Slap MessageBoards
General Discussion => WHATEVER => Topic started by: Sarmiento Subs on March 27, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
-
i believe in God but not every single thing in the Bible like most Christians do because I understand the errors and idiocy of humans and the mistakes they make passing down oral or written works as well as what they lose in translations as well as what people do to justify ideas and theories for their own selves
what about you? i like a good discussion about serious topics
-
my man
(http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Eelsegal/C_Transp/martin-luther.jpg)
-
my man.
(http://www.witcheshaven.com/images/pentagram_satan.gif)
-
please state a reason or say something about your religion
-
i believe in God but not every single thing in the Bible like most Christians do because I understand the errors and idiocy of humans and the mistakes they make passing down oral or written works as well as what they lose in translations as well as what people do to justify ideas and theories for their own selves
what about you? i like a good discussion about serious topics
So what is your religion?
And why?
You didn't state really state it.
I don't have a religion, because I think it's all a big load of horse shit.
-
please state a reason or say something about your religion
hail satan.
-
my man
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs023.snc1/2563_145006570180_592755180_6382710_7147283_n.jpg)
-
I'm confused when it comes to religion. It sounds weird to say that life was randomly created. At the same time, it sounds ignorant to say that someone or something created everything. If there is a higher being, I guess I'll find out when I die.
I see no reason to believe in something that tells me what to do. I rather live the way I want to. Is there a single person on this board who hasn't "committed adultery"?
Also, I feel like religion was created for people. Religion scares people from murdering and doing horrible deeds because they think they will go to "Hell". So, people try to lead a good life to get into "Heaven" or achieve salvation.
Other than that, I feel like religion has been the biggest cause for violence and ignorance.
-
Expand Quote
please state a reason or say something about your religion
hail satan.
good enough ha
Expand Quote
i believe in God but not every single thing in the Bible like most Christians do because I understand the errors and idiocy of humans and the mistakes they make passing down oral or written works as well as what they lose in translations as well as what people do to justify ideas and theories for their own selves
what about you? i like a good discussion about serious topics
So what is your religion?
And why?
You didn't state really state it.
I don't have a religion, because I think it's all a big load of horse shit.
i didnt really state it because i dont think it has an official term, you just got filter out the bs from the truths you find as you live out your life and come to the best conclusions you can
why - because it seems the most logical thing to do, i would abandon all conclusions but i feel it helps you mentally to try to tackle things same thing applies to the beginning of the universe and everything else
-
Filter out the BS from where?
-
I'm confused when it comes to religion. It sounds weird to say that life was randomly created. At the same time, it sounds ignorant to say that someone or something created everything. If there is a higher being, I guess I'll find out when I die.
I see no reason to believe in something that tells me what to do. I rather live the way I want to. Is there a single person on this board who hasn't "committed adultery"?
Also, I feel like religion was created for people. Religion scares people from murdering and doing horrible deeds because they think they will go to "Hell". So, people try to lead a good life to get into "Heaven" or achieve salvation.
Other than that, I feel like religion has been the biggest cause for violence and ignorance.
this is a great post, i find that i believe in God a lot because i prefer to live in a universe that was sparked by a purpose rather than by accident, idk if that makes sense
like i said i dont believe in something just because it was told or written, i dont believe the way my parents do for instance about people and the universe, i prefer science because it is based on factual evidence (and scientific theories evolve* based on new findings, instead of being stubborn) and logic, and i dont see how the existence of God should have any interference at all with evolution, people want to view things to literally and think that one thing has to contradict another when in reality they should try to figure out how everything could mesh together
some people are just stubborn in that way though, i would rather view God as making the spark that turned into the giant inferno that is our universe today, no matter how far back it goes, even if it means he created the giant blobs they talked about with m theory that would smack into each other creating big bangs, even if you just view God, not as a human with genie powers, but as the true purpose for everything that unfolds from an existing infinite universe, then so be it
-
at this point in my life i usually choose not to share the problems i see in religions with people who subscribe to them and here is why. there are two possible outcomes of this kind of conversation, i'm right or you're right. and let's assume that either of us "being right" not only means that what you believe is true but also that you have compelling, convincing reasons to back that up with.
if you're rigth then there wouldn't be any harm to sharing my views. i burn for all enternity and you get to chill at the worlds illest toga party.
however if i'm right then there's a moral problem from my standpoint. i believe that people who have true faith get salvation whether they are right or wrong. the whole game of religion is basically to answer the impossible question of "what happens after we die" and then making people feel good about the answer. being of your faith would give you a lot of comfort on your death bed and an easy passing that i'll never be able to have. so assuming that i'm right, what would i stand to gain by convincing you besides taking away the comfort that your faith provides you?
i'd much rather that people of faith get to enjoy the sheild that their beliefs provides them than to take that away just to prove that i'm right about something. who really wants to be the asshole that runs around and tells every kid that he meets that santa doesn't exist?
-
i agree with you sleazy, and ive been around dying folk and the religious ones are always at more ease and peace about it for that very reason
however, as far as me personally, i dont use religion to justify the ends of my life, i like it to provide purpose to the beginning of the universe and therefore everything in it, and i dont believe that bad people should get salvation over good people who have a different standpoint on religion
-
it's all a big load of horse shit.
it's all a big load of horse shit.
it's all a big load of horse shit.
it's all a big load of horse shit.
it's all a big load of horse shit.
it's all a big load of horse shit.
-
I'm agnostic, it's not that I don't believe there could be a god, I just need some sort of scientific or tangible proof. And de-nouncing evolution just straight up bugs me.
-
i agree with you sleazy, and ive been around dying folk and the religious ones are always at more ease and peace about it for that very reason
however, as far as me personally, i dont use religion to justify the ends of my life, i like it to provide purpose to the beginning of the universe and therefore everything in it, and i dont believe that bad people should get salvation over good people who have a different standpoint on religion
well in the words of my baptist friend who's a local church leader
"you don't have a god, you're your own god..."
religion isn't an buffet where you can grab the things you want and leave the others behind. nothing wrong with the beliefs you're putting forward, but you may be posing on the relgious front just a bit.
-
Expand Quote
i agree with you sleazy, and ive been around dying folk and the religious ones are always at more ease and peace about it for that very reason
however, as far as me personally, i dont use religion to justify the ends of my life, i like it to provide purpose to the beginning of the universe and therefore everything in it, and i dont believe that bad people should get salvation over good people who have a different standpoint on religion
well in the words of my baptist friend who's a local church leader
"you don't have a god, you're your own god..."
religion isn't an buffet where you can grab the things you want and leave the others behind. nothing wrong with the beliefs you're putting forward, but you may be posing on the relgious front just a bit.
if you're your own god then you should be able to pick and choose, and im not picking and choosing things from all religions or anything, there are just many things in organized religions that are false, much less debatable, so why not skip out on them in the "buffet" you are speaking of, i like things from the scientific standpoint and there are things that coincide with those things for me so i guess i "pick" them or wtf ever
i dont see how i could be posing on any religion when i wasnt claiming any i am just confused by your entire post, if i was claiming Christianity 100% and then said I don't believe whatsoever in the universe and earth being created in 7 24 hour periods (most Christians seem to think that a day automatically means 24 hours since the universe revolves around them anyways) then maybe you could make that claim
-
Xenu or die.
-
(http://www.sne.org/conference/images/QuakerUSLogo_000.gif)
for real
EDIT. I don't practice really, but my parents do. From what I've seen, its more about community than it is God. You can be quaker and not believe in God/Jesus.
-
what all do they do for the community? im not hating im really just asking i dont know any quakers personally is all
-
what all do they do for the community? im not hating im really just asking i dont know any quakers personally is all
Its kinda cool. My parents roof was fucked up years ago. They were tight on cash and couldn't fix it, so some people from the 'meeting house' helped fix it up for nothing. Now whenever these people need helps my folks hook it up.
Also, there big hippies.
-
Expand Quote
what all do they do for the community? im not hating im really just asking i dont know any quakers personally is all
Its kinda cool. My parents roof was fucked up years ago. They were tight on cash and couldn't fix it, so some people from the 'meeting house' helped fix it up for nothing. Now whenever these people need helps my folks hook it up.
Also, there big hippies.
well sounds like you were right about it being a community thing, doesnt seem like a religion at all, seems more like a code of ethics or something
sounds like you got a good neighborhood if people are that nice that would never happen around here
-
George Carlin on religion..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
-
George Carlin on religion..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
/end thread
-
carlin pretty much sums it up. i love the whole "gods plan" angle.
-
religion is something that i have no interest in whatsoever. i have no desire to believe in anything, or to not believe in anything. if other people didnt bring it up, id probably never even think about religion, god, or anything like that.
-
^ yah, i agree.
i don't care if people believe in whatever though, as long as they're not dicks about it.
-
religion is something that i have no interest in whatsoever. i have no desire to believe in anything, or to not believe in anything. if other people didnt bring it up, id probably never even think about religion, god, or anything like that.
agreed
I just get super annoyed when people try to push theirs apon me..
Religion is a personal experience dont try to push your beliefs on me..
I always would get weirded out when friends would try and convince me to go to their churchs with them for 1 night
and when i'd ask give me a few reasons why. they couldnt do it. and even when they did, it would be extremely vague.
something along the lines of "you should you might learn something" or some bull shit
-
Speaking of religion.
Today in my world religion class some girl was going on about how we can only be this smart because god allowed us to be this smart, that's why animals are so dumb. She said we are smart because we can talk and she compared deaf people to animals........
