s note
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(https://i.ibb.co/f1hDmkK/jerk-off-the-hangover.gif) (https://ibb.co/f1hDmkK)Expand Quote
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
This is a thread about leftism dude, you’re just a run of the mill neo-lib ::)
Ok I’d like to see you at a demonstration holding it down. Neo lib as you say, nah I’m just jaded about both parties hence my apathy/nihilism towards change.
I 100% agree with @newguy and @texascybergothic
Your apathy is a great way of telling everyone you never actually gave a shit or understood what the core tenants of libertarian socialism actually are.
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https://youtu.be/i_Q8TTzK1rs
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(https://i.ibb.co/f1hDmkK/jerk-off-the-hangover.gif) (https://ibb.co/f1hDmkK)Expand Quote
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
This is a thread about leftism dude, you’re just a run of the mill neo-lib ::)
Ok I’d like to see you at a demonstration holding it down. Neo lib as you say, nah I’m just jaded about both parties hence my apathy/nihilism towards change.
Both parties? Dude I hope you're not referring to the two majority parties in the US and thereby implying that one of them is in any way leftist. You got a long way to go I'd that's where your knowledge is at. Maybe read up a little.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
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(https://i.ibb.co/f1hDmkK/jerk-off-the-hangover.gif) (https://ibb.co/f1hDmkK)Expand Quote
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
This is a thread about leftism dude, you’re just a run of the mill neo-lib ::)
Ok I’d like to see you at a demonstration holding it down. Neo lib as you say, nah I’m just jaded about both parties hence my apathy/nihilism towards change.
"This is a thread about leftism dude"
"I don't care for either political party"
This is a thread about leftism dude.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
Quoting this so I can remember to come and post a response later
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Centrist anarchism is a right wing psyop. Friedman and Rothbard were paid out the ass to promote that kind of ideology and to derail the term libertarian. Any sort of laissez-faire type political inclination strikes me as idealism. There won't be peace in such a situation, only a violent conquest, anarchist revolution seems to me an alley-oop for a violent regression into fascism, because those forces do not go away post-revolution.
I’ve had myself in the stew at nonviolent protests in Seattle and Portland as well IMF/WTO in DC.
During this time I was unaware of psychosis I was going through I was sizing up cops and not saying a word, dead staring at cops and their 9mm like if you move in aggressive manner I’m grabbing that 9 and blasting, this is for hours straight my eyes telling my intentions.
I guess my views have lost non of it’s potency just I’m jaded towards either side hence the centrist views, both sides are trash including libertarian party.
This is a thread about leftism dude, you’re just a run of the mill neo-lib ::)
Ok I’d like to see you at a demonstration holding it down. Neo lib as you say, nah I’m just jaded about both parties hence my apathy/nihilism towards change.
"I don't care for either political party"
This is a thread about leftism dude.
Well I suppose you got me summed up, I just don’t have the energy or the heart.
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Well I suppose you got me summed up, I just don’t have the energy or the heart.
It's perfect for you, then. You don't have to care about Dems or Reps or Greens or even go around calling yourself a leftist. Just fight for what's right. The energy or the heart for that will suffice.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elite".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
never read fisher and honestly only recently started hearing about him. what’s his deal? (besides what i’ll find on wikipedia)
the question you’re asking is interesting and something i hadn’t thought of before, but what i have been thinking about recently is how we need to change our understanding of power, labor, and production in the context of the fourth industrial revolution, and i think it relates to what you’ve been wondering
i think it’s hard for ppl to develop class consciousness on our own when we aren’t aware of where we fall in the line of production, so to speak, and our relationship to it really depends on our job and location/jobs available. salaried workers in developed cities are finding more jobs in service (retail being most common) than production of physical goods, which i imagine could alienate ppl from our economic role or position? i also think the ways our “labor” or “production power” are being economically exploited nowadays are much more abstract, the epitome of it being the “metaverse” data extraction and contemporary corporate power structures so convoluted that we can’t see who we are struggling against. i think working class vs capitalist class would still apply if we had more clarity on where everybody’s surplus value is going?
idk, just my marxist shower thoughts, what do y’all think? i appreciate this leftist thread since i missed the last one :)
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For a run-of-the-mill liberal/progressive type, Thomas Frank is pretty good, so of course the Blue No Matter Who types despise him.
It's a pretty interesting dynamic. There are those that burn their nikes because nike took some benign stance on a social issue and those that keep wearing their nikes. Of course they don't notice they both have nikes.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
I think one issue would be that Mark passed away before he could complete his work and so we’re left with a thought process brutally interrupted (gone too soon :'(). But it’s still a really important issue to tackle i agree. I’ve read so many arguments about who does and doesn’t fit in the working class segment, I’ve read people arguing that Marx’s definition is too strict and outdated, others say that earning a wage to survive slots you in the working class and that truckers who own their trucks don’t fit in because they own their means productions (something I disagree with). I’ve read countless threads on manual labour and trade jobs versus baristas at starbucks/uber drivers/office workers and so on…
Now personally I don’t think I can remotely contribute anything of value because a) I’m still in uni and b) I’m a dumbass kid talking shit on an old dusty forum ;D However some people will def have good takes on this.
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Props @Freelancevagrant for starting this thread, always considered myself leftwing although i am not well versed in the literature/theories.
One thing I wanted to put to you folks is how you concisely explain what actual leftism is. Call it the 'pub test'. For instance libertarianism often get's condensed to 'I just don't want the government involved in my life', something which people tend to nod and agree with fairly quickly and which is at least somewhat accurate in describing it.
I guess what I want to ask here is does anyone have an equivalent soundbite to help articulate leftism to the uninitiated? Is it even possible to simplify leftist theory to that extent? But when the Alt-right/fascist agenda seems to be converting people frighteningly quickly, I am curious if leftism is able to compete in that sense of 'easy to digest' soundbites. Or is my inability to do this myself just a reflection of the lack of literature I've read to this point?
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@DiscountCanofTuna
Glad to have you here my dude! Were you in the last one?
Here is how I try to pitch it, a liberal is someone who wants to repair capitalism. They want to make our lives moderately more comfortable, so we don’t threaten their privileged place of power. They want to offer us a small slice of pie.
A leftist is someone who wants to dismantle capitalism and replace it with a different economic model. One that is concerned with the well being of all. We believe no one should profit of of the work we do and we believe in direct democracy. We demand the whole bakery.
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I heard a very good definition of left vs right.
Someone on the ‘left’’ sees humans are more or less equal in value, and wants more equitable outcomes for everyone. Less poverty, more sharing, less hierarchies.
Someone on the ‘right’ sees humans as variable, and thinks some people ‘deserve’ more, and others ‘deserve’ less. They generally want to preserve hierarchies and privileges, or return to a former, more strictly stratified society.
More rewards and punishments.
Basically, all the different stripes of revolutionary ideas (left) and reactionary ideas (right) are born from how to achieve these ideals of equality or hierarchy
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I heard a very good definition of left vs right.
Someone on the ‘left’’ sees humans are more or less equal in value, and wants more equitable outcomes for everyone. Less poverty, more sharing, less hierarchies.
Someone on the ‘right’ sees humans as variable, and thinks some people ‘deserve’ more, and others ‘deserve’ less. They generally want to preserve hierarchies and privileges, are return to an even more stratified society.
More rewards and punishments.
Basically, all the different stripes of revolutionary ideas (left) and reactionary ideas (right) are born from how to achieve these ideals of equality or hierarchy
I've gotten pretty out of the loop with all the different types of leftist, left vs liberal, etc
I'm definitely on the left side of the description you posted there, but I've been told I'm not a real leftist because I advocate voting Democrat (USA).
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Expand Quote
I heard a very good definition of left vs right.
Someone on the ‘left’’ sees humans are more or less equal in value, and wants more equitable outcomes for everyone. Less poverty, more sharing, less hierarchies.
Someone on the ‘right’ sees humans as variable, and thinks some people ‘deserve’ more, and others ‘deserve’ less. They generally want to preserve hierarchies and privileges, are return to an even more stratified society.
More rewards and punishments.
Basically, all the different stripes of revolutionary ideas (left) and reactionary ideas (right) are born from how to achieve these ideals of equality or hierarchy
I've gotten pretty out of the loop with all the different types of leftist, left vs liberal, etc
I'm definitely on the left side of the description you posted there, but I've been told I'm not a real leftist because I advocate voting Democrat (USA).
Freelance’s post adresses this quite well, Democrats are libs, they want to fix capitalism, therefore if you vote for them or believe in their program you’re a liberal, not a leftist.
However I’m sure many leftists vote democrat to block republicans and are immensely frustrated by it. You’re basically forced to participate in capitalism through your vote because the alternative is much, much worse. But capitalism invariably decays into fascism so your vote is merely adding a bit of rubble to a failing dam holding back the worst reactionaries. It’s just delaying the inevitable and only serves the reactionary camp cos they can point to liberalism saying “look these people are making everything worse!” which is a fact, you can’t fix a broken system based on exponential growth and any attempt to fix it will fail.
This is how I personally view the Republican/Democrat dynamic at the moment, doesnt help that an elderly man who likely suffers from dementia is now heading this mess too..
Honestly I’m expecting a lot of people will radicalize when they find out all that Roe V. Wade fundraising money dems desperately needed apparently, was spent on advertisement and donations to insane Qanon republican candidates.
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I heard a very good definition of left vs right.
Someone on the ‘left’’ sees humans are more or less equal in value, and wants more equitable outcomes for everyone. Less poverty, more sharing, less hierarchies.
Someone on the ‘right’ sees humans as variable, and thinks some people ‘deserve’ more, and others ‘deserve’ less. They generally want to preserve hierarchies and privileges, are return to an even more stratified society.
More rewards and punishments.
Basically, all the different stripes of revolutionary ideas (left) and reactionary ideas (right) are born from how to achieve these ideals of equality or hierarchy
I've gotten pretty out of the loop with all the different types of leftist, left vs liberal, etc
I'm definitely on the left side of the description you posted there, but I've been told I'm not a real leftist because I advocate voting Democrat (USA).
Honestly I’m expecting a lot of people will radicalize when they find out all that Roe V. Wade fundraising money dems desperately needed apparently, was spent on advertisement and donations to insane Qanon republican candidates.
I'm sure these moderate rebels will use these stinger missiles in a responsible and unproblematic manner
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Freelance’s post adresses this quite well, Democrats are libs, they want to fix capitalism, therefore if you vote for them or believe in their program you’re a liberal, not a leftist.
However I’m sure many leftists vote democrat to block republicans and are immensely frustrated by it. You’re basically forced to participate in capitalism through your vote because the alternative is much, much worse. But capitalism invariably decays into fascism so your vote is merely adding a bit of rubble to a failing dam holding back the worst reactionaries. It’s just delaying the inevitable and only serves the reactionary camp cos they can point to liberalism saying “look these people are making everything worse!” which is a fact, you can’t fix a broken system based on exponential growth and any attempt to fix it will fail.
This is how I personally view the Republican/Democrat dynamic at the moment, doesnt help that an elderly man who likely suffers from dementia is now heading this mess too..
Honestly I’m expecting a lot of people will radicalize when they find out all that Roe V. Wade fundraising money dems desperately needed apparently, was spent on advertisement and donations to insane Qanon republican candidates.
