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General Discussion => WHATEVER => Topic started by: gutterhead. on March 02, 2012, 02:56:44 AM
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School's not really my thing, and two minimum wage jobs are not exactly what i want to be doing for the rest of my life. Just looking for some advice as to what exactly are the differences between the navy, marines, coast guard, etc. What the different benefits may be and so on. The thought has crossed my mind before, but i've only recently seriously started considering it. advice?
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i guess HATE! is your man on this.
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(http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/_/_jello_biafra-die_for_oil._sucker.jpg)
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If those are the only reasons you would join the forces, dont bother.
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also, consider some not-so-mainstream careers in there:
(http://www.challengecoinusa.com/Pictures/MilitarySpouse1.jpg)
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(http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/_/_jello_biafra-die_for_oil._sucker.jpg)
pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
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"Hey, I was just following orders!"
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"Hey, I was just following orders!"
Yeah killing is selfless so long as it was an order and not a decision of your own. Thank you for clarifying that Sleazy ::)
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Don't join the navy. I'm about to get out in a year and I can't really recommend it. I got what I wanted out of it, but I also had some of the worst experience with people. HATE! pretty much nailed it although I'd make the Air Farce my first choice since they have much better quality of life since they're funded more and have less people to spend their funds on. Their bases are much nicer and they get paid for some ridiculous things.
One of my friends in the navy was deployed to Iraq and was talking with an airman there. The airman was staying in navy officers quarter's since they didn't have air force quarters built. Because they weren't up to the air force standard, the airman was receiving an additional $300 a month. My buddy was living in a shithole so he was pretty hateful toward that guy and all air force for the rest of his deployment.
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In 09 i tried joining the Navy. Hate was cool and gave me the same advice he is giving you.
I was down and out, didn't want to go back to school, and couldn't think of a better way to get out of my hometown. So i talked to the recruiter, let him blow smoke up my ass, and knew that i'd hate it but figured that i could travel a bit and make some money. I waited about 9 months before i was able to ship to RTC (recruit training center) and pretty much just fucked off in the meantime. Quit my job, got drunk, got fatter, didn't skate much, and bounced between knowing that i was making a mistake and saying "fuck it, there's no other choice." It's funny that someone posted that Die For Oil, Suckers image because i felt so disheartened and traitorous to my beliefs that i threw away years worth of old punk t shirts, records, and zines.
Most of the family was pretty hyped for me. Had a big party 3 days before i was set to ship to RTC, and the one dude i invited that i'd met through pre RTC training robbed my blind of all the $/cards people left me as a departing gift... this really set the tone.
As soon as i stepped off the bus at Great Lakes i knew that i was in for it. The first couple of weeks weren't bad, well they were hell, but i just kept doing it. Then it hit a point one day when a Senior Chief Petty Officer started talking about his family in Japan. Then he started talking about FC men firing on Haji's and killing their babies to prevent the seeds from growing. I decided at that point to get the fuck out. It took another two weeks to figure it out. I tried going legit and revealed my falsified medical history. This didn't work and would've taken months. I then told one of the Petty Officers that i was feeling anxious because i used to use Xanax. He was actually really cool and i almost felt bad about my deception, but i got sent to the REU (recruit evaluation unit) where i filled out some questionnaires and met with a social worker. I then went on a rampage. I told em i'd been abused as a child, tried to off myself, that i'd rather fight Americans than others, had a drug habit, etc. I then truthfully revealed the times that i've eaten L and mushrooms. this was my instant out. I got set up with a Dr and took a personality test, which surprisingly showed no personality disorders (the easiest way for commanders to get people out of service). the Doc told me that although i had a surprising history and no personality disorders my use of psychedelics automatically barred me from military service. I got sent back to the Ship (recruit barracks) and the leaders tried to keep me from talking with anyone. I'd been a model recruit most of the time and they didn't want anyone to take the same path i had. They started yelling shit like "don't kill yourself, faggot" and "hope you cut your wrists right this time." Either way i made it my mission to inform as many people as possible about what REU is, where it is, and what to say. Fuck the Navy. A few dudes that i talked to go themselves out too.
After this, i spent a month in Ship 5. we were all 2311 medical/psychiatric SEPS. this month was intense. There were 70 of us in a room with whited out windows, 2 TVs, and were awake from 7am-10pm. Windows were whited out, red lights stayed on at night, and everyone was ready to fight. Shit was like jail. Everyone playing spades and kings. white dudes and black dudes getting on each others nerves. We had to go to meetings on future careers most days where we were told that we'd never get a job, even at McDonalds because our history follows us.... It was quite depressing to say the least. Either way, we got out.
Now, 3 years later. This hasn't followed me anywhere. I'm finishing my degree in 2 months. I've gotten paid to travel and study in Cambodia and it's looking like i'll be sent back there again. I've gotten in great shape, stayed clean, and it's all been on my own terms. There hasn't been anyone telling me what or how to live me life. I'm loving it.
I write all of this because there are FAR more options than those that might first meet the eye.
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(http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/_/_jello_biafra-die_for_oil._sucker.jpg)
pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
hey, man, i get what you're saying, but this is a volunteer military. The vast majority of those involved have joined following US entrance to our current wars. Either way, i don't think that "selfless" is being used in the right context. People join the military because it's a job. They take risks to get that small paycheck. In no way am i saying that i'm going to knock on someone for joining, although i probably should, because ultimately, joining the military is a choice. Those who sign on know full well that they are supporting a mechanism of death. There are no viable arguments, outside military industrial complex contracting and oil wells, supporting occupation of the middle east.
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http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03/01/call-of-apathy-violent-young-men-and-our-place-in-war/ (http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03/01/call-of-apathy-violent-young-men-and-our-place-in-war/)
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(http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/_/_jello_biafra-die_for_oil._sucker.jpg)
pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.
Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.
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HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude weighing out his options.
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Not going to comment on what others have said, but I'm in the middle of the enlistment process right now.
Couldn't afford school anymore, and I'm not down to fuck myself into debt.
My parents have been in and still work around military (I just moved to Richmond from Okinawa last week because of a government job),.
Air Force was really the only option for me. I lived on a Marine base and worked with some guys there and they were miserable.
Looking back I should have tried to do ROTC, but I had already stopped going to class at that point.
I don't know what you are trying to get a job in, but all my choices are stuff where there is a market outside of the military.
Getting some school paid for and job training is really the only reason I'm joining. If I could have stayed where I was, I would have.
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HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude loser weighing out his options.
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Since dudes talk about doucebags, they exist everywhere. Not just in the Army or Navy. And you'll get to know at least one douche, no matter where you end up.
I don't really have a good grasp on what it's like in the US, but from the sound of it, pick something that could translate into a civilian job, at least if you aren't in it to fuck shit up and protecting the freedom of those who do not deserve it.
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HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude loser weighing out his options.
Good one..?
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(http://www.outlookskates.com/JFAstickerMAIN.jpg)
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HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude loser weighing out his options.
No one else is saying it, so I will. You're a huge piece of shit when you do something like this. He's a guy who is unhappy with his current situation and asking a question. It's too bad he doesn't have it all fucking figured out like you, you smug prick.
Agreed.
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I think if you post here you'd probably hate the military life. Too much uniformity. Corporate America can be like that, way way lesser scale. Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.
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all this tough talk got me scared of the internet
fucking kooks, show some respect. there are numerous people in this thread who have served this country or are thinking about serving and regardless of what conflicts we get in, these guys take the risk that we wont for shit pay in shit working environments. the virtue of the conflict is not something they get to choose. they are no more or less pios than those who fought and died in any other conflict in history, surely you can't think that every solider ever was a souless piece of human scum. get over yourselves and show some respect for christ sakes. i'd rather drink a beer with a guy like hate than sideline haters talking shit on something that they wouldn't have the balls to do.
and get out of here with that horrors of war stuff. innocents get killed in every conflict. if we get invaded one day, would you feel the same way or should we just bow out?
i in no way support any of post wwII conflicts. i protested both iraq wars. it's all a bunch of imperialist BS. but that doesn't mean that i have to be a dick to those who serve. those guys are doing the worst job in the world, cut them some slack and stop trolling their thread.
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HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude loser weighing out his options.
No one else is saying it, so I will. You're a huge piece of shit when you do something like this. He's a guy who is unhappy with his current situation and asking a question. It's too bad he doesn't have it all fucking figured out like you, you smug prick.
I may be a huge prick, but I don't kill people for money. I have a real problem with people who sign up for wars because they want an easy paycheck. And no I don't have it all figured out, but at least I've got some principles.
By the way I have a hard time respecting a guy who says death is cheapened for him. Just because you have a shitty job doesn't mean you need to become a shitty person...
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all this tough talk got me scared of the internet
fucking kooks, show some respect. there are numerous people in this thread who have served this country or are thinking about serving and regardless of what conflicts we get in, these guys take the risk that we wont for shit pay in shit working environments. the virtue of the conflict is not something they get to choose. they are no more or less pios than those who fought and died in any other conflict in history, surely you can't think that every solider ever was a souless piece of human scum. get over yourselves and show some respect for christ sakes. i'd rather drink a beer with a guy like hate than sideline haters talking shit on something that they wouldn't have the balls to do.
and get out of here with that horrors of war stuff. innocents get killed in every conflict. if we get invaded one day, would you feel the same way or should we just bow out?
i in no way support any of post wwII conflicts. i protested both iraq wars. it's all a bunch of imperialist BS. but that doesn't mean that i have to be a dick to those who serve. those guys are doing the worst job in the world, cut them some slack and stop trolling their thread.
i don't think you know what the word complicity means
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Yea, that's what I thought. You know I do respect that you're at least honest about your experiences, but instead of preaching a message of apathy you could maybe use what you've learned to try and do some good with it. Until then, don't act like your horse is any higher than mine.
At the end of the day, at worst I'm an asshole on the internet. But I'm not a guy who's killed innocent people because I wanted benefits and career options.
Expecting to get banned, but don't really care.
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also, to the op, why not go to trade school? be a plumber, builder, electrician etc... i would way rather do that than be in the armed forces.
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I made that thread because I got bit by a dog and thought it'd be funny to see people's reactions. Obviously people who kill animals are despicable, but I also think it's pretty fucked up to kill human beings as well.
The difference is, no one is going around killing dogs in real life, but people are murdered, brutalized, blown apart and treated like their lives are worthless every day in these wars.
Whatever though, I don't even know what the point of this discussion is anymore, other than I'm not going to kiss people's asses for participating in an industry of death and greed like Sleazy expects me to.
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Yea, that's what I thought. You know I do respect that you're at least honest about your experiences, but instead of preaching a message of apathy you could maybe use what you've learned to try and do some good with it. Until then, don't act like your horse is any higher than mine.
At the end of the day, at worst I'm an asshole on the internet. But I'm not a guy who's killed innocent people because I wanted benefits and career options.
Expecting to get banned, but don't really care, because i'll just make another account.
fixed.
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HATE!, layzieyez, thanks for some real advice, sounds like ill be doing some research on the air force and coast guard in the next couple weeks. And steve that sounds fucking horrible. As for everyone else up in this thread, meh. I'm just a dude loser weighing out his options.
No one else is saying it, so I will. You're a huge piece of shit when you do something like this. He's a guy who is unhappy with his current situation and asking a question. It's too bad he doesn't have it all fucking figured out like you, you smug prick.
I may be a huge prick, but I don't kill people for money. I have a real problem with people who sign up for wars because they want an easy paycheck. And no I don't have it all figured out, but at least I've got some principles.
By the way I have a hard time respecting a guy who says death is cheapened for him. Just because you have a shitty job doesn't mean you need to become a shitty person...
Did you stick your tampon farther than you would have liked and now you can't get it out? You are a huge pile.
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I made that thread because I got bit by a dog and thought it'd be funny to see people's reactions. Obviously people who kill animals are despicable, but I also think it's pretty fucked up to kill human beings as well.
The difference is, no one is going around killing dogs in real life, but people are murdered, brutalized, blown apart and treated like their lives are worthless every day in these wars.
Whatever though, I don't even know what the point of this discussion is anymore, other than I'm not going to kiss people's asses for participating in an industry of death and greed like Sleazy expects me to.
What are you talking about?
Also, you're being quite a piece of shit.
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If you think being around death constantly doesn't make it less impactful, well, you obviously haven't been around it very much. Nobody is mentally strong enough to insulate their psyche from the effects of war, which is a scenario that is in most cases more horrible and emotionally deadening than any civilian can imagine. It's not an "easy paycheck" as you so eloquently put it Kab, and your opinions on this matter make you sound like a sheltered, self-righteous and infantile little troll of a human, much like all of your other posts, incidentally.
On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.
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I just deleted a whole lot of shit that I was gonna post, but I'll just say back in '94 I tried to get into the Army after 2 1/2 years of an ROTC like program housed under the Explorer Scouts (giving me a bump to PFC) and not getting in just fucked with me soooo bad. I had a documented back injury but I never brought it up, and it never came up until the last/worst possible second. I used to kick ass at all the PT shit, I really just wanted to serve... never once thought about killing another person.
I wound up going to college, doing the private sector IT thing for a number of years, and now get to serve my state during my day job and do emergency communications for our Governor's office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (GOHSEP, civilian employee).
I had actually looked at joining the Reserves or the Guard last year, but it would have put a major strain on the office I work for and my wife wasn't really feeling it. Not to mention, the job I was looking at would have had me in training for way too long. I dunno, I just always appreciated the Army but not in terms of machismo or because of any bloodlust.
Also, I know HATE and he's only tried to stab me in the face four or maybe five times the last weekend we hung out. Seriously though, he's not exactly your image of conformity, nor is he a meathead or anything like that.
Just don't join the Marines. Those haircuts are permanent.
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Little too much hate talk to get some clear points in here.
Anyway my dad was in Desert Storm as a medic and also a mechanic later on. He was in Kuwait and basically never saw "combat" but was on the line fixing, working, blah blah. While mentally he isnt messed up, his hearing got wrecked from being close to the shelling of a city, that and hes had some minute health affects from the drugs they tried and did use on him and the rest of the guinea pigs. Thank god he never had the, i cnat recall the real bad pill or watever they were testing, he got out of it somehow. Point being there are other effects to weigh other than just the toll of death, war, and mental stuff.