-
agnostic. not saying there is a god or isn't, not enough proof for me to put belief into something.
-
jesus saves
-
jesus saves
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_m8Dd80JcG9s/R4zFB6mXVQI/AAAAAAAAAdU/kNtT9_tQe00/s400/buddy+Jesus.jpg)
-
I've got my name involved in 2 different religions and technically I'm Jewish and practice none. I was created by God and I'm going to Heaven.
-
at points i think there is something, but i can never be too sure for obvious reasons. i also can't decide which one appeals to me the most
this seems like a complete lie, and i might be fusing two different occasions together because i was really young at the time, but i used to live with my grandparents when i was younger and i would always go to church with my grandmother on sundays(i think). one day she decided to give me the option to not go. i decided to stay in since it meant nothing to me at the time and i had no clue what was going on, but the church ended up burning down that day. it was a very strange coincidence that i didn't understand for the longest time. granted i may have just put two and two together over time and just assume that it was the same incident
-
Do you think your grandma burned down the church? Maybe, you should ask her.
-
Do you think your grandma burned down the church? Maybe, you should ask her.
she was very religious her entire life up until she passed away. i understand the intended joke, but i never really mentioned it. knowing what i know now, i would have loved her to tell me that it was my fault and punishment for not going that day
-
i always find it funny, hypocritical, and quite ironic how absolutely judgmental many christians (especially those VERY set in their ways) are. their religion teaches them not to judge ("only god can judge me"), unfairly or otherwise, and yet they insist on telling non-believers that they are missing a part of their soul... that there is a void in their life... that you are WRONG and are damned for it... where's the justification there? this is one of the problems i have with religion, especially the big 2 that teach conversion strongly (christianity and islam).
i'm certainly a believer in "whatever works for you", as who am i to conjecture that my belief of why we are here and what happens afterwords is correct. i'm down for any religious type that at least understands this. most of you are too, saying "just don't force it on me".
the problem lies that their religion of choice teaches them TO force it on you. to convert you.
you need saving, after all! ::)
-
I thought christianity was all about iced-out "t" necklaces. JR Blastoff, back me up.
-
religion is something that i have no interest in whatsoever. i have no desire to believe in anything, or to not believe in anything. if other people didnt bring it up, id probably never even think about religion, god, or anything like that.
yeah, pretty much a waste of time.
-
I was born a catholict but I have recently converted to the Pastafarian faith
Why am I pastafari? I am half Italian so I find the belief in flying spaghetti monsters quite intriguing.
-
I was born a catholict but I have recently converted to the Pastafarian faith
Why am I pastafari? I am half Italian so I find the belief in flying spaghetti monsters quite intriguing.
i did my final speech for my college speech class on FSM and Pastafarianism and keeping religion out of schools. it blew minds
-
Expand Quote
Do you think your grandma burned down the church? Maybe, you should ask her.
I was actually not joking about it. I thought you were implying that she left you at home to burn down the church. I sound so fucking stupid. But, sorry to hear about you grandmother.
-
Sum Paganus. Sum successio deae.
-
Speaking of religion.
Today in my world religion class some girl was going on about how we can only be this smart because god allowed us to be this smart, that's why animals are so dumb. She said we are smart because we can talk and she compared deaf people to animals........
Hahah, that's a religous person for you.
I'm athiest, I think it makes the most sense to me. Evolution seems crazy until you actually learn about it and see how much more sense it makes than a giant invisible soul creating everything.
Also religion is the cause of most wars, World War II was Hitler's crazy right wing beliefs. All that fighting in the middle east has been over three religions. And just in general religion breeds ignorance and fanatics. Not saying all are but there isn't any blow-your-self-up-athiests.
i never really discuss it with people though, I dont like to push that on other people or vice versa.
-
I grew up in a good old fashioned fundamentalist Christian household where I decided to do shit my own way. I believed in some version of the Christian God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and all that stuff, but I still drank, smoked (and smoked up), got into fights and random mischief, but I never felt like a hypocrite because I never talked religion unless I was in the company of a pastor, which is really easy to do when you live in a small town with a church on every corner.
I'm an atheist now (sorry for posting in a religion thread!) and it was weird... it was so gradual that I never realized it, I mean, I didn't spend days doubting God, I just eventually realized that I simply didn't believe in any of it anymore. In college I initially majored in English with a focus on literature. It was really interesting to see where a number of the stories in the Bible came from... the most prominent (in literature) is probably the whole flood story. The Epic of Gilgamesh, written roughly 2,000 years before Genesis, has a flood story that's nearly identical all the way down to the olive branch (though they used different birds). That's not to say that the Bible is a book of plagiarism, but it was common practice in those days (and the days before) to take folk tales and retool them to fit the audience. The Gilgamesh flood story wasn't the first, either... but it was one of the best preserved.
I don't have any beef with religious people as long as they aren't flaming evangelical religionists attempting to challenge reality or form our culture in their image based on their limited, selective, and selectively literal interpretation of the Bible or Quran. I've known a few people that practice Judaism, including some Israeli drinking buddies, but I've never met anyone in that's tried to convert me, in real life or online.
My main beef is with people that use religion as a front to excuse prejudice or willful ignorance. Like I said most people I know are religious, and they're exceptional friends. We mutually accept where we each stand, so it's a non issue. At work it's kind've weird though... the only people who know who are atheists are other atheists/agnostics (and one friend at work who is Hindu). There aren't many of us, but we keep quiet about it because there are some overtly religious people at work and it's much easier to just diplomatically and subtly redirect any religious discussion they might try to include me in. I've heard enough to know that if they knew I was a non believer, I'd be seen as a practitioner of something evil.
Here in Louisiana, the door has been opened to allow for the study and discussion of "Intelligent Design" as an alternative to biological evolution. That kind of shit pisses me off to no end... to teach that it's a valid alternative is an insult to science, as well as an educational setback for students forced to learn that line of bullshit.
Gay marriage: It's lame how anti gay activists use emotional appeals to make sure gays don't have marriages recognized by whatever state they're in (California's probably the best example though). People say they want to "protect marriage," but how the fuck are you protecting marriage by preventing it? If you want to protect the "sanctity" of marriage, then see if you can get legislation passed that makes divorce illegal. Good luck with that. Fuck "civil unions" too... fuck that separate but equal nonsense. If you're against gay marriage, you might as well take the next logical leap and be for the outlawing of homosexuality. If they don't deserve equal rights and a protected pursuit towards happiness, might as well take all their rights away (like Florida where gays can't even adopt).
The abortion thing too... I'm pro choice, but I'm sick of hearing anti abortionists draping themselves in religion when fighting against it. There are a few anti abortion groups that are also atheist in nature, and they might offer the anti choice crowd some real debate material other than "God hates abortion!" I'm not swayed by the atheist-anti-abortion argument, but I can appreciate it as a real and debatable argument.
I'm also bummed at religionists that support laws and legislation that test the limits (or cross) the seperation of church and state. The secular nature of our laws protects religion, the worst thing the religious could do is have government-endorsed religion. Shit like that might make somebody go Pilgrim.
/sorry for the rant, it's been wet and cold all day
-
I am Christian but i believe a lot of christian people his christianity a bad name. They get really fanatical and make try to push their beliefs on others.. people say their christians when their are really not which also gives christianity a bad name..all Christianity is asking to God to lead your life and live life like him..im not saying its possible because we are all humans and we all sin and god knows this..Christianity isn't a religion, its a relationship that one has with God..i have seen God work in many ways in my life so i will always try to live like him.
I'm agnostic, it's not that I don't believe there could be a god, I just need some sort of scientific or tangible proof. And de-nouncing evolution just straight up bugs me.
Their are things in life that cannot be scientifically proven and yeah i know it seems very odd if there is no proof, but there is proof..the bible has never been wrong..before you try to call me out remember to get your facts strait..sorry for ranting but this is just something i feel strongly about
-
But how do we know that Christianity is the correct religion? What if Jesus really was some crazy guy like the jews believed? What if the Muslims are right? How will we know?
-
i think this is a really good thread, thank you all for being respectful towards one another
grim, amazing post
-
But how do we know that Christianity is the correct religion? What if Jesus really was some crazy guy like the jews believed? What if the Muslims are right? How will we know?
its called having faith
everyone has faith in something else
there is no right or wrong answer to it
-
i don't have one. But if i had to choose the religion that most closely ressembled my personal idealogies, it would be LaVeyian Satanism (not to be confused with Theatic Satanism - aka. the one that believes in pitchforks and Hell).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laveyan_satanism
but yeah, i don't align myself with any ONE religion. I pick and choose certain aspects of different religions that i find to be worth following and integrate them into my day-to-day life. Every religion has it's faults, so it's almost impossible for an invidividual to fully immserse themselves in one.
i was brought up Cathlolic and still go to church almost every Sunday (mostly for the free donuts).
-
i always find it funny, hypocritical, and quite ironic how absolutely judgmental many christians (especially those VERY set in their ways) are. their religion teaches them not to judge ("only god can judge me"), unfairly or otherwise, and yet they insist on telling non-believers that they are missing a part of their soul... that there is a void in their life... that you are WRONG and are damned for it... where's the justification there? this is one of the problems i have with religion, especially the big 2 that teach conversion strongly (christianity and islam).
i'm certainly a believer in "whatever works for you", as who am i to conjecture that my belief of why we are here and what happens afterwords is correct. i'm down for any religious type that at least understands this. most of you are too, saying "just don't force it on me".
the problem lies that their religion of choice teaches them TO force it on you. to convert you.
you need saving, after all! ::)
That is the worst thing about christianity or any religion. Proselytizing. Its so arrogant, and I'm pretty sure has started 99% of religious wars.
