Author Topic: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.  (Read 1505 times)

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Leifkennedy

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This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« on: July 31, 2019, 10:46:12 PM »
There is a peaceful protest in Hawaii island going on right now, the protectors of Mauna Kea are camping out and blocking the entrance to the many observatories that are on top of the sacred land. The protectors aren't going to give up.not only are the protectors camping out and blocking the entrance like 5,000 deep they are all putting there lives at risk from altitude sickness with out a hospital or anything with in idk 86 miles. They are doing this because university California and science Japan and science India and even our very own university Hawaii had decided to make a telescope so they can see further into space and make space discoveries but low-key when Madam Pele (the fire goddess ) causes maunakea to erupt the government will put up a barrier to block the lava for there disgusting broken telescopes(4\7 already useless) yet let all the lava flow in to the people's houses and destroy there homes and say you can't disturb the lava flow of Madam Pele yet when the lava flows into there government assets they tell everyone to beat it and drag out barriers when no one can see. I don't feel they need to look further into space when our planet (water) is already dying and that Mauna kea is a beautiful place just like this planet and we can't keep building on these things or it will be ruined. These people have no common sense, fuck them and there common cents. There no petition that can help I just wanted to raise awareness and have thoughts from fellow diplomats. This is like science versus religion. Telescope versus further disturbing a sacred place where Hawaiian people would go to make offerings to gods and goddesses.
It's so fucked up you give them a inch then they want 6; you give 6 they want a foot; you give them a foot they want a yard. They just keep building and are never satisified.
Ugh thank you.

Rick_Kane

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2019, 12:23:14 PM »
The telescope sounds awesome! Can't wait to see what gets discovered with it. Volcano gods aren't real, you fucking idiots.

homophobicslurs

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2019, 01:26:45 PM »
If those people would use their common cents to buy a cup of coffee and imagine, they would realize how cool it would be to go and walk around space and not just look at magic pictures.
You wouldn't even have this problem.

h00man

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2019, 02:30:26 PM »
Build it. Hawaii has the lowest vote turnout out of all states (at least from what I remember) and 77% of the voters voted to build the telescope back in 2015.

Therefore, build it. The small percentage of people who are protesting it are protesting to show off their Hawaiian bloodline and how America illegal stole Hawaii into statehood.

They are making this a "whiteman vs locals" thing, when in reality, this is a internationally funded project for science.

I live in Hawaii. I know.
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Sick Duck

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2019, 03:02:15 PM »
Build it. Hawaii has the lowest vote turnout out of all states (at least from what I remember) and 77% of the voters voted to build the telescope back in 2015.

Therefore, build it. The small percentage of people who are protesting it are protesting to show off their Hawaiian bloodline and how America illegal stole Hawaii into statehood.

They are making this a "whiteman vs locals" thing, when in reality, this is a internationally funded project for science.

I live in Hawaii. I know.
That’s true but at the same time hawaii is being way too overdeloped and i see why people don’t want this based on principle. The best point i’ve heard is that if that was an old church or some other christian place of importance would they be building there?

h00man

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2019, 04:01:20 PM »
True, Hawaii is becoming a trap for foreign money to pour in. But this isnt a vacation home or illegal airbnb, this for science.

Church? Fuck that shit. This will provide scientific breakthrough for the future of mankind! Not one race, country, or culture.

Don't get me wrong, there can be more done with TMT to giveback to them already giving grants to UH and giving back to the state, maybe something culturally significant to the Mauna to satisfy everyone. But then again you can never satisfy everyone, and people will always complain.

In the end, like I mentioned, people in Hawaii are tired of bearing the weight of foreigners taking away land and not understanding the culture. I don't blame them for that, and they have every right to protest.

Its the one's who take advantage of "I'm Hawaiian and I have no idea of what's going on besides the fact that my culture is being exploited for science".

Like I said, people of Hawaii had a chance to voice their opinions, but they don't vote, then complain about it.
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Sick Duck

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2019, 04:47:58 PM »
I’m not saying they should build a church, i’m saying hypothetically if there had been an old church somewhere and it was an inportant place for christians would they be able to build a giant telescope there? Probably not. I agree with you tho something for science is a whole lot better than a huge hotel or something

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2019, 04:49:13 PM »
And the worst ppl in thisare the ones who realistically have no  or very little polynesian blood but want to use this to show how local they are to their buddies

Rick_Kane

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2019, 06:29:30 PM »
A good chunk of Hawaiian locals like to demonize people for having the audacity to ever leave their place of birth, that way they can feel less bad about being stuck on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with no motivation to ever leave and experience the world outside their immediate bubble.

h00man

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2019, 06:55:24 PM »
A good chunk of Hawaiian locals like to demonize people for having the audacity to ever leave their place of birth, that way they can feel less bad about being stuck on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with no motivation to ever leave and experience the world outside their immediate bubble.