My two friends also recruited to the national guard and are going into mechanic units and stuff like that, which is ironic becus they joined primarily becus school wasnt shapin up for them and i dont think they see the possibility of being sent over like my dad wa. He started as national guard.
Just because ur not aiming for combat doesnt mean u wont see it. In the armys eye ur just another willing body.
Needless to say, i wont be following in my dads steps, but if i were to sugest anything i would say look into coast guard or even, if u live by the water, parks or wildlife. In florida my dads friend works for the state patrolling the rivers and coast on the states gas money in their boats... that was my dads oher choice before he stupidly joined up.
Dont make any hasty decisions.
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If you think being around death constantly doesn't make it less impactful, well, you obviously haven't been around it very much. Nobody is mentally strong enough to insulate their psyche from the effects of war, which is a scenario that is in most cases more horrible and emotionally deadening than any civilian can imagine. It's not an "easy paycheck" as you so eloquently put it Kab, and your opinions on this matter make you sound like a sheltered, self-righteous and infantile little troll of a human, much like all of your other posts, incidentally.
On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.
really good post.
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Do you like PTSD and a higher likelyhood of unemployment than the general population? If so, join the armed forces. If not, you might want to consider something else. And if you didn't like your teachers calling home when you didn't do your homework, wait until you see what a drill sargent does when you fuck up.
Sleazy- the op is saying he is considering joining the armed forces. There is nothing wrong with reminding him of the fact that every war the U.S. has been in since 1865 has related to imperialism, and that we just got out of one war for oil and are about to jump into another one. The odds are very high that if he does see combat, it will be for corporate profit, not the security of the nation. That is a legitimate thing to consider when considering signing your life away. It may be noble to die in defense of your country, but it definitely isn't to die in defense of profits, and he might be doing that.
And your argument only flies with already enlisted soldiers. Sure, a guy who enlisted in 2000 can say "I don't choose the wars, I just fight them" to defend his service in Iraq, but if you are joining a volunteer army after the war has been declared or when the writing on the wall is there that it will happen, then you ARE choosing the war. You are saying "You know that mission you are going on to take over a nation to steal its resources? I want in."
Its like the old saying goes: "What if they held a war, and nobody came?" Obviously that will never happen, but it illustrates the point that when you join the armed forces, you are supporting the war machine, because they can't do it without willing soldiers.
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(http://moviereviewh2one2.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/abu-ghraib-tm.jpg?w=497)
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Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.
I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.
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I think statistically the rate of unemployment is higher amongst veterans, but those numbers are skewed by people with severe deformities or psychological issues from being in combat, which obviously make it harder to fit back into the workforce.
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yeah, higher rate of unemployment. I wouldn't say that's a skewed statistic in that being in war does that, and if he joins that could be him. You definitely can pick up skills, though from what I hear a lot of people don't end up getting the training recruiters often promise.
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Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.
I do. I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business. Plumbing is an example. Or he could end up as a general contractor. You do not need college for either.
Do you know what a capital investment implies?
Trying to help the op...
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On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.
there's nothing kneekjerk about my feelings, so your pejorative is misplaced. my feeling is simply that holding enlisted men accountable for the types of conflicts we get in is misplaced. if you feel that we are in the wrong conflicts then it's the civilians that are the problem not the people who enlist. and i find it odd that you reference nationalism in your post but then convieniently ignore it when you are talking about the nobility of why people serve. sure there are people who don't have respectful motivations but this country is full of people who actually want to serve, people with familys that are millitary, etc... i don't see how someone who has no other options (or at least feels that way) or that comes from a patriotic, nationlistic background or is a 3rd generation enlisted man is open for scrutiny. but that's just my position because I don't like feeling like a judgemental asshole, others see it differently.
and then my previous point was slightly exagerated because i'd argue that two recent conflict at least started with non-imperialist goals, afganistan and lybia. you got no respect for people who enlisted wanting to go to afganistan after 911 or people who help oust gaddafi? whats the problem with that motivator? obviously, nobility could be found if you looked even if it isn't the dominate motivator so it's hard to take serious positions that ignore that obvious fact.
there are clearly exceptions going both ways and i don't try to deny that war hungry meat heads exist.
my point instead is that i don't focus on the attrocities of war as war is part of the human condition and it is what it always has been and what it will always be. it's obviously a horrible and unavoidable part of human existence. if we want to try and decrease the scope of war i feel there are much better places to put that energy than taking cheap shots at enlisted men on the internet which is all this thread trolls are accomplishing. if you really feel so strongly then do like i did and get out in the real world and do something about it. join or start an organization, organize or participate in protest, ect... we live in a democracy (or oligarchy from your point of view) and we can sway things if we organize. but that hasn't happened. it's us, not the service men, that are the ones that are unable to stop the war machine. they are just the ones that sign up to experience the attrocities first hand which as you are aware, is not an enjoyable experience for the majority of them.
i guess mostly i'm just curious if it's internet courage that people are showing here or if people would actually show this kind of disrespect to a persons face. like would you guys actually act like a dick to hate in person if you met him at a skatepark? that just seems fucked to me. it's the same kind of misplaced, dick move that protestors at abortion clinics are pulling.
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(http://www.outlookskates.com/JFAstickerMAIN.jpg)
You want to hear the funniest part about you posting this image?
Brian Brannon, the lead singer of that band is a United States Navy Reservist. He is a chief (E-7). He has the same rating (MOS) that I have. I am a mass communication specialist (public affairs/photojournalist). Not everyone is an ignorant ass (even if those individuals exist). Some of us are pretty damned cool and I am so proud to be a part of the same organization as that man.
Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA. My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.
I rose up the ranks in the navy faster than most people experience because I was college educated going enlisted (I didn't want to obligate myself to 10 years if I joined as an officer). After bootcamp, I was promoted to E-4 since I graduated from my specialty school at the top of my class as the honor grad, and I made E-5 six months after being promoted to E-4 after scoring so high on my advancement exam. So, in less than a year in the fleet, I was the equivalent of a sergeant.
I never drank the kool aid and I have consistently taken on some of the most difficult jobs working solo where the navy would have needed at least 3-5 sailors to achieve the amount of efficiency and success at those jobs. I have more than earned my pay and then some.
Because I am so driven, the navy didn't blink at spending over $50,000 on making me better at what I do with additional schooling. The double edge sword is since I am so capable, I know I don't need to stay in the navy to be successful. I value the health of my wife and kids (mental and physical) and my time too much to spend my time away from them anymore. It is too much to ask of them to deal with the stress of my absence. I will take all the skills and drive that I have and work at what I love doing exactly my way instead of how someone ranking above me dictates.
Your mileage will vary with military service. I made the most of the opportunity. If you choose to do it, don't waste it. Don't be a waste of taxpayer money. I have an absolute hate for those individuals who aren't earning their pay and thankfully, they are getting cut from the ranks.
I hope my testimonial helps in your decision making.
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Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.
I do. I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business. Plumbing is an example. Or he could end up as a general contractor. You do not need college for either.
Do you know what a capital investment implies?
Trying to help the op...
So you're telling me that you could start a business without investing any money in it? Show me your business model because I'm fucking in!!
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Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.
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Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.
I do. I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business. Plumbing is an example. Or he could end up as a general contractor. You do not need college for either.
Do you know what a capital investment implies?
Trying to help the op...
hahaha.
Oh, and if you want to be a certified contractor or plumber you do need job training, which is intellectual capital.
If he runs the business, eventually he'll need either a secretary or workers, which is human capital.
He's not going to be walking into houses and using his bare hands to unclog toilets so he'll need tools, which are also a form of capital.
Let's also not forget the monetary opportunity cost of the start of the business, where you make little money and can't really work another job to supplement income as you get your business going and build a customer base.
I swear to god in another recent thread this fucking moron claimed nobody but him understands economics.
Few plays this "above slap" act and always fails.
Its hillarious.
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Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.? My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.
pretty god damn noble if you ask me.
looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.
go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.
Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.
i'm pretty sure that in this imaginary utopia we'd get invaded. your a history teacher, point to one example in history of this? i'm not saying i don't feel the vibe
Imagine Live - John Lennon - 72 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0Eyw3l3XM#)
i'm just saying it's fantasy.
it's like vegiterians getting pissed at meat eaters. there's two problems with that. one, people are going to still choose to eat meat so get over yourself. two, even if everyone quit, we'd still kill animals due to limited resources. it's again a fantasy that strives for an imaginary utopian goal that is unachievable. i'm not saying these ideas don't have good natured premises, it's just they ignore the practicle realities of the world we live in and i feel we'd be better served trying to make sure that animals get the best quailty of life available and that wars are fought for good reasons than trying to strive for unachievable perfection. you might sell cage free to the masses, you won't sell tofu.
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"Nationalism is the last shelter of the fraudsters."
On other news... If they want to serve their country they should organise a revolution against governments and the capital...
What patriotism stands for??? Have you ever thought??? What the fuck patriotism means when politicians spit it out??? For me the most patriotic thing would be a class war and not a war about oil or a war to be in control of another country (Libya). Wars America does are wars about profit. NO NO my friend its not only the oil or power. Its also stealing tax payer money and giving them to their friends, the Industrialists of war for weapons and other shit. And they not only steal their money but also their kids' lives by sending them to war and disillusioning them that they serve the country while they are serving THE CAPITAL.
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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.
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wanted to point out also that if your unsure at all go talk to someone who has seen firsthand the senseless killings, violence, or civilian deaths and talk to the ones who have had their lives changed because of it. Theres nothing gonna change a stubborn person more than either a firsthand experience or a heart to heart with someone who has had one.
Also take a look at the case of the guy who leaked the apache civilian mess in afghan or iraq and is now going to rot in prison or (i dont think itll go over) be executed for standing up and wanting the public to see the ineffectiveness and sloppy job that his own men were witnessing and/or a part of.
Sidenote- I dont know about any of you, and i dont mean to stir up hate, but does anyone else not share the whole "thank your for your service, thanks for serving our country, blah blah" feeling?
I mean dont misquote me, i am happy that men and women are getting home safe and were not killed, but for everyone 1 that comes home safe there has to be atleast 2 or 3 that've had their lives changed from wounds or something. The whole parade thing goes hand in hand also, i really dont FEEL any safer for having these soldiers fight for oil or regime changes, or experience any more FREEDOM for having them fight. In my opinion, the average cop is doing more to protect me and my family by keeping drug addicts away from the public or drunk drivers off the road. The police deserve more parades than any military imo.
I just feel like the whole SERVE your country feeling doesnt and shouldnt be attached to a war that is an AGGRESSIVE, preemptive war. Peoples idea of what a "noble" war, not there is really is one, has been dramatically changed.
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Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.? My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.
pretty god damn noble if you ask me.
looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.
go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.
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Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.
i'm pretty sure that in this imaginary utopia we'd get invaded. your a history teacher, point to one example in history of this? i'm not saying i don't feel the vibe
Imagine Live - John Lennon - 72 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0Eyw3l3XM#)
i'm just saying it's fantasy.
it's like vegiterians getting pissed at meat eaters. there's two problems with that. one, people are going to still choose to eat meat so get over yourself. two, even if everyone quit, we'd still kill animals due to limited resources. it's again a fantasy that strives for an imaginary utopian goal that is unachievable. i'm not saying these ideas don't have good natured premises, it's just they ignore the practicle realities of the world we live in and i feel we'd be better served trying to make sure that animals get the best quailty of life available and that wars are fought for good reasons than trying to strive for unachievable perfection. you might sell cage free to the masses, you won't sell tofu.
You are a fucking idiot and that's clearly a strawman. The argument at the beginning was are people who volunteer for the army responsible for their role in unjust wars. My answer was yes, if they know what actions are taking place. I extended the metaphor to point out that soldiers do play a vital role in war, because without them, there would be no ability to fight the wars.
But in terms of your apparent argument that drawing down our military would do any sort of harm- Do you seriously think that Iraq, Afghanistan, our interventions in South America, or our interventions in South East Asia have made us safer? That's all we've done with the military over the past 50 years. That's what they recruit for. Not because we don't have enough soldiers to guard our borders. We have far more than enough for that.
How did Japan do after they dismantled their imperial army? How about Germany? Both seem to be fine and engaged in far less wars then they used to.
What about nations without imperial interests in the first place? Switzerland is the classic example. Hitler didn't even try to invade them in World War II and that was fucking Hitler! They had an army, but its role was nothing like the armed forces we have now. We need something more like that.
The actions of our armed forces in this imperialist mode have done nothing but made us less safe. There is no other logical conclusion. The media is owned by the military industrial complex and will give you all these "dulce decorum est pro patria mori" lies about our military actions, but its imperialist bullshit at this point, no better than any other imperial army in history. Oh, and its bankrupting us too, so that's fucking awesome.
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Oh, and joining an imperial army for money or benefits isn't noble, it just means that if somebody pays you enough, you'll become a killer.
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The answer is simple kill everyone all over the planet all at once problem solved.
For once, I agree with you.
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Why does reading this thread make me glad most here are not enlisted?
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I'm not sure. What exactly are you implying?
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I guess he means we're not "brave" or "patriotic" enough, something like that.
Sleazy, you're attributing a bunch of things to me that I never even said. I never directly insulted or criticized individual servicemen for their choices; I actually have a lot of sympathy for those people who are forced into service due to lack of opportunity, or through family pressure or misguided patriotism. I can totally understand why people would do that, and I know that not everyone shares my beliefs. Rejecting the party line on "supporting the troops" is not always about being an asshole, it's about being rational. You're insisting that holding anything but a romanticized, ultra-positive view of military service is an insult to the troops, but HATE evidently feels the exact opposite as someone who should know better than most about the depraved pointlessness of recent military conflicts.
Lazyiez should feel proud about lifting his family out of poverty and improving himself in the process, but that is only one facet of military service; the other is to go out and kill or be killed in an imperialistic chess match that benefits nobody but the power elite of the victorious party. That is the uncomfortable truth that people will always attempt to cover up with rose-tinted, nationalist rhetoric, and I'm not going to ignore it just because you think it might hurt some people's feelings.
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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.
It was posted at the beginning of this thread.
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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.
