Notes on Paul Schmitt/Ben Degros

[Madam, I'm Adam]

So, this winter's been pretty brutal. As a result my newfound gear madness has kicked in, and recently I decided to watch Ben Degros's and Paul Schmitt's videos and and compile notes on wheelbase, kicks, concave, etc. instead of having to go back and forth.

Basically I thought that this could hopefully help me understand the physics of skating better, and maybe help my comfort and skill level while skating. Maybe this could be arranged into a chart, but I'm not that dedicated.

What I'd like to try is to relate their notes to my personal situation. For the record, I'm five foot eight, size 9-9.5 shoe size, about 160 lbs. I mainly skate flat, curbs, low ledges, smaller transition, banks, flatbars a little bit, and wallie spots. Major problems of mine are consistency, toe drag, and pop.

Here's what I know so far:

Width X Length

• First my personal experience - based on my height and weight and what I like to skate, I feel more comfortable skating a board that's 8-8.25 inches wide, while staying closer to the 8-8.125 range. It's a "smaller" board which may provide less stability, but it's also lighter and more responsive. I think that's common knowledge.
• I've found that 31.5 to 31.75 is my preferred length.

Concave

• Moving into Degros/Schmitt, first I'll run through the concave - which is basically the sides of the board. I think they're also called "wings," I don't know everything. If the concave is steep, the edges and nose/tail of the board rise more overall and the board takes more energy to skate. Catching the edges of a steeper board can feel a bit more stable for flip tricks. There's also more control on flatbars when you skate a steeper deck.
• Contrary to that is mellow concave = The board is flatter overall. Degros has said that thinner, vulcanized soles can work better with flatter boards. There’s also less of a lip on mellower boards, which may be harder to flip, so a thinner, rubbery sole of a shoe can help “grab” the board and flip it. Boards with mellower concave can also wear out faster. But they’re better for people with flatter feet. 
• Conclusion: Being that I have flatter feet, yet like flip tricks and don't skate too many vulc shoes, I'm kind of torn here. I skated a flat board last year and it worked well for flip tricks, so my best best could be to skate a flatter board and wear vulc shoes that are a bit thicker, like Half Cab Pros. Either that or skate a board with flat/medium concave, which may take more research/time/effort.

Kicks

• Next are the kicks, or the nose and tail of the board (which I originally thought was also called concave). Soooo, steep kicks also take more energy to skate, which can lead to ghost pop where I don’t pop the board (which is a common problem of mine). But they can give more pop in general if my energy is there. But usually they can lead to less consistency and energy. You also need to put your back foot on the edge of the tail. But my feet can feel more locked in on transition, even though it takes more effort to pull back in on disasters and rocks. Also, Degros has said that for him, it feels like steep kicks help him feel more comfortable for backside tricks.
• This is important because muscles store energy, so the longer it takes my tail to hit the ground with a steeper kick, the more energy is going to be released in my ollie and the more power I'm going to have. But if I’m releasing all my energy in the ollie, I don’t have the energy to do the next part of the trick.
• Opposed to steep again is mellow - with mellow kicks, you can put your foot more inside the tail to pop higher, since in general, steeper kicks can provide more pop. A taller truck and slightly heavier wheels can give me more leverage to pop as well.
• Conclusion: This one's hard. A lot of pros and cons for each one. I ghost pop all the time, even with mellow kicks. If I have steep kicks, it'll only aggravate the problem. But I want to ollie higher and like backside tricks.
  So, maybe a board with mellow kicks paired with higher trucks and a slightly bigger wheel is the best of both worlds. Maybe the backside thing is just Degros' situation. Either that or change the focus of my sessions to specific things like ollieing higher, and have two different setups - but I don't like that.

Taper

• Next, real quick is how tapered the nose and tail are. Wider nose/tail = better for slides, but not as responsive for flip tricks. Tapered nose/tail = worse for slides, more responsive for flip tricks
• Conclusion: Since I want to focus on my flip tricks, a board that's moreso tapered than square/wide is better.

Wheelbase

• So now the wheelbase. I'm pretty sure that for me, a 14 to 14.125 wheelbase is best. But the thing about wheelbase is how it's affected by so many other factors.
• If I skate a board with steeper kicks but a 14’ wheelbase, it’ll feel more like a medium-kick deck. A longer wheelbase can exaggerate the feel of steeper kicks. Going back to my earlier point, a board with steeper kicks and 14-inch WB could be the key.
• Wheelbase isn’t just the board; it’s the trucks as well. A shorter wheelbase can also make heavier trucks feel lighter. Also, if my wheelbase is longer and is paired with the right kinds of trucks (Degros mentions Thunders), my wheels will be further apart and my pop could improve.
• The longer the wheelbase - the further back the truck is - the heavier the nose of my board will feel . The front of my deck will be heavier, but it can also rise up more, and can provide stronger pop. Both Degros and Schmitt have discussed this and it's based on physics. This is why Schmitt has touted the use of riser pads, and I believe both have discussed higher trucks doing the same.
• Widening my wheelbase will make me turn slower; shortening my wheelbase will make me turn quicker.
• Lower trucks plus a longer wheelbase can provide more finesse.
• The goal is to find what Degros refers to as a Goldilocks zone: A wider wheelbase paired with a shorter wheelbase truck, or shorter wheelbase paired with a wider wheelbase truck. In addition, the trucks should be higher so I can have height at the front of my board
• Conclusion: There's a lot to sift through here, but my takeaway is that since I want to improve my pop without losing anything, I should either be using risers or higher trucks and combine that with a shorter wheelbase. I may be sacrificing the finesse that lower trucks with a longer wheelbase can provide, so my toe drags may still be an issue, but that remains to be seen.