Anyway, jewish by birth, and because a lot of my family died in the holocaust, I've been taught never to forget who I am. Still, on the faith side of it, I'm agnostic and I don't do rituals. I used to be atheist until a friend pointed out that juust because every religion is wrong, and any concept of god man has is really silly and mostly disproven doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of higher creative force that we could never understand or explain. If there is one, I think it wouldn't be a conscious creature, just a force of some sort.
-
I don't think atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive. Not in every case, I mean.
-
What do you call someone who believes in god but doesn't participate in religion?
-
I don't think atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive. Not in every case, I mean.
I thought they were by definition? Like atheism is a certainty in the fact that their is no god, and agnostics just don't know, and many think it is impossible to know, which prevents them from being religious at all. but atheism almost is a religion I think. I don't know, can you explain what you mean?
-
My man.
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j52/biggwatt/LuciferCastOut.jpg)
-
i dunno.
baptised a Catholic (obviously not by choice) became "christian" by choice (cuz i hated going to Catholic church, too long as a kid it sucked)
then stopped going to church all together & now i just live by basic morals that i feel everyone should live by in order to live a "normal & good karma'd life".
1.dont kill anyone
2.dont steal
3.treat others how you want to be treated
4.dont be "that guy"
5.appreciate everything you do have
6.respect goes a long way
7.do good things for others, dont hesitate (im always helping pushing cars on highways, giving my friends a ride cuz they ran out of gas 2 hours up north,etc) ...shit like that
no one should go to church unless they want to.. i hate it when people try to make you feel bad about it. theres no point unless you want to.
i live everyday like this & my life has been pretty rad. & if there is a heaven, im sure God will hook it up, if not.. then i tried & i'll see you all in hell!
-
god is real, and he loves all of us.
-
this book is my bible: (http://cfs12.tistory.com/image/25/tistory/2008/12/02/09/17/49347e94a5a8a)
and it sums up my "religion"
epic shit.
-
I don't quite understand when a person tells me that "God" created me. My mom and dad fucked and that was how I was born. So, how did "God" create me?
-
Is there any "real" satanists ?
Or do you all just do it for shock value ?
Because it seems like people only get into so they piss parents off and write 666 everywhere
-
Is there any "real" satanists ?
Or do you all just do it for shock value ?
Because it seems like people only get into so they piss parents off and write 666 everywhere
yeah it's like a trend where i live.
all these dudes reppin' satan 666 & whatever, but when it comes down to it they all say, Nah.. im not down for the devil.
i don't get it?
i think everything in life has became a trend at one point.
-
I'm down for the devil brah.
-
atheist, b/c i’m not a regular kook/pedophile.
-
Expand Quote
I don't think atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive. Not in every case, I mean.
Yeah, I should've expanded that a bit... there are basically a ton of grey areas, then there are some on the atheistic side that can prevent agnostic atheism, and you pointed to it.
With agnosticism, there's a general claim that one's just not sure.
Next to that is theistic agnosticism, which is a belief that there probably is a god or even a few, but you're not sure which it is and are satisfied not being worried about it because it's unknowable.
Then there's implicit and explicit atheism... that's where I meant in not every case, and your scenario is one of those cases.
With implicit atheism, you simply lack a belief in gods and whatnot, but in my opinion, you have to accept that that framework of thought can be easily falsifiable. Today, right now, I'm an atheist that lacks a belief in every god I know of, and I probably lack that theistic belief for a lot of god I don't know about... but I reserve room that if a god's existence can be proven to me, I'll have to accept the reality that it's right there staring at me. I find the likelihood of that happening to be just about zero. A good example of what I mean is Bertrand Russel's (now adopted by Dawkins) known as the teacup scenario. What if some random cat said there was a teacup orbiting the sun super close... too close to observe or verify. I wouldn't believe it, but because I lack the ability to prove that the teacup exists, I can't be absolutely certain, though my doubts in general outweigh my consideration of its possibility. In this way, I'm an atheist because I don't have a belief in a celestial teacup, but I have to incorporate agnosticism to a degree, because I don't have the means to disprove the ascertain, even though it's completely ludicrous.
The atheist you described is an explicit atheist, a system of thought sometimes referred to as "strong atheism" (versus weak atheism, alternatively called negative and positive atheism). Personally, I find this type of atheism to be flawed on its base:
Explicit atheists try to take an authoritative, absolute, positive assertion that "there are no gods, that's it, end of story."
I find that type of atheism (and the one you illustrated) to be as flawed as any religion that claims to know the unknowable... but because they claim to know that there are no gods, they're the one's that don't fit with with agnostic wonderment. They override any notion of the possibility of a cosmic being, and even though they're probably right on the lack of gods part, I don't trust absolute statements like that. To me it's as flawed as saying "there is definitely a God of Gods, and his name is Jehovah-jireh!"
Last thing to add on this, any Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindis, or any other people here with a mono or polytheistic belief system are nearly as atheist as me, so it's not really a stretch to see where we're coming from. I'll use Christianity as an example... you believe in God, I don't. But that's where our differences disappear. We both share a lack of belief in Ra, Shiva, Thor, the Muslim version of Allah, and even the "angels" that visited Joseph Smith (who eventually created Mormonism). Theists are atheists with the exception of one god or gods. Some of us just look at your god the same way we both look at sun gods or all the Pharaohs that are partying it up in the land of the dead.
Anyway, there are a lot of grey areas in implicit atheism and agnosticism that allow them to overlap. The explicit atheists don't allow room for that train of thought.
-
Expand Quote
Is there any "real" satanists ?
Or do you all just do it for shock value ?
Because it seems like people only get into so they piss parents off and write 666 everywhere
yeah it's like a trend where i live.
all these dudes reppin' satan 666 & whatever, but when it comes down to it they all say, Nah.. im not down for the devil.
i don't get it?
i think everything in life has became a trend at one point.
even Slayer isn't down for the devil.
black metal bands though, over in Scandanavia, there are cats who have burned down churches with folks inside, that's pure hate filed devilry.
My boss came up to me not so long ago and handed me a little piece of paper with a story on it and said "Stevie, you're a smart kid. you're going into the service (navy) and i just want you to read this when you get a chance to be alone. It's not about church or religion, it's about god, it's about you."
To me, that's what it's all about, god, or whatever, that's what we are, in and of ourselves, our own god. many of the religious teachings out there offer some means to teach people how to be decent. It's all in how they're applied i suppose.
whatever happens before and after individual creation is kind of a moot point, no one will ever know. I guess the best bet would be for everyone to smoke some DMT....
-
i don't try to classify the various drivel that occupies my mind into some useless category.
-
i don't try to classify the various drivel that occupies my mind into some useless category.
I'm a geek. I'm compelled to categorize things.
-
that's cool. I just have a hard time proclaiming to subscribe to any particular train of thought when i can never know for sure that what I believe is the same as others in that group. and i like to think my views are constantly evolving and dependent on an unlimited number of variables. so basically, i don't "believe" in anything, i just go with what i know and base my actions off the specifics of the situation.
-
I am agnostic, all religion is a tool to control others, no thanks on that.
-
that's cool. I just have a hard time proclaiming to subscribe to any particular train of thought when i can never know for sure that what I believe is the same as others in that group. and i like to think my views are constantly evolving and dependent on an unlimited number of variables. so basically, i don't "believe" in anything, i just go with what i know and base my actions off the specifics of the situation.
ditto.
you should read the power of myth by joseph cambel, it will blow your mind.
-
I don't believe in anything. I've never been to a church before and I don't plan on going to one any time soon.
Atheists hate religion, but I just don't even care or think about it.
-
Atheists hate religion, but I just don't even care or think about it.
Atheists generally don't hate religion, they just lack one since they don't have supernatural faith.
-
Expand Quote
Atheists hate religion, but I just don't even care or think about it.
this is true. although i am an exception. i think i'm on a christopher hitchens level of atheism right now. wherever i go religion is slammed in my face, and i'm bummed out that it's on the currency and shit of the country i will be living in for the next decade or so. yes, the US. your country has got things pretty twisted.
Speaking of religion.
Today in my world religion class some girl was going on about how we can only be this smart because god allowed us to be this smart, that's why animals are so dumb. She said we are smart because we can talk and she compared deaf people to animals........
that's a real weak thing to say, and a very superficial argument. the reason we can communicate stems from thousands of years of development, starting from grunts that are virtually par to a dog's bark. and with our uniquely aposable thumbs, we created tools, scribbled some shit, and it all went awesome from there. that's some basic evolution for ya.
religion is ridiculous. it boggles my mind that so many people are so blinded. yet, it intrigues me so damn much.
-
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
-
http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html (http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html)
-
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
Wasn't the devil supposed to get born on 06.06.06? My mom's friend, who was a religious freak, was supposed to deliver on that day. Because she didn't want a "demon child", she got surgery and had it taken out a day before.
-
Expand Quote
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
he wasnt born on 06/06/06 but geoff rowley's bday fell on it
-
I think Hitchens is an anti-theist, even if Christianity were true, he'd still reject that God.