I am not familiar with the article you're talking about. Link?
dlx111- you're hitting nothing but net. I am extremely uncomfortable with the over-gratitude. I mean, I don't tell people to shut up or anything, that would be stupid and counterproductive. I already feel weird hearing it and why should I knock someone for thinking they're doing a nice thing. But yes, it IS overdone and I feel that there are a lot of soldiers that abuse it too- I've even seen military spouses get pissed off when a business doesn't offer a military discount. That blows my mind. The main reason why it's so awkward is that I am not fighting for any American's freedom. I am fighting for fucking Afghanistan's and that kills me. I have zero personal interest vested in the well being of that country. I don't care if they move into the 21st century or the 11th century- they don't even care. I don't like seeing schools built over there that are immediately taken over by the Taliban, I don't care to teach their military anything and I don't really care what their form of government is. We aren't fighting terrorism, we're trying to change a culture and I just disagree with that. If you're going to fight a war- it should be to earn something, right? Well, we don't even have a hand in the Aynak mine that was recently discovered that the Afghans don't have the means to mine (China took that one somehow and I am still not exactly clear on how they did it.) I've been deployed for nearly half the 9 years I've been in and it hasn't done a single good thing for my country.
I am going to disagree with you (sorta) on one point, dlx111. It's walking on thin ice to ask people about death they've experienced. If it comes up, that is ok, but to outright ask someone is a little weird. You don't know how that person experienced it and it's just sort of impolite because that person may have internalized a lot. I've never personally killed someone and while I have had friends who have died, I've never personally seen one their bodies. I've seen a few others and while I wouldn't say they "haunt" me or anything, it's still not a topic that is great to talk about. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, I am just saying it's dicey and it should be done in a polite way. I have a pretty thick skin and could give a shit what the majority of people think about me, but that's not always the case for others.
ya, lol, i was in no way suggesting going up to someone and asking if theyve killed someone. that would be disrespectful and all sorts. And i actually rad about that mine thing, unbelievably, in Forbes magazine! They were talking about it like it was some great business opportunity, and were literally ADVOCATING taking these peoples land, giving them below minimal pay for working in ridiculous conditions, and on top of that were acting like it was just another investment!! That story just blew mind as far as outright disrespect for a people whose country your trying to help and bring freedom to, and the only thing you can think of is STRIPPING THEIR LAND OF RESOURCES! Heres an idea, how bout let an afghan entrepreneur start a company with the help of maybe some caring American business men, and let the people see what kind of potential a blooming country can have!
In my opinion, one of the only ways to get some real progress over there, is for passionate individuals to show those people dignity and love and help them to make a living for themselves.
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Threads - Nuclear War, 1984 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023790698427111488)
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Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.? My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.
pretty god damn noble if you ask me.
looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.
go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.
I must admit I feel sincerely sorry for anyone viewing it this way. I don't wish to look down on anyone, it just makes me feel sorry.
Clearly you have been brought up in culture that embraces and glorifies these efforts, rather than you respecting them as a result of your own consideration. I don't see it much different than North Koreans worshipping their almighty leader only because that is what they are being taught all their lives, only the scale of things is different.
Living halfway across the world, while our culture deeply respects the efforts of our very few veterans still standing, the desire to have more is nonexistent.
Both of my grandfathers were closely affected by the WWII, one having to flee his home at a young age never to return, and the other fighting the war at my age. Neither of them ever said a single word of those times, not to us, not to their children, not even to their spouses. The one who fought the war asked my father, if he ever in is old age would begin telling stories of those times, to smash him out cold.
I for one don't understand the references to paying your debt to a country by fighting a war that clearly has no threat to its livelyhood or safety. At best it's to calm down the deliberately built paranoia that "they're coming", or to underline the self-acclaimed superiority.
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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.
I am not familiar with the article you're talking about. Link?
dlx111- you're hitting nothing but net. I am extremely uncomfortable with the over-gratitude. I mean, I don't tell people to shut up or anything, that would be stupid and counterproductive. I already feel weird hearing it and why should I knock someone for thinking they're doing a nice thing. But yes, it IS overdone and I feel that there are a lot of soldiers that abuse it too- I've even seen military spouses get pissed off when a business doesn't offer a military discount. That blows my mind. The main reason why it's so awkward is that I am not fighting for any American's freedom. I am fighting for fucking Afghanistan's and that kills me. I have zero personal interest vested in the well being of that country. I don't care if they move into the 21st century or the 11th century- they don't even care. I don't like seeing schools built over there that are immediately taken over by the Taliban, I don't care to teach their military anything and I don't really care what their form of government is. We aren't fighting terrorism, we're trying to change a culture and I just disagree with that. If you're going to fight a war- it should be to earn something, right? Well, we don't even have a hand in the Aynak mine that was recently discovered that the Afghans don't have the means to mine (China took that one somehow and I am still not exactly clear on how they did it.) I've been deployed for nearly half the 9 years I've been in and it hasn't done a single good thing for my country.
I am going to disagree with you (sorta) on one point, dlx111. It's walking on thin ice to ask people about death they've experienced. If it comes up, that is ok, but to outright ask someone is a little weird. You don't know how that person experienced it and it's just sort of impolite because that person may have internalized a lot. I've never personally killed someone and while I have had friends who have died, I've never personally seen one their bodies. I've seen a few others and while I wouldn't say they "haunt" me or anything, it's still not a topic that is great to talk about. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, I am just saying it's dicey and it should be done in a polite way. I have a pretty thick skin and could give a shit what the majority of people think about me, but that's not always the case for others.
In my opinion, one of the only ways to get some real progress over there, is for passionate individuals to show those people dignity and love and help them to make a living for themselves.
I know all about the Aynak mine. It was in my province in Afghanistan and people would ask about it from time to time. I think the reason why we were so quick to want to mine it and take it for what it was worth was twofold. One- greed, duh. Two- and I think it's obvious, but we were/are getting desperate to walk out of there with SOMETHING. We have fucking zero to show for this war except a fat ass receipt.
Your second idea as to what to do with it is nice, yet 100$ impossible. I am saying this with firsthand knowledge of a very wide variety of Afghans. I've been around high military officials and politicians and I've been around your ragged low level farmer. The problem is that the country and the culture is inherently corrupt. Corruption is part of their identity. The more well to do are where they are because they were born into it, have no problem totally fucking someone over and have their hand out while their other hand is in their neighbor's pocket. And the neighbor doesn't give a shit. I remember asking a dude about what went down and what his reaction was when the Taliban would ride their motorcycles into his village, demand supplies, sometimes kick people out of their home and take it over or whatever. His response was that that was how life was and that he would just move in with family. He wouldn't stand up for himself because he didn't want to get fucked up and because that was the way shit was. Fucking Karzai's brother is a huge drug kingpin who is more or less a gangster. Hmmm, I wonder how Karzai got in charge? Because he is from an affluent family that is known. How do you make money in Afghanistan? Drugs. Corruption. It's so fucked up and backwards and they are fine with that. How do they know that the grass is greener on the other side if they don't even know that the other side exists? You can't change culture overnight, it takes decades.
Truancy- I read the article, and while I can't 100% identify with it because I am not in a Combat Arms job- I did roll out with them regularly in Iraq (I basically had a desk/liason type job in Afghanistan.) I was just south of Sadr City in Eastern Baghdad around the same time that the author of that article was. I agree with him- it does take a specific breed of human to do what they do, but I think he wrote off the after effects of joking about it a little too simply. There are a lot more complexities in there. Some make jokes to deal with the stress of what they've seen, some turn to substance, some go all the way and just more or less embrace that savage side. I make jokes when I am stressed. My first time outside the wire, I was hit with an IED that was emplaced at a Police checkpoint because the cops were all paid off by Jaysh al-Mahdi (Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army that was on the news all the time.) It ended in a full on stand off with guns drawn because they were offended when we suggested that someone on duty may have allowed the shit to happen. These were dudes that we were training every day. I actually could have potentially met and ate with my killer. That's fucking heavy. The way I dealt with that was making jokes. We played, "Would you rather?" and tried to not think about it.
I don't know if I have PTSD. It's not as easy to diagnose as the media makes it sound. I fucking swear that they make it sound like you can say, "Well, he saw some shit, he's fucked up." Then what? An arsenal of pills that may or may not solve the problem? I don't have a problem saying that I am currently seeing a counselor and have been for awhile. My third deployment had some pretty horrible shit happen to me. I didn't get hurt while I was over there or see anything that I couldn't deal with, but without getting into it, I'll just say that when I left I had a home and a wife and when I came back, I literally had nothing except my clothing and most of my record collection. I literally had nothing else. I had a very, VERY dark year after that. Then I slowly started to turn things around. I still see the counselor even though I am pretty happy. I still have some issues and I am still dealing with it, but I think I am ok. I don't care if Kab thinks I kill people for money. I don't care if people view me as a cog in a war machine- I mean if that's what you want to call it, then yeah, I am, but at the same time, that's why I am getting out, because I have my own problems with that. I know I am walking into a fragile economy and that I could retire in 11 years, but it's just not worth it to me. I'm over it.
Fuck! Y'all are dragging some shit out! I hope this helps others who are curious and may not be talking out (fucking lurkers!) The author of that article was DEAD on- there is no stereotype of a soldier. I mean, Jesus, I am pretty left wing, a vegetarian with a soft spot for animals and the environment, and I do not have or support any belief system in a higher power whatsoever. On that alone, I am the opposite of the stereotype. Anyway- this has been an interesting thread to say the least!
good post. thanks for getting on this level. i think that you are answering questions that many people in the US have and are generally unable to find answers to.
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i definitely learned a lot from this thread. i can't say how appreciative and fortunate i am to even be able to log on to the internet and type this out.
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The answer is simple kill everyone all over the planet all at once problem solved.
Including all the artist's that work on your jerk off batman rags.
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Fighting for my country? Did none of you read the part where I told you that I'm a photojournalist?
My job is to promote the positive achievements of the navy and document the navy's story.
I have never nor have I any desire to be boots on ground (which is the main reason I joined the navy instead of the army or marines). The closest I have come to military death is talking with purple heart recipients who tell me about their friends turning into pink mist after stepping on an anti-tank mine or hospital corpsmen getting grade 3 concussions from IEDs while still trying to patch together everyone else hit by the same IED.
Also, I have photographed autopsies and dead fetuses for my country.
Before this current job, I was the single handed computer support for three large detachments covering the news (print, radio or video) from the persian gulf to the west coast (the largest area of responsibility in all of the navy's fleets).
Before that, I single handed provided logistic support for all media operations aboard the 7th fleet flag ship.
Not everyone in the military has a job to go kill people. If you think that, then you really are pretty ignorant.
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KILL EM' ALL, LET GOD SORT EM' OUT.
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Not everyone in the military has a job to go kill people. If you think that, then you really are pretty ignorant.
I don't think anyone actually accused you of killing people. By the same token though, not everyone in the military is a photojournalist or intelligence operator. Anyway, there's no need to be so defensive, you don't have to justify what you do to anyone on here.
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Do what I'm doing and become a fire fighter instead.
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Not everyone in the military has a job to go kill people. If you think that, then you really are pretty ignorant.
I don't think anyone actually accused you of killing people. By the same token though, not everyone in the military is a photojournalist or intelligence operator. Anyway, there's no need to be so defensive, you don't have to justify what you do to anyone on here.
Don't say there's no need to be defensive, when there are people in this thread saying "go die for oil".
Do what I'm doing and become a fire fighter instead.
The military has fire fighters too....
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gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.
weedpop, your last post makes me think i may have overstated my position and that we are closer aligned than we both originally though. my whole posting in this thread started after someone posted a die for oil suckers DK poster. that just seems harsh to me, especially knowing that people like hate post here.
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*Mandatory slightly relevant movie gif*
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk82o89vSG1qe0eclo1_r7_500.gif)
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The military has fire fighters too....
They actually don't anymore, or if they do they are extremely limited in capacity. They've all gone to civilian dudes- even in deployed areas.
Navy still does. They are called damage controlmen, but every shipboard sailor is required to know and qualify in basic firefighting skills.
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Air Force still has firefighters as far as I know.
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Some awesome points made in this thread.
Anyone who's thinking of enlisting should read this short book by General Smedley Butler, written shortly before the start of WWII. In fact everyone in this thread should read it as well, and don't assume it's garbage just because you think I'm a dick.
You can see it online here:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html)
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gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.
I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.
Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0#)
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMEI8bnbw1o&feature=related#ws)
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg#)
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gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.
I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.
Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0#)
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMEI8bnbw1o&feature=related#ws)
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg#)
Good post.
To OP:
Grandfather did Korea(airforce). Great grandfather did ww2 (airforce). Father was Army. If anything, if you want to join, do so in times of none conflict and you can ease through doing useless tasks like my father, washing a superiors truck in the army for no reason at all be it decoration/command. With so much public funding/options (this is to OP by the way) level your pros and cons. You 're much better playing the social game in union friendly states versus right to work states (south). Be it you are in one. My father garnered skills in tech shit in the late 70's/early 80's which benefited him greatly, but he had to work and strive with competition. He is somewhat of an intelligent individual with a scope of what he wanted for his family versus an abusive military background family. He got on with a company in the banking service industry and was able to sustain us(family).
Anyway, you have vast choice without military intervention. I've worked many minimum wage gigs in the last few years and kept a roof over my head, food in my belly, and clothes on my back. On a minimal paycheck, and just recently decided to go back to school at age 26 and with a job promotion to 25k a year + benefits (jack shit to most, but its all personal best, man) Took some searching and endless bullshit gigs, but there is a light at the end of a tunnel, be it your expectations aren't too high. All I have to say is be ready to work HARD period. Shit isn't landing on your doorstep regardless of prior hardwork. Good luck, man.
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Air Force still has firefighters as far as I know.
ARFF. It's pretty much just put out the fire and let the people rescue themselves. You would never send a fire fighter into that level of IDLH. At some point I'll find a place to train and be certified ARFF as well as get my red card to do wildland fire fighting. There are a lot of jobs out there to be had in the field, but competition is stiff.
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This thread was truly great reading. The gipper always delivers the goods.
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gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.
I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.
Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0#)
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMEI8bnbw1o&feature=related#ws)
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg#)
fair enough and great post gipper. i still feel differently towards troups that you but definitely respect your position. i'm a big fan of howard zinn and enjoyed that video. i'll probably grab his empire book. i already have his peoples history of the united states. i think if we used books more like these below the college level we might see kids get more interested in history and possibly get a more engaged ellectorate.
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^^One of my highschool history teachers turned me on to Zinn. Needless to say he was one of the best teachers I had.
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Yeah, just say fuck it and become Batman!!
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gipper, good point about germany and other similar demilitarized countries but there's still no getting rid of war. surely you see that being a history teacher. my point is simply don't blame the troups for the shitty causes, it's not their doing. and my follow up point was that people join for lots of reasons and that getting to kill people is probably not most peoples primary motivator and infact is probably what most people dread the most outside of dying in action. there's just way too many people painting it like combat is actually something people enjoy.
I'm not saying entirely eliminating war, but as a history teacher what I actually see is that most of the wars the U.S. has been in have been avoidable and we have been the aggressor. Whether or not somebody joins the army to pillage and kill or they join it to get money for college, the Army wants them there so they can pillage and kill, and in the end 99% of it is for profit. In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort. If somebody decided to join the German army in 1942, I'd say they were Nazi scum, not patriots who didn't get to choose the war.
Kab- I always thought "War is a Racket" was just a speech, but an amazing one. Butler is really interesting too, because right around the time FDR was elected, several corporate leaders tried to organize a fascist coup and tried to enlist Butler as the military leader for the overthrow, but he refused and turned them in. He was in many ways a true patriot, and had a true sense of what war does to this country, and let's remember, this is BEFORE we had permanent war industries, which have made the MI complex so much worse.
Here's Butler's speech:
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0#)
Here's a thing about the American fascists he helped defeat:
Major General Smedley Butler & The Fascist Takeover Of The USA - A Warning From History (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMEI8bnbw1o&feature=related#ws)
Here's a little food for thought about America as an empire:
A People's History of American Empire by Howard Zinn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg#)
fair enough and great post gipper. i still feel differently towards troups that you but definitely respect your position. i'm a big fan of howard zinn and enjoyed that video. i'll probably grab his empire book. i already have his peoples history of the united states. i think if we used books more like these below the college level we might see kids get more interested in history and possibly get a more engaged ellectorate.
People's history of American Empire is actually a graphic novel. Its the book most commonly borrowed from me by students. Between the crazy stories and comic book format they love it.
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(http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/_/_jello_biafra-die_for_oil._sucker.jpg)
pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.
Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.
Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!
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(http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/_/_jello_biafra-die_for_oil._sucker.jpg)
pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.
Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.
Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!
You come off as an asshole. It was probably your upbringing around meathead assholes who like the feeling of authority that makes you feel the need to force people to shut up if you don't agree with them though, so I don't blame you.
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feeling of authority??? in the military??? hahaha, it's the most bow down and kiss my ass environment you could possibly work in.
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Are you serious? As soon as you join any armed forces branch they tell you how you are higher than a civillian now, and I consistently get that attitude from them. Also, how about the god-like power many feel when they are able to kill people without repurcussion:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/afghan-massacre-suspect-staff-sgt-robert-bales-criminal/story?id=15948211 (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/afghan-massacre-suspect-staff-sgt-robert-bales-criminal/story?id=15948211)
This guy felt like he had the right to go out and kill whoever he wanted... And the fucking press has his back!
Fuck being a killer, no matter who glorifies or defends it.
If you join the armed forces, you are opening yourself up to being a killer of random people, this is not a moral position EVER. You need the money? Get a fucking job like the rest of us.
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I firmly believe that people join the military because they lack better options.
Although these options may exist, they may not be available or apparent to everyone.
Hopefully this thread can provide information of some of those options. Give the OP viable options to serving instead of pushing him and others in a similar position further into the dirt.
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pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.
Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.
Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!
How is that Gipper?
I was not raised around meatheads, that is my whole point!
My Dad is now one of the leading experts on viking history in Denmark/Northern Germany,how is that for a meathead?
All the dudes I met while affiliated with the army were good people, really good people.
Even the marines ( surprisinlgy enough).
I never joined the army but chose civil service, and all the "meatheads" I was brought up around were really supportive!
All I am saying is that
a) Kab writes stupid shit all the time.
and b) there is no way to say that all soldiers are stupid meatheads.
Hell, I've even met nice cops, or teachers ( imagine that )
But yes I'll give you that one, he didn't say ALL soldiers, he said the majority,...
I just hate these stereotypes.
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I definitely had more options with my college degree and my work experience.
The guys I know who throw around weight like they're better than everyone else because of their rank are usually the guys who are stuck in their current rank because of their shitty attitude.
Most high ranking guys I've met including some admirals are pretty cool about it and quite humble about their position because they know the guys who want the rank just to have it are idiots since they know don't know the workload and skills they need to attain it.
I don't know about the other services, but in the navy, we're a pretty polite bunch to civilians (I open doors, say please and thank you or greet people, give directions to people who look lost, etc. on a daily basis) which is pretty crazy with the stereotype of the crude and foul mouthed sailor. I mean we can get that way sometimes at each other, but I know who pays my bills so I don't do anything to sully the uniform I put on. I'm pretty antisocial when I take off my uniform to be honest.
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I don't really care if anyone thinks I am a meathead. The whole "better than civilians" ego DOES exist, but I'd say less than half the people I know act like that. Most of the time, it's more like a general acknowledgement that civilian and military experiences are pretty different. The amount of people I've had try to overly break things down to me because they think I am a meathead soldier is pretty tiring. It's always really ironic when I find out they've only been to 6 states and have based all their opinions off one college class that opened their eyes or something.
ive just found this thread...
ive been in the navy 3 years, i made E5 in two years, and this has been hard, but worth it.
im stationed in norfolk, va. on a ship that is a small marine carrier. i met some talented skateboarders who are enlisted, both navy and marine.
we deployed for 9 months last year, from august 2010 to may 2011. we hit only 3 ports.
it was like being stuck at work forever, with long lunch lines, crowded gym, and smoke pit. the friends you make during deployments help out.
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I definitely had more options with my college degree and my work experience.
The guys I know who throw around weight like they're better than everyone else because of their rank are usually the guys who are stuck in their current rank because of their shitty attitude.
Most high ranking guys I've met including some admirals are pretty cool about it and quite humble about their position because they know the guys who want the rank just to have it are idiots since they know don't know the workload and skills they need to attain it.
I don't know about the other services, but in the navy, we're a pretty polite bunch to civilians (I open doors, say please and thank you or greet people, give directions to people who look lost, etc. on a daily basis) which is pretty crazy with the stereotype of the crude and foul mouthed sailor. I mean we can get that way sometimes at each other, but I know who pays my bills so I don't do anything to sully the uniform I put on. I'm pretty antisocial when I take off my uniform to be honest.
agreed!
where you stationed???
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
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I'm in Bremerton, WA. Don't ever go here. Unless you're a shut-in. Worst place to be if you want to skateboard more than a few months out of the year.
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
Just remember, recruiters are allowed to lie, and you probably won't get the deal you signed up for.
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
that is just so fucking weird, how is this legal?
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.
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It also helps if you have an ASVAB of 96. The recruiters know you're too stupid to be lied to (for the most part) and that if you walked away without joining they know they let a valuable asset go when their usual run of the mill recruits that grace their office are GED recipients, plea bargained to join instead of jail time, or druggies who struggle to pass every drug test.
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I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.
My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.
I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.
And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.
So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.
I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.
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I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.
My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.
I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.
And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.
So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.
I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.
It's valid. Even if this dude doesn't have kids your experience is valuable to the discussion. Thanks for the input.
Any sick skate spots in Cypress?
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I don't know if my opinion would be valid in this conversation. I'm just a 15 year old kid from the UK in a military family.
My dad is in the army, and has seen action in Iraq twice, Bosnia (and possibly Serbia, i can't exactly remember...). My cousin is also in the army, hoping to deploy to Afghanistan next year.
I just want to say that you won't be the only one affected by being deployed overseas. With my dad being away at such an early age for me kind of messed me up a bit, not knowing what's going to happen next.
And even when he wasn't deployed overseas, we were always moving around so much, living as far away as Cyprus and Canada. So that made me extremely socially awkward, never truly making friends.
So just think about other people, especially family, who would be effected by your choices.
I'm not for joining the forces, but I'm also not against it. It will always be your choice.
I can sort of relate. It's been hard to make friends. I've made friends but after about 3 years my family moved again. So I really never had a true best friend, it's sad to think about. Every once in awhile I'll talk to them on facebook but thats not the same as seeing them in person. Now that I'm in college with just about every student atleast a decade older than me, making friends has been hard. I've meet a few people at work but havent spent any time with them.
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Naw. I'm 21 but the college I go to is online and only offers night courses. http://www.brandman.edu/ (http://www.brandman.edu/)
It's a good school but it lacks things I want to do.
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.
Because it's JUST like selling a car. Things are embellished, glossed over and just touched on. Other thing are left out, softened or made vague. You're a number. They don't HAVE to care about your wellbeing. That's why if you decide to go it's on YOU to do your homework, ask the right questions and not get fucked.
gutterhead- about the tattoos- I am fully sleeved and have one leg tattooed from knee to ankle. You can still get in with minor things on your hands and neck (just not overboard), but that will possibly change soon with the drawdowns. If you're in, you're in though. If they change the rules, you'll be grandfathered in.
I've ran into new recruits and recruiters at various bars on occasion and always had a great dialogue about putting coins in coffers and said recruiters not giving a shit about supposed cannon fodder. Made some enlisted fellas uneasy and recruiters even more so. The counter was always some bullshit counter point of benefits that barely serve getting your rights/humanity reduced. In my opinion recruiters are advertising/pr scum with a different decoration of bullshit. As in a bachelor's in bullshit. Spot on post HATE!
If you know what you're giving up and are cool with it, more power to you. Stronger man than I, but in the mean time I wouldn't chance it.
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Family is very valid to this discussion. It's a huge part of why I'm getting out after this duty station.
After this, I'm supposed to be out to sea for three years if I chose to stay in.
My kids are currently 3 (son) and 7 (daughter). I'm not trying to miss out on their most formative years being stuck on a carrier. I love the relationship we have with each other and their personalities are pretty damned awesome, too. All that shit will surely change if daddy is gone for the majority of the next three years.
I've seen it happen to my buddies kids that are playing with my kids. Little kids like that seem so broken from the experience of so much absence in their lives. They're always attention starved for a male figure which sucks for me since I'm almost always the only male around since I've got shore duty.
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.
Because it's JUST like selling a car. Things are embellished, glossed over and just touched on. Other thing are left out, softened or made vague. You're a number. They don't HAVE to care about your wellbeing. That's why if you decide to go it's on YOU to do your homework, ask the right questions and not get fucked.
gutterhead- about the tattoos- I am fully sleeved and have one leg tattooed from knee to ankle. You can still get in with minor things on your hands and neck (just not overboard), but that will possibly change soon with the drawdowns. If you're in, you're in though. If they change the rules, you'll be grandfathered in.
I've ran into new recruits and recruiters at various bars on occasion and always had a great dialogue about putting coins in coffers and said recruiters not giving a shit about supposed cannon fodder. Made some enlisted fellas uneasy and recruiters even more so. The counter was always some bullshit counter point of benefits that barely serve getting your rights/humanity reduced. In my opinion recruiters are advertising/pr scum with a different decoration of bullshit. As in a bachelor's in bullshit. Spot on post HATE!
If you know what you're giving up and are cool with it, more power to you. Stronger man than I, but in the mean time I wouldn't chance it.
Alright, man, I will say it one more time. This shit works for some people and it is abysmal for others. The day my bus rolled into RTC I knew that I had not chosen the right path. It wasn't hard to get out but the process was not pleasant. I don't think everyone can be so lucky.
One day, after being bummed on life for quite some time, I decided to see the recruiter. MA1 Lanier was a tall black guy who said "hey, man, you wanna join the Navy?" He didn't shake my hand like an authority figure, he dapped me up like a homie. He talked to me about girls, traveling, and good jobs in the future. I destroyed the ASVAB, scored in the upper 90s. These fuckers wanted me, if i signed on as a nuc. tech, dude would've gotten some serious bonus cash if i'm not mistaken. Anyways, I'm tattooed like a motherfucker with mushrooms and skate shit on one arm to boot, i've been arrested, and had trouble passing a drug test. MA1 got all the appropriate waivers taken care of. I've got an extensive medical history- was hit by a car in 04, broke many bones, concussions/brain swelling, etc. He said "No pins or screws and it never happened." He got reassigned and my new recruiter was a woman who hated the Navy. She did her job but the day she drove me to MEPS to ship she told me that she was getting a bad rap in the navy and wanted to get out.... how prophetic.
Whatever, like i said, I got out by feigning head problems and the process has been a cause of my appreciation for what I've worked to have at this point in time. all of it on my own terms. In fact, i just got the email with a PDF attachment that contains the lineup for a conference where i'll be speaking with a doctors, phD candidates, monks, reporters, and just about everyone who has knowledge of Khmer studies. My name is on that shit as "Mr. Steven ..... Student, Presenting "......" It's running through my mind how three years ago I thought that through completely sacrificing myself, the military would be my only choice.
As far as the recruiter goes, mine played buddy buddy with me and told ME to lie. He told me that I would never get caught. Right now, I'm thinking of the first time I snorted dope or ate a pill and thought "yeah, it's only something small. this will never get out of control" Watch out for that shit. While i was in the separation process I learned that had i stayed in and gotten hurt there was a chance that my med records could be brought up. If that were the case I could have gotten a DD.
I say all of this because if you've got half a brain, some heart, and some nerve you can do something greater, if not better. There are ways to travel and see new places. Ways to become a new person or stay the same. You've gotta look though. good luck
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legal hitmen who kill for money simple as that, no glory, pride, justice the last good war was ww2 not this shit.
(http://tomheller.de/fuck_the_army.jpg)
Hey "Skate Troll", let me ask you something.
Have you ever been affected by the armed forces? Ever had that feeling where you know your dad is missing out on your childhood, but he is doing it to protect you? Have you ever experienced the death of a close family member/friend, only to find some-one over the internet saying they have "no glory, pride or justice". I just don't understand how you can criticise the very people protecting you and your way of life.