Fingers of Fucking Flat

• After that is fingers of flat. This is a Schmitt thing - how many fingers I can fit between the bolt holes and the place where the tail and nose kick up. The more fingers of flat there are in a deck, the more control I’ll have. Fewer fingers, by contrast, means more power channeled into my pop, but less finesse.
• Now the problem with this is, I've always found that my two fingers have always fit between the outermost bolt holes and where the kicks start rising. It's never one, or three. Also, what about people whose fingers are fatter? I don't put a lot of stock into it.
• Conclusion: I don't think about fingers of flat as much as how the wheelbase/truck combo will affect my pop.

Wheels

• Last thing is the wheels. It's common knowledge that smaller wheels are better for flip tricks, but aren't as comfortable on transition and don't roll as quickly. Bigger wheels can go faster, but are also a bit heavier and can cause ghost pop.
• Conclusion: I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of a heavier setup to create leverage for more pop - a lighter setup has actually worked better for me - and I want to focus on flip tricks. I'm also not skating bigger transition on a regular basis. So a wheel that's not too wide like a Spit Classic that's roughly 51-54mm should suffice.

Final Conclusion: Based on my body type and what I like to skate, a board with dimensions that are 8.0 - 8.25 x 31.5 - 31.75 would be ideal. The wheelbase should be shorter, possibly 14-14.125, flatter concave and medium-steep fairly tapered kicks, and higher, lighter trucks and normal-width 51-54mm wheels. In my experience, the psychological factor of skating an 8 x 31.5 x 14 board helps, since those are clean numbers. Weird but true. I should also try to find a supportive, beefier vulc shoe to pair with the setup.

I'm not considering other factors like the flick on my shoes, how light/grippy my shoes are, my vertical leap, my body's flexibility, wheelbite (which I think would be alleviated by a higher truck as well), etc.

I'd love to hear any suggestions if I'm missing something, what kind of board/truck combos would work best, etc.

[Urtripping]

Final Conclusion: Based on my body type and what I like to skate, a board with dimensions that are 8.0 - 8.25 x 31.5 - 31.75 would be ideal. The wheelbase should be shorter, possibly 14-14.125, flatter concave and medium-steep fairly tapered kicks, and higher, lighter trucks and normal-width 51-54mm wheels. In my experience, the psychological factor of skating an 8 x 31.5 x 14 board helps, since those are clean numbers. Weird but true. I should also try to find a supportive, beefier vulc shoe to pair with the setup.

Are you me? I'm your size and this is almost exactly what I look for in a setup. I like to ride the biggest wheels possible without too much wheelbite, but I constantly search for the dimensions you just described. I usually buy from my local and only pull the trigger on boards that check 3 of the 4 criteria I think about (8.0 or close to it width, shortest available length, 14 in wheelbase, medium concave/kick). I do waffle on concave sometimes... I have ridden flat boards that felt great and steep ones that I enjoyed, but it did change what felt good and ultimately what I ended up skating.

I ride Thunders and I can't imagine riding anything else, probably because I've been on them for so long... they just feel right.

You compiled lots of helpful information here for others wondering about how measurements affect skating, but you must also come to terms with the fact that you’re sending some folks down a dark and twisted path from which there is no return.

[jay_nev]

I had already seen your rough notes :p but this reads well and is nicely organized. Thanks for the work behind it, I’m interested to see where the discussion goes here. And also once the weather warms up for you how this new information applies to your set up and progress. 

[Madam, I'm Adam]

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Final Conclusion: Based on my body type and what I like to skate, a board with dimensions that are 8.0 - 8.25 x 31.5 - 31.75 would be ideal. The wheelbase should be shorter, possibly 14-14.125, flatter concave and medium-steep fairly tapered kicks, and higher, lighter trucks and normal-width 51-54mm wheels. In my experience, the psychological factor of skating an 8 x 31.5 x 14 board helps, since those are clean numbers. Weird but true. I should also try to find a supportive, beefier vulc shoe to pair with the setup.

[close]

Are you me? I'm your size and this is almost exactly what I look for in a setup. I like to ride the biggest wheels possible without too much wheelbite, but I constantly search for the dimensions you just described. I usually buy from my local and only pull the trigger on boards that check 3 of the 4 criteria I think about (8.0 or close to it width, shortest available length, 14 in wheelbase, medium concave/kick). I do waffle on concave sometimes... I have ridden flat boards that felt great and steep ones that I enjoyed, but it did change what felt good and ultimately what I ended up skating.

I ride Thunders and I can't imagine riding anything else, probably because I've been on them for so long... they just feel right.

You compiled lots of helpful information here for others wondering about how measurements affect skating, but you must also come to terms with the fact that you’re sending some folks down a dark and twisted path from which there is no return.

Actually going to the shop and standing on the different boards is key. That's something that very few if any online shops can even remotely capture.

I should give Thunders another chance, I've only had one pair and wasn't too keen on them...but maybe that was a result of their relation to the other parts of my setup, ionno.

You're totally right about traipsing down a dark path. I recently caught the gear madness bug after years of logging onto Slap, reading the truck thread, and staring in disbelief. But part of me welcomes the technical, detailed side of things and maybe it's about time haha.

I had already seen your rough notes :p but this reads well and is nicely organized. Thanks for the work behind it, I’m interested to see where the discussion goes here. And also once the weather warms up for you how this new information applies to your set up and progress. 

Haha I'm dying to have a longer session outside to try out the setups I've concocted. Of course you'll be the first to know 

[jgonzalez]

Super cool notes. I’ve been meaning to listen to the Schmitt 9club podcast again to think about my setup. Some good food for thought here.

