Israel's right to exist

[Banned from the room]

Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...

[disintegration]

I went to The West Bank in 2015 with SkatePal to build/teach kids and I'd just like to say that having opinions about the situation is fine but you really have no real understanding and perspective until you've experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian living there. I don't really know where to start. This video is from an Israeli Jew who's father was a founding member of the IDF. His account of life is very honest and he has no reason to lie.

[brycickle]

If none of you interested in this have listened to the first iteration of the Martyr Made podcast, you should.

[Hevonen]

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care

[disintegration]

Expand Quote

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care

Why is standing in solidarity with Palestinians losing their country and standing up against oppression and apartheid anti-Semitic?

[Ok]

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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care

[close]

Why is standing in solidarity with Palestinians losing their country and standing up against oppression and apartheid anti-Semitic?

This is another reason it has been very difficult for me to empathize with Israel: the framing of ANY criticism as antisemitism. That is a red herring strategy designed with the purpose to illicit emotional ‘arguments’ such as ‘Israel’s right to exist’, which makes it sound like Israel is on the losing side of something. A cursory glance around the disparity between the lives of those inside of Israel and those living in Palestine snow quite the opposite.

Thanks for the conversations so far.

Thanks for the links.

[brycickle]

And, I mean, technically speaking, being anti-Palestinian is also being anti-semitic.

[Davethedavedave]

Its a stupid situation on both sides and murica should have never got involved

[Sidewalk Funk.]

My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.

I don't understand where you're going here - you say you support a two state solution later in this thread, yet here you wonder why people would support a Palestinian state and claim the reason people do support Palestine is because it's trendy or because they're anti-Semitic? It couldn't be that support is growing for Palestine as more people around the world become aware and knowledgeable of the situation? Also it seems like if you really do support a two state solution you would understand why people support a Palestinian state and you wouldn't dismiss their support as simply following a trend or being anti-Semitic.

Furthermore people do care about the formation of an independent Kurdistan. A lot of people actually. Regardless, these situations are vastly different from one another for so many reasons and have their own complications. It is totally reasonable for a person to support one situation and not necessarily support (or support as strongly) the other.

[Sidewalk Funk.]

2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.

I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.

The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.

The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).

Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.

Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?

[OldieButFrenchie]

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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

first, regarding your comment above regarding that crystal clear map--it is not "misleading," it does not say that Israel existed in 1946, it says clearly "Jewish Land" and then "Israeli Land" after 1947, which obviously are two corresponding geographical points on one historical/political trajectory.

regarding the bolded section above, why do you keep making this kind of rhetorical move? what does the Turks being there before, do for your argument? what do you want us all to take away from your comment regarding France's appetites, insecurities, and actions based off of the fact that "Algeria...wasn't a free country before the French came"? And how will this point--since you brought it up in this thread--help the rest of us understand "Israel's right to exist" when it is so absolutely at the expense of a population of people who had been there before it existed.

damn it how am I going to answer all of you....Well I guess it's true I started the thread, so I'll try.

First, you are right about the map, I take it back.

Second, I was not trying a "rethorical move", but again trying to provide context. Ie: grabbing land by violence is the rule, not the exception in the history of the world. And that applies to the creation of Israel, I believe.

[OldieButFrenchie]

Wait so you made this thread and now don’t want to discuss anything? Seems to me you just wanted your opinion validated. And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism? So since the Kurds aren’t fighting Israel... no one cares? If so, that is pretty fucked dude. Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.

The UN didn’t get to “carve it out” bc a civil war broke out in 1947 almost immediately after it was implemented and that war led to the creation of israel. The UN resolution on the partitioning of Palestine had been implemented but had to be cancelled. Two-states + jerusalem or something like that. Sounds real nice today...

It is easy to forget that tons of other countries were involved too, such as Britain and the US, in order to keep their interests in the area untouched. So i guess ‘mericans and brits are allowed in the discussion too? Whether they know it or not, they reaped the domestic benefits of their country’s actions abroad. Why do ppl think we shouldn’t discuss this as ardently if we are not immediately affected? Or are you talking more specifically about shouting matches or something? Not to be the “starving children” guy, but people are dying tragically and preventably every single day, not only in the OPT but all over the world—I think we are allowed to feel some type of way about it. It is also good to recognize we are outsiders, but if we didn’t have an opinion on these events, now that would be a bigger problem... Humans are intrinsically emotional, social, and political. Unfortunately sometimes it’s too much to handle for any one person, but we should at least try to engage in difficult topics with our head on our shoulders and our heart on our sleeve every now and then. Genuinely. I’m corny sure, but we can’t put horseblinders on and ignore other peoples’ struggles for our whole lives. Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...