A good example of what I mean is Bertrand Russel's (now adopted by Dawkins) known as the teacup scenario. What if some random cat said there was a teacup orbiting the sun super close... too close to observe or verify. I wouldn't believe it, but because I lack the ability to prove that the teacup exists, I can't be absolutely certain, though my doubts in general outweigh my consideration of its possibility. In this way, I'm an atheist because I don't have a belief in a celestial teacup, but I have to incorporate agnosticism to a degree, because I don't have the means to disprove the ascertain, even though it's completely ludicrous.
But some truths require that you make some effort to reach out. If I wonder if somebody likes me, I can't sit and wait for evidence before I approach them, since whether someone likes me depends on how I act, how I might reach out to them. The same might be true about God. To know the existence of God might require acts on your part. If you insist on waiting for evidence before you believe, that evidence may never come. But if you take a chance and reach out, then such a truth might be realized (or become known)
I like William James's argument for voluntary belief (faith). Basically when an issue can't be decided on intellectual grounds, you allow the decision to made on your passions. With religion there are two dominant passions: fear of being wrong (so you won't accept until the evidence is convincing) or hope that it is true. James says "dupery for dupery, I don't see why dupery through hope is any worse than dupery through fear."
Even though I’m not a believer I’m still down for the arguments:
God is that which nothing greater can be conceived (the highest being)
Objects can be conceived as existing in the mind (exist only in the imagination - like unicorns) or in the mind and in reality (exist as a thought but also in the world - like the Moon)
It is a greater God to conceive of God as existing in mind and reality than in the mind alone
So, given the first premise, God exists in mind and reality not just in the mind alone
-
Atheism doesn't proactively search for some higher truth, it's just a default position... it's a neutral act. If not believing in something were proactive, we'd all be spending every waking moment actively disbelieving in everything that isn't real all the way to infinity.
As far as waiting for evidence before I believe, yes. I'm not waiting for evidence, nor do I expect it.
The "reaching out" you're talking about would require something that I choose not to take part in, irrational faith (that's not a knock, it's the term).
I have faith, but it's rational faith. I have faith that my car is parked on the side of my house because I just saw it a couple of minutes ago. I have reason to believe it's there. Then again, even with a rational faith, I must accept reality if I were to walk outside and find that my car has been stolen.
Irrational faith is faith based on a lack of any evidence. I've had that type of faith before, but now I lack it. I do have an irrational fear of flying though.
-
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
the bible also says that a woman was created from a mans rib, some dude lived in a fish, another dude got god to split an ocean etc.
the bible says a lot of shit...
by the way, why the fuck would god need a rib to make a bitch when he just zapped everything else on the world from nothing? never thought about that before
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-cbpQqqRBo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-cbpQqqRBo)
Dont know if this is posted...But watch it 4sure
-
Expand Quote
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
the bible says a lot of shit...
by the way, why the fuck would god need a rib to make a bitch when he just zapped everything else on the world from nothing? never thought about that before
it also says that doing yoga and eating lobster are sins, and you will go to hell.
if you can believe some things in the bible while rejecting certain aspects, to me, that entails a rejection of the bible as a whole- as if you think god's word isn't always right, you're not accepting your religion.
furthermore if we have this ability to pick and choose which aspects are favourable and which aren't, that shows we have innate morality, rendering religion redundant. what religion does to these innate morals, if anything, is skewer them. the church preaches togetherness but teaches hatred and segregation. the same goes for judaism, islam, and hinduism.
that is why i reject religion.
-
George Carlin on religion..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
-
* Osiris
o Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who "made men and women to be born again."
o Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris' star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth
o Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the 'plant of Truth'.
o The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death...
o The Lord's Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, 'O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven. Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer.
o The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word.
o As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead.
o In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the 72."
o Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal.
* Horus
o Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
o His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
o He was of royal descent.
o At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
o Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
o He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").
o He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead.
o Horus walked on water.
o His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child."
o He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
o Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
o He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.
o Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.
o Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
o He came to fulfill the Law.
o Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
o Was supposed to reign one thousand years.
That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted. So as Clara Peller used to say, Where's the beef? Where's the original Egyptian lit that backs this up? Christ-Mythers: we do not want to hear from Gerald Massey or Godfrey Higgins; we want the original citation from Egyptian records. If I don't hear from any of you within a year (and I know that they check in on this site, because I hear from them), I'll assume no response is possible and go back to more copycat projects. In some cases below we will draw upon Glenn Miller's copycat article where he has done some previous work.
For convenience I begin by reproducing the "thumbnail sketch of Horus' life" given in Encyclopedia of Religions as offered by Miller, which also lays the groundwork for Osiris:
"In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. According to myth, Osiris, who assumed the rulership of the earth shortly after its creation, was slain by his jealous brother, Seth. The sister- wife of Osiris, Isis, who collected the pieces of her dismembered husband and revived him, also conceived his son and avenger, Horus. Horus fought with Seth, and, despite the loss of one eye in the contest, was successful in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris then became king of the dead and Horus king of the living, this transfer being renewed at every change of earthly rule. The myth of divine kingship probably elevated the position of the god as much as it did that of the king. In the fourth dynasty, the king, the living god, may have been one of the greatest gods as well, but by the fifth dynasty the supremacy of the cult of Re, the sun god, was accepted even by the kings. The Horus-king was now also "son of Re." This was made possible mythologically by personifying the entire older genealogy of Horus (the Heliopolitan ennead) as the goddess Hathor, "house of Horus," who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.
"Horus was usually represented as a falcon, and one view of him was as a great sky god whose outstretched wings filled the heavens; his sound eye was the sun and his injured eye the moon. Another portrayal of him particularly popular in the Late Period, was as a human child suckling at the breast of his mother, Isis. The two principal cult centers for the worship of Horus were at Bekhdet in the north, where very little survives, and at Idfu in the south, which has a very large and well- preserved temple dating from the Ptolemaic period. The earlier myths involving Horus, as well as the ritual per- formed there, are recorded at Idfu."
Osiris
* Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who "made men and women to be born again." The titles I have found ascribed to Osiris are [Fraz.AAO] Lord of All, the Good Being (the most common title), Lord of the Underworld, Lord/King of Eternity, Ruler of the Dead, [Griff.OO] Lord of the West, Great One, [Bud.ERR, 26] "he who takes seat," the Begetter, the Ram, [Bud.ERR, 79] "great Word" (as in, "the word of what cometh into being and what is not" -- a reflection of the ancient idea of the creative power of speech, found likewise in the Greek Logos), "Chief of the Spirits"; [Short.EG, 37] ruler of everlastingness, [Meek.DL, 31] "living god," "God above the gods." All of these are either general titles we would expect to be assigned to any head honcho deity, or else are related to O's command over the underworld. None of the ones cited closest and uniquely like unto Jesus were found.
* Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris' star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth. Freke and Gandy repeat only the last part about the star. But while some scholars connect Osiris with Orion, they do not know anything about wise men or a star in the east.
* Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the 'plant of Truth'. Not that anyone in the scholarly lit has reported.
* The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death... If this is so, no commentator in Egyptian religion or the OT knows about it. Osiris would possibly be known as a shepherd as such imagery was common in the ANE, but I have not seen it yet applied to him by anyone but mythicists.
* The Lord's Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, 'O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.' Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer. If so, we want to know where this prayer is recorded, and so would experts in Egyptian religion. The Hebrew "Amen" is never used as a salutation and means "let it be so" which means it is not "invoked" as a deity is. Beyond that, let's see an etymological connection based on the original languages, not on the correspondence of English characters.
* The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word. If so, someone other than Achy's source, James Churchward, needs to put them side by side and prove it. The Egyptian religious scholars don't seem aware of it.
* As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead. This is a bit non-specific. Frazer reported [Fraz.AAO, vii, 7] that Osiris taught winemaking and agriculture, gave the Egyptians laws, taught them proper worship, and traveled the word teaching these things. But this is the claim that was made of Dionysus as well, and we have answered that point within that essay. Not that it matters, since it seems only Frazer and later Freke and Gandy have an idea that the two are connected. Literature written by scholars of Egyptian religion do not treat them as the same, though some connect Osiris and Orion, and Budge notes the travels but does not connect Osiris and Dionysius [Bud.ERR, 9]. In any event Osiris is nowhere called a "god of the vine". He is ruler and judge of the dead, but this doesn't describe Jesus, who represents a God who is not God of the dead, "but of the living." At most it represents what might be expected of any supreme deity: to rule and to judge.
* In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the 72." This is a combination of terminological fudging, half-truth, and irrelevancy. There was no "passion" -- in the incident alluded to, O. was indeed plotted against by Set. There was a big party, at which Set had a coffin brought in and encouraged everyone, including 72 participants in the scheme and one queen of Ethiopia, to lay down for a fit. Finally it came O's turn, and he was persuaded to lay down in the coffin. Once O was inside, Set nailed the coffin shut and threw it in the river; O suffocated. Note that the 72 here are enemies of O, not his disciples: only the number -- a multiple of 12, a number we still hold in regard today when we purchase eggs and donuts -- is a common touchpoint (and that only in some mss. of Luke 10; others put the number at 70, possibly representing the number of Gentile nations, according to the Jews). They do nothing at all that could be considered like what Jesus' disciples did. As the story goes further, O's wife Isis went looking for the coffin. She found it in Syria, where it had been incorporated into the pillar of a house. She lamented so loudly that some kids in the house died of fright. Later she took it out, opened it up, then went looking for Horus. Meanwhile Set found the coffin and tore the body in 14 pieces which he threw all over the place. In one result Isis went looking for the pieces and buried them as she found them. An alternate story has Isis, Anubis, and Ra piecing the body together, swathing it with bandages, and reviving him -- more on this below.
* Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal. This is where we find some of the biggest misuse of terminology, including by some Egyptian scholars of religion (who do not go on to posit a "copycat" relationship!). Osiris resurrected? Not if "resurrection" is defined as coming back in a glorified body. On this point Miller has done some substantial work, reporting the words of J. Z. Smith, so I will let these speak to begin:
"Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern (as described by Frazer et.al.); most certainly it was never considered as an annual event."
"In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods (as described by Frazer et.al.)."
"The repeated formula 'Rise up, you have not died,' whether applied to Osiris or a citizen of Egypt, signaled a new, permanent life in the realm of the dead."
Frankfort concurs:
"Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king." [Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289]
Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body. ["The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?" David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169
Frazer [Fraz.AAO, viii] wrote that every dead man was given Osiris' name on top of his own in order to identify with the god.
So O's "resurrection" is no resurrection at all -- and in fact was actually a sort of function of the way the Egyptian gods were, shall we say, being half Frankenstein, half Lego set. There are in fact many stories of the Egyptian gods flinging various body parts around, and to no overall harm, because "divine bodies were thought to be impervious to change" [Meek.DL, 57] and so O's dead body neither rotted nor decomposed as it waited to be put back together. This is how it was with all these Egyptian gods: Seth and Horus have a fight in which they throw dung at each other then steal each others' genitals [Bud.ERR, 64]. Horus' eye is stolen by Set, but Horus gets it back and gives it to Osiris, who eats it [ibid., 88]. Horus had a headache, and another deity offers to loan him his head until the headache went away [Meek.DL, 57]. Osiris did pay a price for his dismembering death, in that he was limited to the world of the dead [and manifestly ignorant as a result of what went on "above ground" -- Meek.DL, 88-9], but that is only because he had actually died once before when his father accidentally killed him [ibid., 80].
Horus
Now we get to the matters of Horus. Many of these have had some input from Miller, so we'll report those and add as needed.
* Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. The lit has confirmed what Miller offers, and I have also seen the depiction he refers to below. I have found no reference to a cave/manger -- Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.
...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.
Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:
"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word 'satan' is not a 'cognate' of the name 'seth' by any means: "The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible" DDD, s.v. 1369f]
-
The one reference I have found to a birth of Horus has him born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak -- the mythers have a one in 365 chance that this matches Dec. 25th! Achy adds, with Massey as a likely source, the claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the "Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin," complete with three wise men. For some reason neither Achy nor Massey provide a name or number for this carving, or a location any more specific than the Luxor Temple, which is a rather huge place that is inaccessible to most of Achy's readers. When pressed by an inquirer at her site, Achy plays word games -- "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." -- and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD! No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Achy thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey. (A writer recently sent this description from an Egyptian tour site: "Kingship was believed to be ordained by the gods at the beginning of time in accordance with ma'at., the well-ordered state, truth, justice, cosmic order. The reigning king was also the physical son of the Creator sun-god. This divine conception and birth was recorded on the walls of Luxor Temple, at Deir el-Bahri, and other royal cult temples throughout Egypt. The king was also an incarnation of the dynastic god Horus, and when deceased, the king was identified with the father of Horus, Osiris. This living king was thus a unique entity, the living incarnation of deity, divinely chosen intermediary, who could act as priest for the entire nation, reciting the prayers, dedicating the sacrifices...A peristyle forecourt of Amenhotep III is fused with the hypostyle hall, which is the first room in the inner, originally roofed, part of the temple. This leads to a series of for antechambers with subsidiary rooms. The Birth Room east of the second antechamber is decorated with reliefs showing the symbolic divine birth of Amenhotep III resulting from the union of his mother Mutemwiya and the god Amun. The bark sanctuary includes a free-standing building added by Alexander the Great within the larger chamber created by Amenhotep III. Well-preserved reliefs show Amun's portable bark shrine and other scenes of the king in the presence of the gods. The sanctuary of Amenhotep III is the last room on the central axis of the temple." This is significantly devoid of a virgin conception or birth, wise men, or a Holy Ghost. You might squeeze an adoration out of it, but who does not adore newborns anyway? But now see the trump card, provided by a Skeptic ashamed of Achy's thesis; see here.)
* His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Actually Seb was the earth-god, not "earthly," but rather the earth itself (as Nut was the sky), and he was O's dad, not Horus', though one of my helpful researchers tells me there is one version in which Horus was the son of Seb. And don't fall for the etymological trick or treat: You can't get from "Seb" to "Joseph" just by putting the names next to each other.
* He was of royal descent. Obviously true, and Horus was often identified with the living Pharaoh, but so commonplace as to be meaningless.
* At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
* Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
* He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns"). Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this. On this last Miller notes:
...my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere... Horus is NOT the sun-god (that's Re), so we cannot use the 'all solar gods have twelve disciples--in the Zodiac' routine here.]
* He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead. Miller notes:
Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR's, so this 'similarity' carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature. I have looked under all forms of the name to no avail. The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation. The closest thing to it I can find is in Horus' official funerary role, in which he "introduces" the newly dead to Osirus and his underworld kingdom. In the Book of the Dead, for example, Horus introduces the newly departed Ani to Osirus, and asks Osirus to accept and care for Ani (GOE:1.490).
* Horus walked on water. Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water (see below).
* His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child." Miller says:
This fact has likewise escaped me and my research. I have looked at probably 50 epithets of the various Horus deities, and most major indices of the standard Egyptology reference works and come up virtually empty-handed. I can find a city named "Iusaas" [GOE:1.85], a pre-Islamic Arab deity by the name of "Iusaas", thought by some to be the same as the Egyptian god Tehuti/Thoth [GOE:2.289], and a female counterpart to Tem, named "Iusaaset" [GOE:1.354]. But no reference to Horus as being "Iusa"... ]
* He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
* Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
* He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected. None of these three can be found, either. On the last Miller writes:
I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...
I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis' request. But that's a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel.
* Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth. I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who "killed" Osiris). He may have been called rightly "Son of Man" as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.
* Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
* He came to fulfill the Law.
* Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
* Was supposed to reign one thousand years. I have found no evidence for any of these last four.
-
Sorry for the length of this, but I think it is very important to read. It shows that early Jewish people took legends from Egypt and adapted them to their own religion.
-
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
the bible says a lot of shit...
by the way, why the fuck would god need a rib to make a bitch when he just zapped everything else on the world from nothing? never thought about that before
if you can believe some things in the bible while rejecting certain aspects, to me, that entails a rejection of the bible as a whole- as if you think god's word isn't always right, you're not accepting your religion.
furthermore if we have this ability to pick and choose which aspects are favourable and which aren't, that shows we have innate morality, rendering religion redundant. what religion does to these innate morals, if anything, is skewer them. the church preaches togetherness but teaches hatred and segregation. the same goes for judaism, islam, and hinduism.
that is why i reject religion.
you are right, but to add one thing to it, not everyone views it as God's word, there are a some positive things in about all religious books/texts, that being said it pretty much proves it isnt really about any specific religion so dont think that im not agreeing with you, but you can feel that God embraces something even if it was jsut written by humans, just like you can believe God doesn't feel that way even if someone wrote it in a religious book
also with that being said, if you feel that way you cant claim a specific religion Sorry for the length of this, but I think it is very important to read. It shows that early Jewish people took legends from Egypt and adapted them to their own religion.
dont worry about the length, thank you for posting it i look forward to reading it later tonight
-
Do the Muslims have any tie to the jews?
-
Do the Muslims have any tie to the jews?
Judaism,Christianity and Islam all came from the same area.
-
Here's a question I have:
Did Jesus actually exist? And if he didn't, how did the christians decide to leave Judaism and start their own religion if he didn't exist?
-
Christianae sunt nefas , laudare Saturnia!
-
Here's a question I have:
Did Jesus actually exist? And if he didn't, how did the christians decide to leave Judaism and start their own religion if he didn't exist?
Read what I posted.
-
Be not afraid or in worship of any propossed diety
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6n3sZlqrCs&feature=PlayList&p=27FC0F6CF75A6C89&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19
-
The bible says that many people losing faith is a sign of the apocalypse :o
speaking of signs of the apocalypse...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YJgaW04kis&feature=channel_page
-
Christianae sunt nefas , laudare Saturnia!
Mod Alert:
Troll
Mod Alert:
Foreign Language
-
Expand Quote
Do the Muslims have any tie to the jews?
Judaism,Christianity and Islam all came from the same area.
Don't they both share the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament I think)? I know they share the same beliefs of the Old Testament and the Muslims also believe Jesus was a prophet. Just not the son of God.
I think their dietary restrictions are super similar too, in fact I really don't know the difference.
I'm Christian but kind of agnostic about a lot of theological talking points. I don't really understand/care too much about the trinity or the works/faith debate. I also take and leave what I want from the Bible socially. To me I try and put it in historical context.
I don't go to church very often but I enjoy a socially progressive church every now and then and I also like the tradition/symbolism of the Catholic church. So I enjoy a mass every now and then as long as the priest doesn't get political.
-
Muslims have the same dietary laws as jews. No swine. Different name but pretty much identical methods. Jews call it kosher, I think muslims call it hallal or something. But muslims often times keep kosher delis in business.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=ZVCC7B90 (http://www.megavideo.com/?v=ZVCC7B90)
Fun with religious hypocrisy!
The horus thing is in there. Bill Maher is cocky as fuck, but can be funny, and from time to time makes a point.
-
Shove bacon in your ass and see if a cHristian will eat it, male or female.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC-SeW7hScU
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius
^ I would call myself a subgenius.
