israel and palestine

[slaab900turbo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/

https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/

Totally non-violent.  Draw your own conclusions, folks.

Stop equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. Anyone, Jewish or not that can defend Israel at this point is delusional.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-01/four-student-journalists-attacked-by-counterprotesters-at-ucla

We can all dig up news stories that support our agenda.

[cucktard]

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

[231st Street]

Expand Quote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/

https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/

Totally non-violent.  Draw your own conclusions, folks.

[close]

Stop equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. Anyone, Jewish or not that can defend Israel at this point is delusional.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-01/four-student-journalists-attacked-by-counterprotesters-at-ucla

We can all dig up news stories that support our agenda.

That is awful. Do you see how I can acknowledge that?  I honestly hadn't seen that story-- I live in NYC and dont regularly look at the LA Times.  We need deescalation on "both sides".  That is what I'm trying to get at.

[231st Street]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

[close]

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea?  Not that I'm equating the levels of violence.  Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence?  Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S.  or Israeli policy to end the war?  Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?

Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane, coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

[close]

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

[close]

Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea?  Not that I'm equating the levels of violence.  Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence?  Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S.  or Israeli policy to end the war?  Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?

Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.

I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.

The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.

To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.

No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd. 

[layzieyez]

I’m disgusted by people who have made women’s rights or children’s lives and well being their identity while completely turning their back on all the innocent women and children that died in the name of a desperate land grab and natural resources to exploit. There’s still hordes of starving kids and women you can start caring about, but I guess they don’t matter if they aren’t the right color or worship a different religion.

[slaab900turbo]

I’m disgusted by people who have made women’s rights or children’s lives and well being their identity while completely turning their back on all the innocent women and children that died in the name of a desperate land grab and natural resources to exploit. There’s still hordes of starving kids and women you can start caring about, but I guess they don’t matter if they aren’t the right color or worship a different religion.

Nailed it.

[layzieyez]

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4636945-antisemitism-bill-campus-protests/amp/

Oh look, they’re quickly moving to remove your ability to criticize them and turn the phrase “From the river to the sea” into something antisemitic. Our constitutionally protected free speech and assemble to protest is worthless when it comes to a foreign country.

I sure wish they moved that fast on all the pertinent issues causing unneeded suffering in our country.

[Knox Harrington]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

[close]

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

[close]

Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea?  Not that I'm equating the levels of violence.  Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence?  Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S.  or Israeli policy to end the war?  Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?

Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.

[close]

I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.

The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.

To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.

No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.

Curious about why you’re saying people in Gaza can’t trade or procure food or other goods (pre 10/7).

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

[close]

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

[close]

Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea?  Not that I'm equating the levels of violence.  Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence?  Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S.  or Israeli policy to end the war?  Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?

Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.

[close]

I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.

The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.

To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.

No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.

[close]

Curious about why you’re saying people in Gaza can’t trade or procure food or other goods (pre 10/7).

This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.

I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.

[Knox Harrington]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

[close]

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

[close]

Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea?  Not that I'm equating the levels of violence.  Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence?  Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S.  or Israeli policy to end the war?  Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?

Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.

[close]

I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.

The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.

To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.

No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.

[close]

Curious about why you’re saying people in Gaza can’t trade or procure food or other goods (pre 10/7).

[close]

This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.

I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.

Wasn't UNRWA mostly in control of healthcare? It's hard to argue against the other points you made. Everything was heavily surveiled.

I think the big issue here is that Hamas acts ideologically, not pragmatically. They put their resources into military infrastructure instead of building GDP. The military infrastructure helps them carry out their ideology, but does nothing in terms of helping their people.

Regarding surveillance, it could be said that Israel failed in its goal (protecting Israel) because Hamas was still able to build tunnel infrastructure and import/create however many weapons. And when they've had relative peace, they've done things that could help sustain it like giving workers' permits.

So the issue is that for Gaza to have a truly free state, Hamas couldn't actually be in power bc the West would assume that they'd continue attacks on Israel as the leaders of Hamas state publicly. And they haven't ceded it yet.

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic?  Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?

[close]

You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property?  No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech).  When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech.  I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol.  Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.

[close]

Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.

[close]

Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea?  Not that I'm equating the levels of violence.  Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence?  Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S.  or Israeli policy to end the war?  Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?

Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.

[close]

I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.

The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.

To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.

No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.

[close]

Curious about why you’re saying people in Gaza can’t trade or procure food or other goods (pre 10/7).

[close]

This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.

I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.

[close]

Wasn't UNRWA mostly in control of healthcare? It's hard to argue against the other points you made. Everything was heavily surveiled.

I think the big issue here is that Hamas acts ideologically, not pragmatically. They put their resources into military infrastructure instead of building GDP. The military infrastructure helps them carry out their ideology, but does nothing in terms of helping their people.

Regarding surveillance, it could be said that Israel failed in its goal (protecting Israel) because Hamas was still able to build tunnel infrastructure and import/create however many weapons. And when they've had relative peace, they've done things that could help sustain it like giving workers' permits.

So the issue is that for Gaza to have a truly free state, Hamas couldn't actually be in power bc the West would assume that they'd continue attacks on Israel as the leaders of Hamas state publicly. And they haven't ceded it yet.

UNRWA was heavily relied on, technically healthcare was/is administered by Gaza Health Ministry, but my readings of on the ground accounts pointed to Israeli control of medicine and medical specialists in particular, essentially anything that would require leaving Gaza or importing items. 

You’ll find no argument from me that Hamas did not act in the interest of Palestinians and has been a detriment for Palestine as a whole. Where we might disagree is what led to the election of Hamas and eventually to 10/7. I can’t see the past 40 years of Palestinian history as anything but a pressure cooker waiting to blow. A subjugated people will eventually lash out in one form or another, and what may appear as a period of “peace” for the oppressor has been anything but for the oppressed.

[botefdunn]