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In response to Xen: I’m basically looking for the closest thing to Ace that’s not Ace. China Indy’s seem to be a Stage 12 in a sense but alternative trucks get my truck madness boner going. I tried out some 161 Thunders and like you, even with cast plates and Thunder risers it’s wheelbite city. So between Theeve and Tensor ATG’s, which would you say is the closest to Ace? Thanks for your detailed info so far man.
Huh what?
How are they different?
And weren't the Ti hangers made in China from the beginning? And Stage 11 forged base plates?
Yup, forged plates were always done overseas. They never had that setup at Ermico. Same with Thunder and Venture forged plates.
As for the "soft" stage XII thing. Personal opinion, I'm going to disagree. Unless you're counting the fact the urethane components are different (definitely better) and the aluminum texturing (more refined) is slightly different. The height, width, meat on the hanger, and yoke, are completely the same, you could interchange the hangers and plates. If you upgrade the pivot cups and bushings on a USA stage XI, it's going to be almost impossible to tell them apart. If you look at the difference between stage VII and VIII you have a massive cosmetic overhaul, or stage X and stage XI which have the difference between not turning and turning fantastically. There's no such difference between a USA and China made stage XI.
Thanks. I remember ppl talking about this now. I think someone might have called it Stage 11.5 too. I've got some opinions on that and I'm thinking no real change too, should be just cosmetic.
Before I get into that..
Is a Stage 10 forged base plate different than Stage 11 forged?
Besides the design on the bottom, and Stage 10 says made in USA.
I've got some Stage 10 plates with the goofy long kingpin..
Most of my casting knowledge comes from reading about automotive stuff (like cylinder heads) and watching how it's made shows on tv. Foundries and casting are interesting to me.
As I understand casting...
I thinking about hangers here..
You start with a master that looks just like your finished product. You use this master to make cores. Cores are made from sand like mud/clay, it's packed around the cores and baked solid? The cores wear out and are disposable, they're like sandstone and can erode. That master you wanna protect with your life..
The master probably doesn't look like 1 hanger; it's gonna be 6, 8, 12 hangers in a shape that'll fit in the casting "box".
Molten Al is poured into 1 end of the box and flows to the bottom. Or poured from 2 points and flows to the center. Flowing to the center can cause issues as the alloy is cooler when it meets and might not fuse together properly, they'll be a tiny "crack" there or one could start there.
I'm pretty sure the mold holds the axles and they're cast in, drilling and press-fit doesn't seem like a good idea here.
Cores are made from sand but that tech has evolved too. Look at OEM aluminum cylinder heads from the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc and you'll see the casting quality get better, there is progressively less and less texture thru the decades. I'm guessing they were able to use finer grain sand.
Some places use dies (metal molds) instead of casting, this should give a smoother surface finish.
The newest casting tech I've seen (and I haven't paid attention in years) is the green sand for molds. Think it makes a smoother surface and the molds last longer. Also think they do something like add oil to the sand to help it hold together.
Polishing..
Google stuff like REM chem, REM ISF, or isotropic superfinishing.
It's just done in a huge vibratory tumbler that looks like a giant bundt cake mold. Uses ceramic media and you can do it wet (water) or dry. REM also uses a mild acid to "pickle" the metal surface.
You get lotsa aluminum dust and it might be mixed with water.. In Cali I'd guess you can't just send that to the water treatment plant, idk, maybe you can without EPA hassles. China? Probably send that water wherever you want. Gutters, rivers, whatever.
I could see them polishing stuff a lil more just cuz of this. Then factor in lower energy and labor costs? Larger factory? More tumblers? Sure, leave the stuff in the polisher for a lil longer, we're still making $$$$$$$$
So what?
If the factory moves from one part of SF to another does the Stage change cuz the surface finish looks better? New factory has a better polishing system..
Did the dimensions change? Are they still using the same master? Just send those to China, right?
And this stuff is CAD designed now, right? Really easy to whip up a fresh master..
Cheap labor in China means more time/man-hours for guys to make molds, better quality molds for the same prices, and replacing those molds more often. With that alone you could get better surface finish. Just a change in the casting sand could do that..
I already said they could polish the stuff more too
Bushings? Too small a change to matter to me and those might have changed at anytime without us knowing. Who's really checking pivot bushings with every Indy delivery? They were sneaking Supercush bushings into the Ti trucks for how long before ppl noticed?
Some stuff on casting
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Metal-Casting-Part-1&A=112614 http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Metal-Casting-Part-2&A=112615http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Metal-Casting-Part-3&A=112616