I don't think Democrats or the two party system are the answer to anything, for sure. But having said that I think choosing to opt out of voting because you hate the system or refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils" is a luxury enjoyed by white boys who have minimal skin in the game and will never change anything.
I'm not sure what that last statement means? Are you saying the DNC donated to Q Republicans?
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Expand Quote
Freelance’s post adresses this quite well, Democrats are libs, they want to fix capitalism, therefore if you vote for them or believe in their program you’re a liberal, not a leftist.
However I’m sure many leftists vote democrat to block republicans and are immensely frustrated by it. You’re basically forced to participate in capitalism through your vote because the alternative is much, much worse. But capitalism invariably decays into fascism so your vote is merely adding a bit of rubble to a failing dam holding back the worst reactionaries. It’s just delaying the inevitable and only serves the reactionary camp cos they can point to liberalism saying “look these people are making everything worse!” which is a fact, you can’t fix a broken system based on exponential growth and any attempt to fix it will fail.
This is how I personally view the Republican/Democrat dynamic at the moment, doesnt help that an elderly man who likely suffers from dementia is now heading this mess too..
Honestly I’m expecting a lot of people will radicalize when they find out all that Roe V. Wade fundraising money dems desperately needed apparently, was spent on advertisement and donations to insane Qanon republican candidates.
I don't think Democrats or the two party system are the answer to anything, for sure. But having said that I think choosing to opt out of voting because you hate the system or refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils" is a luxury enjoyed by white boys who have minimal skin in the game and will never change anything.
I'm not sure what that last statement means? Are you saying the DNC donated to Q Republicans?
They have and are currently. They've tried to promote "insane" candidates in order to siphon votes away from GOP candidates who might actually win.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/16/us/politics/democrats-midterms-trump-gop.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/25/hogan-trump-maryland-democratic-collusion-dan-cox-qanon-wes-moore
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/risky-midterm-strategy-democrats-boost-far-right-candidate-michigan-race-2022-07-26/
They even helped boost Trump
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
One hand washes the other.
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but... but... I want the president to fix things and forgive my loans. Raising interests rates is good! it's going to force working people to choose between higher than necessary mortgage debt or help a smart investor make profit through rising rental payments! People will get back to work with lower wages and where empowered bosses who can retaliate for insubordination and malingering during the pandemic; it's going to fix inflation! At least that what's Mr.'s Powell and Biden posit. Thought when Colin passed we were done with shitty Powells...
(https://i.ibb.co/NLMYZFG/Screen-Shot-2022-07-27-at-1-31-39-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/NLMYZFG)fazer download video instagram (https://500pxdownload.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/1JrtHKZ/Screen-Shot-2022-07-27-at-1-32-01-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/1JrtHKZ)
just kidding
https://youtu.be/8NgFOGw_UMI (https://youtu.be/8NgFOGw_UMI)
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Honestly though in my experience with both sides, I do still lean towards leftist ideal’s.
What my involvement in blackbloc and counter protests against nazis and antiwar sentiments, it seems as though anarchism and the true sense of holding it down as a whole has fell to the wayside.
I’m not saying that I’m not directly involved however you bet your ass if there’s nazis and I know about it I’m putting a brick or fist to them, nazis get no reprieve.
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A leftist is someone who wants to dismantle capitalism and replace it with a different economic model. One that is concerned with the well being of all. We believe no one should profit of of the work we do and we believe in direct democracy. We demand the whole bakery.
Or get rid of all economic systems and replace with Mutual Aid. "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need."
A major critique of Leftism is it does not go far enough and we will have to settle with some ungodly bureaucratic mess to make horrible decisions for us. A post-leftist might argue that the only way this egalitarian ideal is possible is to devolve power, dismantle hierarchy and move away from centralization completely and toward tiny self-sustaining self-determined communities. At least that's the only way I can envision the Leftist dream working at this point, but there's another word for that...
Until then its all just band aids on gaping wounds.
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we can talk about opinions on theory, point fingers, speak about our hopes and dreams, but shit like this is happening in towns and cities all over the US
https://wisconsinwatch.org/2022/07/how-a-bullying-probe-paralyzed-a-wisconsin-towns-democracy/ (https://wisconsinwatch.org/2022/07/how-a-bullying-probe-paralyzed-a-wisconsin-towns-democracy/)
while the bomb threats are perhaps not as common, the brigading of school boards and local institutions like libraries is very prevalent. My friend who is a librarian in a smallish city said fielded over 130 phone calls protesting drag queen story hour and had to hire cops to stand watch. cops to stand watch at a fucking childrens room event.
I worked in a school during Covid and the angry anti mask lunatics went CRAZY during Zoom school board meetings, making threats, yelling, cursing and what not.
Leftist govt on the large scale is not going to be a thing in the United States. The idea of a one govt system has been a wild experiment, the federal system isn't so different than an empire of nation states connected by some vague yet all powerful understanding of white, christian supremacy. Economically, social, and culturally the regions of the US are vastly different, with those, especially those that were on the losing side of the Civil War, being still completely dependent upon subsidies from New England/NY and California. On the national level we can hope for Bernie at best (and, since we're in that system, I'd love brother Bernie in the WH). Where anarchism actually works is on the macro/micro/mezzo levels within community and communities with shared interests. Do your work at home
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Expand Quote
Freelance’s post adresses this quite well, Democrats are libs, they want to fix capitalism, therefore if you vote for them or believe in their program you’re a liberal, not a leftist.
However I’m sure many leftists vote democrat to block republicans and are immensely frustrated by it. You’re basically forced to participate in capitalism through your vote because the alternative is much, much worse. But capitalism invariably decays into fascism so your vote is merely adding a bit of rubble to a failing dam holding back the worst reactionaries. It’s just delaying the inevitable and only serves the reactionary camp cos they can point to liberalism saying “look these people are making everything worse!” which is a fact, you can’t fix a broken system based on exponential growth and any attempt to fix it will fail.
This is how I personally view the Republican/Democrat dynamic at the moment, doesnt help that an elderly man who likely suffers from dementia is now heading this mess too..
Honestly I’m expecting a lot of people will radicalize when they find out all that Roe V. Wade fundraising money dems desperately needed apparently, was spent on advertisement and donations to insane Qanon republican candidates.
I don't think Democrats or the two party system are the answer to anything, for sure. But having said that I think choosing to opt out of voting because you hate the system or refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils" is a luxury enjoyed by white boys who have minimal skin in the game and will never change anything.
I'm not sure what that last statement means? Are you saying the DNC donated to Q Republicans?
It’s not voting for the lesser than two evils when the end result is invariably mass death and genocide.
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Expand Quote
A leftist is someone who wants to dismantle capitalism and replace it with a different economic model. One that is concerned with the well being of all. We believe no one should profit of of the work we do and we believe in direct democracy. We demand the whole bakery.
Or get rid of all economic systems and replace with Mutual Aid. "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need."
A major critique of Leftism is it does not go far enough and we will have to settle with some ungodly bureaucratic mess to make horrible decisions for us. A post-leftist might argue that the only way this egalitarian ideal is possible is to devolve power, dismantle hierarchy and move away from centralization completely and toward tiny self-sustaining self-determined communities. At least that's the only way I can envision the Leftist dream working at this point, but there's another word for that...
Until then its all just band aids on gaping wounds.
And how would you organize these small communities? How would you structure them? I am very sympathetic towards that ideal, but how would you ensure a democratic structure and prevent abuse?
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we can talk about opinions on theory, point fingers, speak about our hopes and dreams, but shit like this is happening in towns and cities all over the US
https://wisconsinwatch.org/2022/07/how-a-bullying-probe-paralyzed-a-wisconsin-towns-democracy/ (https://wisconsinwatch.org/2022/07/how-a-bullying-probe-paralyzed-a-wisconsin-towns-democracy/)
while the bomb threats are perhaps not as common, the brigading of school boards and local institutions like libraries is very prevalent. My friend who is a librarian in a smallish city said fielded over 130 phone calls protesting drag queen story hour and had to hire cops to stand watch. cops to stand watch at a fucking childrens room event.
I worked in a school during Covid and the angry anti mask lunatics went CRAZY during Zoom school board meetings, making threats, yelling, cursing and what not.
Leftist govt on the large scale is not going to be a thing in the United States. The idea of a one govt system has been a wild experiment, the federal system isn't so different than an empire of nation states connected by some vague yet all powerful understanding of white, christian supremacy. Economically, social, and culturally the regions of the US are vastly different, with those, especially those that were on the losing side of the Civil War, being still completely dependent upon subsidies from New England/NY and California. On the national level we can hope for Bernie at best (and, since we're in that system, I'd love brother Bernie in the WH). Where anarchism actually works is on the macro/micro/mezzo levels within community and communities with shared interests. Do your work at home
That‘s crazy. Do you see hope in any reforms to the system?
To me as an outsider. I am German. I think if you achieved two things: Get rid of the two party system and get money out of politics a lot would be achieved for American democracy and the world.
One major difference between the US and the German system is that there is a general democratic consensus between most major parties. We have an extreme right in mainstream politics similar to Trump‘s movement, but no other mainstream party will work with them.
It seems that consensus is not there anymore in the US. Maybe there is a chance there for reform? What do you think will come out of this essential oligarchical system?
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Expand Quote
A leftist is someone who wants to dismantle capitalism and replace it with a different economic model. One that is concerned with the well being of all. We believe no one should profit of of the work we do and we believe in direct democracy. We demand the whole bakery.
Or get rid of all economic systems and replace with Mutual Aid. "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need."
A major critique of Leftism is it does not go far enough and we will have to settle with some ungodly bureaucratic mess to make horrible decisions for us. A post-leftist might argue that the only way this egalitarian ideal is possible is to devolve power, dismantle hierarchy and move away from centralization completely and toward tiny self-sustaining self-determined communities. At least that's the only way I can envision the Leftist dream working at this point, but there's another word for that...
Until then its all just band aids on gaping wounds.
I really appreciate your input my dude, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I would have really gone all in and discussed the finer points of mutual aid, free association, post scarcity etc. But for the sake of brevity I just decided to make it as simple and straight forward as possible.
All this talk about dismantling hierarchy and self determination is getting me way too fired up to be at work rn. Shit has got me ready to storm out singing a las barricadas.
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
A leftist is someone who wants to dismantle capitalism and replace it with a different economic model. One that is concerned with the well being of all. We believe no one should profit of of the work we do and we believe in direct democracy. We demand the whole bakery.
Or get rid of all economic systems and replace with Mutual Aid. "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need."
A major critique of Leftism is it does not go far enough and we will have to settle with some ungodly bureaucratic mess to make horrible decisions for us. A post-leftist might argue that the only way this egalitarian ideal is possible is to devolve power, dismantle hierarchy and move away from centralization completely and toward tiny self-sustaining self-determined communities. At least that's the only way I can envision the Leftist dream working at this point, but there's another word for that...
Until then its all just band aids on gaping wounds.
And how would you organize these small communities? How would you structure them? I am very sympathetic towards that ideal, but how would you ensure a democratic structure and prevent abuse?
These are the types of questions we have to ask for sure.
I think the ideal number I read somewhere were autonomous communities of about 50 people. As I understand it the main point of Kropotkin's 'Mutual Aid' and Green Anarchists ideas is that humans are more inclined to cooperation and not competition. But our current overly-complicated and socioeconomic arrangements have really compromised that.
The bigger questions is how do we get there from here?
