Author Topic: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)  (Read 1056 times)

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mattchew

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EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« on: August 10, 2020, 09:17:26 AM »
Hi PALS,

As the title suggests, I am looking to move to the EU from the US in about six to nine months.
I have Irish citizenship so I don't need to worry about immigration/visas/etc. and also have a decent chunk of change saved so I can take a month or two to find work after settling in.

I just don't know where to move!

I like skating, making art, playing music, being outside, and am looking for a place with:

a high standard of living/leftist government
decent weather
relatively inexpensive (i.e. I'd like to work as little as possible--making a lot of money isn't important to me, time off is)
english friendly while I learn the language
and ideally don't need a car (moped is fine): either city or countryside works for me.

I have been to a bunch of different countries in Europe, but only while on tour with my band so I don't have the best sense of all these places since it's such quick visits:

Ireland seems to make the most sense because they speak English but it's very boozy/catholic/dreary there...
Berlin seems cool and very English friendly
Barcelona for obvious reasons (haven't been there before though)
Scandinavia for their high standard of living (harsh winters though...)
Italy seems beautiful...

I am very open to ideas and any advice is welcome.
Thanks in advance homies!
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Alan

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 10:51:49 AM »
I've never been to Portugal, but it seems like a very cool place and ticks most of your boxes.

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GumOnMyGrip

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 11:24:22 AM »
^^this, or maybe Spain. Most of the EU is VERY expensive to live in...Italy probably the worst. There are definitely widely different cultural experiences as well.
Scandinavian countries are beautiful but you will likely have a harder time socially, especially if you are interested in dating, friendships etc...
Maybe look a little farther East towards Slovenia?
My personal favorites list based on actual experience in order: Scotland ( I love Scots and scenery is unbeatable), Germany/ Austria, northern Spain/ Basque Country, England, Lithuania.( rough around the edges but friendly people)
Maybe plan on staying more than one place.
Have fun !!

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 11:39:38 AM »
Start from Malm�d go from there.

themeangreen

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 12:03:23 PM »
^^this, or maybe Spain. Most of the EU is VERY expensive to live in...Italy probably the worst. There are definitely widely different cultural experiences as well.
Scandinavian countries are beautiful but you will likely have a harder time socially, especially if you are interested in dating, friendships etc...
Maybe look a little farther East towards Slovenia?
My personal favorites list based on actual experience in order: Scotland ( I love Scots and scenery is unbeatable), Germany/ Austria, northern Spain/ Basque Country, England, Lithuania.( rough around the edges but friendly people)
Maybe plan on staying more than one place.
Have fun !!

Had a job offer in Copenhagen before this pandemic and have been there a few times. Why is it hard to date there? The girls were all very pretty in Norway and Denmark.

RichardBarkley

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 12:16:54 PM »
Dublin Ireland

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 05:58:08 AM »
Barcelona is fantastic for skating and the vibe is really cool. You can just head over to Parallel or MACBA and just chill with other skaters. Everyone speaks English and I didn't use a car the entire time I was there.

London is super cool as well. I had great experiences at Slam City shop and it shares a wall with a bar. 

Thomas

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 07:26:45 AM »
This is very difficult because each country is very different.
I live in Europe and traveled to most big cities, and if I would have to choose a city to live in it would be one of those :
- Copenhagen (lot of spots, very safe, very expensive, winter is complete shit)
- Berlin (lot of spots, very safe, very expensive, winter is complete shit)
- Barcelona (lot of spots, very unsafe, very cheap, winter is a dream)
- Valencia (there are some good spots, very safe, very cheap, winter is a dream)
- Lyon (I live 1h from here)
- London (weather is shit, spots are super rough, but the city is very nice. Also this is probably the most expensive of the list)

Hope it helps.
Possibilities are everywhere, search and enjoy.

beatifk

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2020, 01:26:36 AM »
I'm an american living in Italy and have been living here for the past 6 years. If you're moving to a place for skating and don't want to work too much, Italy is the last place I would look. Pay is shit, taxes are high, and you need a car to get around comfortably because the public transportation is absolutely abysmal. The few skateboarders I've met are cool, and there are little pockets of cool scenes sprinkled throughout the country, but nah, this ain't the place.

Slovenia, the closest neighbor to me, seems cool, but I've only visited there and don't know what it'd be like to live and work there.

I am hoping to move to Lyon soon, but now with all the shit going on, my plans have taken a slight detour.




BieberStance

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2020, 04:23:52 AM »
i am from europe. the last years i lived in copenhagen, berlin and in prague.