I don't believe in all the literal stuff with the Hindu religion, nor do I practice it or revere any of their dieties, but the fundamental principals are great. Read the Bhagavad Gita, it talks about the karmic system and stuff and it's really great.
“One who has control over the mind is tranquil in heat and cold, in pleasure and pain, and in honor and dishonor; and is ever steadfast with the Supreme Self.”
“The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.”
“Sever the ignorant doubt in your heart with the sword of self-knowledge. Observe your discipline. Arise.”
there's more, just read the book. It's awesome
-
christian hosoi on text yoself made me cringe, and reminded me how sad i am for people like him who are so deluded in thinking that prayers actually do anything. the amount of self-righteousness they have when they speak them is gross.
-
Did Jesus actually exist? And if he didn't, how did the christians decide to leave Judaism and start their own religion if he didn't exist?
Nobody knows for sure. The books of the New Testament were written decades after the events they cover, and the closest anyone got to doing any sort of biography on him was Josephus, about 100 years after the New Testament death of Jesus.
No historical evidence, but nothing there to say he wasn't a real guy.
-
Expand Quote
Did Jesus actually exist? And if he didn't, how did the christians decide to leave Judaism and start their own religion if he didn't exist?
No historical evidence, but nothing there to say he wasn't a real guy.
After reading about other myths that are so similar to the story of Jesus (and came first by many years) I am going to say if he existed, he wasn't the person we thought he was.
-
All religions are impractical and never make sense. Its all false claims and stupid rituals. Its brainwashing at its finest. I live by morality, not by some story book full of fairy tales.
Give it 100 years and logic will prevail, see ya later religion!
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8&feature=response_watch
hilarious.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8&feature=response_watch
hilarious.
...and scary considering the source of the script.
-
religion is so gay dude
-
God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling. Kook me if you want. But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \
-
I doubt it.
-
God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling. Kook me if you want. But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \
i can tell you why, indocrination! yay!
-
All religions are impractical and never make sense. Its all false claims and stupid rituals. Its brainwashing at its finest. I live by morality, not by some story book full of fairy tales.
Give it 100 years and logic will prevail, see ya later religion!
I think its creepy that you have all these super religious people who think that morality and religion ruun hand in hand. You don't need religion to know right from wrong, and just because you have religion doesn't mean you live a moral life.God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling. Kook me if you want. But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \
That's fine to think something is bigger than us out there, but really? the god and messiah in THAT story? Its a ridiculous several thousand year old document that doesn't even understand the world as well as modern man does, let alone greater truths we can't understand.
-
i was raised christian but the pope is a fagget and jesus is a cunt so fuck that shit im straight islam now like Malcolm, yall 85% snakes
Mod Alert:
Religious intolerance
Mod Alert:
Slander
-
God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling. Kook me if you want. But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \
Here's an example of the brainwashing i mentioned. hate to bring the bad news, but theres nothing out there but star dust and interstellar debri. Oh and the moon.
And if im wrong, have this god of yours focus my account right now....
-
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
i was raised christian but the pope is a fagget and jesus is a cunt so fuck that shit im straight islam now like Malcolm, yall 85% snakes
Mod Alert:
Religious intolerance
Mod Alert:
Slander
dude enough with this shit ur lookin real gay right now
my penis on my forehead for mod!
-
Just trying to bring up an argument:
Do you guys think there are just some things out there that cannot be scientifically proven? What if religion is beyond science and there's no way to prove it but there is in fact a higher power? If there was a higher power, wouldn't he make it so that there's no scientific proof of his existence?
-
Death scares the shit outta me. It's almost like you never existed, that's heavy. I can see why so many embrace religion so you don't have to think about the possibilities, some guy will be waiting there with your last name on a sign to escort you to heaven. I don't think Jesus ever existed, other ancient mystery religions also had the Christ scenario story as their foundation and they predate the birth of Jesus. There's alot to be learned from the degrees of Freemasonry, they contain the truth of all religions wrapped in allegory passed down through the ages for those seekers who are esoterically inclined.
Considering that energy cannot be created or destroyed,I think the idea of karma & reincarnation makes the most sense but I can't sneak it past my doubt. Might explain why some people feel they have lived many lives. Shamans and those types speak of a 'psychic reservoir' of this energy from which we are all born and return to when we die. That's how the universe recycles perhaps.
-
Just trying to bring up an argument:
Do you guys think there are just some things out there that cannot be scientifically proven?
probably not, if you're talking about questions of existence related to science. there's a lot of stuff that, for the time being at least, is beyond the range of the peoples' minds. a person not being able to figure something out doesn't mean there isn't an answer though, or that there has to be some supernatural reason. also, the human race is still pretty young compared to most species, so, if it manages to survive long enough, maybe other ways of finding answers (or deciding there aren't any) could come about.
-
Do you guys think there are just some things out there that cannot be scientifically proven?
Science continuously "disproves" itself in order to follow accurate data. It's part of forming a theory, and why scientists publish in peer reviewed journals.
What if religion is beyond science and there's no way to prove it but there is in fact a higher power?
Like you said, there's still no proof.
As far as religion being beyond science... you might as well be talking about crayons versus motorcycles. Completely different things.
Religion typically claims to "know," wheras science's biggest strength is the fact that it continually evaluates and reevaluates.
If there was a higher power, wouldn't he make it so that there's no scientific proof of his existence?
Why waste all that time creating all of the scientific evidence leaning towards a natural beginning? Why would a being like this hide his tracks?
-
(http://www.sne.org/conference/images/QuakerUSLogo_000.gif)
for real
EDIT. I don't practice really, but my parents do. From what I've seen, its more about community than it is God. You can be quaker and not believe in God/Jesus.
Hey, me too. I don't go to meeting either but sometimes I think I might. I'm not religious at all but the community aspect is really good.
Usually really nice people.
-
Expand Quote
God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling. Kook me if you want. But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \
Here's an example of the brainwashing i mentioned. hate to bring the bad news, but theres nothing out there but star dust and interstellar debri. Oh and the moon.
And if im wrong, have this god of yours focus my account right now....
I havent been brainwashed.....Like I said I have this feeling. I've had physical experiences with god. I've felt crazy energy. I know it sound regular but I'm just being real. If I hadnt felt this type of incident before then I dont think I would believe in this. You don't have to agree I just am sharing my experience. Regardless, religion aside. Theres no way in hell that all of this entire universe just magically poofed into existance. Even if it did poof,who made the poof? Saying the universe came to existance by accident is like having every little piece needed to make a watch. Then throwing the watch and in mid air it magically comes together and not only functions but has the right time and date. It just doesn't match up. Its scientifically impossible.
-
People who are so anti-religion are usually just anti religious establishment and are not sure of the difference, at least from my experience. Religion per se is really helpful for a lot of people, but when it is tainted by people who start to use fascist ideology to push their agenda or their beliefs then the value of religion is completely lost. I intensely dislike organized religion for the most part, but I find nearly all religions have merit and value to people who use the basic principles as a guideline to living a better life.
-
People who are so anti-religion are usually just anti religious establishment and are not sure of the difference, at least from my experience. Religion per se is really helpful for a lot of people, but when it is tainted by people who start to use fascist ideology to push their agenda or their beliefs then the value of religion is completely lost. I intensely dislike organized religion for the most part, but I find nearly all religions have merit and value to people who use the basic principles as a guideline to living a better life.
I think that many of the teachings of the different religions are often wise, though none has it all right on any standard. Its dogma and prostylezation or however you spell it that are a problem.
-
Expand Quote
God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling. Kook me if you want. But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \
Here's an example of the brainwashing i mentioned. hate to bring the bad news, but theres nothing out there but star dust and interstellar debri. Oh and the moon.
And if im wrong, have this god of yours focus my account right now....
no sun you say, no marz? show me the proof dawggie.
-
I havent been brainwashed.....Like I said I have this feeling.
Nobody can deny you that. If you're feeling it and it works for you, roll with it.
I've had physical experiences with god. I've felt crazy energy. I know it sound regular but I'm just being real. If I hadnt felt this type of incident before then I dont think I would believe in this. You don't have to agree I just am sharing my experience.
This is personal for you and a pretty sensitive topic, I sincerely don't mean to offend you, but if someone approached you and said that they had had a real, physical experience with... let's say a unicorn made out of unearthly energy... you'd probably think that they're experiencing some schizophrenia, wouldn't you? What's the difference? A lot of people experience things that they perceive to be very real, it's excused when it's religious, but when it's not, it's considered a chemical imbalance or some sort of misfiring in the brain.
I'm not calling you crazy, I'm just saying that it seems like it's ok for people to think their god talks to them, but if someone thinks they're getting alien signals in their tooth fillings, they're nuts. What's the difference?
Regardless, religion aside. Theres no way in hell that all of this entire universe just magically poofed into existance.
According to the data we have, the universe started off and continues through a series of completely natural processes.
Anyway, the natural model of the beginning of the universe doesn't claim that it was "poofed" into existence, it states that a point of singularity expanded rapidly, distributing mass, matter, gravity, and eventually light as it cooled and the physics it's all bound by contributed to the levels of complexity we see today.
On the other hand, it's certain fundamentalist religious thought that claim we were "poofed" into existence. Stellar evolution took billions of years, not a "poof."
Even if it did poof,who made the poof?
Why must it be a "who?" Your presupposition that it must have been based on a "who" limits the scope you're willing to look through.