I’m also the same dimensions lol. 5ft 8 9.5 shoes 160lbs

I got some classics (55mm f4) recently cause I’ve been on conical shapes lately. I’m liking the classics they’re lighter and easier to maneuver than the conicals. If i remember correctly Schmitt said that smaller contact patch helps the board flip easier. I think I can feel that. Less effort. I also have fun sliding around on them.

Edit: I’ve been on 8.25 decks with ace 44/Indy 144

This summer I’m gonna try an 8.5 with 149, ace 55 on a 9inch board, and an 8inch deck w/ 139 indys all with either conical or classic wheel shape

[Madam, I'm Adam]

I got some classics (55mm f4) recently cause I’ve been on conical shapes lately. I’m liking the classics they’re lighter and easier to maneuver than the conicals. If i remember correctly Schmitt said that smaller contact patch helps the board flip easier. I think I can feel that. Less effort. I also have fun sliding around on them.

I don't think I've heard that before but it makes sense, thank you sir. The 8.25 with Ace 44s sounds like fun!

[Croquet temper]

Get a Polar with the dimensions you like. You will have a skategasm, imho.

[S.]

So, this winter's been pretty brutal. As a result my newfound gear madness has kicked in, and recently I decided to watch Ben Degros's and Paul Schmitt's videos and and compile notes on wheelbase, kicks, concave, etc. instead of having to go back and forth.

Basically I thought that this could hopefully help me understand the physics of skating better, and maybe help my comfort and skill level while skating. Maybe this could be arranged into a chart, but I'm not that dedicated.

What I'd like to try is to relate their notes to my personal situation. For the record, I'm five foot eight, size 9-9.5 shoe size, about 160 lbs. I mainly skate flat, curbs, low ledges, smaller transition, banks, flatbars a little bit, and wallie spots. Major problems of mine are consistency, toe drag, and pop.

Here's what I know so far:

Width X Length

• First my personal experience - based on my height and weight and what I like to skate, I feel more comfortable skating a board that's 8-8.25 inches wide, while staying closer to the 8-8.125 range. It's a "smaller" board which may provide less stability, but it's also lighter and more responsive. I think that's common knowledge.
• I've found that 31.5 to 31.75 is my preferred length.

Concave

• Moving into Degros/Schmitt, first I'll run through the concave - which is basically the sides of the board. I think they're also called "wings," I don't know everything. If the concave is steep, the edges and nose/tail of the board rise more overall and the board takes more energy to skate. Catching the edges of a steeper board can feel a bit more stable for flip tricks. There's also more control on flatbars when you skate a steeper deck.
• Contrary to that is mellow concave = The board is flatter overall. Degros has said that thinner, vulcanized soles can work better with flatter boards. There’s also less of a lip on mellower boards, which may be harder to flip, so a thinner, rubbery sole of a shoe can help “grab” the board and flip it. Boards with mellower concave can also wear out faster. But they’re better for people with flatter feet. 
• Conclusion: Being that I have flatter feet, yet like flip tricks and don't skate too many vulc shoes, I'm kind of torn here. I skated a flat board last year and it worked well for flip tricks, so my best best could be to skate a flatter board and wear vulc shoes that are a bit thicker, like Half Cab Pros. Either that or skate a board with flat/medium concave, which may take more research/time/effort.

Kicks

• Next are the kicks, or the nose and tail of the board (which I originally thought was also called concave). Soooo, steep kicks also take more energy to skate, which can lead to ghost pop where I don’t pop the board (which is a common problem of mine). But they can give more pop in general if my energy is there. But usually they can lead to less consistency and energy. You also need to put your back foot on the edge of the tail. But my feet can feel more locked in on transition, even though it takes more effort to pull back in on disasters and rocks. Also, Degros has said that for him, it feels like steep kicks help him feel more comfortable for backside tricks.
• This is important because muscles store energy, so the longer it takes my tail to hit the ground with a steeper kick, the more energy is going to be released in my ollie and the more power I'm going to have. But if I’m releasing all my energy in the ollie, I don’t have the energy to do the next part of the trick.
• Opposed to steep again is mellow - with mellow kicks, you can put your foot more inside the tail to pop higher, since in general, steeper kicks can provide more pop. A taller truck and slightly heavier wheels can give me more leverage to pop as well.
• Conclusion: This one's hard. A lot of pros and cons for each one. I ghost pop all the time, even with mellow kicks. If I have steep kicks, it'll only aggravate the problem. But I want to ollie higher and like backside tricks.
  So, maybe a board with mellow kicks paired with higher trucks and a slightly bigger wheel is the best of both worlds. Maybe the backside thing is just Degros' situation. Either that or change the focus of my sessions to specific things like ollieing higher, and have two different setups - but I don't like that.

Taper

• Next, real quick is how tapered the nose and tail are. Wider nose/tail = better for slides, but not as responsive for flip tricks. Tapered nose/tail = worse for slides, more responsive for flip tricks
• Conclusion: Since I want to focus on my flip tricks, a board that's moreso tapered than square/wide is better.

