Author Topic: American Independence Day  (Read 1702 times)

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sweets

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American Independence Day
« on: July 04, 2007, 10:46:15 AM »
Big ups to MLK, Jr., Ghandi, "Che", and the list goes on....



Also, remember there are millions of oppressed people all over the world. Enjoy your BBQ and your beer but remember "freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes". Peace out friends. Have a good day.

-SW33TS
"instead of typing out some dumb reply to this post, go make some art, smell your own body, mate with your own hand, take a picture of your penis when it is in half-boner-mode and post it on slap." Tony

hargo

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2007, 10:48:02 AM »
God Bless America
“I just hate anything that can be defined as more spectacle than sport,” he said. “Just like any other athlete, it takes a certain skill to do our sport.”- shawn white

yeah dude!

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2007, 12:14:06 PM »
Let freedom ring

max power

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2007, 12:15:09 PM »
Let freedom ring
please let this be a reference to those machine head t-shirts, it thought that was the most hilarious thing i had ever seen.

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2007, 01:01:55 PM »
 Put Away Your Flags

By Howard Zinn

On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early.

When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."

When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."

On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to
war.

We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.

As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."

We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.

Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.

How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?

One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.

We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.

Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best-
selling "A People's History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project in 2006.

uruguay

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2007, 01:05:05 PM »
thanks shawn, good post.

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2007, 01:06:53 PM »
thanks shawn, good post.

My friend posted it on Myspace and I thought it was perfect.

Wooderson

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2007, 01:09:21 PM »
love is a battlefield
You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N.

hargo

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 01:18:17 PM »
i was being sarcastic with my last post. i have read alot of zinn, chomsky, and other dissenters. the way i feel about nationalism and patriotism is more of a belief that we belong to the world we live in, but i dont feel that loving your country has to necessarily be predicated on the evil that it has perpetrated or the corrupt rulers that are in power. there is a difference between blind nationalism and a feeling of belonging, gratitude and hope that one can have for the country they live in, and celebrating its accomplishments without neglecting its failures makes more sense than just hating and denouncing everything about it. although i  think zinn is awesome he really doesnt offer any solutions, just criticism.
“I just hate anything that can be defined as more spectacle than sport,” he said. “Just like any other athlete, it takes a certain skill to do our sport.”- shawn white

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2007, 01:20:41 PM »
i was being sarcastic with my last post. i have read alot of zinn, chomsky, and other dissenters. the way i feel about nationalism and patriotism is more of a belief that we belong to the world we live in, but i dont feel that loving your country has to necessarily be predicated on the evil that it has perpetrated or the corrupt rulers that are in power. there is a difference between blind nationalism and a feeling of belonging, gratitude and hope that one can have for the country they live in, and celebrating its accomplishments without neglecting its failures makes more sense than just hating and denouncing everything about it. although i  think zinn is awesome he really doesnt offer any solutions, just criticism.

The only solution is the over throw of our corporate right wing neo conservative country and start over with real freedom for all. Everyone knows this yet know one is trying to do it.

andrew4lyfe

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2007, 01:30:41 PM »
americaa... fuck yeah....

grimcity

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2007, 01:42:22 PM »

sebastian toombs

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2007, 01:55:20 PM »
id like to take a moment to congratulate america on the diversity of its breakfast cereal selection.

hargo

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2007, 02:16:34 PM »
they live is one of the best movies ever!

Quote
The only solution is the over throw of our corporate right wing neo conservative country and start over with real freedom for all. Everyone knows this yet know one is trying to do it.

only problem with that is, the ones supplying the weapons will be the corporate right wing. also, i wonder who will be leading the country after that happens? the problem with government is simple, if you think you should be leading other people, especially an entire country, then youre an asshole, its a circular problem.
“I just hate anything that can be defined as more spectacle than sport,” he said. “Just like any other athlete, it takes a certain skill to do our sport.”- shawn white

k-nutz

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2007, 02:47:06 PM »
The only solution is the over throw of our corporate right wing neo conservative country and start over with real freedom for all. Everyone knows this yet know one is trying to do it.


what a dirty hippy thing to say.

cold budweisers

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2007, 03:39:16 PM »
america is the worst place in the entire world, i want to fucking die

lophatrophazoa

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2007, 05:42:29 PM »
lol canada day wuz 3 days ago
"Front row tickets to a bomb ass play"
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keeper of the lair

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2007, 06:01:28 PM »


"One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki."


Please tell me you don't support the asshole that wrote this.

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2007, 06:17:27 PM »
Expand Quote


"One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

[close]

Please tell me you don't support the asshole that wrote this.

So you think the ends justify the means? Most of the people killed in Pearl Harbor (and don't get me wrong it was a massacre and wrong, but I don't think nuking people is any better and in fact worse) where military where as most of the people killed in Japan where innocent civilians.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 06:19:16 PM by veganshawn »

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2007, 06:18:24 PM »
they live is one of the best movies ever!