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
A leftist is someone who wants to dismantle capitalism and replace it with a different economic model. One that is concerned with the well being of all. We believe no one should profit of of the work we do and we believe in direct democracy. We demand the whole bakery.
Or get rid of all economic systems and replace with Mutual Aid. "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need."
A major critique of Leftism is it does not go far enough and we will have to settle with some ungodly bureaucratic mess to make horrible decisions for us. A post-leftist might argue that the only way this egalitarian ideal is possible is to devolve power, dismantle hierarchy and move away from centralization completely and toward tiny self-sustaining self-determined communities. At least that's the only way I can envision the Leftist dream working at this point, but there's another word for that...
Until then its all just band aids on gaping wounds.
And how would you organize these small communities? How would you structure them? I am very sympathetic towards that ideal, but how would you ensure a democratic structure and prevent abuse?
These are the types of questions we have to ask for sure.
I think the ideal number I read somewhere were autonomous communities of about 50 people. As I understand it the main point of Kropotkin's 'Mutual Aid' and Green Anarchists ideas is that humans are more inclined to cooperation and not competition. But our current overly-complicated and socioeconomic arrangements have really compromised that.
The bigger questions is how do we get there from here?
I mean, to split society up into self-sufficient communities of 50 or less, wouldn't that mean everyone would have to be cool with essentially living off the grid?
Would there be electricity and if so, how?
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The Green Anarchists would argue that yes that would indeed mean living off grid.
The Anarcho-Syndicalists would be OK with some kind of commonly agreed upon federated system that would serve these autonomous communities, sending delegates from each commune to coordinate on larger 'federal' issues.
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Expand Quote
we can talk about opinions on theory, point fingers, speak about our hopes and dreams, but shit like this is happening in towns and cities all over the US
https://wisconsinwatch.org/2022/07/how-a-bullying-probe-paralyzed-a-wisconsin-towns-democracy/ (https://wisconsinwatch.org/2022/07/how-a-bullying-probe-paralyzed-a-wisconsin-towns-democracy/)
while the bomb threats are perhaps not as common, the brigading of school boards and local institutions like libraries is very prevalent. My friend who is a librarian in a smallish city said fielded over 130 phone calls protesting drag queen story hour and had to hire cops to stand watch. cops to stand watch at a fucking childrens room event.
I worked in a school during Covid and the angry anti mask lunatics went CRAZY during Zoom school board meetings, making threats, yelling, cursing and what not.
Leftist govt on the large scale is not going to be a thing in the United States. The idea of a one govt system has been a wild experiment, the federal system isn't so different than an empire of nation states connected by some vague yet all powerful understanding of white, christian supremacy. Economically, social, and culturally the regions of the US are vastly different, with those, especially those that were on the losing side of the Civil War, being still completely dependent upon subsidies from New England/NY and California. On the national level we can hope for Bernie at best (and, since we're in that system, I'd love brother Bernie in the WH). Where anarchism actually works is on the macro/micro/mezzo levels within community and communities with shared interests. Do your work at home
That‘s crazy. Do you see hope in any reforms to the system?
To me as an outsider. I am German. I think if you achieved two things: Get rid of the two party system and get money out of politics a lot would be achieved for American democracy and the world.
One major difference between the US and the German system is that there is a general democratic consensus between most major parties. We have an extreme right in mainstream politics similar to Trump‘s movement, but no other mainstream party will work with them.
It seems that consensus is not there anymore in the US. Maybe there is a chance there for reform? What do you think will come out of this essential oligarchical system?
The way things are trending in this country, collapse and rebuilding seems much more likely than reform. How do you reform a class of octogenarian bureaucrats wrapping their not quite dead skeletal fingers around the levers of power and refusing to do anything other than run out the clock? And that's just the democratic side. The republican side wants to use the levers of power but to hurt other people
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Get me off the grid on a little self sustaining farm in the mountains where I can build my own DIY spot and live like a crusty eco-anarchist all alone
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In a few years we can just load in the CrustyEcoAnarcist.exe app into our metaverse profile and pick virtual bugs off our virtual tomatoes while sitting in AC on the couch. Best of both worlds :).
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leftism to me means one views the basic socioeconomic unit as a community rather than as individuals. capitalism is individualist in nature, hence why it enforces “roles” on ppl. i don’t agree w leftism = anticapitalism as, for example, living like Ted Kaczynski and trying to detach from society is an individualist point of view that doesn’t involve community. sorry if that can come off as a dig, not what I’m trying to do.
When googling Mark Fisher from an earlier post I resonated w his idea of American “Capitalist Realism” since I moved to the US
I def get the impression Americans are more likely to believe in the end of the world than the end of capitalism. yet capitalism has no other logical ending, and once it ends, whatever group is most organized by then will take the reins of the new world.
so I’m wondering, what do gringos imagine the world looking in 30, 50, 100 years? Are humans still around or did climate change extinguish us? Did america survive or did it dissolve like the USSR? Did the govt collapse and now it’s (officially) a Christian Nationalist state? Did leftists sufficiently organize by then? Genuinely interested in the American perception on this.
Personally I view the collapse of capitalism as a possibility within our lifetimes, and as a South American I genuinely hope for the collapse of the American empire so the Global South can more effectively decolonize our politics and our minds. What genuinely scares me is the conversation surrounding COVID-19 as a “test run” for severe climate change by the capitalist class: can we keep the eCoNoMy running with massive pain and death occurring at a global level?
This is where I get very Leninist, bc, yes, yes they can and they are right now! I think climate justice in 15–20 years will be a much more radical cry than how neoliberal it is today. I think getting us from here to there will involve massive radicalization seeking popular justice, but that requires class consciousness to develop and a inclusive ideology, connecting to my previous post, sort of.
Sorry for rambling. The state of the world has me really thinking about this every day. Enjoying hearing everyone’s thoughts here. Peace and love <3
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leftism to me means one views the basic socioeconomic unit as a community rather than as individuals. capitalism is individualist in nature, hence why it enforces “roles” on ppl. i don’t agree w leftism = anticapitalism as, for example, living like Ted Kaczynski and trying to detach from society is an individualist point of view that doesn’t involve community. sorry if that can come off as a dig, not what I’m trying to do.
When googling Mark Fisher from an earlier post I resonated w his idea of American “Capitalist Realism” since I moved to the US
I def get the impression Americans are more likely to believe in the end of the world than the end of capitalism. yet capitalism has no other logical ending, and once it ends, whatever group is most organized by then will take the reins of the new world.
so I’m wondering, what do gringos imagine the world looking in 30, 50, 100 years? Are humans still around or did climate change extinguish us? Did america survive or did it dissolve like the USSR? Did the govt collapse and now it’s (officially) a Christian Nationalist state? Did leftists sufficiently organize by then? Genuinely interested in the American perception on this.
Personally I view the collapse of capitalism as a possibility within our lifetimes, and as a South American I genuinely hope for the collapse of the American empire so the Global South can more effectively decolonize our politics and our minds. What genuinely scares me is the conversation surrounding COVID-19 as a “test run” for severe climate change by the capitalist class: can we keep the eCoNoMy running with massive pain and death occurring at a global level?
This is where I get very Leninist, bc, yes, yes they can and they are right now! I think climate justice in 15–20 years will be a much more radical cry than how neoliberal it is today. I think getting us from here to there will involve massive radicalization seeking popular justice, but that requires class consciousness to develop and a inclusive ideology, connecting to my previous post, sort of.
Sorry for rambling. The state of the world has me really thinking about this every day. Enjoying hearing everyone’s thoughts here. Peace and love <3
oh boy if you don’t know who Michael Parenti is do I have a boat to sell you. Just google “yellow parenti lecture” and enjoy the ride
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In a few years we can just load in the CrustyEcoAnarcist.exe app into our metaverse profile and pick virtual bugs off our virtual tomatoes while sitting in AC on the couch. Best of both worlds :).
Catch me in VR Chat as the crusty eco anarchist in the virtual farm lol
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Get me off the grid on a little self sustaining farm in the mountains where I can build my own DIY spot and live like a crusty eco-anarchist all alone
I hope you're close to a small self-sufficient, off the grid community that's producing quality decks....and trucks...and bearings...and wheels...I feel like all of these would be very early on the chopping block when we're all farming our own food and and sourcing our own clean, drinkable water.
Not sure where you'll scrounge up the concrete for your DIY spot but I wish you the best of luck!
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ECO-anarchos ...are we talking like the old school greenpeace dudes who go after whale ships and those cats in oregon back in 2000's who were burning down mansions being built. Or we talking the current Gretta Thunburg is my leader Eco-radical movement
What is even the Eco-radical movement these days...AOC and the green new deal?
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leftism to me means one views the basic socioeconomic unit as a community rather than as individuals. capitalism is individualist in nature, hence why it enforces “roles” on ppl. i don’t agree w leftism = anticapitalism as, for example, living like Ted Kaczynski and trying to detach from society is an individualist point of view that doesn’t involve community. sorry if that can come off as a dig, not what I’m trying to do.
When googling Mark Fisher from an earlier post I resonated w his idea of American “Capitalist Realism” since I moved to the US
I def get the impression Americans are more likely to believe in the end of the world than the end of capitalism. yet capitalism has no other logical ending, and once it ends, whatever group is most organized by then will take the reins of the new world.
so I’m wondering, what do gringos imagine the world looking in 30, 50, 100 years? Are humans still around or did climate change extinguish us? Did america survive or did it dissolve like the USSR? Did the govt collapse and now it’s (officially) a Christian Nationalist state? Did leftists sufficiently organize by then? Genuinely interested in the American perception on this.
Personally I view the collapse of capitalism as a possibility within our lifetimes, and as a South American I genuinely hope for the collapse of the American empire so the Global South can more effectively decolonize our politics and our minds. What genuinely scares me is the conversation surrounding COVID-19 as a “test run” for severe climate change by the capitalist class: can we keep the eCoNoMy running with massive pain and death occurring at a global level?
This is where I get very Leninist, bc, yes, yes they can and they are right now! I think climate justice in 15–20 years will be a much more radical cry than how neoliberal it is today. I think getting us from here to there will involve massive radicalization seeking popular justice, but that requires class consciousness to develop and a inclusive ideology, connecting to my previous post, sort of.
Sorry for rambling. The state of the world has me really thinking about this every day. Enjoying hearing everyone’s thoughts here. Peace and love <3
i like what you say about americans believing in the end of the world rather than an end of capitalism. the christian nationalist ethos is really positioning itself to be at the helm when things “heat up” in this century, but that’s just more of that same old post war america.
i engaged with a liberal on reddit today who was arguing in a thread about not tipping workers at fast food type of places. they basically said anyone in the US was living the “best historical conditions mankind has ever produced,” and that anyone working for $15/hr could work enough hours to improve their situation. this person then admitted to being born into poverty and is currently working for $17/hr yet still drinking the kool aid of US hegemony. this cognitive dissonance among members of the same classes has lately left me feeling pretty apathetic about any kind of meaningful organization..
what do i know, i’m just bitching about it on a $500 cell phone.
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you def not skating if capitalism collapses lol
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Get me off the grid on a little self sustaining farm in the mountains where I can build my own DIY spot and live like a crusty eco-anarchist all alone
I hope you're close to a small self-sufficient, off the grid community that's producing quality decks....and trucks...and bearings...and wheels...I feel like all of these would be very early on the chopping block when we're all farming our own food and and sourcing our own clean, drinkable water.