If your god is real, who made him? If you don't think a generally non-thinking universe can't exist without the assistance of a creator, then surely an intelligent being must be required to create another intelligent being?
Saying the universe came to existance by accident is like having every little piece needed to make a watch.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
The universe wasn't an accident, it just was. It's something that happened, and for all we know was an inevitability that may very well happen over and over again (either to this universe or to other universes that exist in mathematical/M-Theory universe models).
Your watch analogy is flawed from the start... with a watch, elements are turned into substances which are turned into textiles, which are machined and fabricated, which are assembled... with the goal of building a watch.
Physics doesn't build watches by itself, and evolution (stellar and biological) has no predetermined goal. Within the confines of physics as we know it (outside of Quantum), we see that complexity randomly arises from simplicity over millions and billions of years in a somewhat predictable fashion.
However, if a four billion year old watch is ever found inside a meteorite I'll be the first to step up and take my licks for being wrong.
Then throwing the watch and in mid air it magically comes together and not only functions but has the right time and date. It just doesn't match up. Its scientifically impossible.
Yes, your scenario is entirely and completely scientifically impossible. Science doesn't deal with magic, and I don't think you know enough about what you don't believe in to correctly knock it.
How old do you think the universe is?
-
speaking of bertrand's teapot theory earlier, funny story-
as a kid ive always had the opportunity to travel a lot and to really quite remote places and see many different cultures (and subsequently religions and superstitions). but with one later school trip, i remember encountering a rather peculiar spiritual routine, my fellow classmate, a catholic, noted how crazy it seemed. i asked him how it was different to his, and he said "well, mine doesn't have 10 followers." even though i was at the precious age of 12, his folly was quite clear.
i think travelling really lets people realise the amount of weirdoness there is in this world in terms of religion, how many different beliefs, gods, and superstitions there are, and when they see them and apply the knowledge to their own life, it makes their own religion seem like just another one on the list. how is theirs true over the others? as a believer, one must stay firm and claim: "I must stay faithful, and due to my strongest possible faith, there cannot be a different god! for I believe so strongly." but then that person must realise that this exact same virtue is present in so many peoples with different religions, and it then becomes clear that these feelings and emotions of religious salvation are merely psychological effects from the ecstasy that is the illusion of religion.
don't get me wrong, ecstasy can be fun.
but when you think that putting a bible over your erect dick is going to stop you from getting aids over a condom, the joke really isn't very funny anymore.
-
i used to go to church on sundays, for my dad and the after church lunch. the youth group would put on performances, and this little gay kid would continuously kill it. after a show one morning, i remember the topic of study was god's disapproval for homosexuality and those who'll be scorned. i thought that was fucked up. he was one bummed azn. i couldn't help but laugh though. if you're destined to follow the path your loving god chose for you, he signed you up for hell already. i was already over church thanks to science books & carl sagan 'cosmos', at this point, but that reassured me.
religion is usually the root for worldly conflicts/issues.
i can understand diety of the sun/animals being worshiped though; spiritually is deciphered differently.
-
Expand Quote
People who are so anti-religion are usually just anti religious establishment and are not sure of the difference, at least from my experience. Religion per se is really helpful for a lot of people, but when it is tainted by people who start to use fascist ideology to push their agenda or their beliefs then the value of religion is completely lost. I intensely dislike organized religion for the most part, but I find nearly all religions have merit and value to people who use the basic principles as a guideline to living a better life.
really good post, im real glad this topic is still kickin, ive been trying to not post much but im glad its still doing good
-
Is there a reason why "god" gives special treatment to humans and not other species of animals? And if god is against homosexuality, why would he create homosexuals? Why would he make it so that people sin and go against his will? Why was "god" so involved with mankind at the beginning times but hasn't even done any of his magical things and floods during more recent times? Why would god create so many regions of people who believe in completely different religions? Why does he make all these "sinners" doomed from the start?
And I would love some answers from some religious folk
-
And if there is a god, why would he wait millions of yours to gain some legitimate followers (the jews)? Why would the creator of the Universe be fine with the paleolithic people worshiping their native gods? Wouldn't he had made it so that everyone was a follower from the get-go? I'm pretty sure there was no concept of worshipingJehovah (the christian and jewish god) until sometime in 1400 BC.
-
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
-charlie chaplin
-
Expand Quote
I havent been brainwashed.....Like I said I have this feeling.
Expand Quote
I've had physical experiences with god. I've felt crazy energy. I know it sound regular but I'm just being real. If I hadnt felt this type of incident before then I dont think I would believe in this. You don't have to agree I just am sharing my experience.
I'm not calling you crazy, I'm just saying that it seems like it's ok for people to think their god talks to them, but if someone thinks they're getting alien signals in their tooth fillings, they're nuts. What's the difference?
Expand Quote
Regardless, religion aside. Theres no way in hell that all of this entire universe just magically poofed into existance.
Anyway, the natural model of the beginning of the universe doesn't claim that it was "poofed" into existence, it states that a point of singularity expanded rapidly, distributing mass, matter, gravity, and eventually light as it cooled and the physics it's all bound by contributed to the levels of complexity we see today.
On the other hand, it's certain fundamentalist religious thought that claim we were "poofed" into existence. Stellar evolution took billions of years, not a "poof."
Expand Quote
Even if it did poof,who made the poof?
If your god is real, who made him? If you don't think a generally non-thinking universe can't exist without the assistance of a creator, then surely an intelligent being must be required to create another intelligent being?
Expand Quote
Saying the universe came to existance by accident is like having every little piece needed to make a watch.
The universe wasn't an accident, it just was. It's something that happened, and for all we know was an inevitability that may very well happen over and over again (either to this universe or to other universes that exist in mathematical/M-Theory universe models).
Your watch analogy is flawed from the start... with a watch, elements are turned into substances which are turned into textiles, which are machined and fabricated, which are assembled... with the goal of building a watch.
Physics doesn't build watches by itself, and evolution (stellar and biological) has no predetermined goal. Within the confines of physics as we know it (outside of Quantum), we see that complexity randomly arises from simplicity over millions and billions of years in a somewhat predictable fashion.
However, if a four billion year old watch is ever found inside a meteorite I'll be the first to step up and take my licks for being wrong.
Expand Quote
Then throwing the watch and in mid air it magically comes together and not only functions but has the right time and date. It just doesn't match up. Its scientifically impossible.
How old do you think the universe is?
The problem with the thought of "The universe couldn't have just come out of nowhere" line of thinking is that by saying god created it, you are just adding an additional step to the unanswerable question of where everything came from. I don't get why those who want to know where everything began are satisfied with the answer of "God."
The idea that the Universe MUST have been created, because it couldn't have come from nowhere, while God just was, and did come from nowhere confuses the hell out of me. How does that pass through a logical person's head and not ring a lot of bs alarms. I mean, how is it that one thing couldn't have come from nothing, while another could.
-
oh religion. :P
-
I'm not a believer, but I think I can play Devil's advocate and give you the lines I would have given as a believer on these (I'll answer as if I'm Christian with a semi-fundamentalist Biblical interpretation):
Is there a reason why "god" gives special treatment to humans and not other species of animals?
God doesn't give a reason, but he decided to create man in his own image... some take that to mean that man is like God in regards to the spiritual nature of man. Because of this, God gave man dominion over all of his creation.
And if god is against homosexuality, why would he create homosexuals?
God didn't make the gheys, they're an after effect of original sin.
Basically, God's initial creation was perfect and without sin, but once Lucifer helped lead Eve into sinning, sin had a negative effect on everything. Sin, mixed in with creation, devolved God's creation and continues to do so. People in the Bible reportedly lived for hundreds of years, whereas now we're lucky if we can get to (or close to) ten decades old. It was at this time that nudity became something to be ashamed of (or at least modest about), and it was probably around the time that carnivores diverged from creation and started eating other animals. The point and time that all animals were vegetarians is known as the original "age of innocence."
Why would he make it so that people sin and go against his will?
Free will was one of the first things he allowed man to have. Also, Eve was baited by Lucifer... who then baited Adam.
Why was "god" so involved with mankind at the beginning times but hasn't even done any of his magical things and floods during more recent times?
That was before God came to Earth as a man, basically redrawing his contract with humanity, making it easier for his creation to get into Heaven. At the same time, God became forgiving, partially because he knew firsthand what mankind was enduring under original sin.
Why would god create so many regions of people who believe in completely different religions?
Partially, that stems back from God's allowance of free will, and regionally, the resulting infidels are products of what happened with the sinners of the Tower of Babel.
Why does he make all these "sinners" doomed from the start?
Technically speaking, babies and kids (innocents) would go to Heaven if they passed away. Jeremiah 1 talks about people being sanctified before they're born, so they get a free pass.
Having said that, we're born into a world of original sin, so when you reach the age of reason, you should do away with parts of your reasoning and have faith. So basically, sinners aren't doomed from the start, but they doom themselves even though God knows they're doomed to begin with (if they were raised in a non Christian country or something).
And if there is a god, why would he wait millions of yours to gain some legitimate followers (the jews)?
Ah, but God was directly involved with all sorts of people before the Jews... right from the very beginning with Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, and down the list . Then he went off and destroyed everyone that was alive that didn't believe, because they really, really should have.
However, God did leave a rainbow declaring a new contract with man, which was kind've an interim contract that lasted until he came to earth as a human, which may not make a lot of sense, but God is into contractual obligation.
Why would the creator of the Universe be fine with the paleolithic people worshiping their native gods?
