Flip is hurting

[Brguy]

To stand by Flip a bit, weren't they the first company to really bring people from everywhere in the same place? It seems like they're the first real international team at the time, the skaters where all gathered from around the globe. At least it wasn't all for nothing.

[KDP]

boards/graphics, ads, anything 'art' direction... always complete dogshit. the image/narrative they put out there into the world via their ads and whatnot was random and scattershot at best, but more frequently just incredibly cringe (rowley and daveed flipping off the camera in the 'appleyard hurt our feelings by leaving for more $' ad)

I don't think I completely agree with this.
The Rowley/Daveed flipping off ad was awful, but the earlier ones - The Rune carlsberg rip off, Penny Oxford Uni ads, etc. were pretty dope.
They'd stand out as they might be the only ad in the mag not to feature a trick and to perhaps convey some of the personality of the skaters. Especially Rune and Tom, actually (and Andy Scott should get a mention here)...as they we're definitely a little more of an unknown quantity.
I think that carried through to the Bastien and Arto Sorry era ads.

Can anyone clarify: When Really Sorry came out, was is not just the DVD release with extra, new footage? I remember going to a low key premiere in Melbourne for this. I don't feel like there were heavy global premieres like Sorry.
It was a way of making the DVD release a little more special, which is why there is no intro and the whole thing is put together like a bunch of individual videos.

That is why there is also no Rune part.

I feel like the skating was so heavy, the retrospectively it quickly became "the second Flip video".

Moving on, I think Flip was later under fire for what seemed like a heavy reliance on little kids in the mid-2000s.
They'd always had Andrew Gordon types in the background (Bastien was an early one of those) but you'd had this brand which was marketed around mushrooms, trippy imagery and a little bit of "fuck you" and all of a sudden there are a load of 11 year olds in the mix (Curren, Daveed, Axel and Louie).

That was a weird switch up as it just took away all that 'edge' which the original ads, 411VM parts and Sorry had set up. Flip all of a sudden wasn't a hedonistic outfit in that untouchable realm along with Girl, etc. as little kids were now not only good enough but actually seemed to be a focus.

...and then internally, you'd have three sets of parents in the van which I think would have been really strange for dudes like Appleyard and Arto. Or Tom. If he noticed.

Again, going from memory - they had this still super heavy pro list - Arto, Ali, Appleyard, Geoff, Rune, Bastien but did they not add Shane, Luan and others AFTER Louie, Daveed, Axel and Curren?
I feel like they had a point where it was just super pros and little kids and it felt like it was going to be ten years before any of this fresh blood was worth noticing, if they even made it at all.
They kind of missed out that middle tier of 18 year olds who will be pro soon for a while, and I thought that hurt them a lot.

I think that whole Lance/Bob/Rodrigo move as The Firm shut up shop was an aim to cover that gap. Although it was a bit weird, to be honest.

Then that horrific Shane accident happened and not only did they lose one of those dudes about to go pro, but they also lost one of their most interesting pros in Ali. And then the whole situation was so polarising for skateboarders.

...and it mellowed a bit. Maybe. Things weren't great, but they were moving on.
With half of The Firm (a company no one ever really cared about), Willow, little kids, a pro in jail and another dead and - what I think was one of their mistakes which flies under the radar - skate tricks in their ads, they just couldn't hold up to the scrutiny.

It was almost like the emperor was showing his new clothes at this point.

And then they put out Extremely Sorry which from awful name to reused B-Roll, lion hunting, one of the worst soundtracks ever, claymation and overly long runtime just seemed to fail at every step of the way*.

Stood with all to bear in front of us, even the most hardened Sorry fan just sort of pretended it wasn't all happening.

The ad flipping off Appleyard, Geoff leaving and the stench of him clearly not being able to talk about how things went down, Arto returning whilst simultaneously retiring at the same time pretty much, Daveed becoming the worlds first Skateboarder Meme, Curren - the blond haired team handsome wannabe poster boy from California - becoming the most prominent new pro on there for a minute at a company which in its first decade actively avoided American riders along with dudes actually leaving like Willow, Rodrigo and others on the peripheral (So, not even the b-team were held by just being excited to get in the van) were all these little dents after some solid mid-2000s fuckups.

Then going from Blitz to NHS to Jart in what seemed like a year...I dunno. It just felt like the end to a brand in its death throes for a decade.

I thought Flip was incredible. From the mid-90s onwards. I really want to like it still, but after Extremely Sorry I just think the wheels well and truly fell off.

I just don't think this sort of thing is possible to come back from now. Although that said...current Chocolate is looking pretty dope again. Never thought I'd say that.