You're semi right. That's why things are slow here technologically. Lots of closed minded, stubborn individuals.
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cilantro

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2019, 05:44:27 AM »
People in this thread acting as if voter suppression isn’t a tactic used to oppress native communities.
I’m hoping this situation doesn’t lead to more of the repetitive “US gov spills native blood while enforcing invasive laws on stolen land”

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2019, 06:34:08 AM »
Traditionally the area has been sacred. Is it still used by the locals that way?
If so, I’m with them, they are the original inhabitants, and users of the area.

As far as I understand, we don’t usually tear down old churches according to vote, if they are still in use.

I feel that just as the environment has been dealt enough damage and now needs us to stop fucking up what little is left, colonizing countries have done more than enough damage to indigenous people, and now needs to stop taking anything else, if not start returning land and artifacts back to them.
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cilantro

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2019, 06:42:31 AM »
Traditionally the area has been sacred. Is it still used by the locals that way?
If so, I’m with them, they are the original inhabitants, and users of the area.

As far as I understand, we don’t usually tear down old churches according to vote, if they are still in use.

I feel that just as the environment has been dealt enough damage and now needs us to stop fucking up what little is left, colonizing countries have done more than enough damage to indigenous people, and now needs to stop taking anything else, if not start returning land and artifacts back to them.
Nah but dumbasses think this is some atheist vs religion battle. how fuckn dense do you have to be to believe that the built up generations of trauma natives have endured is rendered moot because of a volcano god

SHIREFLIP

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2019, 08:43:42 AM »
There are already observatories on the mountain? What’s the difference with this new one?

The news only wants to tell me how pissed people are, and not the specifics of why they are pissed.

Stephens Lawyer

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2019, 10:42:06 AM »
Expand Quote
Traditionally the area has been sacred. Is it still used by the locals that way?
If so, I’m with them, they are the original inhabitants, and users of the area.

As far as I understand, we don’t usually tear down old churches according to vote, if they are still in use.

I feel that just as the environment has been dealt enough damage and now needs us to stop fucking up what little is left, colonizing countries have done more than enough damage to indigenous people, and now needs to stop taking anything else, if not start returning land and artifacts back to them.
[close]

Nah but dumbasses think this is some atheist vs religion battle. how fuckn dense do you have to be to believe that the built up generations of trauma natives have endured is rendered moot because of a volcano god

rick kane is 0.972 g/cm3

h00man

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2019, 11:04:30 AM »
There are already observatories on the mountain? What’s the difference with this new one?

The news only wants to tell me how pissed people are, and not the specifics of why they are pissed.

They are supposed to tear down the old ones for this new one. A lot of people are pissed because the old ones are still up, while they begin constructing the new one.

Like I mentioned, this is for the benefit of all mankind. People in Hawaii drive lifted Toyota Tacomas and pretend they are in it for the environmental reasons. They aren't. This is literally a "white man taking my land" issue. That is literally it.

There are a lot of people of Hawaiian blood who want this telescope built.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/23/tmt-supporters-say-they-are-silent-majority/

At the same time, its ironic how astrology led the first Hawaiian people to Hawaii on their canoe voyage. They used the stars to guide them to their final home.

Now, stars are suddenly not important to culture...

Edit: Owner of one of the Big Island's largest LOCAL supermarket chain gives his opinions on TMT:

https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2019/04/21/opinion/please-support-tmt-astronomy/

Also ironic, lots of TMT opponents tried to boycott KTA for the owner giving his opinion. Let me remind you that this is the Big Island's largest LOCAL supermarket.

Let me also add that the combined power of the two telescopes already built on Mauna Kea, has  helped in the first images of the FIRST black hole ever photographed. Imagine what TMT can do.

Also, TMT opponents also pulled this dumbass stunt:

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/19/second-day-tmt-protesters-slow-traffic-h-freeway/

 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:20:37 AM by h00man »
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weon

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2019, 05:32:26 PM »
I am not native hawai'ian nor would i define myself as a local, but I live in the islands as well and thought I'd share what I see and hear from here as a UH affiliated scientist myself.