Copenhagen is a superexpensive posh pretentious shithole and does not even have alot to offer. has nice parts tho and good skateparks. but you will get over christiania and its charme in like two weeks and then the vibe of the city changes.

berlin is amazing but the jobmarked is tough, especially without higher degrees or a good vita. winter sucks tho. i left after 4 jears because it got a bit stale. but these years i was not really working and i was out skating everyday and partying every weekend. so i experienced and discovered way more of the stuff the city has to offer tin a short period of time han other people in their lifetime.

prague is cheap af. but its less englishspeaking compared to for example berlin. there are more jobs tho. especially nowadays in tech and for skilled fluently english speaking people. they just don´t pay very good if you are not really qualified. life is amazing aswell. good spots, bars, clubs, nice people. and i mentioned cheap as fuck already?

Giza Butler

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2020, 07:00:02 AM »
I'm an american living in Italy and have been living here for the past 6 years. If you're moving to a place for skating and don't want to work too much, Italy is the last place I would look. Pay is shit, taxes are high, and you need a car to get around comfortably because the public transportation is absolutely abysmal. The few skateboarders I've met are cool, and there are little pockets of cool scenes sprinkled throughout the country, but nah, this ain't the place.

Dude! As an Italian, I feel that you have described the country situation perfectly. Kudos to you, hopefully we'll be able to hang around sometimes.

On topic, I've moved to Barcelona 3 years ago and honestly it ticks most of your boxes. Weather is a plus for sure.
The '80s were the worst period. You had these horrible pop bands growing their hair and calling themselves metal.

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2020, 07:21:26 AM »
Ireland is crazy expensive. Rent has skyrocketed in the last few years. The weather is shite. The concrete is crap..I'm Irish.

I moved to a small city in the south of France. The government is pretty socialist here, great health care, great weather. More hoilday's than I like to admit. Great spots. I live an hour or so from Lyon, which is amazing also. Pre-cornona I'd even do day trips to skate there.

Personally if it wasn't for my job I'd be in Biarritz, as I love surfing also.

Just gonna learn French. But depending on what you do for a living loads of folk get buy with fuck all French (I avoid these people like the plague).

PlugSkullcandy

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2020, 08:08:13 AM »
I’m French, so here are some infos about living here.

First of all, I think most people are welcoming here, even if they don’t speak a proper English (older generations for example). I work in the music industry so I work with a lot of English native speakers but I don’t know for other work sectors…

If you need a decent weather I would recommend the southern part of the country. The north / north-west is rainy during winters, and I grew up in the east and it was fog / rain / cold / snow / ice for a few months. The south and south-west are the best for a decent weather all year long.

I think we have a decent standard of living, good hospitals for the most part, and considering you have a Irish citizenship you will have access to healthcare, employment systems I think.

— If you struggle to find a job, go to « Pole Emploi », it’s a governmental agency which registers unemployed people and help them to find jobs etc. They also provide free French lessons I think. French people always bitch and make jokes about French administrations, saying people working here are lazy etc, but they can really help you if you need. Don’t get discouraged by the waiting lines. You also have an unemployment allowance based on your previous work. There is also a recurring status for people working in the entertainment industry (music, cinema, tv, etc)

— When you rent a place, your salary must be 3x your rent, at least in theory. This is what the landlords ask for, but most of the people have photoshopped payslips, my ex boss made me fake ones to rent an apartment when I was younger…

— I think like in most places in the world the easiest jobs to get are in restaurants bars etc.

— Don’t live in Paris unless you have to. My wife and I have to work here, we like the city but damn rents are expensive. If we didn’t pay this rent, we could probably pretend to buy a house by the sea in Brittany haha.

— Smaller cities are obviously cheaper to live in. Tourist places (southwest, south-east etc) can be expensive too.

Skatewise, there are plenty of local skate scenes here. Also a lot of skateparks. The concrete skateparks craze started a few years ago so you can find em in some relatively small cities.

One city I would recommend here is Lyon, because :
— rents are way cheaper than Paris
— good transportation system
— from here you can go to the sea (around Marseille for exemple) or in the Alps in a few hours
— lots of restaurants / venues / art galleries / museums
— great skate scene obviously

We have a great railroad system (even though expensive…) so you can move easily within the country and around (Belgium, England, Swiss, Italy, Spain…). I suppose you are more accustomed to American distances, one thing i like in Europe is that different cultures / landscapes etc are within hundred of km perimeters.

For the government I would considering it right-wing, I’m not into Macron politic stances, but I have French standards I think.