I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.

But also, tons of crazy fucked up shit is said on SLAP by random kooks and even pals. Sometimes you just hit the “Ignore” and move along...

nah I just had one of those nights where you barely sleep and then did not feel like arguing on the internet. I generally don't like arguing on the Internet, which is why I regretted creating the thread....But it just bothered me too much to see no one reacting.
yes you are right:
I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.


also I never said that:
And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism?

I meant the fact that cause attracts so much sympathy compared to other causes stems from 1/antisemitism. And 2/anti-americanism.

Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.

no I did not imply that. I brought up the ottoman empire (the Turks) because most anti-colonialists act as if only western countries were imperialistic. Tottally forgetting the whole of the middle east was ruled by the Turks for 400 years or so. And yes we can agree colonialism is "bad", in the sense war is "bad", but neither of them will ever stop.

[OldieButFrenchie]

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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care

I agree with that generally. But when I say part of the support for the Palestinian cause stems from antisemitism, I speak from experience, it's something I had to break friendships over. Just a personal story: a buddy I used to skate with was so upset about the Middle East he started talking about burning synagogues....in France. That's when I stopped talking to him. This a real story, not some made-up shit. I haven't talked to him since.

[OldieButFrenchie]

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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care

[close]

Why is standing in solidarity with Palestinians losing their country and standing up against oppression and apartheid anti-Semitic?

that is absolutely not what I said. I was talking about the fact that that cause attracts so much sympathy compared to others.

[OldieButFrenchie]

I went to The West Bank in 2015 with SkatePal to build/teach kids and I'd just like to say that having opinions about the situation is fine but you really have no real understanding and perspective until you've experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian living there. I don't really know where to start. This video is from an Israeli Jew who's father was a founding member of the IDF. His account of life is very honest and he has no reason to lie.

seems interesting, thank you. I'll watch it when I have a bit of time. But even him thinks Israel has a right to exist. Which is all I said from the beginning. He supports a one-state solution, but still.

[OldieButFrenchie]

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My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.

[close]

I don't understand where you're going here - you say you support a two state solution later in this thread, yet here you wonder why people would support a Palestinian state and claim the reason people do support Palestine is because it's trendy or because they're anti-Semitic? It couldn't be that support is growing for Palestine as more people around the world become aware and knowledgeable of the situation? Also it seems like if you really do support a two state solution you would understand why people support a Palestinian state and you wouldn't dismiss their support as simply following a trend or being anti-Semitic.

Furthermore people do care about the formation of an independent Kurdistan. A lot of people actually. Regardless, these situations are vastly different from one another for so many reasons and have their own complications. It is totally reasonable for a person to support one situation and not necessarily support (or support as strongly) the other.

you really think "many" people support an independent Kurdistan? Most people I talk to barely know who the kurds are. Or the berbers. And why would you support a palestinian state but not a kurdish one?? Why is it ok for Turkey to military oppress, but not for the IDF? It's a similar situation. Erdogan is just as dangerous as Netanyahu.
(I do agree though that I started this conversation not in the best manner. I was pissed off....and now I am in way over my head cause I really don't have the time to answer all of you intelligently)

[OldieButFrenchie]

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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.

[close]

I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.

The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.

The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).

Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.

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Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?

yes that was what I meant: Israel's ability to form a democracy gives it a "moral high ground" if you will. There are arab members of the Knesset but nowhere in the arab world can you find jewish members of parliament, I don't think so. Everything else you said is true and I cannot disagree with it. But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.


EDIT: I'll try to keep this going for one more day, but I really lack the time to answer everyone. I created the thread in a spur of the moment and a lot of you guys actually gave thought-out answers, which is awesome. So I guess I got what I wanted. But I can't deal with so much internet-arguing so I'll give 24 more hiours and then shut the fuck up for a while.

[Beeda Weeda]

This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

[disintegration]

This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.

[JANUS]

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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

[close]

Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.

[OldieButFrenchie]

This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

it's way bigger than that. The wars were waged with Egypt, Syria and Jordan, mainly, not Palestine. And those 3 countries received Russian aid. Basically another cold war proxy war.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

now that I can agree with!

Also to give you guys an idea of what I mean, when I speak about the Kurds....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_murder_of_Kurdish_activists_in_Paris

So if the Turkish secret service does not hesitate to execute 3 women in the middle of Paris in 2013, imagine what they do in Turkey. Yet noone ever mentions this civil war. Where's the Oxfam boycott ? where's the protests?