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legal hitmen who kill for money simple as that, no glory, pride, justice the last good war was ww2 not this shit.
(http://tomheller.de/fuck_the_army.jpg)
Hey "Skate Troll", let me ask you something.
Have you ever been affected by the armed forces? Ever had that feeling where you know your dad is missing out on your childhood, but he is doing it to protect you? Have you ever experienced the death of a close family member/friend, only to find some-one over the internet saying they have "no glory, pride or justice". I just don't understand how you can criticise the very people protecting you and your way of life.
alright, let's break this down. Offensive wars are fought for conquest. The purpose of conquest is the acquisition of THINGS. Conquest is excused, supported, and fueled by intangibles, such as Glory and Pride.
The people protecting my "way of life" are honest educators and community leaders. Tell us all how WE are being protected by the armed forces? The most dangerous of enemies are those who are behind the lines, the leaders of the kleptocracy. "Our Way of Life" is a collective acceptance of disintegrating Justice as perpetrated by the ruling systems.
I can certainly understand that you or anyone might feel offended, upset, or confused by the comments and criticism of another, as it's based on emotion. A sort of empathy. However, it's empathy in a singular sense. Consider EVERYONE who suffers due to war and it is plain to see that the idea of a modern warrior as a purveyor of justice is a myth.
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legal hitmen who kill for money simple as that, no glory, pride, justice the last good war was ww2 not this shit.
(http://tomheller.de/fuck_the_army.jpg)
Hey "Skate Troll", let me ask you something.
Have you ever been affected by the armed forces? Ever had that feeling where you know your dad is missing out on your childhood, but he is doing it to protect you? Have you ever experienced the death of a close family member/friend, only to find some-one over the internet saying they have "no glory, pride or justice". I just don't understand how you can criticise the very people protecting you and your way of life.
alright, let's break this down. Offensive wars are fought for conquest. The purpose of conquest is the acquisition of THINGS. Conquest is excused, supported, and fueled by intangibles, such as Glory and Pride.
The people protecting my "way of life" are honest educators and community leaders. Tell us all how WE are being protected by the armed forces? The most dangerous of enemies are those who are behind the lines, the leaders of the kleptocracy. "Our Way of Life" is a collective acceptance of disintegrating Justice as perpetrated by the ruling systems.
I can certainly understand that you or anyone might feel offended, upset, or confused by the comments and criticism of another, as it's based on emotion. A sort of empathy. However, it's empathy in a singular sense. Consider EVERYONE who suffers due to war and it is plain to see that the idea of a modern warrior as a purveyor of justice is a myth.
I suppose that is a good point there. I kind of just got carried away when i saw that.
I just disagree with the whole idea that soldiers should be discrminated.
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legal hitmen who kill for money simple as that, no glory, pride, justice the last good war was ww2 not this shit.
(http://tomheller.de/fuck_the_army.jpg)
Hey "Skate Troll", let me ask you something.
Have you ever been affected by the armed forces? Ever had that feeling where you know your dad is missing out on your childhood, but he is doing it to protect you? Have you ever experienced the death of a close family member/friend, only to find some-one over the internet saying they have "no glory, pride or justice". I just don't understand how you can criticise the very people protecting you and your way of life.
alright, let's break this down. Offensive wars are fought for conquest. The purpose of conquest is the acquisition of THINGS. Conquest is excused, supported, and fueled by intangibles, such as Glory and Pride.
The people protecting my "way of life" are honest educators and community leaders. Tell us all how WE are being protected by the armed forces? The most dangerous of enemies are those who are behind the lines, the leaders of the kleptocracy. "Our Way of Life" is a collective acceptance of disintegrating Justice as perpetrated by the ruling systems.
I can certainly understand that you or anyone might feel offended, upset, or confused by the comments and criticism of another, as it's based on emotion. A sort of empathy. However, it's empathy in a singular sense. Consider EVERYONE who suffers due to war and it is plain to see that the idea of a modern warrior as a purveyor of justice is a myth.
I just disagree with the whole idea that soldiers should be discrminated.
take 10 minutes and read this article written by Chris Hedges. He's a guy, a reporter who has covered war in many countries over the past 20-30 years. Do yourself a favor and check it out
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/murder_is_not_an_anomoly_in_war_20120319/ (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/murder_is_not_an_anomoly_in_war_20120319/)
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.
Because it's JUST like selling a car. Things are embellished, glossed over and just touched on. Other thing are left out, softened or made vague. You're a number. They don't HAVE to care about your wellbeing. That's why if you decide to go it's on YOU to do your homework, ask the right questions and not get fucked.
gutterhead- about the tattoos- I am fully sleeved and have one leg tattooed from knee to ankle. You can still get in with minor things on your hands and neck (just not overboard), but that will possibly change soon with the drawdowns. If you're in, you're in though. If they change the rules, you'll be grandfathered in.
I've ran into new recruits and recruiters at various bars on occasion and always had a great dialogue about putting coins in coffers and said recruiters not giving a shit about supposed cannon fodder. Made some enlisted fellas uneasy and recruiters even more so. The counter was always some bullshit counter point of benefits that barely serve getting your rights/humanity reduced. In my opinion recruiters are advertising/pr scum with a different decoration of bullshit. As in a bachelor's in bullshit. Spot on post HATE!
If you know what you're giving up and are cool with it, more power to you. Stronger man than I, but in the mean time I wouldn't chance it.
Alright, man, I will say it one more time. This shit works for some people and it is abysmal for others. The day my bus rolled into RTC I knew that I had not chosen the right path. It wasn't hard to get out but the process was not pleasant. I don't think everyone can be so lucky.
One day, after being bummed on life for quite some time, I decided to see the recruiter. MA1 Lanier was a tall black guy who said "hey, man, you wanna join the Navy?" He didn't shake my hand like an authority figure, he dapped me up like a homie. He talked to me about girls, traveling, and good jobs in the future. I destroyed the ASVAB, scored in the upper 90s. These fuckers wanted me, if i signed on as a nuc. tech, dude would've gotten some serious bonus cash if i'm not mistaken. Anyways, I'm tattooed like a motherfucker with mushrooms and skate shit on one arm to boot, i've been arrested, and had trouble passing a drug test. MA1 got all the appropriate waivers taken care of. I've got an extensive medical history- was hit by a car in 04, broke many bones, concussions/brain swelling, etc. He said "No pins or screws and it never happened." He got reassigned and my new recruiter was a woman who hated the Navy. She did her job but the day she drove me to MEPS to ship she told me that she was getting a bad rap in the navy and wanted to get out.... how prophetic.
Whatever, like i said, I got out by feigning head problems and the process has been a cause of my appreciation for what I've worked to have at this point in time. all of it on my own terms. In fact, i just got the email with a PDF attachment that contains the lineup for a conference where i'll be speaking with a doctors, phD candidates, monks, reporters, and just about everyone who has knowledge of Khmer studies. My name is on that shit as "Mr. Steven ..... Student, Presenting "......" It's running through my mind how three years ago I thought that through completely sacrificing myself, the military would be my only choice.
As far as the recruiter goes, mine played buddy buddy with me and told ME to lie. He told me that I would never get caught. Right now, I'm thinking of the first time I snorted dope or ate a pill and thought "yeah, it's only something small. this will never get out of control" Watch out for that shit. While i was in the separation process I learned that had i stayed in and gotten hurt there was a chance that my med records could be brought up. If that were the case I could have gotten a DD.
I say all of this because if you've got half a brain, some heart, and some nerve you can do something greater, if not better. There are ways to travel and see new places. Ways to become a new person or stay the same. You've gotta look though. good luck
I work at a small charter school now (let's not get into the political issues of the charter system, I can probably list more than you can, not sure if y'all have noticed, but community school districts are cutting new teachers, and only hiring teachers at schools that have been cut elsewhere, working for one is nearly impossible) but used to work in a big public school. At that school they had recruiters crawling all over the place, and you described those scumbags perfectly. They get into all this buddy-buddy bullshit with the students and play these fucked up games with their heads. They are EVERYWHERE too. The fucked up thing is the school I am talking about was in the middle of the city, and entirely populated by people of color, where most were in severe poverty. My high school was demographically very different, and there would be like one guy coming in once a month, and even though we weren't at war at the time, I bet there is a far greater investment into the innercity still, its so fucked up and predatory. Then the government fucks innercity schools more while pumping up military recruitment, it makes my fucking blood boil. I want to scream at those fucking assholes whenever they are anywhere near one of my students.
Oh, and the school I work at now is deep into gang territory, I know the recruitment methods of the local gangs too, their methods and rationalizations for joining are almost identical, which is hardly a surprise. Its interesting in that position, morally, you either can oppose war and gangs, or you can support war and gangs, but you can't support one without at least justifying the existence of the other.
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SOOOOO...... after much time mulling it over, I contacted a recruiter today, and have an appointment to stop by her office tomorrow morning.
My main concern right now is getting an instant DQ due to my tattoos, which, needless to say, i will be fucking pissed if it happens.
I wonder if it is gonna start the same way here in germany since we're just transitioning into a volounteer army.
Because it's JUST like selling a car. Things are embellished, glossed over and just touched on. Other thing are left out, softened or made vague. You're a number. They don't HAVE to care about your wellbeing. That's why if you decide to go it's on YOU to do your homework, ask the right questions and not get fucked.
gutterhead- about the tattoos- I am fully sleeved and have one leg tattooed from knee to ankle. You can still get in with minor things on your hands and neck (just not overboard), but that will possibly change soon with the drawdowns. If you're in, you're in though. If they change the rules, you'll be grandfathered in.
I've ran into new recruits and recruiters at various bars on occasion and always had a great dialogue about putting coins in coffers and said recruiters not giving a shit about supposed cannon fodder. Made some enlisted fellas uneasy and recruiters even more so. The counter was always some bullshit counter point of benefits that barely serve getting your rights/humanity reduced. In my opinion recruiters are advertising/pr scum with a different decoration of bullshit. As in a bachelor's in bullshit. Spot on post HATE!
If you know what you're giving up and are cool with it, more power to you. Stronger man than I, but in the mean time I wouldn't chance it.
Alright, man, I will say it one more time. This shit works for some people and it is abysmal for others. The day my bus rolled into RTC I knew that I had not chosen the right path. It wasn't hard to get out but the process was not pleasant. I don't think everyone can be so lucky.
One day, after being bummed on life for quite some time, I decided to see the recruiter. MA1 Lanier was a tall black guy who said "hey, man, you wanna join the Navy?" He didn't shake my hand like an authority figure, he dapped me up like a homie. He talked to me about girls, traveling, and good jobs in the future. I destroyed the ASVAB, scored in the upper 90s. These fuckers wanted me, if i signed on as a nuc. tech, dude would've gotten some serious bonus cash if i'm not mistaken. Anyways, I'm tattooed like a motherfucker with mushrooms and skate shit on one arm to boot, i've been arrested, and had trouble passing a drug test. MA1 got all the appropriate waivers taken care of. I've got an extensive medical history- was hit by a car in 04, broke many bones, concussions/brain swelling, etc. He said "No pins or screws and it never happened." He got reassigned and my new recruiter was a woman who hated the Navy. She did her job but the day she drove me to MEPS to ship she told me that she was getting a bad rap in the navy and wanted to get out.... how prophetic.
Whatever, like i said, I got out by feigning head problems and the process has been a cause of my appreciation for what I've worked to have at this point in time. all of it on my own terms. In fact, i just got the email with a PDF attachment that contains the lineup for a conference where i'll be speaking with a doctors, phD candidates, monks, reporters, and just about everyone who has knowledge of Khmer studies. My name is on that shit as "Mr. Steven ..... Student, Presenting "......" It's running through my mind how three years ago I thought that through completely sacrificing myself, the military would be my only choice.
As far as the recruiter goes, mine played buddy buddy with me and told ME to lie. He told me that I would never get caught. Right now, I'm thinking of the first time I snorted dope or ate a pill and thought "yeah, it's only something small. this will never get out of control" Watch out for that shit. While i was in the separation process I learned that had i stayed in and gotten hurt there was a chance that my med records could be brought up. If that were the case I could have gotten a DD.
I say all of this because if you've got half a brain, some heart, and some nerve you can do something greater, if not better. There are ways to travel and see new places. Ways to become a new person or stay the same. You've gotta look though. good luck
Oh, and the school I work at now is deep into gang territory, I know the recruitment methods of the local gangs too, their methods and rationalizations for joining are almost identical, which is hardly a surprise. Its interesting in that position, morally, you either can oppose war and gangs, or you can support war and gangs, but you can't support one without at least justifying the existence of the other.
The military can be viewed at as the most well funded gang out there. There's the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) that automatically sets a different standard of justice- look at the case of Staff Sergeant Robert Bales, who murdered 16 civilians in Afghanistan- he's a subject to the UCMJ and a military tribunal that, regardless of proof and the heinous nature of his crime, will take far longer than a civilian trial to result in a conviction. Shit, think about at cops as well, i have often heard the statement, "the police are the most powerful street gang in the US."
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The police actually play an internal role though. I'm not saying I think police policy at present is acceptable, but gangs and armies both function off of this idea that it is their duty to go out and control and patrol areas, usually for somebody else's interests, based on thin rationalizations at best, while killing people with pretty much identical mindsets as them but a few cultural or social differences with a lot of words like pride, honor, and respect flying around without much real meaning. There's no real honor in either though once you step back from the brainwashing that occurs with both from young ages....
G.I. JOE: A Real American Hero Intros 1983-1987 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX_9jKFpQKM#ws)
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please join the army so you stop harrassing me on these forums, thatd be great
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The police actually play an internal role though. I'm not saying I think police policy at present is acceptable, but gangs and armies both function off of this idea that it is their duty to go out and control and patrol areas, usually for somebody else's interests, based on thin rationalizations at best, while killing people with pretty much identical mindsets as them but a few cultural or social differences with a lot of words like pride, honor, and respect flying around without much real meaning. There's no real honor in either though once you step back from the brainwashing that occurs with both from young ages....
Not getting on either side, but your posts have reminded me of one of the major details that, sociologically speaking, define a government: the legitimate use of violence.
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^I don't know why you even bother talking to Gipper, he obviously thinks very little of you.