Not sure where you'll scrounge up the concrete for your DIY spot but I wish you the best of luck!
Seems like an odd response to a tongue in cheek post but ok
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/259/257/342.png)
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Here’s an article that made me want to scream and proof that racism in the US never went away. The same thing happens in Europe by the way.
https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/coverstory/code-snitching-nashvillians-are-weaponizing-metro-codes-against-undesirable-neighbors/article_5e94bd56-0c67-11ed-af4e-e3d04ad7e500.html
I had to read this in short bursts because it just got worse and worse, it reads like a complete parody.
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how do we revive manufacturing in america
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A very normal tweet
https://mobile.twitter.com/thenatlinterest/status/1551001761942568960
what the fuck lol
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you def not skating if capitalism collapses lol
Skateboarding, a mere substitute for hunting elk, picking berries and skipping through the meadow. We won't need it when we return to our natural state.
Seriously though…
If capitalism doesn’t collapse we won’t be doing much of anything. It will collapse either way, whether we want it to or not. Its a self-defeating and finite system. It’s just what we want to see in the aftermath.
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you def not skating if capitalism collapses lol
Skateboarding, a mere substitute for hunting elk, picking berries and skipping through the meadow. We won't need it when we return to our natural state.
this is what i was getting at
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you def not skating if capitalism collapses lol
Socialism is when no wheel
how do we revive manufacturing in america
What caused manufacturing to leave america?
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you def not skating if capitalism collapses lol
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how do we revive manufacturing in america
i didn’t say “you can’t skateboard in a socialist society”, i said after capitalism collapses you won’t be able to skate. i don’t think whats coming after is going to be socialism, esp if all socialists can do is respond to questions with more questions or drop stupid twitter platitudes
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
Caleb Maupin, Max Blumenthal, Joti Brar...hard no. Advocating for basically a New New Deal? Sure. Fine. But this is like Jimmy Dore and Nick Brana leading a "people's movement." They'll alienate more people than they could ever attract.
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so the ideas are right but the people espousing them are wrong?
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The ideas are fine such as they are easy to agree with. It's basically "don't do bad things, only do good things." That's not the problem. The problem is that those are the people normies think everyone on the left is. Three tankies, one of them (Brar) definitely a TERF, and whatever else is going on with Blumenthal these days. Trying to build a left coalition with those three would be a nightmare. Besides that, these aren't revolutionary ideas by any means; that's basically Bernie Sanders' platform with less detail. So with that being the case, they've sort of made it about themselves since there's nothing otherwise unique about it. I'm saying it's cool they're down for all that, but I'd keep them at arms length. That's pretty much what anyone that knows them is already doing.
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The ideas are fine such as they are easy to agree with. It's basically "don't do bad things, only do good things." That's not the problem. The problem is that those are the people normies think everyone on the left is. Three tankies, one of them (Brar) definitely a TERF, and whatever else is going on with Blumenthal these days. Trying to build a left coalition with those three would be a nightmare. Besides that, these aren't revolutionary ideas by any means; that's basically Bernie Sanders' platform with less detail. So with that being the case, they've sort of made it about themselves since there's nothing otherwise unique about it. I'm saying it's cool they're down for all that, but I'd keep them at arms length. That's pretty much what anyone that knows them is already doing.
You're not going to get some sort of virtual pat on the back for calling others tankies, this ain't reddit mate. Yes these people are clown, their program is vague as fuck and they somehow invited people worse than them to speak at events hosted by them and fuck Max in particular, but calling people tankies in a thread literally titled "leftist thread" is redundant, unless we should rename it to something like "dem succ thread 2" perhaps?
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
Aren't these those red brown clowns who had that cringe press conference and are the most obvious "hello fellow communists, not a cia agent here, who would like to purchase some semtex???" guys
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The ideas are fine such as they are easy to agree with. It's basically "don't do bad things, only do good things." That's not the problem. The problem is that those are the people normies think everyone on the left is. Three tankies, one of them (Brar) definitely a TERF, and whatever else is going on with Blumenthal these days. Trying to build a left coalition with those three would be a nightmare. Besides that, these aren't revolutionary ideas by any means; that's basically Bernie Sanders' platform with less detail. So with that being the case, they've sort of made it about themselves since there's nothing otherwise unique about it. I'm saying it's cool they're down for all that, but I'd keep them at arms length. That's pretty much what anyone that knows them is already doing.
You're not going to get some sort of virtual pat on the back for calling others tankies, this ain't reddit mate. Yes these people are clown, their program is vague as fuck and they somehow invited people worse than them to speak at events hosted by them and fuck Max in particular, but calling people tankies in a thread literally titled "leftist thread" is redundant, unless we should rename it to something like "dem succ thread 2" perhaps?
So in other words you don't know what you're talking about? And busted out Reddit to someone that doesn't even have a Reddit account or ever even read it. What makes you think I want a pat on the back, mate?
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
Aren't these those red brown clowns who had that cringe press conference and are the most obvious "hello fellow communists, not a cia agent here, who would like to purchase some semtex???" guys
I tried to put it a nicer way and that maybe didn't go so well.
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
Aren't these those red brown clowns who had that cringe press conference and are the most obvious "hello fellow communists, not a cia agent here, who would like to purchase some semtex???" guys
Eh fuck it, we don’t play that state capitalist (Leninist) shit ‘round these parts
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The ideas are fine such as they are easy to agree with. It's basically "don't do bad things, only do good things." That's not the problem. The problem is that those are the people normies think everyone on the left is. Three tankies, one of them (Brar) definitely a TERF, and whatever else is going on with Blumenthal these days. Trying to build a left coalition with those three would be a nightmare. Besides that, these aren't revolutionary ideas by any means; that's basically Bernie Sanders' platform with less detail. So with that being the case, they've sort of made it about themselves since there's nothing otherwise unique about it. I'm saying it's cool they're down for all that, but I'd keep them at arms length. That's pretty much what anyone that knows them is already doing.
You're not going to get some sort of virtual pat on the back for calling others tankies, this ain't reddit mate. Yes these people are clown, their program is vague as fuck and they somehow invited people worse than them to speak at events hosted by them and fuck Max in particular, but calling people tankies in a thread literally titled "leftist thread" is redundant, unless we should rename it to something like "dem succ thread 2" perhaps?
The only people I ever encounter that use the word tankie turn out to be run of the mill liberals and anti-communists so I'm amused to see it used in a thread where communists post. Expand Quote
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
Aren't these those red brown clowns who had that cringe press conference and are the most obvious "hello fellow communists, not a cia agent here, who would like to purchase some semtex???" guys
Eh fuck it, we don’t play that state capitalist (Leninist) shit ‘round these parts
what?
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The ideas are fine such as they are easy to agree with. It's basically "don't do bad things, only do good things." That's not the problem. The problem is that those are the people normies think everyone on the left is. Three tankies, one of them (Brar) definitely a TERF, and whatever else is going on with Blumenthal these days. Trying to build a left coalition with those three would be a nightmare. Besides that, these aren't revolutionary ideas by any means; that's basically Bernie Sanders' platform with less detail. So with that being the case, they've sort of made it about themselves since there's nothing otherwise unique about it. I'm saying it's cool they're down for all that, but I'd keep them at arms length. That's pretty much what anyone that knows them is already doing.
You're not going to get some sort of virtual pat on the back for calling others tankies, this ain't reddit mate. Yes these people are clown, their program is vague as fuck and they somehow invited people worse than them to speak at events hosted by them and fuck Max in particular, but calling people tankies in a thread literally titled "leftist thread" is redundant, unless we should rename it to something like "dem succ thread 2" perhaps?
The only people I ever encounter that use the word tankie turn out to be run of the mill liberals and anti-communists so I'm amused to see it used in a thread where communists post. Expand Quote
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
Aren't these those red brown clowns who had that cringe press conference and are the most obvious "hello fellow communists, not a cia agent here, who would like to purchase some semtex???" guys
Eh fuck it, we don’t play that state capitalist (Leninist) shit ‘round these parts
what?
Maybe you should get out more.
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@newguy that means you’re probably only hanging out with tankies.
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so marxists then, correct.
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I always assumed tankie was more related to Stalinists and USSR stans, maybe toss in some authoritarian Maoists for good measure. At least that's how I've always used it. The auth-left is pretty worthy of scorn imo.
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so marxists then, correct.
JFC
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I always assumed tankie was more related to Stalinists and USSR stans, maybe toss in some authoritarian Maoists for good measure. At least that's how I've always used it. The auth-left is pretty worthy of scorn imo.
This is pretty much it right here. It's a term invented by Marxists to disparage asshole Marxists.
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I got no beef with libertarian Marxists and all the neat tendencies that fall within that umbrella.
But any form of Marxism that advocates for the usurping one vanguard with a people’s vanguard…
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMXbFTH9/20-CCD498-311-B-46-C0-868-C-4523086-F6-C9-C.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I will not hear any slander of my boy enver
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I always assumed tankie was more related to Stalinists and USSR stans, maybe toss in some authoritarian Maoists for good measure. At least that's how I've always used it. The auth-left is pretty worthy of scorn imo.
not true at all. "tankies" was popularized by westerners (brits iirc?) to refer to other, pro-soviet westerners during WW2/Cold war. it is not a leftist term. when used within leftism it is considered revisionist/counter-revolutionary by marxists and antifascist by anarchists.
i've noticed the anarchist and communist divide within leftists is pretty strong online: anarchists hate the red fascists and communists hate the ineffectual individualists blablabla. but this opens up a good leftist "lesser of two evils" thought experiment: capitalism collapsed, nationalist fascism is as powerful and organized as it can, and there are only two options within the left, would you rather...
a) support state communism knowing full well that individual liberties will pay the price while gauging war against fascism and counterrevolution
b) support anarchism knowing full well you'll never address global/systemic issues and the safety/freedom you created is individualist/tribal at best
crude oversimplifications, but might be a good conversation?
feel free to criticize but please, americans and europeans, take a deep breath before coming in with CIA/NATO propaganda. check yourself and your sources first.
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not true at all. "tankies" was popularized by westerners (brits iirc?) to refer to other, pro-soviet westerners during WW2/Cold war. it is not a leftist term. when used within leftism it is considered revisionist/counter-revolutionary by marxists and antifascist by anarchists.
i've noticed the anarchist and communist divide within leftists is pretty strong online: anarchists hate the red fascists and communists hate the ineffectual individualists blablabla. but this opens up a good leftist "lesser of two evils" thought experiment: capitalism collapsed, nationalist fascism is as powerful and organized as it can, and there are only two options within the left, would you rather...
a) support state communism knowing full well that individual liberties will pay the price while gauging war against fascism and counterrevolution
b) support anarchism knowing full well you'll never address global/systemic issues and the safety/freedom you created is individualist/tribal at best
crude oversimplifications, but might be a good conversation?
feel free to criticize but please, americans and europeans, take a deep breath before coming in with CIA/NATO propaganda. check yourself and your sources first.