I have friends living in Barcelona and they love it too. Also have a friend living in Italy and she made similar comments as some Pals here. Went to Germany a few months (Berlin, Hamburg and Mainz) 10 years ago but I mostly crashed on friends couches making music, partying and watching skate videos and life seemed cool in these cities, but I was 21 so that doesn’t count.

Hope this helps you. Europe has a lot of different cultures to offer, so I think you will find something that ticks all the boxes.

Good luck!

sexualhelon

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2020, 08:40:21 AM »
This is very difficult because each country is very different.
I live in Europe and traveled to most big cities, and if I would have to choose a city to live in it would be one of those :
- Copenhagen (lot of spots, very safe, very expensive, winter is complete shit)
- Berlin (lot of spots, very safe, very expensive, winter is complete shit)
- Barcelona (lot of spots, very unsafe, very cheap, winter is a dream)
- Valencia (there are some good spots, very safe, very cheap, winter is a dream)
- Lyon (I live 1h from here)
- London (weather is shit, spots are super rough, but the city is very nice. Also this is probably the most expensive of the list)

Hope it helps.



I'm gonna copy the format above ^:

- Copenhagen (lot of spots, very safe, very expensive(unless you live there and earn a local salary), winter is complete shit) + amazing parks, good biking scene, everything close together

- Barcelona (entire city is a skatepark, city seems to embrace skateboarding, huge skate scene, cheap(most people say it's cheap but they mean it's cheap as a tourists. Local salaries aren't so good), perfect weather). I didn't ever feel unsafe there. Paris probably feels sketchier to me. Just use common sense and in most cases you're good.

- London (weather is shit, spots are super rough, expensive - local salaries tend to be low, depending on what you do, most diverse)

- Berlin.  I'm currently living here now and it's chill but you'll run into a lot of aspiring techno dj's and people just here for the party scene. Kind of annoying depending on what you're into. Berlin reminds me of LA, just replace cars with bikes. You can't really skate around because the roads are mostly cobblestone so you bike from spot to spot.  It's not uncommon to bike 10km one way to get to some skate spot. It ends up people kind of stay in their local hoods. Berlin itself is pretty cheap - I'd say cheaper than Barcelona or at least similar. The main difference is rent prices. If you find a cheap place to rent in Berlin, your golden, but that's not the easiest thing to do - especially if you don't speak German. If you venture out of the popular neighborhoods in Berlin then you're going to need some basic German. But really,  you're going to feel a bit isolated at some point wherever you are if you don't learn some of the local language. You're also going to have a rough time finding a job here if you don't speak German unless you work in tech. Still easier if you speak some German. Berlin's got tons of parks/lakes/green space if you're into that.

If you have any Berlin specific questions, just give me a shout. I like Barcelona, personally, but Lisbon is also nice. Sofia, Bulgaria is also rad. Good skate scene and the weather's not complete shit. Hard question to answer though, man. You really gotta just roll the dice and see how you like the city you choose to try out first.

Síota

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2020, 05:26:39 AM »
I’m French, so here are some infos about living here.

First of all, I think most people are welcoming here, even if they don’t speak a proper English (older generations for example). I work in the music industry so I work with a lot of English native speakers but I don’t know for other work sectors…

If you need a decent weather I would recommend the southern part of the country. The north / north-west is rainy during winters, and I grew up in the east and it was fog / rain / cold / snow / ice for a few months. The south and south-west are the best for a decent weather all year long.

I think we have a decent standard of living, good hospitals for the most part, and considering you have a Irish citizenship you will have access to healthcare, employment systems I think.

— If you struggle to find a job, go to « Pole Emploi », it’s a governmental agency which registers unemployed people and help them to find jobs etc. They also provide free French lessons I think. French people always bitch and make jokes about French administrations, saying people working here are lazy etc, but they can really help you if you need. Don’t get discouraged by the waiting lines. You also have an unemployment allowance based on your previous work. There is also a recurring status for people working in the entertainment industry (music, cinema, tv, etc)

— When you rent a place, your salary must be 3x your rent, at least in theory. This is what the landlords ask for, but most of the people have photoshopped payslips, my ex boss made me fake ones to rent an apartment when I was younger…

— I think like in most places in the world the easiest jobs to get are in restaurants bars etc.

— Don’t live in Paris unless you have to. My wife and I have to work here, we like the city but damn rents are expensive. If we didn’t pay this rent, we could probably pretend to buy a house by the sea in Brittany haha.

— Smaller cities are obviously cheaper to live in. Tourist places (southwest, south-east etc) can be expensive too.

Skatewise, there are plenty of local skate scenes here. Also a lot of skateparks. The concrete skateparks craze started a few years ago so you can find em in some relatively small cities.