Wheelbase

• So now the wheelbase. I'm pretty sure that for me, a 14 to 14.125 wheelbase is best. But the thing about wheelbase is how it's affected by so many other factors.
• If I skate a board with steeper kicks but a 14’ wheelbase, it’ll feel more like a medium-kick deck. A longer wheelbase can exaggerate the feel of steeper kicks. Going back to my earlier point, a board with steeper kicks and 14-inch WB could be the key.
• Wheelbase isn’t just the board; it’s the trucks as well. A shorter wheelbase can also make heavier trucks feel lighter. Also, if my wheelbase is longer and is paired with the right kinds of trucks (Degros mentions Thunders), my wheels will be further apart and my pop could improve.
• The longer the wheelbase - the further back the truck is - the heavier the nose of my board will feel . The front of my deck will be heavier, but it can also rise up more, and can provide stronger pop. Both Degros and Schmitt have discussed this and it's based on physics. This is why Schmitt has touted the use of riser pads, and I believe both have discussed higher trucks doing the same.
• Widening my wheelbase will make me turn slower; shortening my wheelbase will make me turn quicker.
• Lower trucks plus a longer wheelbase can provide more finesse.
• The goal is to find what Degros refers to as a Goldilocks zone: A wider wheelbase paired with a shorter wheelbase truck, or shorter wheelbase paired with a wider wheelbase truck. In addition, the trucks should be higher so I can have height at the front of my board
• Conclusion: There's a lot to sift through here, but my takeaway is that since I want to improve my pop without losing anything, I should either be using risers or higher trucks and combine that with a shorter wheelbase. I may be sacrificing the finesse that lower trucks with a longer wheelbase can provide, so my toe drags may still be an issue, but that remains to be seen.

Fingers of Fucking Flat

• After that is fingers of flat. This is a Schmitt thing - how many fingers I can fit between the bolt holes and the place where the tail and nose kick up. The more fingers of flat there are in a deck, the more control I’ll have. Fewer fingers, by contrast, means more power channeled into my pop, but less finesse.
• Now the problem with this is, I've always found that my two fingers have always fit between the outermost bolt holes and where the kicks start rising. It's never one, or three. Also, what about people whose fingers are fatter? I don't put a lot of stock into it.
• Conclusion: I don't think about fingers of flat as much as how the wheelbase/truck combo will affect my pop.

Wheels

• Last thing is the wheels. It's common knowledge that smaller wheels are better for flip tricks, but aren't as comfortable on transition and don't roll as quickly. Bigger wheels can go faster, but are also a bit heavier and can cause ghost pop.
• Conclusion: I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of a heavier setup to create leverage for more pop - a lighter setup has actually worked better for me - and I want to focus on flip tricks. I'm also not skating bigger transition on a regular basis. So a wheel that's not too wide like a Spit Classic that's roughly 51-54mm should suffice.

Final Conclusion: Based on my body type and what I like to skate, a board with dimensions that are 8.0 - 8.25 x 31.5 - 31.75 would be ideal. The wheelbase should be shorter, possibly 14-14.125, flatter concave and medium-steep fairly tapered kicks, and higher, lighter trucks and normal-width 51-54mm wheels. In my experience, the psychological factor of skating an 8 x 31.5 x 14 board helps, since those are clean numbers. Weird but true. I should also try to find a supportive, beefier vulc shoe to pair with the setup.

I'm not considering other factors like the flick on my shoes, how light/grippy my shoes are, my vertical leap, my body's flexibility, wheelbite (which I think would be alleviated by a higher truck as well), etc.

I'd love to hear any suggestions if I'm missing something, what kind of board/truck combos would work best, etc.

Damn, you went in deep Professor!

I have a very different taste for a deck. I need my board to be about 32 inches long. Since I like my deck to be about 8.125 wide it has become more difficult to find a deck that‘s long enough. I guess it is automatically assumed that a taller guy will also choose a wider board. That used to be different like 15 years ago, when people would skate 32 inch long 7.75s.

About those fingers of flat: I hate them. I feel it delays my pop and makes 360 flips nearly impossible for me. Maybe it is because I scoop them with pressure the old school way not the new ad the Blackfoot late way.  I have talked to some friends who do 360 flips in a similar way and they have had the same problem. I need little to no fingers of flat on my deck.

[/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]

[Lou Strux]

I feel like such a rube after reading that.
As long as I can get a deck to come in at 8.5” to 8.8” and have a wheel base between 14.25” & 14.75” I’m all good. I guess I’ve determined by this point that 14.5” WB is my sweet spot, but I’ve had 15” set ups & liked them just fine. I do prefer some sort of shape (squared nose or tail) because... old, but am not picky.
As for trucks, gotta be a good turn, and axles pretty close flush. I’ll run as large a wheel as the trucks will accommodate (up to 56mm) without getting too much wheelbite, but anything will do. I only lean towards larger so I can go faster & more over, roll over crust & chunks. Durometer of approx. 99a feels about right.
Those are about as strict of guidelines as I can manage to adhere to, but I swear to you, I’ll ride anything you put under my feet & within half an hour, I will love it regardless of dims or config.
Is having “the madness” fun?
Should I look into it?
COVID’s got me bored & playing at being a school teacher 5 days a week has me missing out on a lot of skate time, so I’m open to more of anything skate related, even if it is an obsessive mania which, I’m not going to lie, looks a bit funny when looking in from the outside.
Fill me in, y’all; what am I missing out on?

EDIT: It should be noted that my skating is about as tech as a stone axe, and I have negative-zero finesse. Maybe that’s got more to do with it than anything else. And before anyone speculates, no: I’m not some bowl troll. I like skreet shit. Small skreet shit. Very small.