He's not fine with it! God was a jealous God since the Old Testament, and even God-as-Jesus told everyone "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So you either believe or spend an eternity in either the Lake of Fire or just without the presence of God at all (that part's not entirely clear).
Wouldn't he had made it so that everyone was a follower from the get-go?
That's probably how it was before Eve screwed it up for everyone.
I'm pretty sure there was no concept of worshiping Jehovah (the christian and jewish god) until sometime in 1400 BC.
Historically, you're probably right, but the Biblical timeline is much different from your secular history books.
/end Devil's advocate mode
-
That damn tower of babel!
But grim, I heard that kids would go to hell because their parents fucked to make them, and therefore we were all born in sin, aside from Jesus, who's mom didn't fuck to make him. Isn't that why kids go to jesus camp?
-
Thanks got answering Grim!
That damn tower of babel!
But grim, I heard that kids would go to hell because their parents fucked to make them, and therefore we were all born in sin, aside from Jesus, who's mom didn't fuck to make him. Isn't that why kids go to jesus camp?
Kids will only be doomed to hell from the get-go if their parents had them before marriage or didn't baptize them.
-
so baptizing cleans the fuck off of you? Is that why church is on sunday?
-
That damn tower of babel!
But grim, I heard that kids would go to hell because their parents fucked to make them, and therefore we were all born in sin, aside from Jesus, who's mom didn't fuck to make him. Isn't that why kids go to jesus camp?
I'm pretty sure the infant sanctity clause works as a suitable loophole to override the fucker/sinner going-to-Heaven requirements.
Oh, also "Grace" in some denominations can override that and all kinds of stuff, but even that gets changed up depending on the denomination.
The thing is, there are (at a minimum) 20,000+ denominations (including the big ones and sub ones), and possibly over 40,000+, so it's all about who you ask!
-
Grace is a pretty radical concept, even in this day and age. It goes against human nature and social order; imagine that concept 2000 years ago.
-
What exactly is grace?
-
What exactly is grace?
It's a cross between a promise of peace and a hall pass, or a get out of jail free card. It all depends on the denomination.
Grace is a pretty radical concept, even in this day and age. It goes against human nature and social order; imagine that concept 2000 years ago.
The Old Testament popularized the concept of "Grace" by name several times, but I think the idea predates Christianity by a few hundred years.
-
You are a computer guy right? How do you know so much random shit?
-
When I was a Christian, I wasn't flaming, but I was a geek about it. I sincerely debated on Christianity's behalf several times, and a lot of those debates got me thinking about things.
As far as other random things, that's just because I'm a spaz.
-
You're also the Grimcity.
-
It's a cross between a promise of peace and a hall pass, or a get out of jail free card. It all depends on the denomination.
Expand Quote
Grace is a pretty radical concept, even in this day and age. It goes against human nature and social order; imagine that concept 2000 years ago.
In my mind the concept of grace is kind of summed up in the "if someone strikes you on the left cheek turn and offer then the left" teaching, but the person being stricken is in a position of power.
Are you sure the Old Testament popularized grace? In my mind the Old Testament was God's law, an eye for an eye. Salvation through obedience to Jewish law.
Then with the New Testament Jesus brought a new law, the law of grace. Salvation through God's love, with Old Testament law taking a backseat.
I'm no biblical scholar, that's just how my understanding's constructed.
-
Oh yeah, starting in Genesis when God graces Noah and his family with the flood alert, Jonah being graced by getting vomited out of a "big fish," it's brought up by name in Psalms, and most prominently in Numbers:
6:24 - 26
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.
Would any actual Christians like to take over now?
-
hook, line, and sinker grim!!
-
Grim = best SLAP poster
when people show they have knowledge on both sides of an argument their opinion becomes of worth, grim you have a very worthy opinion, and no i dont mean that everything you say is opinion not fact, you know what i mean, your opinion and point of view and perspective is worthwhile and proves to based less on personal biased which always makes me enjoying discussing things with someone
-
Oh yeah, starting in Genesis when God graces Noah and his family with the flood alert, Jonah being graced by getting vomited out of a "big fish," it's brought up by name in Psalms, and most prominently in Numbers:
6:24 - 26
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.
Would any actual Christians like to take over now?
Sure there's some grace here and there but I really think the spirit of the Old Testament is Law. And your examples are flawed. Noah and his family were spared because they were righteous, the world was drowned because is was evil. That's not grace, that's vengence.
Noah was thrown overboard and spent 3 days in the fish 'cause he didn't go where God wanted him to go. God punished him and he complied. That's not really grace either.
The Old Testament is full of stories of God punishing folks. Cain, Sodom/Gommorah, The Egyptians/Pharroh, Moses, Sampson, Jacob...
I still think the spirit of the Old Testament is Law and the New Testament grace.
-
Sure, the OT is full of law, but you mentioned the concept of grace, so that's what I was addressing.
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Gen 6:8
-
Sure, the OT is full of law, but you mentioned the concept of grace, so that's what I was addressing.
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Gen 6:8
You're reverting to your fundamental Christian debate methods--pulling out isolated quotes and not looking at the big picture. I'm not going to google "God's law" to pull verses backing my views--I'm saying the spirit of the Old Testament is Law and I think it's pretty accurate.
And how did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Obeying the law. Why was the world drowned out? Not obeying. A key word search of the Old Test for the term "grace" isn't very convincing.
Contrast that with Jesus serving communion to Judas at the last supper after Judas sold him out. In my mind there's a pretty distinct paradigm shift from Old Test to New.
-
I never said there wasn't a paradigm shift, it was a whole new contract via God incarnate.
But yes, I reverted to fundamentalist debate tactics because there's no way to debate it otherwise (except for the Psalms and Numbers references). There's still plenty of grace in the OT, but like I said, the definition of grace is dependent on the denomination you're talking about. I gladly accept your interpretation just as much as mine. I'm definitely not going to defend something I don't believe in.
-
I never said there wasn't a paradigm shift, it was a whole new contract via God incarnate.
That's pretty much all I was trying to illustrate.
It's all good though--just healthy conversation. It's kind of cool because I was a lot more tentative in my thoughts about the Grace/Law in respect to the Jewish/Christian traditions but now in my mind it's a little more concrete.
But I don't think the throw a verse back and forth is the only way to debate theology. It's like rote memorization in academics; kind of shallow. In my mind the characters/stories/books of the bible hold more meaning than key words and verses.
I enjoy the debate but it's weird I'm here representing Christianity. I'm sure the majority of self proclaimed Christians would say I'm full of shit or lukewarm. I openly take and leave what I want from the religion.
-
Careful, if you're not hot or cold then Jesus will spit you out...
But yeah, I can relate. I was a geek about the intricacies, but for all intents I still did what I wanted to. I basically rationalized everything down for myself until I found that I had rationalized it away completely.
-
Careful, if you're not hot or cold then Jesus will spit you out...
Yeah that's a fanatical favorite for judging people. Isn't that from Revelations? Now there's a really practical book for life application.
It's funny 'cause the crowd who quotes that verse is the same crowd who focusses on the two or three verses about homosexuality and (what they claim applies to) abortion, but ignores issues of poverty and social justice. Which is such a recurring theme in the gospel.
Man, most people do what they want regardless of religion. Even the fanatics. Me too but I try to treat people right and want some higher ideal to work towards. But honestly Christianity just kind of grounds me, it's the world view I was raised with. I like the stories and ideals, the history and traditions. And I definitely believe in things unseen.
-
I can't knock that... the only time I get peeved is when people try to explain away reality (evolution, homosexuals are regular people, etc) by taking interpretations of their holy book and trying to deny things that we know to be factually accurate (or use scripture to justify hate and prejudice). Zealots in general (fanatics like you said)... there are plenty of atheist zealots as well, which I find more annoying than theistic ones.
One thing I find here (here in Louisiana, not on Slap) though is that my lack of belief is is seen as an affront or condemnation of Christianity. Some cats equate atheism with evil-puppy-killing-Satanloving when it's just so far from that.
-
Some cats equate atheism with evil-puppy-killing-Satanloving when it's just so far from that.
That's part of the brainwashing. The concept that one cannot be moral without religion is drilled into the head of followers. No religion= no morality to them.
It's kind of scary, you think that the people who believe that would be rapist murderers without the bible?
-
Yo dawg, r u down with ma stink chisel?
-
For me, there is truth in all religion, because it all comes from the same place. despite the bullshit details, all theologies share one common bond: the golden rule. treat others the way you would like to be treated. Either you're walking in love or you're not. dwelling on the fine details and getting into lame arguments debating unproveable nonsense will only separate human beings even further. if you actually "get it," wether you're a christian, atheist, muslim, or whatever, you will live all poeple as you love yourself.
-
Expand Quote
Some cats equate atheism with evil-puppy-killing-Satanloving when it's just so far from that.
That's part of the brainwashing. The concept that one cannot be moral without religion is drilled into the head of followers. No religion= no morality to them.
It's kind of scary, you think that the people who believe that would be rapist murderers without the bible?
That small mindedness transcends not just religion but almost all social fabrics/cultures. It's the whole with us/against us mentality that seems like a human trait/defense mechanism on some levels.
Personally I'd rather live in a neighborhood full of kind atheists than Christian zealots. And on the other end of the spectrum I'd take a bunch of ultra-conservatives who are good neighbors over self-righteous liberals (even though I'm pretty damn socially liberal).
But the brainwashing goes both ways--not all Christians are Pat Robertsons, think the world was created 4000 years ago, and vote Republican.