One city I would recommend here is Lyon, because :
— rents are way cheaper than Paris
— good transportation system
— from here you can go to the sea (around Marseille for exemple) or in the Alps in a few hours
— lots of restaurants / venues / art galleries / museums
— great skate scene obviously

We have a great railroad system (even though expensive…) so you can move easily within the country and around (Belgium, England, Swiss, Italy, Spain…). I suppose you are more accustomed to American distances, one thing i like in Europe is that different cultures / landscapes etc are within hundred of km perimeters.

For the government I would considering it right-wing, I’m not into Macron politic stances, but I have French standards I think.

I have friends living in Barcelona and they love it too. Also have a friend living in Italy and she made similar comments as some Pals here. Went to Germany a few months (Berlin, Hamburg and Mainz) 10 years ago but I mostly crashed on friends couches making music, partying and watching skate videos and life seemed cool in these cities, but I was 21 so that doesn’t count.

Hope this helps you. Europe has a lot of different cultures to offer, so I think you will find something that ticks all the boxes.

Good luck!

Sorry I my post wasn't clear, Marcon is a cunt and his government is definitely a bit more right wing than the last but nothing like the other right wing governments in the western world. I'd say France is a very socialist country.

For the rent 3x your salary this isn't a problem in Lyon unless your on minimum wage. Just be aware flats here are rented unfurnished (including appliances) and are a three year lease. You can get furnished apartments but usually the rent is stupidity over priced and they have a one year lease. I've rented some flats that were unfurnished but had some appliances.

knee surgery

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2020, 06:13:23 AM »
For me Barcelona is one of the best places to move (I could be a little biased as I was born and raised there) but here is some intel about the city:

-Best weather all around the year (winter is cold but they are lots of sunny days so is not that harsh)
-Rent is pretty cheap and even if you decide to move to any town by Barcelona i/e Badalona, you will still be near the city centre (30min train ride or even less)
-It is an english friendly city
-Lots of spots
-Lots of shate shops (some of them very friendly - some of them really not)
-Cheap and good food
-It is not a dangerous city, some places are kinda sketchy but if you know how to deal with it there is no problem whatsoever (we all have been in any sort of sketchy situation)
-Watch your belongings everytime
-Learn spanish as soon as possible and even catalan

Hit me up if you have any questions, I hope I helped you

mattchew

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2020, 09:06:47 AM »
So much good info in here, thank you so much dudes. Gnars for everyone. Keep it coming!
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sexualhelon

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2020, 03:11:26 AM »
For me Barcelona is one of the best places to move (I could be a little biased as I was born and raised there) but here is some intel about the city:

-Best weather all around the year (winter is cold but they are lots of sunny days so is not that harsh)
-Rent is pretty cheap and even if you decide to move to any town by Barcelona i/e Badalona, you will still be near the city centre (30min train ride or even less)
-It is an english friendly city
-Lots of spots
-Lots of shate shops (some of them very friendly - some of them really not)
-Cheap and good food
-It is not a dangerous city, some places are kinda sketchy but if you know how to deal with it there is no problem whatsoever (we all have been in any sort of sketchy situation)
-Watch your belongings everytime
-Learn spanish as soon as possible and even catalan

Hit me up if you have any questions, I hope I helped you

Every time someone has told me "Barcelona is sketchy, I had my phone stolen there. Watch your shit" I'm like, "Oh yeah, how'd that go down" They say something like it was NYE and they were blackout drunk on La Rambla. Or they just had their phone sitting out on the table eating food at a busy street then all of a sudden it was gone.

I'll admit that, and maybe it's because people always mention BCN being sketchy, I keep an eye on my shit more there if I put my bag down to skate or something. But in actuality I've never had any issues at all or felt unsafe in BCN.


Some parts of the world are definitely a different kind of sketchy but I think when you here people say BCN is sketchy they're comparing it to wherever they come from in Europe. Like Frankfurt or something. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on people saying BCN being sketchy.

Technique

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2020, 06:26:29 PM »
Vienna pretty much ticks all your boxes and is also very low-key compared to the other suggestions here. Can’t really elaborate further though cause I’ve only visited.

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2020, 02:43:23 AM »
Just wanted to correct that by "unsafe" about Barcelona, it was much linked to pickpockets in transports, or people stealing your camera bag while you are filming. This never happened to me but happened to a few friends.

It feels 10 times more safe to be in Barcelona than in Paris though.
Possibilities are everywhere, search and enjoy.