[munchbox]

I feel like such a rube after reading that.
As long as I can get a deck to come in at 8.5” to 8.8” and have a wheel base between 14.25” & 14.75” I’m all good. I guess I’ve determined by this point that 14.5” WB is my sweet spot, but I’ve had 15” set ups & liked them just fine. I do prefer some sort of shape (squared nose or tail) because... old, but am not picky.
As for trucks, gotta be a good turn, and axles pretty close flush. I’ll run as large a wheel as the trucks will accommodate (up to 56mm) without getting too much wheelbite, but anything will do. I only lean towards larger so I can go faster & more over, roll over crust & chunks. Durometer of approx. 99a feels about right.
Those are about as strict of guidelines as I can manage to adhere to, but I swear to you, I’ll ride anything you put under my feet & within half an hour, I will love it regardless of dims or config.
Is having “the madness” fun?
Should I look into it?
COVID’s got me bored & playing at being a school teacher 5 days a week has me missing out on a lot of skate time, so I’m open to more of anything skate related, even if it is an obsessive mania which, I’m not going to lie, looks a bit funny when looking in from the outside.
Fill me in, y’all; what am I missing out on?

EDIT: It should be noted that my skating is about as tech as a stone axe, and I have negative-zero finesse. Maybe that’s got more to do with it than anything else. And before anyone speculates, no: I’m not some bowl troll. I like skreet shit. Small skreet shit. Very small.

avoid it all costs if you are comfortable with what your on.

it was fun when i was new and didnt know my preference, i admit it. now that my range is narrowed to quarter inch differences, i can confidently say i dont want to ride my friends setups.

sure i found my zone but i wont change truck brand, wheels, and theres only three choices for boards atm. more functional than fun at this point

[Mbrimson88]

It also depends on what you have access to, to some degree.

If you had access to way more product than you ever should (new or used, especially lots of second hand gear like me) you can mess around with almost anything and change out setups every other day.  The stupid thing with all that is I often get messed up riding too many different and weird setups, so keep thinking, STOP IT!!! and go back to what I know works well.

The other thing too is being able to find a constant source of what you want to ride, which from a long time ago I had bought everything of what I had liked when I had the chance so I would never have to change anything and could setup an identical complete every single time, which would perform the same way, right from new.

More often than not, getting the same thing over and over is not only difficult with limited runs of boards or other product, but especially with covid or product shortages, lots of people are having to try different things to what they would normally get, or not be able to get what they want, so will go for something else instead.

This can even be down to what the local shop will get in as well, which in some cases is very limiting if you only buy after standing on a board.

Industry standards change too, eg shorter wheelbase and overall length of board is making a big comeback right now, so for people who want longer boards, this is going to make it harder for them, depending on which brands they are into.

[Mbrimson88]

I have a very different taste for a deck. I need my board to be about 32 inches long. Since I like my deck to be about 8.125 wide it has become more difficult to find a deck that‘s long enough. I guess it is automatically assumed that a taller guy will also choose a wider board. That used to be different like 15 years ago, when people would skate 32 inch long 7.75s.

AH black eagle was one I had for a long time and still widely available, 8.125 x 32 with 14.25 wheelbase so a good amount of nose and tail, medium concave and good shape, but DLX make other boards in those sizes too.


My perfect setup nowdays for my 6'2" (188cm) height, size 11-12 shoes and medium build is around the 8.38 to 8.5 with 14.5 wheelbase and 32.25 to 32.8 length, 149 Indys and from 52 to 56 mm 99duro Spitfire F4 classic variants, so proportionally it is about the same as most smaller dudes on the 8 with 14 wb and size 9 shoes.

[90sDamiano]

You’re a G for taking the time to put this together
The length and wheel base are what I look at the most. 31.75 or 31.8 with a 14-14.25 is where I feel most comfortable. 14.25 is pushing it tho cause I ride Venture 5.25 lows. Love flat boards with mellow kicks, when it’s too steep I feel like I’m not fully on my board.

[Glurmpz]

I try not to worry about the "science" behind any of it, and came to the conclusion of what works best for me by remembering the characteristics of boards that worked best in the past, and vice versa.

I have 10.5/11 feet, so I've finally settled into 8.25-8.38 as the goldilocks width for at least the last decade.

Never been a fan of flat boards - my feet come off on ollies a lot and 360 flips are waaaay harder. Plus, I find they sog out quicker due to less concave keeping them rigid. Steep boards just feel better and I can pop everything better. I have more control on a steep board, not a flat one.

Has to be concave within the kicks, deal breaker if not. When boards don't have that it also causes air foot on ollies a lot for me. Little bit of spoon tail feels perfect.

Couldn't care less about wheelbase. Never known what it is on any board in my life. I think I like it shorter but whatever, not adding to my neurosis any more.

Fairly blunt for shape, but I can't stand how those Hockey/FA shapes look - I'm riding a Real 8.25 Full SE and it's just about perfect. Blunt but still round.

Dwindle boards always had more flat space after the truck holes and I was never a fan of how that pop feels so I prefer holes close to the start of the kicks.

Absolutely loathe non-dyed top and bottom layers. It just looks cheap. Top two and bottom two looks best.

I'm not a board/gear experimenter - I stick with what works. It feels so much better to just have a brand new version of what you're already used to.

[foureyedjim]

When it comes down to it, it's all about timing.  As said directly above, stick with what you like.

With that said though, I think inseam length can be considered.  The longer your legs in comparison to your torso, the more area you're able to access with your legs.  I'm also 5'9" but I've found that stepping up my board size feels much better for flip tricks.  I'm riding an 8.5" by 33" Quasi right now (14.5 WB).  I also tend to be forceful with my flip tricks it seems so the extra weight feels better for me (I'm riding 56" wheels).

Edit: I think we all have that one friend who's feelings on what feels right and what doesn't changes month to month.  Mine also happens to be bit of a hypochondriac. 

[S.]

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I have a very different taste for a deck. I need my board to be about 32 inches long. Since I like my deck to be about 8.125 wide it has become more difficult to find a deck that‘s long enough. I guess it is automatically assumed that a taller guy will also choose a wider board. That used to be different like 15 years ago, when people would skate 32 inch long 7.75s.