It is true:
Anecdotally, it seems that term ‘tankie’ emerged in the 1970s as a pejorative term to describe those who supported the Soviet actions in 1968 and was used in internal disputes, especially around the 1977 revamping of the CPGB programme, The British Road to Socialism, where Eurocommunist ideas reached the upper echelons of the party. The 1977 programme emphasised new social movements as part of a ‘broad democratic alliance’, which caused a pro-Soviet section of the party to leave to form the pro-Stalin New Communist Party (headed by Sid French). The NCP were the archetypal ‘tankies’ and probably referred to by their opposition within the CPGB, although none of the polemical documents created inside the CPGB use the term nor does any of the coverage of the 1977 split by any of the CPGB’s rivals on the far left that has been uncovered so far. As Willie Thompson wrote in his 1992 history of the CPGB:
‘Sectarians’, ‘traditionalists’ and ‘Stalinists’ were all employed, the first being favoured in formal debate, although in private conversation it was usually ‘tankie’, from the support this faction had given to the Czechoslovak invasion.
Tankie: The Origins of an Epithet (https://hatfulofhistory.wordpress.com/2020/01/27/tankie-the-origins-of-an-epithet/)
As far as online leftist discourse, it very much seems to mainly consist of arguments among recently radicalized people that don't really know what they're talking about. Old heads tend to just stay away from it. Concerning that thought experiment: under those conditions there's no time to argue over whether a or b, we just have to all agree to be antifascist. This is pretty close to current reality, which is why I have the disposition of "we don't have time to argue about this shit." The damn normies are having arguments over whether or not the senate parliamentarian should just be ignored so congress can pass a bill that marginally addresses climate change. We're in really bad shape. The Doomsday Clock is at 100 seconds to midnight, which seems optimistic to me at this point.
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I appreciate the info, I was def missing some context there (and didn’t check myself as I suggested ha)
And yeah… I feel you for sure, it’s a valid answer. I think we really need to trust that our fellow leftists are doing their best praxis out in the world, and do so ourselves too. one could say leftist unity is a necessity more than an ideal at this point, which is why seeing all the internet infighting can be so disheartening at times…
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Thank you. As an anarcho-syndicalist I do appreciate conversations around the finer details even when they do get contentious. The problem, though, is that there are so many realities we have to pass through to get to such a point that it's just blowing smoke. How do we facilitate passing through those realities? Who the fuck knows? I don't have a lot of time left and I really feel for the kids. I don't know how they're going to dig their way out of it. At least they seem to have identified that the problem is neo-liberalism. There's some hope.
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do any of us know about these people?
https://cpiusa.org/government-of-action
A Four-Point Plan to Rescue the Country
1A Mass Mobilization to Rebuild The Country. Now is the time to hire the millions of unemployed at union wages. ...
2Public Ownership of Natural Resources. ...
3Public Control of Banking. ...
4An Economic Bill of Rights.
My only issue with it is that it doesn't explicitly mention foreign policy
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elite".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
This is so accurate.
I grew up with posh side of the family and more redneck side of the family.
Both were extremely successful boomers...
So I've had a taste of the good life while my older gen X parents struggled.
I always was confused why my Texas hunter/fisherman friends were not voting for environmental policies to conserve their lifestyle. Then I remembered most were employed by oil and gas adjacent jobs so they are caught in a trap. Bite the hand that feeds?
They always would laugh at city folk etc but the reality is they were just as bougie, just different products.
for example. yeti coolers, big expensive trucks etc. The illusion of a culture difference is perpetuated when the reality is besides the religious nuts, they have more in common with people making the same money as they are.
The "soon to be millionaire" fantasy people think that is a lot of money, and vote red when they need to realize the taxation needs to go to fuck you money people and corporations that exploit lobbyists to influence policy to create profit without playing by the rules individuals are bound by.
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I know I'm a leftist, but I have absolutely no clue what my taxonomy would be.
I'm not really a student of formal/academic leftist writing, but I happen to fit some molds (as I've been told by folks that are more into that than I am).
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I know I'm a leftist, but I have absolutely no clue what my taxonomy would be.
I'm not really a student of formal/academic leftist writing, but I happen to fit some molds (as I've been told by folks that are more into that than I am).
Honestly I'm here for left unity. Petty infighting is op shit. Don't do it unless the CIA banks up the Brinks truck
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I too firmly believe a collapse is much more likely to occur before any real reform happens.
I also firmly believe that the term "tankies" should be applicable to half-human, half-tank hybrid transformer types of folks.
Interesting thread, I don't know much about this topic I just know I am over business as usual and the two party system and all it entails.
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I know I'm a leftist, but I have absolutely no clue what my taxonomy would be.
I'm not really a student of formal/academic leftist writing, but I happen to fit some molds (as I've been told by folks that are more into that than I am).
Honestly I'm here for left unity. Petty infighting is op shit. Don't do it unless the CIA banks up the Brinks truck
yeah i’m with this. unless you’re in a group that’s well organized, boiling your politics down to certain terms seems kind of unproductive. maybe i’m wrong.
binged the new season of blowback, and along with that ‘loyal citizens of pyongyang in seoul’ documentary i have a lot more questions about north korea and wonder if we’ll ever know what’s really the situation there
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nancy pelosi rocks
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You gotta hand it to her...she makes sure you know she knows what day of the week it is.
(https://c.tenor.com/7gYeROdkCvsAAAAd/nancy-pelosi-sunday-morning.gif)
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Thank you. As an anarcho-syndicalist I do appreciate conversations around the finer details even when they do get contentious. The problem, though, is that there are so many realities we have to pass through to get to such a point that it's just blowing smoke. How do we facilitate passing through those realities? Who the fuck knows? I don't have a lot of time left and I really feel for the kids. I don't know how they're going to dig their way out of it. At least they seem to have identified that the problem is neo-liberalism. There's some hope.
You have a bright future here.
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hi I'm new here and don't really know what to ID as (leftist is likely accurate) but
-I hate gerrymandering, the electoral college, and the lack of secularism in the US
-just want socialized medicine and am very passionate about it
-corporations and capitalism must be dismantled
-I'm collapse aware and am frustrated more people are not aware
-honestly terrified I won't be able to marry my partner because we're both women
-not stoked on losing my human/bodily rights because of religion and general ignorance
hello comrades. my background is in biological science so I admittedly do not know much about sociology, political science, theology, etc etc but I hope to learn some new things from info you guys share.
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hi I'm new here and don't really know what to ID as (leftist is likely accurate) but
-I hate gerrymandering, the electoral college, and the lack of secularism in the US
-just want socialized medicine and am very passionate about it
-corporations and capitalism must be dismantled
-I'm collapse aware and am frustrated more people are not aware
-honestly terrified I won't be able to marry my partner because we're both women
-not stoked on losing my human/bodily rights because of religion and general ignorance
hello comrades. my background is in biological science so I admittedly do not know much about sociology, political science, theology, etc etc but I hope to learn some new things from info you guys share.
Welcome!
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I don’t think it’s a necessity to know your ideology, but it can help. i struggle to identify as anything beyond marxist, just bc I believe historical materialism and class analysis will always lead us in the correct direction for leftism. On the other hand it feels like a cop out, as our material conditions are ever changing so the correct analysis to guide our praxis might elude us. i guess I feel like marxism is a great tool, but one that can be tricky to use?
if anyone is interested in marxism, a book that helped me was The Marx-Engels Reader (Link to PDF (https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Marx-Engels-Reader.pdf)). I remember reading the introduction and how much it resonated with my feelings towards the world.
-just want socialized medicine and am very passionate about it
I’m happy you’re here, caked. I am a marine scientist so I know that feeling of fish out of water.
I’ve been meaning to read this 1975 essay on healthcare with a COVID-updated introduction (Link to PDF (https://foreignlanguages.press/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/S19-A-New-Outlook-on-Health.pdf)) but haven’t gotten to it yet. Sounds like it might be up your alley!
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(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/43493525.jpg)
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I don’t think it’s a necessity to know your ideology, but it can help. i struggle to identify as anything beyond marxist, just bc I believe historical materialism and class analysis will always lead us in the correct direction for leftism. On the other hand it feels like a cop out, as our material conditions are ever changing so the correct analysis to guide our praxis might elude us. i guess I feel like marxism is a great tool, but one that can be tricky to use?
if anyone is interested in marxism, a book that helped me was The Marx-Engels Reader (Link to PDF (https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Marx-Engels-Reader.pdf)). I remember reading the introduction and how much it resonated with my feelings towards the world.
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-just want socialized medicine and am very passionate about it
I’m happy you’re here, caked. I am a marine scientist so I know that feeling of fish out of water.
I’ve been meaning to read this 1975 essay on healthcare with a COVID-updated introduction (Link to PDF (https://foreignlanguages.press/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/S19-A-New-Outlook-on-Health.pdf)) but haven’t gotten to it yet. Sounds like it might be up your alley!
marine science, awesome! that was actually my dream career as a kid. some of these days I wish I were a marine biologist!
big thanks weon for those two links, especially the latter one. will be reading it the next few days.
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Here is a great lecture from Rick Roderick, with this bit of wisdom:
"If you live by an ideology, the most dangerous ideology to you is your own, because someone may expect you to do what you say."
Sadly he didn't live to see Mark Hamill play him in the third Star Wars trilogy.
https://youtu.be/2MsNyR-epBM
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Sounds like it might be up your alley!
Sorry, but this had to be done
(https://y.yarn.co/b88c77e4-f0e3-442a-929f-3591ab3124b4_text.gif)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/E-YXPqvX0AEINwD.jpg)
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https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg2bseVlcj2/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
This is why a real left is needed in the US.
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That do you all think of that gray streak in Tulsi Gabbard’s hair?
I think it’s fucking cool.
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That do you all think of that gray streak in Tulsi Gabbard’s hair?
I think it’s fucking cool.
That gray streak defends torture, which is significantly less cool than fucking.
Aloha, not for everyone apparently.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
Regurgitating Pro-Russia talking points about the invasion of Ukraine is not based. At all.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
Regurgitating Pro-Russia talking points about the invasion of Ukraine is not based. At all.
Waters' heart seems to be in the right place but I wouldn't consider him an intelligent observer. A fellow traveler but not too bright.
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Watching that interview...there's nothing he says that's outright bad. Simplistic, but not totally cringe. He's talking with a moron so it's relative.
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Watching that interview...there's nothing he says that's outright bad. Simplistic, but not totally cringe. He's talking with a moron so it's relative.
He said plenty of outright bad things. Who he's talking to is irrelevant. Just to be clear:
- The war started when Russia invaded Ukraine
- NATO's promise to Gorbachev was to not expand into East Germany
- Taiwan is not part of China
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Roger Waters is a twat. Now, David Gilmour? Such a man! I would follow him to hell and back, I would!
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Pink Floyd is way, way overrated.
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Also very true.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg2bseVlcj2/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
This is why a real left is needed in the US.
And still, no one is chatting this up. I was caught off guard when this played last week.
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Watching that interview...there's nothing he says that's outright bad. Simplistic, but not totally cringe. He's talking with a moron so it's relative.
He said plenty of outright bad things. Who he's talking to is irrelevant. Just to be clear:
- The war started when Russia invaded Ukraine
- NATO's promise to Gorbachev was to not expand into East Germany
- Taiwan is not part of China
There's nothing he said there that disputes that there's a war between Russia and Ukraine and that Russia invaded Ukraine.
NATOs promise...yeah, that's what he said. Nearly all scholarship on the subject agrees that the US either made promises or gave the appearance of making promises not to expand any further east. But also agrees that the US had it's fingers crossed at the time so it doesn't count. So there's really nothing wrong with what he said there.
Taiwan is officially recognized as a part of China. As contentious an issue as that may be, what he said there is true. They weren't exactly having a nuanced discussion of a complex situation there.