As you said, native Hawai'ians (or kānaka maoli or kānaka 'oiwi—NOT the same as locals/kama'aina) have always had a connection to science such as astronomy, ecology, and sustainable practices long before western contact. This protest is not against science, it is about always being subjected to outside interests whether it is diluting and selling the local culture for tourism, determining who or what entity has stewardship over the land, and simply, to have their voices heard. Some have said the kia'i/protectors of Maunakea do not have a joint goal or purpose, but they are all reacting to the same thing: pain and powerlessness.

Maunakea has always been a piko (center of the universe) for the kānaka. Back in the day no one lived up there, and they rarely went up there—it was the domain of the gods, not of humans. Regardless of the religious connection, it essentially was deemed a protected area/natural reserve to be left to its own devices. Unfortunately, since the 1960's the local government (which is always more locals than kanaka) and UH have taken the reins of what to do with this land and have proposed observatories on Maunakea, which kanaka AND locals have been opposing since. These are the same people that protested using the hawai'ian island of kaho'olawe as a bomb testing range by the US military in the 70s, and they are the same exact kupuna/elderly that are refusing to leave Maunakea. These kupuna, who were beaten by Americans as children for speaking their native tongue, inadvertently started a cultural renaissance for the kanaka language and culture, which has materialized into this protest.

There are already 13 observatories on Maunakea, 5 of which are supposed to be decommissioned and taken down. In the past, both the government and the UH system have been held accountable for misuse of those lands and leaving them worse than they were: damaging the local ecosystem, and at times even illegally building more observatories. How can the kanaka trust this won't be more of the same? It's been breached too many times. People have told me "not building the TMT means Hawai'ians shooting themselves on the foot," but to me it appears it's either shooting themselves on the foot or getting stabbed in the heart once again, except this time you made your voice even louder. It is not about the science or the telescope, it's about having a say on what is happening in THEIR land and to THEIR culture. Oh so they thrash their land while they ride their boosted pickups? So what? People do that elsewhere too, in THEIR lands. The solution there is that they have to (and want to!) restore the aloha 'aina/love for the land in the local community through education and outreach—furthering this cultural renaissance. It's the same when people compare Kamehameha uniting the islands through war to the American takeover: this is THEIR history, not outsiders calling the shots.

As some friends and colleagues have told me, this is the very same land and culture that everyone wants to come see on vacation. You know, get their fake leis, drink their mai tais, surf in Waikīkī, and have locals perform luaus for entertainment. All of which is now spilling towards residential areas as well (thanks AirBnB!). It is this very culture that makes living here magical. Personally, moving from my home country to the US was hard in many ways, but moving from the mainland to Hawai'i has done wonders for my mental health and my "soul" (or "spirit" or whatever that means to you personally). To me it's not a hyperbole when I say that you can feel the aloha in the air, and that is solely because of the kanaka culture that has managed to weave itself into the social fabric of the state of hawai'i. The kanaka have given so much, whether by generosity or force, and the US and local government (and as you say, even international governments) take and give a tenth in return. The same goes for us transplants. If you move here, I believe there is a duty to learn the history, respect the culture, and give back to Hawai'i and its people in order to stop this more than century old exploitation, and work towards reducing or ending our colonialist impact.

Sure, there might be millions of dollars through the THINK fund coming into local schools, but can that make reparations for continued and sustained heartbreak? Can multigenerational heartbreak and the suppression of a culture even be quantified? Obviously people have different answers at this junction, but I personally think it doesn't. Any other cause could have rallied the kanaka to provide a stand against this source of pain—but this is it, and here we are. I admire the TMT and think it is an amazing feat of science and of humanity. In some way, I would love for it to belong to Hawai'i and its people. But not at this cost. Especially when a secondary location in the Canary Islands has been pre-approved.

Plenty of UH scientists, both kanaka and otherwise, oppose the building of the TMT for a multitude of reasons. The protesters/protectors at Maunakea have been incredibly peaceful. Everyone that joins them must go through an orientation and adhere to kapu aloha: acting only with kindness and love. No drugs allowed, no smoking allowed, trash is taken down from Maunakea every day, volunteers feed and care for the kupuna, and they run workshops on hawai'ian culture. Yet Governor Ige blatantly lied and said it was a haven for violence and lawlessness, and declared a state of emergency sending law enforcement from neighboring islands to Maunakea, making kanaka arrest kanaka in a visibly painful event. Yet when he finally made an appearance at Pu'u Huluhulu, he was received with hugs and leis—nothing but aloha. Here there are a lot of people who try to show respect and maintain things civil, but it is true that (particularly in social media) there are pretty awful things being said from both sides, such as disavowing other's heritages solely based on their opinion on this. There's pain to go around twice over.