[close]

AH black eagle was one I had for a long time and still widely available, 8.125 x 32 with 14.25 wheelbase so a good amount of nose and tail, medium concave and good shape, but DLX make other boards in those sizes too.


My perfect setup nowdays for my 6'2" (188cm) height, size 11-12 shoes and medium build is around the 8.38 to 8.5 with 14.5 wheelbase and 32.25 to 32.8 length, 149 Indys and from 52 to 56 mm 99duro Spitfire F4 classic variants, so proportionally it is about the same as most smaller dudes on the 8 with 14 wb and size 9 shoes.

Yes Deluxe shapes are usually what I buy. They tend to have little to no fingers of flat and they have shapes with the proper length. I love the shape of that anti hero model you suggested I have bought it three times so far.

I am 6 foot tall and I have size 9.5 shoes. I am also a bigger guy for a Skateboarder. I like loose trucks and bigger wheels (53-56mm). Wheelbites can be a problem so I use risers even though I feel it is way easier to flip my board when it is lower to the ground. Some of the spots I like have rough ground so I need those bigger wheels. I like indys and thunders equally. I prefer indys for bowls and thunders for street. Since I like to skate both tranny and street i just make it work with either truck. Currently I skate indies.

I don‘t really give a shit about bearings. I usually skate Powell mini logos. They are not very fast, but they are cheap and usually last for a while.

I skate bones Stf. Any other wheel I have tried has flatspotted on me within the first week. I like wider ones. They might be a little less fast but they last longer and give me more grip.

[Madam, I'm Adam]

You’re a G for taking the time to put this together
The length and wheel base are what I look at the most. 31.75 or 31.8 with a 14-14.25 is where I feel most comfortable. 14.25 is pushing it tho cause I ride Venture 5.25 lows. Love flat boards with mellow kicks, when it’s too steep I feel like I’m not fully on my board.

Thank you! Good point about the 14.25 / Venture 5.25 lows combo.

When it comes down to it, it's all about timing.  As said directly above, stick with what you like.

With that said though, I think inseam length can be considered.  The longer your legs in comparison to your torso, the more area you're able to access with your legs.  I'm also 5'9" but I've found that stepping up my board size feels much better for flip tricks.  I'm riding an 8.5" by 33" Quasi right now (14.5 WB).  I also tend to be forceful with my flip tricks it seems so the extra weight feels better for me (I'm riding 56" wheels).

Good stuff, never considered the inseam. I have longer legs as well, I could wear pants with a size up from my regular inseam to see if that's more comfortable. I usually stick with a 30" inseam because I don't want too much sag, and I'm able to move comfortably with that size, but it might be time to switch it up.

Has to be concave within the kicks, deal breaker if not. When boards don't have that it also causes air foot on ollies a lot for me. Little bit of spoon tail feels perfect.

Fairly blunt for shape, but I can't stand how those Hockey/FA shapes look - I'm riding a Real 8.25 Full SE and it's just about perfect. Blunt but still round.

Dwindle boards always had more flat space after the truck holes and I was never a fan of how that pop feels so I prefer holes close to the start of the kicks.

Great points here, esp. the spoon tail. Please say hi to the Vancouver Carpenter next time you see him haha, actually he might still lurk here, what up @Ben De Gros

[Xen]

The easiest way to figure it all out is track what you skate and how well you skate on it. Of course this requires you to be skating a lot so you know your skating is on point no matter what you skate...everyone skates better when you are skating 24/7 so the real trick is noting your tricks and if you are just 'on' all the time based on what you are skating.

I skate best on middle of the road setups:

Street/All terrain:

8.2/8.25 x 31.75 (but under 32")
14.125/14.25 WB
8" trucks (but prefer 8.25") mid
51/52 mm wheels
Medium kicks and concave

Lately I've really found a sweet spot with certain dims but impossible to get them together: 8.18/8.2"W x 14.18 WB x 31.75/31.8" L - Basically something that sits right between an 8" and 8.25"

Bowls:

8.3x (32" max length)
14.3/14.4" WB
144/148/149 standards
53/54 mm wheels
Steep everything

5'10"
175/180lbs avg.
US 10

The DLX 8.28"x31.5"x14.18" WB is almost on point; I've never seen the longer own 31.75 in the wild.

[Post A Fit Fuccboi]

• The goal is to find what Degros refers to as a Goldilocks zone: A wider wheelbase paired with a shorter wheelbase truck, or shorter wheelbase paired with a wider wheelbase truck.

Good post by OP. But neither OP nor Ben Degros understands wheelbase. Hear me out.

The main issue is that they both assume there is such thing as a "wider" or "shorter" wheelbase without actually measuring any TOTAL wheelbases or understanding what wheelbase they like. More on that in a bit. 15" board wheelbase? Oh, that's "long," I need to put Aces on that. Wait, everyone needs to do that and that board will magically work for them? What determines how long the board needs to be before Ventures don't work? Or how short before Aces don't work?

---

What is wheelbase?

My not-so-outlandish theory: the wheelbase that actually matters is the TOTAL wheelbase axle-to-axle, like a car.

No one--outside of the Truck Wheelbase thread--ever measures this. If this is consistent, you will have a relatively consistent feel in rotational leverage. If this is random, every board is going to perform differently in tricks where wheelbase matters.

There is no point in pairing a "short wheelbase board" with a "long wheelbase truck" if what your body desires is, for example, a 17" wheelbase axle-to-axle, but you're just randomly trying to hit it with this "Goldilocks Zone" notion, rather than actually measuring your preferred wheelbase and reproducing it. A wheelbase of 17" is always going to rotate the same, regardless of board/truck pairing.