These things are pretty clear. Disagreeing with them is a thing people do.
The guy's said some pretty stupid shit before but he didn't really do that here. Had it gone on much longer he almost certainly would have,
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
Regurgitating Pro-Russia talking points about the invasion of Ukraine is not based. At all.
That's like saying that "Iraq didn't have WMDs" is regurgitating pro-Iraq talking points. Why would you keep trusting the sources that gave you that information? They also said Iraq had "incubator babies" and Saddam was putting people in shredders.
Do you know America backed a coup in Ukraine in 2014 that overthrew the democratically elected government? And America helped neo-Nazis gain power there to use against Russia? This war is a proxy US war with Russia. The US wants regime change in Russia and China because those two countries are not vassals of the US like most of Western Europe and lot of East Asia are. America doesn't actually care about the human rights of Muslims in Xinjiang or the sovereignty of Taiwan except in terms of how they serve America's geopolitical issues. America wants to destabilize and balkanize these two countries, which is why it's so concerned with the affairs of these two countries. It's not for reasons of benevolence.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg2bseVlcj2/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
This is why a real left is needed in the US.
And still, no one is chatting this up. I was caught off guard when this played last week.
It's definitely a bad idea of a bill. It's no surprise coming from Cuellar and Stefanik. But Pelosi and Clyburn badly wanted Cuellar to win in Texas because they don't care about you. I don't think that bill is going to make it out of the house and it probably wouldn't pass the senate, but they'll keep trying.
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The Usual Suspects
What may be a surprise, however, is who else is backing the bill: the Coalition for Workforce Innovation (CWI), formed in 2019 as part of a wave of corporate pushback to a surge of labor organizing in exploitative industries across the economy. CWI in particular was formed in the wake of advancements in California labor law that threatened to end misclassification of independent contractors across a host of sectors and has since swelled in size. It boasts a sprawling roster of member companies that spans multiple sectors and includes major corporations such as Amazon, Walmart, Target, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Uber, Lyft, TaskRabbit, Postmates, and FedEx, as well as trade groups such as the Retail Industry Leaders Association.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxnn4q/conservative-democrat-introduces-labor-bill-that-would-exempt-millions-from-a-minimum-wage
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
Regurgitating Pro-Russia talking points about the invasion of Ukraine is not based. At all.
That's like saying that "Iraq didn't have WMDs" is regurgitating pro-Iraq talking points. Why would you keep trusting the sources that gave you that information? They also said Iraq had "incubator babies" and Saddam was putting people in shredders.
Do you know America backed a coup in Ukraine in 2014 that overthrew the democratically elected government? And America helped neo-Nazis gain power there to use against Russia? This war is a proxy US war with Russia. The US wants regime change in Russia and China because those two countries are not vassals of the US like most of Western Europe and lot of East Asia are. America doesn't actually care about the human rights of Muslims in Xinjiang or the sovereignty of Taiwan except in terms of how they serve America's geopolitical issues. America wants to destabilize and balkanize these two countries, which is why it's so concerned with the affairs of these two countries. It's not for reasons of benevolence.
I'm not going through the motions with you so I'll just applaud you for keeping an open mind. Just make sure your brains don't fall out of your cranium.
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From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.
I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.
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From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.
I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.
You know what the biggest difference is? The right is well-funded. Astroturfed. Your sanctimonious bullshit isn't going to change that. Your own party is helping the worst of the far right at this very fucking moment.
What you call "fucking overnight" are things people have been fighting for for over a century. Universal health care? You know there are countries that have had that for nearly 80 years, right? We got a private market driven Heritage Foundation proposal with no public option...when Dems had a super majority. Well over 100 years after the idea of a publicly funded health service was a popular idea. "Fucking overnight." How do you think we got labor protections? Unemployment insurance? Social Security? You wouldn't have any of that shit if not for "fucking crybabies."
How do you think you got far right judges? Either centrists or right-wingers have been in charge the whole time. This is the best they are willing to do. But we still got the guy who fucked over poor people as hard as he could elected to fix the problems he created, and he's not doing that. This is part of the reason it's easy for right-wingers to grift voters. All they really have to do is ask "how's that been working out for you?" They already know the answer and it's "not very fucking good." That's why you can't consistently win elections, because you don't help people. You call things like universal healthcare "utopia." Do you think it's wise to consider their survival a utopian ideal?
You only regurgitated stupid liberal talking points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw
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From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.
I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.
What you call "fucking overnight" are things people have been fighting for for over a century. Universal health care? You know there are countries that have had that for nearly 80 years, right? We got a private market driven Heritage Foundation proposal with no public option...when Dems had a super majority. Well over 100 years after the idea of a publicly funded health service was a popular idea. "Fucking overnight." How do you think we got labor protections? Unemployment insurance? Social Security? You wouldn't have any of that shit if not for "fucking crybabies."
How do you think you got far right judges? Either centrists or right-wingers have been in charge the whole time. This is the best they are willing to do. But we still got the guy who fucked over poor people as hard as he could elected to fix the problems he created, and he's not doing that. This is part of the reason it's easy for right-wingers to grift voters. All they really have to do is ask "how's that been working out for you?" They already know the answer and it's "not very fucking good." That's why you can't consistently win elections, because you don't help people. You call things like universal healthcare "utopia." Do you think it's wise to consider their survival a utopian ideal?
You only regurgitated stupid liberal talking points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw
To be fair trashpop has a point about internet leftists and about some student leftists. The radical left does have the tendency to get involved into fights with each other. Having discussions with young leftists radicals, usually students who are financed by their parents, can he frustrating. Then if you talk to them again ten years later they have turned out liberal or even conservative.
I completely disagree about the point that leftists „don‘t grind“. Have you ever been involved in protests or unionizing? BLM activists worked hard, Amazon workers put a lot on the line for their efforts to unionize. There are countless struggles going on, but you don‘t really hear about them because they don’t really fit the narrative of neither the liberal nor the conservative media. Only places like democracy now or jacobin will cover them.
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From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.
I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.
What you call "fucking overnight" are things people have been fighting for for over a century. Universal health care? You know there are countries that have had that for nearly 80 years, right? We got a private market driven Heritage Foundation proposal with no public option...when Dems had a super majority. Well over 100 years after the idea of a publicly funded health service was a popular idea. "Fucking overnight." How do you think we got labor protections? Unemployment insurance? Social Security? You wouldn't have any of that shit if not for "fucking crybabies."
How do you think you got far right judges? Either centrists or right-wingers have been in charge the whole time. This is the best they are willing to do. But we still got the guy who fucked over poor people as hard as he could elected to fix the problems he created, and he's not doing that. This is part of the reason it's easy for right-wingers to grift voters. All they really have to do is ask "how's that been working out for you?" They already know the answer and it's "not very fucking good." That's why you can't consistently win elections, because you don't help people. You call things like universal healthcare "utopia." Do you think it's wise to consider their survival a utopian ideal?
You only regurgitated stupid liberal talking points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw
To be fair trashpop has a point about internet leftists and about some student leftists. The radical left does have the tendency to get involved into fights with each other. Having discussions with young leftists radicals, usually students who are financed by their parents, can he frustrating. Then if you talk to them again ten years later they have turned out liberal or even conservative.
I completely disagree about the point that leftists „don‘t grind“. Have you ever been involved in protests or unionizing? BLM activists worked hard, Amazon workers put a lot on the line for their efforts to unionize. There are countless struggles going on, but you don‘t really hear about them because they don’t really fit the narrative of neither the liberal nor the conservative media. Only places like democracy now or jacobin will cover them.
There's nothing particularly fair to anyone there. It's not like Congress won't pass bills because of the online left or student activists. They don't pass them because it doesn't serve their interests. They don't work for you. It has not one thing to do with the internet or online leftists arguing with each other over inane things. Is there really anyone that thinks if online leftists would just be quiet Manchin would forgo putting land leases for oil companies into a climate bill and Sinema would be fine with eliminating the carried interest loophole? That's nonsensical. Yelling at people yelling at them actually helps validate their position. Funnily enough, it's online centrists carrying that water. We just saw one. Right here. I don't want to be fair to that.
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"But at least we got something"
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51QgZQ-BOnL._AC_.jpg)
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From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.
I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.
What you call "fucking overnight" are things people have been fighting for for over a century. Universal health care? You know there are countries that have had that for nearly 80 years, right? We got a private market driven Heritage Foundation proposal with no public option...when Dems had a super majority. Well over 100 years after the idea of a publicly funded health service was a popular idea. "Fucking overnight." How do you think we got labor protections? Unemployment insurance? Social Security? You wouldn't have any of that shit if not for "fucking crybabies."
How do you think you got far right judges? Either centrists or right-wingers have been in charge the whole time. This is the best they are willing to do. But we still got the guy who fucked over poor people as hard as he could elected to fix the problems he created, and he's not doing that. This is part of the reason it's easy for right-wingers to grift voters. All they really have to do is ask "how's that been working out for you?" They already know the answer and it's "not very fucking good." That's why you can't consistently win elections, because you don't help people. You call things like universal healthcare "utopia." Do you think it's wise to consider their survival a utopian ideal?
You only regurgitated stupid liberal talking points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw
To be fair trashpop has a point about internet leftists and about some student leftists. The radical left does have the tendency to get involved into fights with each other. Having discussions with young leftists radicals, usually students who are financed by their parents, can he frustrating. Then if you talk to them again ten years later they have turned out liberal or even conservative.
I completely disagree about the point that leftists „don‘t grind“. Have you ever been involved in protests or unionizing? BLM activists worked hard, Amazon workers put a lot on the line for their efforts to unionize. There are countless struggles going on, but you don‘t really hear about them because they don’t really fit the narrative of neither the liberal nor the conservative media. Only places like democracy now or jacobin will cover them.
Alright. I agree with you. But: I think that centrist guy is potentially on our side. He does try to vote for the most left candidate of the democrats and he checked out this thread… this shit is not about winning arguments on the internet it is about offering an alternative.
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He does try to vote for the most left candidate? That's not what he said. This is what he said:
If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
If I say
You can't trust that. That person is telling you that they don't actually do that. That was the reason I linked the Ochs song.
Nobody said it has anything to do with winning an argument on the internet. Dude gave his assessment of a political position and I gave my assessment of his.
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He does try to vote for the most left candidate? That's not what he said. This is what he said:
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If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
You can't trust that. That person is telling you that they don't actually do that. That was the reason I linked the Ochs song.
Nobody said it has anything to do with winning an argument on the internet. Dude gave his assessment of a political position and I gave my assessment of his.
Oh, I do vote in every election, including primaries. I voted for Lucas Kunce just a few days ago, he was endorsed by Bernie Sanders which goes a long way for me. He lost to some rich, white lady (Trudy Busch-Valentine). I'll still vote for her in November though cause the Republicans candidates here in Missouri are fucking psychopaths. She's not perfect but at least she's in favor of gay and women's rights, is in favor of raising minimum wage and seems to have the backing of a lot of local labor unions.
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So then what was the point of your rant?
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Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.
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Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.
Spain, Scotland, Japan, Iceland, The United Arab Emirates (!) are all doing it.
There was a bill in the house to shorten the workweek to 32 hours. I'm sure American workers will get there someday, just not the ones that process food or do any kind of serious labor. It's America, after all. Poor people work hard so we don't have to.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e)
https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours (https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours)
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joined up the local DSA. i know everybody has opinions about the red rose folks but it’ll be my first experience participating in an actual organization
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New Leftist podcast w/ jason myles and left reckoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6klnIt5Jeo
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From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.