Side note: I need to rewatch that weird "3" online only Flip video. Louie, Curren and Alec. I always forget that exists.
They should have made more of that, to be honest. Another miss by not getting a team montage in there and making it something 'proper'.

*Except for Lances part, which was perfect.

[Lou Strux]

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boards/graphics, ads, anything 'art' direction... always complete dogshit. the image/narrative they put out there into the world via their ads and whatnot was random and scattershot at best, but more frequently just incredibly cringe (rowley and daveed flipping off the camera in the 'appleyard hurt our feelings by leaving for more $' ad)

[close]

I don't think I completely agree with this.
The Rowley/Daveed flipping off ad was awful, but the earlier ones - The Rune carlsberg rip off, Penny Oxford Uni ads, etc. were pretty dope.
They'd stand out as they might be the only ad in the mag not to feature a trick and to perhaps convey some of the personality of the skaters. Especially Rune and Tom, actually (and Andy Scott should get a mention here)...as they we're definitely a little more of an unknown quantity.
I think that carried through to the Bastien and Arto Sorry era ads.

Can anyone clarify: When Really Sorry came out, was is not just the DVD release with extra, new footage? I remember going to a low key premiere in Melbourne for this. I don't feel like there were heavy global premieres like Sorry.
It was a way of making the DVD release a little more special, which is why there is no intro and the whole thing is put together like a bunch of individual videos.

That is why there is also no Rune part.

I feel like the skating was so heavy, the retrospectively it quickly became "the second Flip video".

Moving on, I think Flip was later under fire for what seemed like a heavy reliance on little kids in the mid-2000s.
They'd always had Andrew Gordon types in the background (Bastien was an early one of those) but you'd had this brand which was marketed around mushrooms, trippy imagery and a little bit of "fuck you" and all of a sudden there are a load of 11 year olds in the mix (Curren, Daveed, Axel and Louie).

That was a weird switch up as it just took away all that 'edge' which the original ads, 411VM parts and Sorry had set up. Flip all of a sudden wasn't a hedonistic outfit in that untouchable realm along with Girl, etc. as little kids were now not only good enough but actually seemed to be a focus.

...and then internally, you'd have three sets of parents in the van which I think would have been really strange for dudes like Appleyard and Arto. Or Tom. If he noticed.

Again, going from memory - they had this still super heavy pro list - Arto, Ali, Appleyard, Geoff, Rune, Bastien but did they not add Shane, Luan and others AFTER Louie, Daveed, Axel and Curren?
I feel like they had a point where it was just super pros and little kids and it felt like it was going to be ten years before any of this fresh blood was worth noticing, if they even made it at all.
They kind of missed out that middle tier of 18 year olds who will be pro soon for a while, and I thought that hurt them a lot.

I think that whole Lance/Bob/Rodrigo move as The Firm shut up shop was an aim to cover that gap. Although it was a bit weird, to be honest.

Then that horrific Shane accident happened and not only did they lose one of those dudes about to go pro, but they also lost one of their most interesting pros in Ali. And then the whole situation was so polarising for skateboarders.

...and it mellowed a bit. Maybe. Things weren't great, but they were moving on.
With half of The Firm (a company no one ever really cared about), Willow, little kids, a pro in jail and another dead and - what I think was one of their mistakes which flies under the radar - skate tricks in their ads, they just couldn't hold up to the scrutiny.

It was almost like the emperor was showing his new clothes at this point.

And then they put out Extremely Sorry which from awful name to reused B-Roll, lion hunting, one of the worst soundtracks ever, claymation and overly long runtime just seemed to fail at every step of the way*.

Stood with all to bear in front of us, even the most hardened Sorry fan just sort of pretended it wasn't all happening.

The ad flipping off Appleyard, Geoff leaving and the stench of him clearly not being able to talk about how things went down, Arto returning whilst simultaneously retiring at the same time pretty much, Daveed becoming the worlds first Skateboarder Meme, Curren - the blond haired team handsome wannabe poster boy from California - becoming the most prominent new pro on there for a minute at a company which in its first decade actively avoided American riders along with dudes actually leaving like Willow, Rodrigo and others on the peripheral (So, not even the b-team were held by just being excited to get in the van) were all these little dents after some solid mid-2000s fuckups.

Then going from Blitz to NHS to Jart in what seemed like a year...I dunno. It just felt like the end to a brand in its death throes for a decade.

I thought Flip was incredible. From the mid-90s onwards. I really want to like it still, but after Extremely Sorry I just think the wheels well and truly fell off.

I just don't think this sort of thing is possible to come back from now. Although that said...current Chocolate is looking pretty dope again. Never thought I'd say that.