The axle-to-axle wheelbase of my current setup is 16 5/8". If I decide on a new Christmas complete, I can make the rotational characteristics almost the same as the current setup--regardless of board wheelbase, regardless of truck brand--if I just make the axle-to-axle wheelbase 16 5/8". Simple as that. I could hit this mark with Aces or with Ventures; I just need the appropriate board pairing. To hit a 16 5/8" axle-to-axle wheelbase with Ventures, I'd need a ~13.5" wheelbase board. My experiments suggest this board would perform roughly the same as a ~14" with Aces--at least in the areas that wheelbase most affects. The "Goldilocks" model attempts to replicate these findings while skipping the truly important measurement: axle-to-axle wheelbase.

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Why it matters

I believe axle-to-axle wheelbase relates to shoulder width. Like sport jacket size. When I put my skateboard with 16 5/8" axle-to-axle wheelbase up to my chest, the wheels are just past the ends of my shoulders. My preferred axle-to-axle wheelbase IS my shoulder width, give or take. It's no coincidence.

Yes, wheelbase affects how your trucks turn and it affects pop, but it MOST matters when you're doing a trick where rotational leverage is the main driver of the trick. Eg kickturns, 180s/360s, and shuvs. A back 180 on a 16 5/8" wheelbase always takes me less rotational energy to execute than a back 180 on a 16 6/8" wheelbase, regardless of different pop characteristics, weight, and other sources of leverage. Shuvs are slower when my axle-to-axle wheelbase is longer--just as flips are slower when the board is wider. I can even feel an 1/8" difference just doing kickturns on transition. It absolutely affects kickturns, 180s, and shuvs more than any other dimension of the board. And it obviously affects your stability and foot placement for every little thing, particularly on transition. I mean, it's hilarious people here obsess about how the amount of washers on the inside of your hangar affects flip speed, or whether spacers add weight to your setup--but no one even considers how much an 1/8" different wheelbase affects every single rotational maneuver you do. Jsoy is the only poster I've seen that has related wheelbase to shoulder width in the Gear forum. But I don't think he's ever noted the importance of TOTAL (axle-to-axle) wheelbase.

This is only part of the puzzle. But my theory actually addresses wheelbase-to-body ratio, rather than the wishy-washy "sub-14.5" boards should go with Ventures, over-14.5" should go with Aces--it's just Goldilocks logic" nonsense that Ben pushes. How does that even make sense? We aren't all the same size. Ben is literally twice my weight, and his shoulders have to be a good 3" broader. His stance and physical leverage in turning and rotational tricks have to be at least that 3" different.

Why even posit the very important revelation that our boards should relate to body size, and apply it to deck width vs. shoe size and deck length vs. inseam (both of which are correct) if we're going to stop short of wheelbase vs shoulder width, and instead prescribe "Goldilocks" deck/truck combos?  I mean the inconsistency is just weird.

My measurements:

5'5", 115 lb, size 7 US men's foot, 28" inseam, 36S jacket

Currently on an Enjoi with Ace 22s, which measures:

31" length (about the length of my leg, from foot to hip bone)
16 5/8" axle-to-axle (about the width of my shoulders)
7.75" width (about the size of my foot, from ball to heel)

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What wheelbase isn't

Will this make Ventures turn like Aces, just by putting one pair on a 13.5" board and the other pair on a 14"? No. Actual turning characteristics will vary somewhat depending on truck geometry, whether I have the bushings right, width of the board/truck, and wheel shape (affecting leverage). And pop characteristics? Well, as OP's post points out in various ways, pop characteristics are dependent on basically every measurement: particularly fingers of flat/truck combo, but also height, wheelbase, weight, and even--in the case of flipping and rotating--wheel contact patch and their placements in relation to the board concave. That is going to require another post to address. Part of my point is that picking wheelbase based on pop characteristics or turn characteristics is muddying the issue. Pop and turn are both dependent on many interrelated things.

I think the best thing to do is sort your correct width, length, and wheelbase first, and then experiment with pop. Pop relates mostly to how high the board rises when you stand on the tail (what Schmitt calls the "triangle"), how light that feels, and where the fulcrum is in relation to your body. How high and heavy the board needs to pop, and where that fulcrum needs to be, is--surprise--different for different people, tricks, and terrain. It's not just: oh, there's three fingers of flat, Ben says to use Ventures. C'mon.

I just feel like if we're going to try to think critically, let's at least TRY to think critically.

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TL;DR: OP is on the right track, but he's only scratching the surface. Less YouTube, more measuring tape would help. I'm not a huge fan of Ben Degros. What he talks about are merely starting points to help make different setups begin to feel the same as each other--without having to understanding why or to use a ruler. And that's a good place to start if you don't want to think too much. But this is the Slap gear forum. We want to overthink, don't we?

I recognize this is an AGGRESSIVELY kooky first post. I apologize for nothing.

[Xen]

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• The goal is to find what Degros refers to as a Goldilocks zone: A wider wheelbase paired with a shorter wheelbase truck, or shorter wheelbase paired with a wider wheelbase truck.

[close]

Good post by OP. But neither OP nor Ben Degros understands wheelbase. Hear me out.

The main issue is that they both assume there is such thing as a "wider" or "shorter" wheelbase without actually measuring any TOTAL wheelbases or understanding what wheelbase they like. More on that in a bit. 15" board wheelbase? Oh, that's "long," I need to put Aces on that. Wait, everyone needs to do that and that board will magically work for them? What determines how long the board needs to be before Ventures don't work? Or how short before Aces don't work?

---

What is wheelbase?