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2020, 08:11:21 AM »
Prague is the answer.
Easy to find a job, lots of expats, everything is super cheap except rent. You can easily find a flat share tho.
Local skateshop is nuts, Stalin had everything to skate.
City is gorgeous, I lived there for 3 years and I can't wait to come back next year.
Can't think of a better place.

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2020, 10:06:45 AM »
Hi PALS,

As the title suggests, I am looking to move to the EU from the US in about six to nine months.
I have Irish citizenship so I don't need to worry about immigration/visas/etc. and also have a decent chunk of change saved so I can take a month or two to find work after settling in.

I just don't know where to move!

I like skating, making art, playing music, being outside, and am looking for a place with:

a high standard of living/leftist government
decent weather
relatively inexpensive (i.e. I'd like to work as little as possible--making a lot of money isn't important to me, time off is)
english friendly while I learn the language
and ideally don't need a car (moped is fine): either city or countryside works for me.

I have been to a bunch of different countries in Europe, but only while on tour with my band so I don't have the best sense of all these places since it's such quick visits:

Ireland seems to make the most sense because they speak English but it's very boozy/catholic/dreary there...
Berlin seems cool and very English friendly
Barcelona for obvious reasons (haven't been there before though)
Scandinavia for their high standard of living (harsh winters though...)
Italy seems beautiful...

I am very open to ideas and any advice is welcome.
Thanks in advance homies!

I am German and currently living in Frankfurt Main. Two of my skate friends are expats from the US. If you have to work I actually wouldn‘t really recommend moving to Berlin. Apart from its great nightlife and all the good spots it has become pretty expensive and wages are fairly bad. I would recommend Leipzig if you want a low cost of living and a young creative place. Wages there are just as bad as in Berlin for the most part, but life is much cheaper.
For work the bigger cities in the west are much better: Cologne for example is a great place to live with great skateparks and many young women (due to its universities and it being the center of much of the German marketing and advertisement industry). Rent is not cheap, but it is easy to find work.
I personally like Frankfurt obviously. It is easy to find a job with decent pay. It is probably the most international place in the country and it is not a problem to live and work here if you only speak English. street skating is almost as good as in Berlin. It is however super hard to find an affordable place to live.

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2020, 02:38:06 PM »
Vienna pretty much ticks all your boxes and is also very low-key compared to the other suggestions here. Can’t really elaborate further though cause I’ve only visited.

The place I want to visit most. Before Sunrise made me fall in love with that city lol.

jorge

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2020, 03:11:22 PM »
Travelled a fair bit in Europe and from what I have seen I'm a little surprised there aren't more people saying Lisbon or Portugal here.  Big love for Marseille too.

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2020, 04:57:55 PM »
I gotta get out of the US... various factors but most of all cost of healthcare make me weary of the future. I speak Spanish so Ive been looking into teaching english in Spain, although I assume that market is fairly saturated...

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2020, 08:40:54 PM »
ummmmmmm VATICAN CITY anyone? dude hottest fucking girls dopest spots u never get kicked out of TONS of weed and booze and u might even see the POPE!

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2020, 08:47:36 AM »
I gotta get out of the US... various factors but most of all cost of healthcare make me weary of the future. I speak Spanish so Ive been looking into teaching english in Spain, although I assume that market is fairly saturated...

Not shure. In general I find most Spanish people do not speak english well at all. I have met some English teachers in Santander, Spain, who made it seem as if it was fairly easy to find work teaching English in Spain. Since the Spanish economy has not been doing so well, there must be alot of young adults interested in leaving the country, which would mean they would have to improve their English first....

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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2020, 08:45:49 AM »
ummmmmmm VATICAN CITY anyone? dude hottest fucking girls dopest spots u never get kicked out of TONS of weed and booze and u might even see the POPE!
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Re: EURO PALS: I am moving from the US to the EU (please help!)
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2020, 03:28:29 AM »
French dude here obviously. I love mediteranean cities like Marseille or Toulon, but it's quite hard to find a job there. Economically that area is pretty dead apart from tourism. Plus I'm quite willing to bet it's almost impossible to get by if you don't speak French. Generally latin countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain, France, you need to speak the language....

I love the Paris region (my hometown, "banlieue" south) but it's true rents are crazy af. Quite surprised by the "unsafe" comments here though? I saw a lot more petty crime in Barcelona. Maybe it's just "hometown bias", ie being street smart in the city you grew up in.

Now I've been living in Brussels for about 15 years and I think it ticks a lot of your boxes: cheap, english-friendly, good standard of living, no car needed. Very central in Europe so travel to anywhere is easy....weather is shit though    :-X :-X