Side note: I need to rewatch that weird "3" online only Flip video. Louie, Curren and Alec. I always forget that exists.
They should have made more of that, to be honest. Another miss by not getting a team montage in there and making it something 'proper'.

*Except for Lances part, which was perfect.

Dang. You sure do have some thoughts* on the subject.
But, seriously... dang.

*Many of which, I agree with.

EDIT: I meant to be cheeky & say something like “Tell us how you really feel.”  Oops.

[KDP]

Dang. You sure do have some thoughts* on the subject.
But, seriously... dang.

*Many of which, I agree with.

EDIT: I meant to be cheeky & say something like “Tell us how you really feel.”  Oops.

When I scrolled to proof read, I realised I'd kind of gone in. Oops.

But yeah, I was a fan of Flip. For a long time. And Girl, Chocolate, Toy Machine, Anti Hero...a lot of those brands from that/my era as a teen. I followed everything they did so hard back then. so, it has sucked to see some of them fall off so badly.

[Lou Strux]

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Dang. You sure do have some thoughts* on the subject.
But, seriously... dang.

*Many of which, I agree with.

EDIT: I meant to be cheeky & say something like “Tell us how you really feel.”  Oops.

[close]

When I scrolled to proof read, I realised I'd kind of gone in. Oops.

But yeah, I was a fan of Flip. For a long time. And Girl, Chocolate, Toy Machine, Anti Hero...a lot of those brands from that/my era as a teen. I followed everything they did so hard back then. so, it has sucked to see some of them fall off so badly.

I guess you know how I felt when G&S fell off.

[ChrisSennsGirlfriend]

Expand Quote

boards/graphics, ads, anything 'art' direction... always complete dogshit. the image/narrative they put out there into the world via their ads and whatnot was random and scattershot at best, but more frequently just incredibly cringe (rowley and daveed flipping off the camera in the 'appleyard hurt our feelings by leaving for more $' ad)

[close]

I don't think I completely agree with this.
The Rowley/Daveed flipping off ad was awful, but the earlier ones - The Rune carlsberg rip off, Penny Oxford Uni ads, etc. were pretty dope.
They'd stand out as they might be the only ad in the mag not to feature a trick and to perhaps convey some of the personality of the skaters. Especially Rune and Tom, actually (and Andy Scott should get a mention here)...as they we're definitely a little more of an unknown quantity.
I think that carried through to the Bastien and Arto Sorry era ads.

that's a valid perspective, but one i disagree with.

for context my comment is in regard to '98 forward since that's when i first picked up a board, but regardless i don't remember those 4-ish years leading up to sorry in those terms.

i remember CARTOON graphics. cliche drug inspired pseudo-psychedelic art that didn't belong in public, except maybe on a t-shirt you'd get for free with each purchase of an acrylic bong from a strip mall head shop. (mushrooms! cheech and chong! MORE mushrooms!) MORE CARTOON GRAPHICS. lame uninspired parodies. MORE DRUGS! MORE CARTOON GRAPHICS!!

more specific to your point regarding ads showing the riders personalities instead of just more skating: i remember bastien dressed up as an exaggerated version of what a white person would think of a black 'pimp' as looking like. i remember arto in generic punk gear holding a razor scooter. i remember thinking what the fuck am i looking at? this is supposed to endear brand interest, and not just a collective shrug, or outright hostility?

[KDP]

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boards/graphics, ads, anything 'art' direction... always complete dogshit. the image/narrative they put out there into the world via their ads and whatnot was random and scattershot at best, but more frequently just incredibly cringe (rowley and daveed flipping off the camera in the 'appleyard hurt our feelings by leaving for more $' ad)

[close]

I don't think I completely agree with this.
The Rowley/Daveed flipping off ad was awful, but the earlier ones - The Rune carlsberg rip off, Penny Oxford Uni ads, etc. were pretty dope.
They'd stand out as they might be the only ad in the mag not to feature a trick and to perhaps convey some of the personality of the skaters. Especially Rune and Tom, actually (and Andy Scott should get a mention here)...as they we're definitely a little more of an unknown quantity.
I think that carried through to the Bastien and Arto Sorry era ads.