[Deputy Wendell]

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?



i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...

[OldieButFrenchie]

Expand Quote

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?



i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...

well it was a different time. 1995.... most people I know (and I grew up in the Paris banlieues) were stoked on seeing themselves (kinda) on the big screen. I remember being so hyped when I came out of the cinema. At that time speaking "verlan" (French ghetto slang) was still pretty unknown outside the Paris region. It was like seeing Kids you know? But I also remember people criticising the movie exactly for that. Saying you'd never see a jewish guy, an Arab and a Black guy being best friends. Which was a valid point, it seemed a bit fake and token. But all this also has to do with the fact hip-hop was very mixed socially when it started in France. You had guys from the projects and guys from super-rich families rapping and writing graffiti together. Vincent Cassel's brother founded one of the first legitimate French rap groups, Assassin. And their father was a famous French actor, Jean-Pierre Cassel.
Today Kassovitz cound NEVER make a movie like that, as he is not from the banlieue himself. And things really have changed in France. I mean a poor Jewish guy like Ilan Halimi was kidnapped, tortured for 3 weeks and finally killed cause some knuckleheads from the projects thought all Jews are rich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians

to illustrate this change in the French mentalities, Vincent Cassel and Said Taghmaoui have actually been feuding on social media lately. (2 of the 3 main actors from La Haine).

shit that was a long answer. It actually is a relief to talk about something less loaded.....

[OldieButFrenchie]

this supposed to be the new La Haine....I haven't seen it yet but I've heard good things.

[Deputy Wendell]

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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?



i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...

[close]

well it was a different time. 1995.... most people I know (and I grew up in the Paris banlieues) were stoked on seeing themselves (kinda) on the big screen. I remember being so hyped when I came out of the cinema. At that time speaking "verlan" (French ghetto slang) was still pretty unknown outside the Paris region. It was like seeing Kids you know? But I also remember people criticising the movie exactly for that. Saying you'd never see a jewish guy, an Arab and a Black guy being best friends. Which was a valid point, it seemed a bit fake and token. But all this also has to do with the fact hip-hop was very mixed socially when it started in France. You had guys from the projects and guys from super-rich families rapping and writing graffiti together. Vincent Cassel's brother founded one of the first legitimate French rap groups, Assassin. And their father was a famous French actor, Jean-Pierre Cassel.
Today Kassovitz cound NEVER make a movie like that, as he is not from the banlieue himself. And things really have changed in France. I mean a poor Jewish guy like Ilan Halimi was kidnapped, tortured for 3 weeks and finally killed cause some knuckleheads from the projects thought all Jews are rich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians

to illustrate this change in the French mentalities, Vincent Cassel and Said Taghmaoui have actually been feuding on social media lately. (2 of the 3 main actors from La Haine).

shit that was a long answer. It actually is a relief to talk about something less loaded.....

nah, i appreciate the insights--La Haine made an impact on us in my part of the states...shit, amongst my graffiti/skater/hip-hop friends and family, and the professors and academics in my life. i've read that it would be impossible to make that movie now

i've lived in Detroit for over 30 years (have family in and round it), and chapters in my dissertation are dealing with the foul realities of Detroit's "rebirth" fiction--and how it leaves out the vast majority of the city's lifelong residents in the peripheral neighborhoods--and the extreme center/periphery paradigm that the Haussmannization of Paris created has been relevant to my work, so the banlieues have inevitably been important as well.

Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project has been useful in my work at points (not sure if you've tussled with it), and i've even had cause to draw from Baudelaire's Paris Spleen (and there's that great scene towards the end of La Haine in the courtyard with a mural of Baudelaire in the background) when discussing the center/periphery divide in Detroit--Detroit is nearly 139 square miles, and only the 7.2 square miles at the center of the city is where almost all of the money is being spent and attention is being aimed, not unlike Paris.

i also wrote something kind of putting Godard's 2 or 3 Things I Know About Her in conversation with La Haine at one point



and i'll look out for that new one you mention...

[Beeda Weeda]

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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

[close]

it's way bigger than that. The wars were waged with Egypt, Syria and Jordan, mainly, not Palestine. And those 3 countries received Russian aid. Basically another cold war proxy war.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

now that I can agree with!