I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.
I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.
I think you have sensationally misplaced your anger. The anger comes from exasperation, right? We're all exasperated here. Americans are pretty insufferable in general. The weight of unfettered capitalism has exasperated many. There's no need to rant at internet leftists, it's very unhelpful and just contributes to division. Harness the anger against those who deserve it most. Corporations and politicians.
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Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.
There was a bill in the house to shorten the workweek to 32 hours. I'm sure American workers will get there someday, just not the ones that process food or do any kind of serious labor. It's America, after all. Poor people work hard so we don't have to.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e)
https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours (https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours)
Thanks for sharing that article, didn’t know about the legislation introduced. That’s good although sadly I think you’re right about America & it’s attitude towards poor people. I can see how a shorter work week may not end up applying to a lot of workers.
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Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.
There was a bill in the house to shorten the workweek to 32 hours. I'm sure American workers will get there someday, just not the ones that process food or do any kind of serious labor. It's America, after all. Poor people work hard so we don't have to.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e)
https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours (https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours)
I often think of this movie quote when it comes to how we human beings conduct our affairs, which I think explains why it tends to be miserable to be a leftist:
It must be nice to always believe you know better, to always think you're the smartest person in the room
No, it's awful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ATJhCIeaqo
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New Leftist podcast w/ jason myles and left reckoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6klnIt5Jeo
I've been watching both channels for a while now. Well, I'm one of the first 100 Left Reckoning patrons (#90 something, they went fast). I had been a patron of The Michael Brooks Show which is basically what Left Reckoning is minus Brooks. During lockdown I hung out on the TMBS discord a lot, mostly while The Majority Report and TMBS were live. I was hanging out there the day Michael passed. There were about three hours when no one really knew why MR ended suddenly.
I enjoy This Is Revolution and think them and LR doing shows together is a good idea.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
Here is Bad Empanada going over this clip. Now, Empanada is a mixed bag; he does very well researched video essays that are excellent and does pretty good on-the-fly analysis most of the time. He knows a lot about the issues. He also has some kind of online personality disorder that makes him insufferable once provoked by the slightest disagreement. It's like he has a video personality and a text personality. This is the video personality, and it's a pretty good breakdown of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI
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New Leftist podcast w/ jason myles and left reckoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6klnIt5Jeo
I enjoy This Is Revolution and think them and LR doing shows together is a good idea.
I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice. I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience. Took a minute to start watching MR again
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I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice. I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience. Took a minute to start watching MR again
That particular dynamic MR had at that time, with Jamie being the deadass communist, Sam being the bland progressive, and Michael being the bridge between the two of them was unique. Pretty good encapsulation of what passes for the American left.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI
He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI
He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.
What genocide has he denied?
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI
He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.
Misremembered him being an "Uyghur genocide isn't happening" tankie. Apologies. Good to know he draws the line somewhere, though he comes off as an unhinged person when it comes to interactions online. Threats of doxxing, pedojacketing and generally toxic behaviour.
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Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.
https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/
A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.
I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up
It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.
On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.
http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI
He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.
No prob. There's definitely something weird happening with that person. I think he's on his fourth Twitter account by now. It's pretty bizarre.
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I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice. I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience. Took a minute to start watching MR again
I liked Jaimes communist rantings a lot, plus she was often times stoned which was cool, i think shes friends with Skrillex which is random as fuck
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I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice. I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience. Took a minute to start watching MR again
I liked Jaimes communist rantings a lot, plus she was often times stoned which was cool, i think shes friends with Skrillex which is random as fuck
Did you ever listen to her podcast The Antifada? There was (maybe still is, idk) a series they did called History Is A Weapon that is really good. They did a two-parter on Nixon that was just amazing.
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I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice. I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience. Took a minute to start watching MR again
I liked Jaimes communist rantings a lot, plus she was often times stoned which was cool, i think shes friends with Skrillex which is random as fuck
Yea shes not always on that show but i followed them when i was on twitch last year
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controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.
feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here
anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.
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controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.
feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here
anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.
I don't think there is such a thing as you're asking for, not that I've been able to find in terms of a nuanced anti-imperialist take. But I don't think it's that difficult to get a basic understanding of it. Basically, it's China's version of the US War On Terror, which the CCP has actually referenced. They don't deny the existence of "reeducation camps" or the reason for them, which is just good old fashioned Islamophobia. Reports vary on conditions in the camps, but from what I can gather it's probably somewhere between Gitmo and US immigrant detention centers. So definitely human rights violations. Is China doing imperialism? Yes. Are they lying about it? Of course. Is there misinformation coming out of America? You bet your ass. These are the two main players on the world stage now. The Belt and Road Initiative is American imperialism with Chinese characteristics, which involves a lot less bombing of other countries. When the US starts pointing fingers at other countries for human rights violations, it's never really about that. The US doesn't give a shit...they've done far worse. It's about economic things. But yes, China is purposely mistreating the Uyghurs and it's egregious. Think of what the US does and has done to suspected terrorists and "illegal" immigrants and that should get you pretty close.
This is why I favor anarcho-syndicalism. Nation-states suck shit.
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controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.
feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here
anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.
This is why I favor anarcho-syndicalism. Nation-states suck shit.
thanks for your take homie, it helps. i guess rethinking what i said, i was hoping for was a synthesis of facts about the situation with an anti-imperialist framing.
i have a hard time believing the islamophobia angle, since the camps have support from many muslim majority nations. some of those countries even send people to the camps. the questions remaining are who are they sending, who is sending them, and what are their alleged crimes. i think regardless of political motivations, if china's social imperialism endorsed islamophobia to that level id doubt these countries would support them in this way.
the UN human rights secretary visited the camps and said no human rights violations were taking place. do i trust her? no... mostly cus the UN is sus and i already didnt trust her when she was my president. But... so many UN members states have pushed for coining it a genocide, which makes internal UN disagreement even more confounding. the first report of human rights violations done on the camps were financed by the "Victims of Communism USA" which is a joke org to me tbh, but before that, american media was praising China for fighting alleged islamic extremism in the area.
i think this the one thing that got me almost in like an "uh oh..." way: china claiming the camps are meant to combat jihadism in the area, and the US previously being vocal about supporting that goal. made me wonder, what would be the "best" path forward for a situation like this? what is the leftist praxis to deal with society's fascists, patsocs, jihadists, christian ultranationalists, proud boys, etc.?
education is obviously the long term, intergenerational solution. do i trust that that's what china is doing? not really... hard to believe state-run media (hence why reading CCP internal documents could help). does it come closer to the "ideal" solution? maybe, perhaps a lot closer than the US has ever gotten, even if its still far... Is it genocide? i have no fucking clue... Is it horrible? likely, they're internment camps anyway you look at em...
more than anything i feel like the two options are either american-backed "its a genocide" or China-backed "we're doing good things." there's no nuance in what is being done thats truly wrong and what is the resolution of an "antagonistic contradiction" (in maoist terms). there's gotta be something we can learn from these internment camps without having to praise them or label them as genocidal, especially when our opinion on it is purely of political interest by the two largest empires in the world.
TL;DR: i think too much and it can make me sad and confused but weed sometimes helps but sometimes doesnt
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controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.
feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here
anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.
This is why I favor anarcho-syndicalism. Nation-states suck shit.
thanks for your take homie, it helps. i guess rethinking what i said, i was hoping for was a synthesis of facts about the situation with an anti-imperialist framing.
It's China, they're not very forthcoming. Synthesis of facts is going to be extraordinarily difficult. Such is the case with all governments. I don't think they honor FOIA requests.
i have a hard time believing the islamophobia angle, since the camps have support from many muslim majority nations.
They support China, not necessarily the camps. You should go through the list of those countries. It includes North Korea, Myanmar (which just got coup'ed), Syria, Philippines...this isn't indicative of anything. The US had a nuclear deal with Iran, then didn't have a nuclear deal with Iran, and now is trying to have a nuclear deal with Iran again because we've had three different leaders in that time. Those countries don't change leadership every 4-8 years. It's a list filled with dictatorships that make any deals they want. Erdogan did a 180 on China and I assure you it's not because Turks were totally into it. Not a point in China's favor. This is just geopolitical economic stuff.
some of those countries even send people to the camps. the questions remaining are who are they sending, who is sending them, and what are their alleged crimes. i think regardless of political motivations, if china's social imperialism endorsed islamophobia to that level id doubt these countries would support them in this way.
They aren't so much sending them to the camps as getting rid of them. They've struck extradition deals with China. Muslim countries also "sent" their citizens to Gitmo for whatever crimes the US wanted to put people in Gitmo for. Didn't even matter if it was the right person or crime or whatever. I don't see a difference here.
the UN human rights secretary visited the camps and said no human rights violations were taking place.
That is not what she said. She said she was assured by the Chinese government that "the VETC system has been dismantled" among other assurances as they whisked her through a brief tour. Well, if they say so. The reason I bring up Gitmo and immigrant detention camps is because the story sounds exactly the same. They wouldn't let elected federal US officials into those facilities. I'm sure it was because everything was just fine.
so many UN members states have pushed for coining it a genocide, which makes internal UN disagreement even more confounding. the first report of human rights violations done on the camps were financed by the "Victims of Communism USA" which is a joke org to me tbh, but before that, american media was praising China for fighting alleged islamic extremism in the area.
Those are the western states which are always aligned with the US. They love to do this shit. Is it actually a genocide? No. Will it lead to a genocide? Not likely. That word gets overused to the point it can mean what anyone wants it to mean. This is exactly the reason I would ignore all that bullshit and only consider the people having their rights taken away. Organizations like that exist to make it easier to erode human rights. I suppose calling things "victims of communism" will never get old. It sure hasn't yet.
i think this the one thing that got me almost in like an "uh oh..." way: china claiming the camps are meant to combat jihadism in the area, and the US previously being vocal about supporting that goal. made me wonder, what would be the "best" path forward for a situation like this? what is the leftist praxis to deal with society's fascists, patsocs, jihadists, christian ultranationalists, proud boys, etc.?
You know what happened? China became a threat to become the #1 economic power. That threatens American hegemony. America won't stand for that. It's not about anything else. What is the best path forward? Gonna have to outnumber them. How? That's a helluva question, isn't it? The praxis is to build locally. Not going to get there through federal elections until there's an underlying structure in place. This is very hard work, but it's also the easiest part.
Is it genocide? i have no fucking clue... Is it horrible? likely, they're internment camps anyway you look at em...
There ya go.
more than anything i feel like the two options are either american-backed "its a genocide" or China-backed "we're doing good things." there's no nuance in what is being done thats truly wrong and what is the resolution of an "antagonistic contradiction" (in maoist terms). there's gotta be something we can learn from these internment camps without having to praise them or label them as genocidal, especially when our opinion on it is purely of political interest by the two largest empires in the world.
I don't find any difficulty in saying it's not a genocide and China isn't doing good things in this regard. The camps aren't the dialectic, they're a horrible thing China is doing. Dialectics isn't considering everything a contradiction, it's finding where the internal contradictions are. Holding people against their will is objectively bad. What two different governments have to say about it is external.
TL;DR: i think too much and it can make me sad and confused but weed sometimes helps but sometimes doesnt
I hear ya. The world's a fucked up place. But think about this: we paved about as much as we could pave, and then a bunch of us figured something cool to do with it. If we didn't pave paradise, there wouldn't be skateboarding.