[close]

that's a valid perspective, but one i disagree with.

for context my comment is in regard to '98 forward since that's when i first picked up a board, but regardless i don't remember those 4-ish years leading up to sorry in those terms.

i remember CARTOON graphics. cliche drug inspired pseudo-psychedelic art that didn't belong in public, except maybe on a t-shirt you'd get for free with each purchase of an acrylic bong from a strip mall head shop. (mushrooms! cheech and chong! MORE mushrooms!) MORE CARTOON GRAPHICS. lame uninspired parodies. MORE DRUGS! MORE CARTOON GRAPHICS!!

more specific to your point regarding ads showing the riders personalities instead of just more skating: i remember bastien dressed up as an exaggerated version of what a white person would think of a black 'pimp' as looking like. i remember arto in generic punk gear holding a razor scooter. i remember thinking what the fuck am i looking at? this is supposed to endear brand interest, and not just a collective shrug, or outright hostility?

Yeah, I'm with you on the graphics, 100%. I think they were just going for that whole "World made a lot of money selling cartoon graphics to kids" angle so stuck with that.
...and I mean, those boards were EVERYWHERE so it was probably hard for them to see how bad they were.
They when they first got a computer and started to do graphics on there and move away from cartoons...somehow they got REALLY bad.
But the team and their overall image carried at that point, still.

I feel like the Bastien Pimp ad was bad, yes. Not every ad hit but there were enough classics in there for you to look past the average or bad one.

[Hefe43]

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To stand by Flip a bit, weren't they the first company to really bring people from everywhere in the same place? It seems like they're the first real international team at the time, the skaters where all gathered from around the globe. At least it wasn't all for nothing.

[close]

Powell was the first superteam.
Plan B was the first street superteam.
Flip was the first international superteam.

Now when you build a superteam, Think about this for a second, when cultivating talent you either have to strike big in free agency, or you have to raise them up in the draft. Dwindle historically I would say had the best of the farming systems I’ve personally witnessed, I mean shit it’s like you could literally show up anywhere on the fucking planet and a lil rippin 11 year old was getting flowed boards from dwindle somehow, so props to them. Either way, cultivating talent worldwide is tough fucking business if you want to maintain a coherent branding/relevancy. Luckily with skateboarding we have Instagram, and most kids use that these days even though I find it utterly deplorable, to each his own, I despise it but I realize it’s for the greater good, and it’s caught on/convenient to global markets. I think what Flip had in terms of talent cultivation will be sustainable in the future, especially if the farming system is developed to a professional quality akin to the Spurs in the NBA. Back in those days though they basically had all the outcasts outside the US who were as good/better than our top pros jump onto the same team due to the gatekeepers lack of media exposure internationally. Arto got hurt, etc. etc. a lot of shit happened and it’s a long post. Well they didn’t have the farming system to keep going unless they tapped into the US market and other stuff outside of their base culture. This destroyed their branding significantly. Look at USA companies or Cliche, they were localized enough to establish control and dominance of who’s who in terms of young rippers. We haven’t really ever had a global brand last in terms of relevancy of image/riders, and making a global super team last is even fucking harder. I mean it’s doable, but not in the model they developed. Like if you want to bank on free agents at the global level it’s not going to fucking work now since every market is amassing rippers. I think a global brand from the good guys will also be very difficult with the current setup of the industry. Anglophonic culture is historically built upon the backs of coyotes, but most other cultures are built on the backs of roadrunners. What gives the US market such an inherent advantage, is that our racial plurality achieves a good combination of the two. Being a roadrunner on steroids beats a regular roadrunner. Most companies these days are run by a good combination of the two to deal with global markets, and to be agile/flexible to solving problems.

You’re a moron and your insights on EVERYTHING are lame as fuck.

Neen yourself

[fs1/2cab]

I thought I would see more Flip boards in Berlin, now that they made Denny pro. But no.
There were two guys at my local park this weekend. (East suburbs of Berlin)
One was doing flatground fakie wheelies through the (small) park and the other tried to learn ollies.
Both with a Flip deck and Tensor Trucks and the most yellow wheels I've ever seen.

They seemed a bit grumpy. The one guy said to his homie, that he can't stand it when there are pro-skaters at the park and made everyone else look like a beginner.
(I was the only other skater there 🤣 and I am definitely not a pro.)

[applejuice]

No one from the United States should've ever been allowed onto Flip

[iwishilivedinfinla]

PM me if you happen to have that Penny X Monster X Amsterdam video saved

[DannyDee]

To stand by Flip a bit, weren't they the first company to really bring people from everywhere in the same place? It seems like they're the first real international team at the time, the skaters where all gathered from around the globe. At least it wasn't all for nothing.

Sort of, they def had that great international team during Sorry and Really Sorry, but so much of the team was located in Huntington or the LA area. Obviously, I was hyped when they had Apples as he was the first GTA area skater who really blew up (prior to that some guys had made names for themselves like Weiss, Bokma, Thomas Morgan). Early Flip was really British though (which makes sense). I feel eS and Flip had a similar schtick around the time.