Quote
Expand Quote
The only solution is the over throw of our corporate right wing neo conservative country and start over with real freedom for all. Everyone knows this yet know one is trying to do it.
[close]

only problem with that is, the ones supplying the weapons will be the corporate right wing. also, i wonder who will be leading the country after that happens? the problem with government is simple, if you think you should be leading other people, especially an entire country, then youre an asshole, its a circular problem.

The people need to lead the people, we can choose those we want to make policy but bottom line the people have say above all.

keeper of the lair

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2007, 06:26:30 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote


"One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

[close]

Please tell me you don't support the asshole that wrote this.
[close]

So you think the ends justify the means? Most of the people killed in Pearl Harbor (and don't get me wrong it was a massacre and wrong, but I don't think nuking people is any better and in fact worse) where military where as most of the people killed in Japan where innocent civilians.

There would be so many more civilians killed than that, had we not done something.

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2007, 06:28:20 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote


"One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

[close]

Please tell me you don't support the asshole that wrote this.
[close]

So you think the ends justify the means? Most of the people killed in Pearl Harbor (and don't get me wrong it was a massacre and wrong, but I don't think nuking people is any better and in fact worse) where military where as most of the people killed in Japan where innocent civilians.
[close]

There would be so many more civilians killed than that, had we not done something.

Who knows, but I am sorry there is never a valid reason for dropping a nuke on a country.

hargo

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2007, 06:43:03 PM »
Quote
Please tell me you don't support the asshole that wrote this.

zinn raises many valid points.

Quote
The people need to lead the people, we can choose those we want to make policy but bottom line the people have say above all.

isnt this the system we already have? my point is, you are only going to get whatever those in power allow you to have.
the problem with your statement is this, first you say "the people" then you say "we". unfortunately there is no "the people" or "we". everyone disagrees how government should work, that is why we will never have a system that works or is not corrupt. once someone has ultimate power, they use arbitrarily, that is one of the purposes of the constitution and the separation of powers. the only thing i fear more than the decisions our government is making is the decisions so called revolutionaries would make. when it comes down to it, the masses want to be led, and there are always self serving assholes who are willing to accommodate them .
“I just hate anything that can be defined as more spectacle than sport,” he said. “Just like any other athlete, it takes a certain skill to do our sport.”- shawn white

fuckingvegan

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2007, 07:35:00 PM »
Quote
Expand Quote
Please tell me you don't support the asshole that wrote this.
[close]

zinn raises many valid points.

Quote
Expand Quote
The people need to lead the people, we can choose those we want to make policy but bottom line the people have say above all.
[close]

isnt this the system we already have? my point is, you are only going to get whatever those in power allow you to have.
the problem with your statement is this, first you say "the people" then you say "we". unfortunately there is no "the people" or "we". everyone disagrees how government should work, that is why we will never have a system that works or is not corrupt. once someone has ultimate power, they use arbitrarily, that is one of the purposes of the constitution and the separation of powers. the only thing i fear more than the decisions our government is making is the decisions so called revolutionaries would make. when it comes down to it, the masses want to be led, and there are always self serving assholes who are willing to accommodate them .

No that isn't our current government if it was Al Gore would be in office, remember more people voted for him, who are the electoral college? And why do they count more then the hundreds of thousands that voted for Gore?
I don't know if my way could work or not, but the current system sure is busted so I think it would be worth a try.

actionjackson

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2007, 08:27:43 PM »
right on for the darkness

hargo

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2007, 10:32:21 PM »
if there were such a thing as a true democracy, do you really think every citizen would vote on every issue? o
“I just hate anything that can be defined as more spectacle than sport,” he said. “Just like any other athlete, it takes a certain skill to do our sport.”- shawn white

sweets

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2007, 10:49:00 AM »
Expand Quote
Big ups to MLK, Jr., Ghandi, "Che", and the list goes on....



Also, remember there are millions of oppressed people all over the world. Enjoy your BBQ and your beer but remember "freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes". Peace out friends. Have a good day.

-SW33TS
[close]

You gave "big ups " to Che Guevara, you are obviously a fucking moron with no sense of reality beyond the local Hot Topic. BIG UPS to a guy who executed hundreds of people with no hearing, trial, evidence or inherent fairness. You also thanked this dog Marxist revolutionary in the same breath as heaping praise on the USA, a country where people cannot afford medical care because of the extreme neoclassical, free-market ideology.

In conclusion, you=fucking cretin


Where was the heaping of praise on the USA? I believe I was giving praise to revolutionaries. People who fought for freedom, in the way they believed to be right. If that makes me a cretin in your eyes, I can live with it.

BTW, nice post veganshawn.
"instead of typing out some dumb reply to this post, go make some art, smell your own body, mate with your own hand, take a picture of your penis when it is in half-boner-mode and post it on slap." Tony

MexicanSpaniard

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2007, 11:01:17 AM »
I have several combat veterans in my family and I would never disrespect them for what they did.

bornindabay

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2007, 03:02:49 PM »
God fuckiing bless America!!!!!!

Yeeeeeeee-Haaaaaawww!

H8R

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Re: American Independence Day
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2007, 03:16:10 PM »


i'm here to chew bubble gum and kick ass......and i'm all out of bubble gum.