Also to give you guys an idea of what I mean, when I speak about the Kurds....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_murder_of_Kurdish_activists_in_Paris

So if the Turkish secret service does not hesitate to execute 3 women in the middle of Paris in 2013, imagine what they do in Turkey. Yet noone ever mentions this civil war. Where's the Oxfam boycott ? where's the protests?

sorry, I understand that it is way bigger than that, I was trying to offer a small example of the problem. I was naive to  make any general statement over an area held sacred to the 3 Abrahamic religions

[disintegration]

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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

[close]

Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.

[close]

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.

Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.

[Deputy Wendell]

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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

[close]

Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.

[close]

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.

[close]

Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.

in general, “terrorism” is simply what wealthy and powerful countries with armies, air forces, and navies label the tactics of poorer, weaker countries who lack these kinds of resources when at war with them at whatever scale--both ways of fighting wars inevitably involve the killing of “innocent civilians,” and this is always considered acceptable...

[JANUS]

Expand Quote

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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic.  You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid".  When  Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.

religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.

[close]

Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.

[close]

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.

[close]

Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.

I think we are having a misunderstanding.

[OldieButFrenchie]

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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?



i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...

[close]

well it was a different time. 1995.... most people I know (and I grew up in the Paris banlieues) were stoked on seeing themselves (kinda) on the big screen. I remember being so hyped when I came out of the cinema. At that time speaking "verlan" (French ghetto slang) was still pretty unknown outside the Paris region. It was like seeing Kids you know? But I also remember people criticising the movie exactly for that. Saying you'd never see a jewish guy, an Arab and a Black guy being best friends. Which was a valid point, it seemed a bit fake and token. But all this also has to do with the fact hip-hop was very mixed socially when it started in France. You had guys from the projects and guys from super-rich families rapping and writing graffiti together. Vincent Cassel's brother founded one of the first legitimate French rap groups, Assassin. And their father was a famous French actor, Jean-Pierre Cassel.
Today Kassovitz cound NEVER make a movie like that, as he is not from the banlieue himself. And things really have changed in France. I mean a poor Jewish guy like Ilan Halimi was kidnapped, tortured for 3 weeks and finally killed cause some knuckleheads from the projects thought all Jews are rich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians

to illustrate this change in the French mentalities, Vincent Cassel and Said Taghmaoui have actually been feuding on social media lately. (2 of the 3 main actors from La Haine).

shit that was a long answer. It actually is a relief to talk about something less loaded.....

[close]

nah, i appreciate the insights--La Haine made an impact on us in my part of the states...shit, amongst my graffiti/skater/hip-hop friends and family, and the professors and academics in my life. i've read that it would be impossible to make that movie now

i've lived in Detroit for over 30 years (have family in and round it), and chapters in my dissertation are dealing with the foul realities of Detroit's "rebirth" fiction--and how it leaves out the vast majority of the city's lifelong residents in the peripheral neighborhoods--and the extreme center/periphery paradigm that the Haussmannization of Paris created has been relevant to my work, so the banlieues have inevitably been important as well.

Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project has been useful in my work at points (not sure if you've tussled with it), and i've even had cause to draw from Baudelaire's Paris Spleen (and there's that great scene towards the end of La Haine in the courtyard with a mural of Baudelaire in the background) when discussing the center/periphery divide in Detroit--Detroit is nearly 139 square miles, and only the 7.2 square miles at the center of the city is where almost all of the money is being spent and attention is being aimed, not unlike Paris.

i also wrote something kind of putting Godard's 2 or 3 Things I Know About Her in conversation with La Haine at one point



and i'll look out for that new one you mention...

damn you really are an academic! I've never seen that Godard movie and I had never heard of Walter Benjamin. (confession time : Godard usually bores me...good to learn about new stuff on Slap though!)
Now I have to say I'm surprised La Haine had such an impact in the US or abroad generally. The crazy thing IMO is that places like Detroit are in a way worse situation than the Paris banlieue! I mean, I've never been to Detroit but I'm pretty sure the crime rate is multiple times that of the Paris region. I've spent a few months in California in the 90's and it was pretty eye-opening for a French guy. The projects can be shitty around Paris but we don't have guns everywhere and crips and bloods-type gangs. Plus the welfare state in France is still really strong, nothing like the US. If you are an adult and you don't have a job, you get a minimum of 500 euros each month from the state. For life! American ghettoes are fucked in comparison basically.

Just to give you a lighter perspective, check this movie out if you can, "Les Lascars". You could say it's like an anime comedy version of La Haine, with Vincent Cassel again playing the main character. Funny as fuck.




Right....now like I said, I think I need to log off Slap for a week or something....This shit happens to me periodically...I wanna argue about something, cause I need to express an opinion but then the actual arguing just brings me down. So see you guys later.