"Oh, and joining an imperial army for money or benefits isn't noble, it just means that if somebody pays you enough, you'll become a killer.
If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game."
"In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort."
"If you join the armed forces, you are opening yourself up to being a killer of random people, this is not a moral position EVER. You need the money? Get a fucking job like the rest of us."
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Personally, i was a conscript for 11 months in an infantry battalion and later was at the military forces HQ. Since conscription means mandatory military service and the only way you can "get out of it", is by faking your physical or mental health. And alot of young healthy men do that. Approximately 2/3 of all of the recruits dont have to serve our country. I was not fond of the idea of abandoning my life for 8 or 11 months (junior NCO's, medics, logistics etc serve 11 months. 8 months are for regular troops/privates). But i didnt want to damage my personal honour, since military service is an honorable thing in my country. So i thought, if i have to go, i go.
Being 22 at the time and attending an university, i had better oportunities to become a specialist or a squad leader. And that's what i wanted. If i had to go, i atleast wanted to make the most of it. So i got enlisted for 11 months and my service would start in the middle of the summer at an infantry battalion. The battalion had five companies: infantry, mortar battery, espionage, mobile HQ and that company, that supplies food, fuel and ammo (dont know the name in english). Anyway, i arrived to the battalion and all of the new recruits got escorted to the auditorium. We had to fill some papers about ourselves and our preferable company. I didnt know shit about the army, so i just went with "infantry", thinking its probably the easiest. Obviously, it was not.
The first 3 months was boot camp. You couldnt get out of the battalion, you could use your phone only during your free time (which was schedueled a hour and a half per day, if we even had free time), and had to endure massive amounts of physical and mental exercise. Discipline was strict and there was no fucking around. I think the shittiest thing during boot camp was the 3-cigarettes-per-day rule. It was stressful enough and you couldnt have a ciggy, if you wanted? The rule only applied when we were at the battalion. After 3 weeks of boot camp, we finally had forrest training camps. And for a month straight! It sounds bad, but it was more interesting in the forrest, than in a classroom. And you could have more cigarettes, if you werent caught by the sergeants or officers.
(http://i.minus.com/jbzTTMKp2s3ci8.jpg)
Typical tent and just some chillin'
After the intensive and enduring 3 month infantry basic training, we almost saw the bright white light: our chance to have a little 10 day vacation at home. Before thought, we had to finish our exams (both theoretical and practical) and the peregrination (basically a long walk with all of your equipment). The peregrination wasnt that hard: about 60km (37miles) and full gear with the automatic weapon weighed about 40-45 kg-s (95lbs). If i remember correctly, we did it under 24 hours, since we had the opportunity to camp for the night.
(http://i.minus.com/jbmuGxhSajPER9.jpg)
We wanted to make a shortcut by walking on the railroad. Wasnt a really good idea at all..
During boot camp i was fortunite enought to apply for a service job at the Defence Forces HQ as a videoreporter. Due to my background (i film and shoot photos) i was sure to get the job. It took a while. And since it took a while, i began mastering the basics and specialities of an infantry squad leader. The course lasted 3 months and the difference between boot camp was, that it was alot harder, required more thinking, physical strength and finally had the opportunity to acquire weekend passes. Weekend passes are "tickets" that have the power to release you from the battalion from friday to sunday evening. If you didnt have any problems and did your tasks well, there wasnt a reason to hold you in the barracks for the weekend. Now it kind of felt like a job. Worked/trained/learned from 8-5, had more free time in the evenings and could go home during the weekends.
Since squad leaders are not privates, that meant the course wasnt just to learn how to be a leader, medic, logistic etc. You actually learned how to be a junior NCO. At the end of the course you could get the junior-sergeants rank, which is actually corporal in the US Army ranks. Basically it was an E-4 rank. Actually, the confusions starts before, since we dont have a private first class rank.
So in reality:
Estonian Defence Forces: Private -> Corporal -> Junior Sergeant -> Sergeant
US Army: Private -> Private First Class -> Corporal -> Sergeant
Due to the lack of man power in our reserves and a necessity to fill the junior NCO quota, we have the odd rank of junior sergeant.
Anyway, during the junior NCO course, we were in outdoor camps for 2 months straight (not counting the weekends). It was already October-November and it wasnt as pleasant of an experience if you want to compare it to the summer camps. I remember, that one week we had a camp, where we couldnt use tents and had to sleep in our sleeping bags under the stars. Well, actually we had this raincoat thingy and it had the ability to provide as a "cover", or act as a tent. It was during november and all week long it rained. Seriously. After the second or third day, my sleeping bag and most of my clothes were wet. It was cold and fucking depressing. But an experience to remember.
(http://i.minus.com/jbkqe1g0AG3Le4.jpg)
Ratios.
(http://i.minus.com/jo7UYy3fS2jG3.jpg)
Smoking was everyones favourite activity
Like boot camp, the junior NCO course had exams and the final peregrination, which was during December at the mountanious terrain of southern Estonia. It was about 120km (75 miles) and like before, with full equipment. It lasted about 60 hours. We had the opportunity to sleep during night, but that didnt quite play out right. First night we got a nice 5 hours sleep, but the second night we slept only for an hour, since we arrived at camp in 7am and had to leave at 8. Slippery roads, few checkpoints and walking in snow, which was up to your knees. Not an easy task. Anyway, we finished it, got our ranks and left for the barracks. Had a nice 2+ week vacation after that.
(http://i.minus.com/jkiFhuHg7EatQ.jpg)
Resting.
In january i finally was signed to the HQ-s, and started working as a combat reporter. We had our priviliges. Standard working time at the office, from 9-5, and once or twice a week made a video about some exercise or some other activity. That meant we had to travel to different places and it was really interesting to see how other military branches worked, since my knowledge was limited strictly to the infantry.
In May, a month before the reserve, we have a really big training exercise, where every conscript from that year attends. Basically every battalion in Estonia is attending this event to practice their co-operation skills. It lasted for 3 weeks and man, was that amazing!
In the beginning of June, we finally were sent to reserve. Due to hard work an loiality, i made sergeant and couldnt have been happier! Conscription was over and it felt good! It was really weird for a week, thinking i can do now whatever the hell i want. I liked serving in the military. It didnt make me a meathead or a killing machine. We were always thought, that there is no use of a stupid soldier. A soldier has to be smart. I can now make better decisions while under stress, im polite, i have principals and so forth. All around im a better person, thanks to conscription.
(http://i.minus.com/jERiDt8svbvS0.jpg)
The story was quite long, but i didnt even get into the details of our training and other funny shit, that was going on. I hope you enjoy the slight overview of my service!
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Gip and Steve- In some of your posts I can't tell if you're against the military or against the stereotypical soldier.� If you're against the military, what do you propose is put in it's place in the case that there is a need for something to be in place for National Defense.
I'm not for an offensive military. Despite their current use the National and Coast Guard were created for reasons of National Defense.
It's morally difficult to rationalize fighting for a military that is attacking the people of a Country under the guise of lies such as "national defense." The whole process of offensive war and recruiting for the attacking armed forces is virulent. Culturally it's mostly unacceptable to discuss it because "some gave all." In response I say, many give all to their job. my old man has spend the past 30 years working 12 hour days 6 days/week to bring bread home, that's some intense shit when it's broken down. Underfunded and over worked social workers give all. teachers. It's frustrating to see overwhelming support for parts of a machine that does nothing build kill.
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Well, I can't say I disagree with you at all. But to be honest, your problems don't lie with the military then. They lie with the government. The government decides where the military goes. Yeah, yeah, I am sure there is always some little group of operatives out there planning to take out any leader that does things that are counter-intuitive to our "best interests," but that is significantly different from a major campaign. Outside of training, deciding how it's budget is formed and advising the President, the military is just another arm of the government.
This is why i said something about making a "moral rationalization" for deciding to enlist. I suppose that the reason I feel so free saying this is because of decisions that I have made. When I was told and it hit me that I was going to be part of a killing apparatus I decided that I was having nothing to do with it.
I'm not out to attack anyone, another reason why I think it's necessary to discuss this shit- an attack only brings resentment.
So, with the military acting as another branch of the government, and the government currently acting as a support for corporate interests (c'mon, it's hard to argue otherwise right now), it's safe to say that the military acts as the firepower for the interests to gain the resources necessary to build more capital. Is that an appropriate national interest? At one time I even argued that "well, we've got a high quality of life. We've got freedoms. We've got stuff. People aren't starving. At least we're taken care of..." when accepting and justifying the US status as warmongers, but now, dude, when viewing the political spectrum it's plain and apparent that the argument is invalid.
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My number one reason for getting out (next week!) is that I don't like working for the biggest CORPORATION in the country. That's how I view it.
good deal, man! hopefully you and mrs. hate (that sounds so awesome) can get some travel time logged.
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Hate, who the fuck has tried to invade us in the last 150 years? I know Pearl Harbor, which was at the time an imperial outpost was attacked, but that was clearly an attack on a military base, and 9/11 wasn't an invasion, but the attack was a response to the American Mlitary. If you go back further you can get to Pancho Villa's small invasion, but that was easily defeatable and a reaction to U.S. dominance over Mexican policy and the Tampico incident.
Look at nations with smaller armies, they don't get attacked like we do.
Its just like gang violence, you feel like you need to join to keep the block safe from other gangs, but other gangs are only fucking with your block because of the gang that is there. The gang attracts violence, it doesn't protect anybody from it.
You claim that our issue is with the government, but half the fucking government is the military.
^I don't know why you even bother talking to Gipper, he obviously thinks very little of you.
"Oh, and joining an imperial army for money or benefits isn't noble, it just means that if somebody pays you enough, you'll become a killer.
If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game."
"In the end, if you know what your army is doing or have the ablity to know what they are doing, then you are responsible for what you do when you join. If you joined the army iin the middle of the Iraq war, you were supporting the Iraq war effort."
"If you join the armed forces, you are opening yourself up to being a killer of random people, this is not a moral position EVER. You need the money? Get a fucking job like the rest of us."
"Yo dawg, don't even fuck with him, he don't know what it means to be a true G. They call us killers but they don't understand how the revenge game works in this cold hard world."
Yeah, I've heard it. Anybody who joins an organization that has murder as its aim with no justifiable purpose is a criminal who allows the system to continue its oppression, whether it is army or gang.
The only reason you don't see the difference s you have been brainwashed by army propaganda, just like kids who got brainwashed by the local gang. They don't see murder as murder anymore, they see it as some nobel purpose
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
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Nice story Ige, i can relate to alot of stuff you said there.
Service is mendatory where i live aswell, spent 3 years as a combat medic and i'm glad its behind me!
Also, alot of the training you went through sounds similar to what we have here, even some of the gear is the same.
tons of experiences and stories to tell, when i look back it was an amazing time but as i went through it i wasnt having too much fun.
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
dude, maybe i'm wrong, but you seem to miss a point. soldiers make the choice to do what soldiers do. becoming a solider is a choice that doesn't have to be made. preachers preach, they're doing what preachers do. musicians play, doing what musicians do.
Gipper has said nothing about national defense. The current military has little, if nothing to do with national defense. A better alternative would be to not attack other nations. How can this change? Can we, the citizens, change this through voting? I don't have to come to anyone's defense, especially Gipper, but the dude works in a fucking war zone. Just because it's not one that takes up a fat stack of the national budget doesn't make any less harmful and violent.
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
"You don't understand, you aren't from around here, the streets are real! If we don't kill them they'll kill us..." I'll take it you are pro-gang, considering that you think that logic sticks? Or is it only ok if its a government sponsored turf war?
You do realize that 99% of the world is safe without an imperial army right? .Maybe we can copy them. Just have a defensive army and stop putting outposts all over the world and attacking those who don't let us put them up. Its not all armies that are evil, its OUR army that is evil. The same way 99% of communities don't have gangs in them, but the people who support the gangs in the communities that do think the idea that a gang not being on the block would be crazy and unsafe, then justify the murder and terror that takes place in its name.
Also, don't give me that "just following orders" bullshit in regards to a volunteer army. The same argument you put up could EASILY be used to defend Nazi soldiers. The idea that soldiers aren't a vital necessity in the mission to take over the world is ridiculous. People who volunteer for the army allow the machine to run uninterrupted. You can't be neutral as a soldier.
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gipper, what's your opinion of soldiers who would work in a purely defensive army? they would also be involved in the same kinds of activites that you are calling out as dispicable.
dude, maybe i'm wrong, but you seem to miss a point. soldiers make the choice to do what soldiers do. becoming a solider is a choice that doesn't have to be made.
i'm not missing that point, i think it's a silly point. a soldiers role is not to pick the mission, it's to execute the mission. i understand and can see how our long record of imperialism causes people to question why someone would want to be involved with that kind of thing but that doesn't change the things our military has done and will do that don't fit that bill. are you guys forgetting that seals saved people from pirates recently, killed bin laden, etc... pretty sure i saw a lot of military vehicles involved in katrina and you know if someone does attack us they would be the same people that would come to our rescue.
it feels to me that you are missing the point that being the richest nation in the world means we have to have a military and that the soldiers don't pick what the military does.
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gipper, what's your opinion of soldiers who would work in a purely defensive army? they would also be involved in the same kinds of activites that you are calling out as dispicable.
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dude, maybe i'm wrong, but you seem to miss a point. soldiers make the choice to do what soldiers do. becoming a solider is a choice that doesn't have to be made.
i'm not missing that point, i think it's a silly point. a soldiers role is not to pick the mission, it's to execute the mission. i understand and can see how our long record of imperialism causes people to question why someone would want to be involved with that kind of thing but that doesn't change the things our military has done and will do that don't fit that bill. are you guys forgetting that seals saved people from pirates recently, killed bin laden, etc... pretty sure i saw a lot of military vehicles involved in katrina and you know if someone does attack us they would be the same people that would come to our rescue.
it feels to me that you are missing the point that being the richest nation in the world means we have to have a military and that the soldiers don't pick what the military does.
i'm well aware that the US is the richest nation in the world and I'm further aware of how it came to be so wealthy. Fucking empire, man.
Soldiers, in the US, choose to join. I wish I still had a copy of the Navy contract(s) to quote what I agreed to in verbatim. I agreed to follow the orders of the commander in chief. To support the US in all actions and causes. Now, you see, I know full well that those causes are most often far from just, certainly illegal, and are set in motion to protect corporate interests, not to promote human life and well being.