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i really appreciate you and your reply, truly. it brings some clarity, including that i need to take a break from bumming myself out.
skated flatground on Tuesday and didn’t land anything, not even a shuvit. still felt amazing to be back on the board after an exhausting year. we are very lucky.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elite".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
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frankfurt school touches on this- simulation as a product of capital which effectively obfuscates all material analysis
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
It seems you think left and right just means Democrat and Republican. One of the left's biggest criticisms of the Democratic party has been it's reliance on identity politics. In turn one of the moderates biggest criticisms of the left is that it's class reductionist. They used that very criticism on Sanders, who's at best a moderate leftist, despite him being endorsed by the person that introduced the concept of intersectionality to academia. But to be straight up about it, "no war but the class war" is not a winning message because the class war has color lines and gender lines. That's just the way it is, and trust me, you'll lose your best allies if you overlook that. The Democratic party's use of identity politics is just a cooptation of intersectionality. Intersectionality includes class analysis, it comes from it, is an extension of it. It is rooted in material analysis. There is a vast difference between it and identity politics which is why the l eft criticizes identity politics heavily. And rightly so because it's empty rhetoric and is often used to defeat leftist candidates.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly here. I couldn’t care less about republicans & democrats. I’m not from the US and my interest in marxism is universal and beyond national politics.
Second, if you take Marx paradigm "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" there is no need for identity politics. This already means the end of discrimination based on gender, race and whatnot. This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality. but this is not a means to an end. This is a symptom of capitalism.
Identity politics is an idealistic dead end. In the end it could also just mean that we just have a super diverse team of upper management.
@wane Brady exactly
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly here. I couldn’t care less about republicans & democrats. I’m not from the US and my interest in marxism is universal and beyond national politics.
Second, if you take Marx paradigm "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" there is no need for identity politics. This already means the end of discrimination based on gender, race and whatnot. This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality. but this is not a means to an end. This is a symptom of capitalism.
Identity politics is an idealistic dead end. In the end it could also just mean that we just have a super diverse team of upper management.
@wane Brady exactly
You didn't understand a single thing I wrote. I made an explicit distinction between the material analysis of class distinctions within race and gender and identity politics, because they are different things. When you write this:
This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality.
that is in essence what intersectionality is. How do you know it now occurs implicitly without a material analysis? You can say "to each according" all you'd like, but that's not an analysis. You have to know whether or not you're actually doing it instead of just saying it If you equate that with simple identity politics...that's about as far from a Marxist understanding of the situation as you can get.
I don't know what left you are talking about that is moving towards identity politics given that I'm not sure whether or not you understand any of the terms under discussion. Who is the left? The left of what country? What do you mean by identity politics?
What I can tell you for certain is that we will have no chance at establishing class solidarity based on class alone. There are trust issues, and the reasons are obvious from a Marxist perspective.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly here. I couldn’t care less about republicans & democrats. I’m not from the US and my interest in marxism is universal and beyond national politics.
Second, if you take Marx paradigm "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" there is no need for identity politics. This already means the end of discrimination based on gender, race and whatnot. This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality. but this is not a means to an end. This is a symptom of capitalism.
Identity politics is an idealistic dead end. In the end it could also just mean that we just have a super diverse team of upper management.
@wane Brady exactly
You didn't understand a single thing I wrote. I made an explicit distinction between the material analysis of class distinctions within race and gender and identity politics, because they are different things. When you write this:
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This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality.
I don't know what left you are talking about that is moving towards identity politics given that I'm not sure whether or not you understand any of the terms under discussion. Who is the left? The left of what country? What do you mean by identity politics?
What I can tell you for certain is that we will have no chance at establishing class solidarity based on class alone. There are trust issues, and the reasons are obvious from a Marxist perspective.
Dude, chill! No need to be aggressive. You are the one coming with this „you are confusing this with republicans vs democrats“ stuff.
I don’t think intersectionalism is the way. But, I’m too tired of inner-left discussions about the right way. If you manage to get people understand the foundation of capitalism and help them organize - more power to you.
But I’m not interested in a discussion that is lead the way you are leading it.
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly here. I couldn’t care less about republicans & democrats. I’m not from the US and my interest in marxism is universal and beyond national politics.
Second, if you take Marx paradigm "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" there is no need for identity politics. This already means the end of discrimination based on gender, race and whatnot. This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality. but this is not a means to an end. This is a symptom of capitalism.
Identity politics is an idealistic dead end. In the end it could also just mean that we just have a super diverse team of upper management.
@wane Brady exactly
You didn't understand a single thing I wrote. I made an explicit distinction between the material analysis of class distinctions within race and gender and identity politics, because they are different things. When you write this:
Expand Quote
This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality.
I don't know what left you are talking about that is moving towards identity politics given that I'm not sure whether or not you understand any of the terms under discussion. Who is the left? The left of what country? What do you mean by identity politics?
What I can tell you for certain is that we will have no chance at establishing class solidarity based on class alone. There are trust issues, and the reasons are obvious from a Marxist perspective.
Dude, chill out. No need to be aggressive. You are the one coming with this „you are confusing this with republicans vs democrats“ stuff.
I don’t think intersectionalism is the way. But, I’m too tired of inner-left discussions about the right way. If you manage to get people understand the foundation of capitalism and help them organize - more power to you.
But I’m not interested in a discussion that is lead the way you are leading it.
In what way was that aggressive? And how is it that I'm leading a discussion? I didn't start this thread. You can be as not interested as you'd like. I happen to feel the need to point out the differences between what are moderate positions that get characterized as leftist and actual leftist positions. Think about this, though: you wrote that you are "tired of inner-left discussions about the right way" (whatever that means). You are saying this is not the right way and you're tired of it in a leftist discussion.
Have whatever discussion you want to have. Be as uninterested in ones you don't want to have as you want. Thanks for letting me know
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Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:
The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.
So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?
I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.
(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)
This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...
He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.
ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.
Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.
And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".
You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.
So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.
Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).
I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.
With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.
Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.
Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly here. I couldn’t care less about republicans & democrats. I’m not from the US and my interest in marxism is universal and beyond national politics.
Second, if you take Marx paradigm "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" there is no need for identity politics. This already means the end of discrimination based on gender, race and whatnot. This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality. but this is not a means to an end. This is a symptom of capitalism.
Identity politics is an idealistic dead end. In the end it could also just mean that we just have a super diverse team of upper management.
@wane Brady exactly
You didn't understand a single thing I wrote. I made an explicit distinction between the material analysis of class distinctions within race and gender and identity politics, because they are different things. When you write this:
Expand Quote
This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality.
I don't know what left you are talking about that is moving towards identity politics given that I'm not sure whether or not you understand any of the terms under discussion. Who is the left? The left of what country? What do you mean by identity politics?
What I can tell you for certain is that we will have no chance at establishing class solidarity based on class alone. There are trust issues, and the reasons are obvious from a Marxist perspective.
Dude, chill out. No need to be aggressive. You are the one coming with this „you are confusing this with republicans vs democrats“ stuff.
I don’t think intersectionalism is the way. But, I’m too tired of inner-left discussions about the right way. If you manage to get people understand the foundation of capitalism and help them organize - more power to you.
But I’m not interested in a discussion that is lead the way you are leading it.
Have whatever discussion you want to have. Be as uninterested in ones you don't want to have as you want. Thanks for letting me know
LOL whatever.
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As Hegel said to Marx
LOL whatever.
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If you don't like something just call it communism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B1g7mjT1PA
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Those mega dork PatSocs/NazBols at the Center for Political Innovation had their big cosplay opening ceremony then called it quits like 3 weeks later, and somehow think they "contributed a great deal to the development of American Socialism"
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FattWKuWAAUCmDT?format=png&name=900x900)
Get fucked
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(https://c.tenor.com/qAFZ_6WxiJ4AAAAC/shame-jerry-seinfeld.gif)
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Probably has to do with this:
https://medium.com/@cpimembersspeakout/caleb-maupins-former-comrades-speak-out-his-abuses-must-stop-4167bc1c2c
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Probably has to do with this:
https://medium.com/@cpimembersspeakout/caleb-maupins-former-comrades-speak-out-his-abuses-must-stop-4167bc1c2c
That's not shocking. My guess is that in six months or so Maupin will be a right wing conspiracy theorist trying to convince impressionable bible study girls to spank him twice a week until he finally forms his cult and they all move into a compound. Between now and then he'll make several appearances on The Jimmy Door Show to "tell my side of the story."
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Maupin always gave off fed vibes, but it turns out he's just a creepy little freak instead.
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Man that's some true manipulator shit. I hope someone kicks his teeth in.
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What we need most right now is no less than 100% compliance from ze global population. It is ze only way.
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(https://y.yarn.co/b4e9e2a1-85a1-4a86-ac9c-622cb26fa381_text.gif)
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My first thought was to post this in the "things that make you laugh" thread, but the more I thought about it, I thought this would be a better place for it.
https://www.cnn.com/markets/fear-and-greed?utm_source=business_ribbon (https://www.cnn.com/markets/fear-and-greed?utm_source=business_ribbon)
This seems like a piece from the Onion or maybe The Daily Show... I can't believe this is a real thing.
Really speaks to how profoundly fucked up this whole deal is. Lord have mercy.
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This is how many people view the economy. Not as the management of resources, but as a series of crooked lines tied to investment behavior. I really like the junk bond performance tracker...just about says it all.
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Watching MAGAcommunism tools fail to convince trump fans on truth social is fun
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Watching MAGAcommunism tools fail to convince trump fans on truth social is fun
Bro i thought being anti pc and throwing gay people and minorities under the bus would be enough to win over people whose brains have been melted by a lifetime of anti communist propaganda???
Hinkle can eat shit
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(https://y.yarn.co/b4e9e2a1-85a1-4a86-ac9c-622cb26fa381_text.gif)
the god damn Germans got nothing to do with it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyWVPHoFGJA
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https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/xo1amq/patriot_front_called_911_when_their_cars_got/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/xo1amq/patriot_front_called_911_when_their_cars_got/)
fucking patriot front losers. old video but worth watching
that's what these fuckers do, go rile shit up and play the victim.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/xo1amq/patriot_front_called_911_when_their_cars_got/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/xo1amq/patriot_front_called_911_when_their_cars_got/)
fucking patriot front losers. old video but worth watching
that's what these fuckers do, go rile shit up and play the victim.
The ole Andy ngo model
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they got washed when they tried to march in philly.. fuck em
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they got washed when they tried to march in philly.. fuck em
bouls came out of a box truck when it was dark out and barely even marched down a busy street....then got sent right back to that box truck
them bouls SCARED
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nut ass bouls pussy fr
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Once again I come across something in the news that is profoundly sad.
The title of the video is "Watch two sisters get the 'surprise of a lifetime' at this drive-thru food pantry."
Take a watch and see what the "surprise of a lifetime is." If you do not get sad or outraged, you are likely dead inside.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2022/10/16/drive-thru-pantry-lithonia-georgia-inflation-romero-nr-contd-vpx.cnn (https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2022/10/16/drive-thru-pantry-lithonia-georgia-inflation-romero-nr-contd-vpx.cnn)
WTF America. What. The. Fuck.
(https://i.imgur.com/NXi6Jkw.jpg)