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Simon, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
This. Simon's "faith is factually provable" premise is hardly biblical.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 8:23-24
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Dude doesn't get science or Christianity. He can't even exegete properly, to the point where he misinterprets John 3:16, considered a crux of the gospel, as being a message about rejecting selfishness and humbling yourself before god.
Simon, you were wonderful as a clown on a surfboard. That was just as insane as this thread, but at least you knew what you were doing.
These are great verses that you quoted. Notwithstanding, it is important to take the entirety of Scripture in to account when discussing matters such as faith's relation to fact. The Apostle Paul was adamant about teaching the whole Bible "for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God." Acts 20:27 And I think it is important to follow his lead when we are discussing the topic of faith
Therefore, in balance of the important faith leap verses you cited (verses I would by no means argue against when brought into balanced consideration) it must be taken into account that the Bible does not teach that faith is a blind leap that is to be made apart from facts and evidences.
Examples:
The Apostle Paul referenced Creation as evidence for faith in God in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
Even the Psalmist, King David, acknowledged the faith supporting aspects of creation and the cosmos: "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork." Psalm 19:1
So, personal faith is to be based on the facts of God's creation.
Moreover, the whole point of Luke's Gospel (and his authorship of the book of Acts) was to provide factual evidences in support of the faith:
"Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed." Luke 1:1-4
So, according to the full teaching the Bible, personal faith is meant to be founded on historical facts and accounts (which it is, btw).
Even the famous doubting Apostle Thomas wanted to see evidence before he would believe, and Jesus showed him the evidence with a subsequent response of faith from Thomas:
(John 20:24-29)
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
In sum, Thomas wanted to see the evidence before faith, Jesus gave him the evidence (empirical verification of His crucifixion wounds), and he believed.
While here in this context Jesus does commend those who would later come to faith without demanding evidence, this does not negate the existence (or the Bible's teaching) of faith supporting evidence.
In fact, in the context just prior to John 3:16 (the verse you rightly mentioned I was trying to represent) Jesus, speaking to Nicodemus, emphasizes the importance of having faith/belief in His teachings on the natural world in harmonious accordance with His teachings on salvation:
"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" John 3:12
Although I think your analysis of the Bible is off, I would not deny the intended truths expressed in the previous verses that you cited , but a rule in Bible study is that when isolated verses are taken out of context, this often results in a pretext. In other words, when gleaning truths from Scripture, it is important to take the entire counsel of the Bible into consideration, or else one could wind up with a limited or even errant understanding of what it is teaching as a whole.
Also, here is a bit of a helpful commentary on Hebrews 11:1 "That verse reads, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.' While the writer to the Hebrews was trying to give one aspect of what faith means, this verse is no more an exhaustive definition of faith than the statement 'God is a consuming fire'—which is found in the following chapter—defines all aspects of who God is." (1) In similar stride, the other verses you cited need to be considered in light of the may verses that also support faith based on facts.
In conclusion, I would say that the understanding that you presented is limited, and that the Bible teaches that faith and fact go hand in hand.
Footnotes:
1.
http://apologetics-notes.comereason.org/2013/04/what-is-faith-proper-understanding.html
Topic: Evidence for God (Read 51587 times)