So again, a solider chooses to enlist and in doing so agrees to execute any mission, regardless of validity, just or unjust nature, etc.
Seals saved people from pirates and killed bin Laden. cool. I don't give a fuck. bin Laden is a figure head, an image (that to, at one time, the US government gave a lot of monetary and military support). These aren't humanitarian missions, man.
Damn right the military was involved in Katrina. In more ways than one; instituting martial law, some reconstruction too. Either way, the National Guard is supposed to respond to emergencies such as Katrina as an act of Homeland Defense. Same with the Coasties.
What are the things our military has done that are worth mentioning?
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gipper, what's your opinion of soldiers who would work in a purely defensive army? they would also be involved in the same kinds of activites that you are calling out as dispicable.
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dude, maybe i'm wrong, but you seem to miss a point. soldiers make the choice to do what soldiers do. becoming a solider is a choice that doesn't have to be made.
i'm not missing that point, i think it's a silly point. a soldiers role is not to pick the mission, it's to execute the mission. i understand and can see how our long record of imperialism causes people to question why someone would want to be involved with that kind of thing but that doesn't change the things our military has done and will do that don't fit that bill. are you guys forgetting that seals saved people from pirates recently, killed bin laden, etc... pretty sure i saw a lot of military vehicles involved in katrina and you know if someone does attack us they would be the same people that would come to our rescue.
it feels to me that you are missing the point that being the richest nation in the world means we have to have a military and that the soldiers don't pick what the military does.
Your hypothetical question is the equivalent of "But what if the army only played rock paper scissors when they went to war?" They don't, our army is not purely defensive, nor does it ever intend to be.
Please cut the bullshit about soldiers not choosing the war. We went over that already. There is no draft, almost every soldier in the army today knew exactly what wars they were signing up for when they signed up for service. They know what we've used our Army for in the past, and none of them are old enough to remember a defensive war. They are legally protected murderers. Your argument perfectly translates to defending Nazi aggression by the way.
Oh, and fighting for our freedom? FUCK that. Our freedoms are constantly stripped for war purposes, and only war purposes. Without war, our freedom wouldn't be threatened.
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
You do realize that 99% of the world is safe without an imperial army right? .Maybe we can copy them. Just have a defensive army and stop putting outposts all over the world and attacking those who don't let us put them up. Its not all armies that are evil, its OUR army that is evil. The same way 99% of communities don't have gangs in them, but the people who support the gangs in the communities that do think the idea that a gang not being on the block would be crazy and unsafe, then justify the murder and terror that takes place in its name.
Also, don't give me that "just following orders" bullshit in regards to a volunteer army. The same argument you put up could EASILY be used to defend Nazi soldiers. The idea that soldiers aren't a vital necessity in the mission to take over the world is ridiculous. People who volunteer for the army allow the machine to run uninterrupted. You can't be neutral as a soldier.
I think you and a lot of other people in this thread take for granted this whole "99 percent" of the world is safe without an imperial army. It's like you discount centuries of history and only see the world post-fall of the Berlin Wall. Did you ever stop to think that maybe majority of states now don't need large armies precisely because the U.S. has an army that stretches across the globe and can deploy into any situation? Europe, a continent that has been host to the bloodiest wars in history, is all of a sudden peaceful since the end of WW2. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's because of the huge U.S. military presence in Europe for the past 65 years? Some goes with Japan post-WW2. Do you truly believe the world would be safer if the U.S. withdrew every military outpost in the world and vowed only to fight in defence of it's own soil? (by the way, that Ron Paul-esque line of thinking has long since become obsolete in foreign policy relations) Say what you want about the U.S. and its involvement is world affairs, but it is BY FAR the most altruistic of any global hegemon in the history of civilization. To say that the U.S. fights wars only for profit is ignoring all the other reasons the U.S. fights. I agree that there's always an element of national self-interest, but that goes for 99 percent of all conflicts- get over it (there's actually a large body of academic work that argues against intervening in conflicts if there's nothing to gain in the national interest- more often than not, the conflict is simply postponed to a later date). Post WW2, every conflict the U.S. has been involved in has been to combat communism/spread democracy, come to the aid on an ally, or intervene in a humanitarian crisis. I'm not going to get into the conduct of the U.S. in some of these conflicts, I'm sure you could come up with 10 pages of questionable practices and I'm not saying that every intervention was a good idea, but you cannot say the motivation is only to further so-called imperialistic goals.
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jay, are you actually regular? like actually?
Since the end of the cold war, the U.S. has directly SUPPORTED the most brutal dictators in defence of 'the market'. Look up Indonesia under Suharto. Over 200,000 (edit: official Indonesian estimate is 500,000. Independent estimates range from 700,000 to 1,000,000.) innocents killed in purges of the Indonesian Communist party (the largest self-determined communist party in the world at the time), and over 100,000 killed in the invasion of East Timor, which pretty much any non-regular will tell you was a GENOCIDE. That's just one instance for your tiny brain to comprehend.
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Also, one of the only military actions of the second half of the 20th century that be considered anything close to 'altruistic' was undertaken by 'Communist' Vietnam against a dude named Pol Pot. Not sure you would have heard of him though because you are regular.
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
You do realize that 99% of the world is safe without an imperial army right? .Maybe we can copy them. Just have a defensive army and stop putting outposts all over the world and attacking those who don't let us put them up. Its not all armies that are evil, its OUR army that is evil. The same way 99% of communities don't have gangs in them, but the people who support the gangs in the communities that do think the idea that a gang not being on the block would be crazy and unsafe, then justify the murder and terror that takes place in its name.
Also, don't give me that "just following orders" bullshit in regards to a volunteer army. The same argument you put up could EASILY be used to defend Nazi soldiers. The idea that soldiers aren't a vital necessity in the mission to take over the world is ridiculous. People who volunteer for the army allow the machine to run uninterrupted. You can't be neutral as a soldier.
I think you and a lot of other people in this thread take for granted this whole "99 percent" of the world is safe without an imperial army. It's like you discount centuries of history and only see the world post-fall of the Berlin Wall. Did you ever stop to think that maybe majority of states now don't need large armies precisely because the U.S. has an army that stretches across the globe and can deploy into any situation? Europe, a continent that has been host to the bloodiest wars in history, is all of a sudden peaceful since the end of WW2. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's because of the huge U.S. military presence in Europe for the past 65 years? Some goes with Japan post-WW2. Do you truly believe the world would be safer if the U.S. withdrew every military outpost in the world and vowed only to fight in defence of it's own soil? (by the way, that Ron Paul-esque line of thinking has long since become obsolete in foreign policy relations) Say what you want about the U.S. and its involvement is world affairs, but it is BY FAR the most altruistic of any global hegemon in the history of civilization. To say that the U.S. fights wars only for profit is ignoring all the other reasons the U.S. fights. I agree that there's always an element of national self-interest, but that goes for 99 percent of all conflicts- get over it (there's actually a large body of academic work that argues against intervening in conflicts if there's nothing to gain in the national interest- more often than not, the conflict is simply postponed to a later date). Post WW2, every conflict the U.S. has been involved in has been to combat communism/spread democracy, come to the aid on an ally, or intervene in a humanitarian crisis. I'm not going to get into the conduct of the U.S. in some of these conflicts, I'm sure you could come up with 10 pages of questionable practices and I'm not saying that every intervention was a good idea, but you cannot say the motivation is only to further so-called imperialistic goals.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you an ignorant American idiot! The rest of the world fucking hates us because of our military presence around the world. They HATE us. Nobody wants another country to be "taking care" of them. Its the classic paternalstic imperial attitude
Its hillarious how you claim there are tons of other reasons we go to war besides profits, but can't name an example of one!
Read some fucking history you moron.
By the way, the idea of altruistic hegemony had me laughing my ass off. You are aware of how stupid that sounds right? Thanks for the laugh.
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
You do realize that 99% of the world is safe without an imperial army right? .Maybe we can copy them. Just have a defensive army and stop putting outposts all over the world and attacking those who don't let us put them up. Its not all armies that are evil, its OUR army that is evil. The same way 99% of communities don't have gangs in them, but the people who support the gangs in the communities that do think the idea that a gang not being on the block would be crazy and unsafe, then justify the murder and terror that takes place in its name.
Also, don't give me that "just following orders" bullshit in regards to a volunteer army. The same argument you put up could EASILY be used to defend Nazi soldiers. The idea that soldiers aren't a vital necessity in the mission to take over the world is ridiculous. People who volunteer for the army allow the machine to run uninterrupted. You can't be neutral as a soldier.
I think you and a lot of other people in this thread take for granted this whole "99 percent" of the world is safe without an imperial army. It's like you discount centuries of history and only see the world post-fall of the Berlin Wall. Did you ever stop to think that maybe majority of states now don't need large armies precisely because the U.S. has an army that stretches across the globe and can deploy into any situation? Europe, a continent that has been host to the bloodiest wars in history, is all of a sudden peaceful since the end of WW2. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's because of the huge U.S. military presence in Europe for the past 65 years? Some goes with Japan post-WW2. Do you truly believe the world would be safer if the U.S. withdrew every military outpost in the world and vowed only to fight in defence of it's own soil? (by the way, that Ron Paul-esque line of thinking has long since become obsolete in foreign policy relations) Say what you want about the U.S. and its involvement is world affairs, but it is BY FAR the most altruistic of any global hegemon in the history of civilization. To say that the U.S. fights wars only for profit is ignoring all the other reasons the U.S. fights. I agree that there's always an element of national self-interest, but that goes for 99 percent of all conflicts- get over it (there's actually a large body of academic work that argues against intervening in conflicts if there's nothing to gain in the national interest- more often than not, the conflict is simply postponed to a later date). Post WW2, every conflict the U.S. has been involved in has been to combat communism/spread democracy, come to the aid on an ally, or intervene in a humanitarian crisis. I'm not going to get into the conduct of the U.S. in some of these conflicts, I'm sure you could come up with 10 pages of questionable practices and I'm not saying that every intervention was a good idea, but you cannot say the motivation is only to further so-called imperialistic goals.
Its hillarious how you claim there are tons of other reasons we go to war besides profits, but can't name an example of one!
Read some fucking history you moron.
By the way, the idea of altruistic hegemony had me laughing my ass off. You are aware of how stupid that sounds right? Thanks for the laugh.
Well, I thought I named three main reasons but I suppose you missed them- combat communism/spread democracy, aiding an ally and humanitarian. I guess I forgot retaliation (Afghanistan) but anyways there they are again. You're a big history buff so I'm sure you can figure out which reason applies to which conflict. I think the main points of my post were:
Did you ever stop to think that maybe majority of states now don't need large armies precisely because the U.S. has an army that stretches across the globe and can deploy into any situation? Europe, a continent that has been host to the bloodiest wars in history, is all of a sudden peaceful since the end of WW2. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's because of the huge U.S. military presence in Europe for the past 65 years? Some goes with Japan post-WW2. Do you truly believe the world would be safer if the U.S. withdrew every military outpost in the world and vowed only to fight in defence of it's own soil?
Which you didn't really address at all. But hey, I don't blame you, those kinds of questions are had to answer when you have the kind of world view that you do.
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yea good thing we fought communism, its not like 90 percent of our shit is manufactured by a communist nation or anything. its mind blowing that people still believe that "fighting communism" was the reason for the vietnam and cold war
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gipper, what's the better alternative? are you really for no national defense? that's fine if you are but it definitely frames your arguments in a "unrealistic ideal utopia" way.
i agree fully with Hate's point about it's not the military but the policies, as it's the same point i made before. it's us the citizens that can change that. the soldiers are just doing what soldiers do.
You do realize that 99% of the world is safe without an imperial army right? .Maybe we can copy them. Just have a defensive army and stop putting outposts all over the world and attacking those who don't let us put them up. Its not all armies that are evil, its OUR army that is evil. The same way 99% of communities don't have gangs in them, but the people who support the gangs in the communities that do think the idea that a gang not being on the block would be crazy and unsafe, then justify the murder and terror that takes place in its name.
Also, don't give me that "just following orders" bullshit in regards to a volunteer army. The same argument you put up could EASILY be used to defend Nazi soldiers. The idea that soldiers aren't a vital necessity in the mission to take over the world is ridiculous. People who volunteer for the army allow the machine to run uninterrupted. You can't be neutral as a soldier.
I think you and a lot of other people in this thread take for granted this whole "99 percent" of the world is safe without an imperial army. It's like you discount centuries of history and only see the world post-fall of the Berlin Wall. Did you ever stop to think that maybe majority of states now don't need large armies precisely because the U.S. has an army that stretches across the globe and can deploy into any situation? Europe, a continent that has been host to the bloodiest wars in history, is all of a sudden peaceful since the end of WW2. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's because of the huge U.S. military presence in Europe for the past 65 years? Some goes with Japan post-WW2. Do you truly believe the world would be safer if the U.S. withdrew every military outpost in the world and vowed only to fight in defence of it's own soil? (by the way, that Ron Paul-esque line of thinking has long since become obsolete in foreign policy relations) Say what you want about the U.S. and its involvement is world affairs, but it is BY FAR the most altruistic of any global hegemon in the history of civilization. To say that the U.S. fights wars only for profit is ignoring all the other reasons the U.S. fights. I agree that there's always an element of national self-interest, but that goes for 99 percent of all conflicts- get over it (there's actually a large body of academic work that argues against intervening in conflicts if there's nothing to gain in the national interest- more often than not, the conflict is simply postponed to a later date). Post WW2, every conflict the U.S. has been involved in has been to combat communism/spread democracy, come to the aid on an ally, or intervene in a humanitarian crisis. I'm not going to get into the conduct of the U.S. in some of these conflicts, I'm sure you could come up with 10 pages of questionable practices and I'm not saying that every intervention was a good idea, but you cannot say the motivation is only to further so-called imperialistic goals.
Its hillarious how you claim there are tons of other reasons we go to war besides profits, but can't name an example of one!
Read some fucking history you moron.
By the way, the idea of altruistic hegemony had me laughing my ass off. You are aware of how stupid that sounds right? Thanks for the laugh.