That's all I have rn. Thank you.

Also h00man, if you have been able to find the statistics of those star advertiser polls, i'd appreciate them. What I have heard is that most of those have been of relatively small sample sizes, and have polled more white and/or local people than kanaka. However, I have not been able to actually find the metadata about it to verify this.

Some readings:
- https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-hawaii?__twitter_impression=true
- https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02304-1?fbclid=IwAR22mqShy13LyTBnaOA2mg32qWeiriWWFdiMhr4jM5Yf4zqbM7tfn-vpYh4
- https://psmag.com/news/scientists-voice-their-support-for-native-hawaiians-protesting-the-thirty-meter-telescope
- https://medium.com/@chanda/an-urgent-plea-to-astronomers-d193d7c0eabe
- https://medium.com/@akkagawa/maunakea-redirecting-the-lens-onto-the-culture-of-mainstream-science-5d3a5a12376a
- https://massivesci.com/notes/mauna-kea-thirty-meter-telescope-colonialism-astronomy/
- https://hehiale.wordpress.com/2015/04/03/we-live-in-the-future-come-join-us/
- https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/101135/1/Salazar_Joseph_r.pdf
- https://www.latrobe.edu.au/staff-profiles/data/docs/fjcollins.pdf

If you feel like supporting the kia'i:
Donate
KAHEA: http://bit.ly/2JT2bTa
HUI: www.protectmaunakea.net
HULI: www.paypal.com/paypalme2/hulinvda
BAIL: www.hawaiicommunitybailfund.org

Donate airfare miles (2 forms)
http://bit.ly/2Y0LrTW
http://bit.ly/2Z38WI9

Petitions
Moore Foundation: http://bit.ly/30GHTCW
Stop TMT: http://bit.ly/2M5IwSs

Social Media
@protectmaunakea
@kakoohaleakala
@hawanemusic
@puuhuluhulu
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:23:39 PM by Weon »
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h00man

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2019, 06:11:19 PM »
Thanks Weon! Good read and I definitely will take into consideration your post.

I've gotten some stats from news reports I've seen/heard on the local news stations at the time this was put into a vote, but came across this:

https://www.maunakeaandtmt.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/TMT.HawaiiIslandPoll.July2016.pdf

Not sure if its the best source to be citing, but there are some numbers there.

There's this as well:

https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/2018/03/26/hawaii-news/poll-shows-strong-public-support-for-thirty-meter-telescope/

You do bring up good points. I think there's definitely room for both sides to agree on something in the middle.
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weon

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2019, 06:16:58 PM »
Thanks Weon! Good read and I definitely will take into consideration your post.

I've gotten some stats from news reports I've seen/heard on the local news stations at the time this was put into a vote, but came across this:

https://www.maunakeaandtmt.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/TMT.HawaiiIslandPoll.July2016.pdf

Not sure if its the best source to be citing, but there are some numbers there.

There's this as well:

https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/2018/03/26/hawaii-news/poll-shows-strong-public-support-for-thirty-meter-telescope/

You do bring up good points. I think there's definitely room for both sides to agree on something in the middle.

And thank you, dude. I feel very strongly because I believe Hawai'i has given me a lot, and I wish I could give it more back. Cheers <3
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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 10:02:10 PM »
They oughtta build 10 more.
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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2019, 02:08:14 AM »
That telescope seems v shalom, 
But not building it v aloha

We can only hope for both parties to not cause mud and that peaceful negotiations  leed to Shaloha

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2019, 07:28:51 AM »
Id say the tele scopes thing is countries compeating with eachother more then being useful, helpful or 'for science'.  Waayy better uses for $.
  Hawwains are def getting shitted on.
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Sick Duck

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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2019, 01:09:53 PM »
Id say the tele scopes thing is countries compeating with eachother more then being useful, helpful or 'for science'.  Waayy better uses for $.
  Hawwains are def getting shitted on.
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Re: This telescope on Mauna Kea shouldn't be built.
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2019, 10:21:08 PM »
What might this telescope do to benefit
Mankind that justifies the destruction of an important place?