My not-so-outlandish theory: the wheelbase that actually matters is the TOTAL wheelbase axle-to-axle, like a car.

Degros does measure/account for this.

[foureyedjim]

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When it comes down to it, it's all about timing.  As said directly above, stick with what you like.

With that said though, I think inseam length can be considered.  The longer your legs in comparison to your torso, the more area you're able to access with your legs.  I'm also 5'9" but I've found that stepping up my board size feels much better for flip tricks.  I'm riding an 8.5" by 33" Quasi right now (14.5 WB).  I also tend to be forceful with my flip tricks it seems so the extra weight feels better for me (I'm riding 56" wheels).

[close]

Good stuff, never considered the inseam. I have longer legs as well, I could wear pants with a size up from my regular inseam to see if that's more comfortable. I usually stick with a 30" inseam because I don't want too much sag, and I'm able to move comfortably with that size, but it might be time to switch it up.

Can't tell if joking, but i'm not talking about the pants my guy.
Think of your legs as the arms of a drawing compass (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71WYzz1exSL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

The longer the arms of the compass, the larger the circle you can draw with it.  A longer inseam measurement means your legs are longer and will be able to reach the end of the board for flip tricks easier (theoretically) than someone with your same height but shorter legs. 

[Post A Fit Fuccboi]

Degros does measure/account for this.

Ok. I've seen him measure it, but never seen him understand the significance. Can you point me to the link?

I'm pretty sure Ben would say my setup is "wrong," since my deck has a 13.9" wheelbase and 2.5 fingers of flat. Only Ventures should work for that deck, right?

[Urtripping]

I recognize this is an AGGRESSIVELY kooky first post. I apologize for nothing.

This post wouldn't have been kooky at all had you not come in with such condescension

[Post A Fit Fuccboi]

Damn. One reply mocking my formatting, another calling my attempt at humility condenscension. Both within the hour. Welcome to slap, amirite?

[Eric Dolphy]

Damn. One reply mocking my formatting, another calling my attempt at humility condenscension. Both within the hour. Welcome to slap, amirite?

Just measured my axle to axle wheelbase, then my shoulders, pretty much spot on at 17.5"
I'm 5'11" with a size 10 foot. Totally agree that assuming that a perfect ratio exists that doesn't take body dims into account.

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I recognize this is an AGGRESSIVELY kooky first post. I apologize for nothing.

[close]

This post wouldn't have been kooky at all had you not come in with such condescension

Post an axle to axle wheelbase fuccboi

[Urtripping]

Damn. One reply mocking my formatting, another calling my attempt at humility condenscension. Both within the hour. Welcome to slap, amirite?

Listen, you made excellent points but your attempt at humility was, sadly, just an attempt.

Thank you for your insight (although it doesn't seem much different from Degros' ideas - you're just keeping the trucks consistent and using the board as the only variable to be even more precise/consistent, no?), but it is possible to share insight without painting everyone around you as idiots with outrageous ideas.

Edit: I am almost certain Degros mentions in every video that the setups he tries work/don't work specifically for him, but I don't think he ever has gone on to discuss just how much a person's body dimensions other than leg length/height make a difference. The shoulder width idea is very interesting.

[Post A Fit Fuccboi]

Thank you for your insight (although it doesn't seem much different from Degros' ideas - you're just keeping the trucks consistent and using the board as the only variable to be even more precise/consistent, no?)

I think Ben and I are measuring the same stuff, but believe in different goals. I believe in figuring out what dimensions people are physically suited to/preferred in the past, and recreating/tweaking from there. Whereas Ben would look at my deck dimensions and basically say that Aces aren’t gonna work on that thing, just because it’s got too much flat and the wheelbase is too short.

but it is possible to share insight without painting everyone around you as idiots with outrageous ideas

Dog. Is it possible that I was jokingly expressing solidarity with the “kooks” of this forum? And posting here because I believe I belong here? Do you take everything this personally?

[Urtripping]

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Thank you for your insight (although it doesn't seem much different from Degros' ideas - you're just keeping the trucks consistent and using the board as the only variable to be even more precise/consistent, no?)

[close]

I think Ben and I are measuring the same stuff, but believe in different goals. I believe in figuring out what dimensions people are physically suited to/preferred in the past, and recreating/tweaking from there. Whereas Ben would look at my deck dimensions and basically say that Aces aren’t gonna work on that thing, just because it’s got too much flat and the wheelbase is too short.

This is your most compelling point and I will now hold everything I hear about trucks and wheelbase up to it. And again, I thank you!

but it is possible to share insight without painting everyone around you as idiots with outrageous ideas

Dog. Is it possible that I was jokingly expressing solidarity with the “kooks” of this forum? And posting here because I believe I belong here? Do you take everything this personally?

You absolutely belong here, but the fact that two people felt a bit put off by the tone of your post should probably tell you more about your phrasing than the good folks of Slap. Leading with the statement that Degros and op don't understand wheelbase doesn't set you up to be heard (for the record, I DID hear you, though) by people interested in his videos. Again, you make good points, very good ones, you just sounded like a know it all at multiple points. I'm not hurt, I'm just letting you know as a friend...

Also, I got your kook joke and didn't think that was an example of condescension.

[Post A Fit Fuccboi]

All good dog. I’ve read this forum for years. I fully understand the “tone” that is appropriate and I fully expected to be clowned and have to defend my personal qualities over a post like this.

[Urtripping]

All good dog. I’ve read this forum for years. I fully understand the “tone” that is appropriate and I fully expected to be clowned and have to defend my personal qualities over a post like this.

Shoulda lead with a smile instead! Your points are valid and welcomed imo.