Well, I thought I named three main reasons but I suppose you missed them- combat communism/spread democracy, aiding an ally and humanitarian. I guess I forgot retaliation (Afghanistan) but anyways there they are again. You're a big history buff so I'm sure you can figure out which reason applies to which conflict. I think the main points of my post were:
Did you ever stop to think that maybe majority of states now don't need large armies precisely because the U.S. has an army that stretches across the globe and can deploy into any situation? Europe, a continent that has been host to the bloodiest wars in history, is all of a sudden peaceful since the end of WW2. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's because of the huge U.S. military presence in Europe for the past 65 years? Some goes with Japan post-WW2. Do you truly believe the world would be safer if the U.S. withdrew every military outpost in the world and vowed only to fight in defence of it's own soil?
Which you didn't really address at all. But hey, I don't blame you, those kinds of questions are had to answer when you have the kind of world view that you do.
kind of like you completely ignored my point, person?
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and that company, that supplies food, fuel and ammo (dont know the name in english).
Logistics
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its actually a good choice for some people but know what the fuck youre getting into its gonna suck dick the whole time
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Also, one of the only military actions of the second half of the 20th century that be considered anything close to 'altruistic' was undertaken by 'Communist' Vietnam against a dude named Pol Pot. Not sure you would have heard of him though because you are regular.
the invasion of Cambodia was nothing close to altruistic. Khmer and Vietnamese have lived side by side in resentment for ever. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, while no longer the official ruling party, had plenty of clout. Really, until 1998, the KR were still running shit. For Vietnam to "liberate" Cambodia was totally an economic power play. Hun Sen has been in power since and it's a disaster.
It's interesting that you bring Cambodia into the equation and mention altruism. the government of Cambodia has received over 4billion US dollars in foreign aid and the people still live in total poverty. In 1992, the UN went in and named Cambodia a protectorate state. Elections were set up and... nothing was followed through with. The international community at large quit.
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Also, one of the only military actions of the second half of the 20th century that be considered anything close to 'altruistic' was undertaken by 'Communist' Vietnam against a dude named Pol Pot. Not sure you would have heard of him though because you are regular.
the invasion of Cambodia was nothing close to altruistic. Khmer and Vietnamese have lived side by side in resentment for ever. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, while no longer the official ruling party, had plenty of clout. Really, until 1998, the KR were still running shit. For Vietnam to "liberate" Cambodia was totally an economic power play. Hun Sen has been in power since and it's a disaster.
It's interesting that you bring Cambodia into the equation and mention altruism. the government of Cambodia has received over 4billion US dollars in foreign aid and the people still live in total poverty. In 1992, the UN went in and named Cambodia a protectorate state. Elections were set up and... nothing was followed through with. The international community at large quit.
You realize that it was the U.S. that went into Cambodia and destabilized it so the Khmer Rouge took power as part of the "parrot's beak" strategy to win the war in Vietnam right? And that we went into explicitly went to vietnam for "Rubber, Tin, and oil" as written in state department policy papers revealed in the pentagon papers, right? There is no altruism there at all. We caused a genocide to get basic resources for profits for just a few people.
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Best friend of mine just signed up for 8 years in the Navy. ???
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pretty harsh. i can see the point there but calling people who make the ultimate sacrifice suckers really shitty. they don't pick the wars, they just fight them and they do are selfless in ways that most civilians aren't capable of.
You're a fucking idiot if you believe that. Tons of people join the military for completely selfish reasons, and the typical soldier is not some idealist who believes in his country, he's a meathead asshole who likes the feeling of authority, the status it gives him, and is in the military because he has no other options.
Obviously not true of all people, but please remove your head from your ass and spare us the propaganda.
Kab, all your post really piss me off! How old are you?
I grew up in a military Family (my dads a navy pilot, pretty high up) and spent my childhood surrounded by all sorts of military personal.
While stationed in Norway AFNORTH headquarters I met US, Canadian, Scandinavian Soldiers, and you know what? Shit comes in every color, most of those dudes were fucking awesome.
Don't just go around pointing fingers and speaking your mind on things you clearly have no clue about!
How is that Gipper?
I was not raised around meatheads, that is my whole point!
My Dad is now one of the leading experts on viking history in Denmark/Northern Germany,how is that for a meathead?
All the dudes I met while affiliated with the army were good people, really good people.
Even the marines ( surprisinlgy enough).
I never joined the army but chose civil service, and all the "meatheads" I was brought up around were really supportive!
All I am saying is that
a) Kab writes stupid shit all the time.
and b) there is no way to say that all soldiers are stupid meatheads.
Hell, I've even met nice cops, or teachers ( imagine that )
But yes I'll give you that one, he didn't say ALL soldiers, he said the majority,...
I just hate these stereotypes.
Vikings were the original meatheads
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Also, one of the only military actions of the second half of the 20th century that be considered anything close to 'altruistic' was undertaken by 'Communist' Vietnam against a dude named Pol Pot. Not sure you would have heard of him though because you are regular.
the invasion of Cambodia was nothing close to altruistic. Khmer and Vietnamese have lived side by side in resentment for ever. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, while no longer the official ruling party, had plenty of clout. Really, until 1998, the KR were still running shit. For Vietnam to "liberate" Cambodia was totally an economic power play. Hun Sen has been in power since and it's a disaster.
It's interesting that you bring Cambodia into the equation and mention altruism. the government of Cambodia has received over 4billion US dollars in foreign aid and the people still live in total poverty. In 1992, the UN went in and named Cambodia a protectorate state. Elections were set up and... nothing was followed through with. The international community at large quit.
Altruistic was the wrong word choice. By definition, a state can't be altruistic. I'd still argue that the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia had the residual effect of stopping major atrocities and therefore could be justified on grounds that pretty much every U.S. intervention cannot.
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I've been thinking about joining the Coast Guard for a couple of months now.
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Nice story Ige, i can relate to alot of stuff you said there.
Service is mendatory where i live aswell, spent 3 years as a combat medic and i'm glad its behind me!
Also, alot of the training you went through sounds similar to what we have here, even some of the gear is the same.
tons of experiences and stories to tell, when i look back it was an amazing time but as i went through it i wasnt having too much fun.
I'm guessing you're from Israel, since you have 3 years of service. We have the same weapons, since we got Galil's from you guys. We also use the swedish AK-4, which is bigger, heavier and the elbow support isnt adjustable. And an AK-4 magazine can only hold 20 bullets. Cant even imagine how tedious it is, to change your magazine all the time. The only plus side of it is, that it takes 7,62mm bullets.
Most of our equipment is new and made specially for us. Our Defence Forces are about 20 years old, so we actually had to use second hand swedish combat gear for a while. We actually still use swedish water bottles, flashlights, tent camoflage etc. The helmets are from the US, as are flac jackets.
Damn, i actually do miss my weapon and the thrilling exercises involving combat and shooting.
I did forget to acknowledge ige's post. It's always interesting to read about another country/culture's way of doing things. I do a lot of liaison work and that has definitely been my favorite part of my job.
Thanks! If you're interested, you can check this video out. It's a bit satirical, but i think it really sums up the mandatory service here (press CC for english subtitles:
Kiivrid ja Lihased (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQe2aMikzrk#ws)
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Come work for The Home Depot.
(http://media.merchantcircle.com/25784020/TheHomeDepot_full_full.png)
THE HOME DEPOT. WE HAVEN'T BOMBED A COUNTRY
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Sorry to bump an old thread but whatever.
I took the ASVAB the other week and have been researching jobs that i qualify for, and now that i know a little more about everything i'd like to get more specific advice. For those that don't know, i'm enlisting in the Air Force, and got an AFQT of 80. 78-Mechanical, 88-Administrative, 70-General, and 82-Electric. so far the AFSC's i'm leaning towards are...
1. Unmanned Aerospace Systems
2. Space Systems Operations
3. Weather
4. Fire Protection
5. Air Traffic Control
6. Nuclear Weapons
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Wow! Nuclear Weapons! Now if The U.S. kills millions, including a high percentage of civillians in one fell swoop, or takes away our civil rights due to the possibility of weapons they made being in "the wrong hands" you can claim that you helped!
What a life you are preparing to have!
Why don't you just sell crack on the corner. Less people die, less risk to you, you'll make more money, and you can quit whenever you want. I know it sounds shitty, but think about it this way, its better than your current plans.
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Sorry to bump an old thread but whatever.
I took the ASVAB the other week and have been researching jobs that i qualify for, and now that i know a little more about everything i'd like to get more specific advice. For those that don't know, i'm enlisting in the Air Force, and got an AFQT of 80. 78-Mechanical, 88-Administrative, 70-General, and 82-Electric. so far the AFSC's i'm leaning towards are...
1. Unmanned Aerospace Systems
2. Space Systems Operations
3. Weather
4. Fire Protection
5. Air Traffic Control
6. Nuclear Weapons
1. Definitely a good choice if you like videos games, monster energy drink, the movie Toys, and not having to see accidental civilian casualties "up close and personal." Post-Military Career Options: Few. I hear you can make a lot of money selling gold in games like Diablo though.
2. Space is totally boring, unless you are playing golf on the moon or having zero gravity sex with some hot alien chick. Stay away from this.
3. Weather is unpredictable so you don't have to be good at your job. I recommend this if you plan on going to war in the middle east. All you have to say is that is will be sunny and dry. When you come back to USA though, people are going to be pissed off at you when they cancel their tee-times because you said it was going to fucking rain, asshole. Ironically, you'll deal with more hostiles at home in this case.
4. You want to join the airforce to learn how to become a fireman? WTF? Whatever happened to people wanting to be like Iceman and Maverick?
5. This seem like a smart enough choice, but i've noticed that those little towers at airports seem pretty small so I don't think you'd get a job as a civilian too easily. Unless you could offer them something most couldn't, like maybe you'd work under minimum wage and would bring your own coffee...idk.
6. Nukes eh? Everyone is talking about reducing the nuclear stockpile so maybe you should focus your efforts on turning that discussion in the other direction. Maybe we can get Russia AND China to starting threatening us with those big boys again. Wouldn't that be nice?
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FYI that nukes thing was kind of a joke, and becoming a pilot was my original intent, until i found out the first Pre Req is to have a bachelor's degree. If anything, if i decide to do the whole military career thing, i can get my degree at an Air Force Academy and eventually become a pilot, but it's not an entry level job.
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ARFF
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I find it very comforting that people in Slovenia who choose to serve in the military, become police officers or who work in customs are basically college (or high school) drop-outs who basically aren't qualified to do shit (not even to work at a cash register) - protect and serve, just as long I don't need to do shit but abuse my authority.
Seems to me, USA is kinda on the same page. And that is lame. Abolish military and establish a competent police force and other emergency services.
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Listen, I'm not a meathead, and im not a person. i graduated high school in 2009 with a 3.9 GPA, and got into various (california) state universities, but i'm in that weird middle class where college was too expensive for me, yet i don't qualify for any financial aid. So i got a couple jobs and have been working for the past couple years after high school, which pretty much threw me all off course for saving up and going back to school and what not. The way i see it, i enlist, serve my time, come back home and have the government pay for my schooling, all while getting paid and having full medical and dental coverage. Now i know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i know most everyone on slap is going to, or already has given me and the military a ton of shit in this thread, and i dont really care, but your post Kornholio, was incredibly uninformed and outright stupid.
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fill out a fafsa, take out some loans, write a few essays and try to get some scholarship money. You can get college money.
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fill out a fafsa, take out some loans, write a few essays and try to get some scholarship money. You can get college money.
I would strongly advise against this.
Unless you have a good plan in place to pay your dues.
+Have you considered looking into a cheaper university? The military shouldn't be used as a tool to pay for your schooling if you aren't truly committed to service. That's how I see things, at least.
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Listen, I'm not a meathead, and im not a person. i graduated high school in 2009 with a 3.9 GPA, and got into various (california) state universities, but i'm in that weird middle class where college was too expensive for me, yet i don't qualify for any financial aid. So i got a couple jobs and have been working for the past couple years after high school, which pretty much threw me all off course for saving up and going back to school and what not. The way i see it, i enlist, serve my time, come back home and have the government pay for my schooling, all while getting paid and having full medical and dental coverage. Now i know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i know most everyone on slap is going to, or already has given me and the military a ton of shit in this thread, and i dont really care, but your post Kornholio, was incredibly uninformed and outright stupid.
I'm just generally extremely opposed to military. Don't know if the money is worth the mental damage that serving may inflict on you. Also, here in Slovenia, college is free for anyone (albeit now everything else that comes with it, but it still is affordable for the vast majority and people abuse that for "college party years") and it seems that only the biggest dipshits then choose to serve. Just my two cents.
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Listen, I'm not a meathead, and im not a person. i graduated high school in 2009 with a 3.9 GPA, and got into various (california) state universities, but i'm in that weird middle class where college was too expensive for me, yet i don't qualify for any financial aid. So i got a couple jobs and have been working for the past couple years after high school, which pretty much threw me all off course for saving up and going back to school and what not. The way i see it, i enlist, serve my time, come back home and have the government pay for my schooling, all while getting paid and having full medical and dental coverage. Now i know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i know most everyone on slap is going to, or already has given me and the military a ton of shit in this thread, and i dont really care, but your post Kornholio, was incredibly uninformed and outright stupid.
I'll come in again and say...
Think about this- Although you will, without a doubt, receive good benefits fighting these wars, because that's what you will doing, you are giving up your life to the military. You will be a part of the war machine that is actively responsible for acts of destruction in the name of profit and subsequently the murder countless people. It can be argued that we, in the US, by virtue of using gasoline, paying taxes, etc are all responsible for it. Think of it like this though- you ever see a small fire on the side of the road? Plenty of people do. One might drive by this fire to let it spread and burn, thinking that extinguishing it is not their responsibility. One can pull over to the side of the road and try to put it out. Or gasoline could be poured on the fire, exacerbating its spread. Options one and three spread the fire. Do you want to have a direct part in the spread?
Fill out financial aid paper work, keep working, and take classes at a Community College. Once you hit 24 financial aid gets a lot sweeter. I'm graduating with my BA in a month on my own dime. It's been ridiculous at times but i've had to answer to no one other than myself. I'll be less than 11 grand in debt. I can work that off in less than 5 years.