Author Topic: What does Slap mean to you?  (Read 2361 times)

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Uncle Flea

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2021, 01:23:05 PM »
I'm looking for inspiring content today.

I'm painting all death and suicide stuff in black and grey.

It kinda sucks
Plz stop killing each other
(A)pl(E)




botefdunn

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2021, 02:10:33 PM »
I'm looking for inspiring content today.

I'm painting all death and suicide stuff in black and grey.

It kinda sucks

If I'm reading this correctly you're making art, and I give you lots of credit for making yourself create even when feeling like crap. Sorry no inspiration, other than to suggest you go outside and do something physical and maybe a little intimidating or even scary. If you don't really feel like it, even if it's just a short hike, then odds are you will feel some measure of satisfaction once you've done it. The logic is a little twisted and questionable but that's all I got for you. Good luck.

TheLurper

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2021, 04:24:29 PM »
Thanks for that Lurper, lots of food for thought. couple things.

Where's that Howell quote from? very ironic, because his poetics of insecurity was the first place I witnessed the kowtow to institutional definition, don't have the exact quote but he said something about skateboarders lacking political courage, something to that effect. Maybe tenue has given him courage, or just the changing academic landscape, it's becoming more and more academically legit so his audience doesn't need to be mollified in the same way. I do love Ocean's work and everything he's done for skating but that always stuck in the ol' craw.

Um, yes most skaters are white but I believe that even looked at historically if you contrast the makeup of skating with wider north american society, you'll find a greater mixing of peoples than is present in other places, such as most working environments, residential neighbourhoods, schools, sports, etc. My point is for sure not that skating is perfect, only that it is progressive and willfully accomodating and open than most other communities or groups in the society in which it findfs itself.

So yes, skating in Yochim's Michigan town is probably predominantly white: but if it is less segregated than other cross sections of her community and espouses a philosophy of openness and acceptance based on common interest, it seems misleading to characterizing based on a quality that is less inherent to it than it probably is to Yochim's own University department. Even in this day and age, I see less cultural and ethnic diversity in most humanities departments than I do in skateboarding. And this despite the heavy "institutional critique" of this fact. It's a big topic and I'm out past curfew, see you later fellow skate nerds!

I'm enjoying your responses...

Here is the Howell link. It is a little old. He was still a grad student at the time, but it is an interesting quick read:
https://skateboarding.transworld.net/news/skateboarding-though-corporate-america-we-are-inefficient-and-proud/

I agree that the skateboarding is better than a lot of things out there, but I also think, I want to believe it is better than it really is.

The worst I've actually seen was in Albany, NY (two years ago). I like the dudes at Seasons and I back the shop pretty hard, but sometimes skating the the blue banks is not a pleasant activity. That whole (near) East Coast grit comes out a little too hard and sometimes in the wrong ways. The worst I ever saw, was a white skate dude had gotten younger black skate kid to grab coffee for him and then the white skate dude was berating the kid for not getting a straw or some shit. Every other word out of the white dudes mouth was n***a. I saw similar shit in another major (near) East Coast rust belt city in NY. (Admittedly, I regret not standing up for the younger black skate kid... but honestly, I was a bit afraid of the local dude. He ripped, was in with the other dudes who ripped at the park, and I didn't know anyone at the spot that afternoon. I should have said something and I feel lame for being a bit intimidated, but I was very much an "outsider" that day.)

And, I love the PHX/Tempe scene almost more than any other scene on the planet (Moscow is fucking amazing and so much fun), but I don't think the Hispanic population is fully represented in the skate scene. But, I've seen some dudes be really open and thoughtful about race/ethnicity in AZ.

But, then again, I've seen the whole "I don't see color" shit as well in a lot of scenes and that isn't the best perspective (better than being a racist dick, but sometimes is associated with being a racist dick).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 04:33:53 PM by TheLurper »

Quote from: ChuckRamone
I love when people bring up world hunger. It makes everything meaningless.
"That guy is double parked."
"Who cares? There are people starving to death! Besides, how does that affect you? Does it lessen the joy of parking?

LordManHammer

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2021, 07:14:25 PM »
Therapy honestly this is the closest thing to having a shit talking crew about skating.
Dueces Bitch's

botefdunn

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2021, 02:35:24 AM »
@TheLurper
Okay, I dug up the Ocean quote I mentioned before, there are two, both from “Poetics of Security”. My beef with his characterization of skateboarding as apolitical does speak to the trope you mentioned of “not seeing color,” but I have too much to say on that subject to include it here. I definitely appreciate the parallel though, and yes, I see color in all its iniquity.

“Skateboarding […] is a young urban counterculture that admirably seeks to challenge power relations and less admirably seeks to escape from them.” p.3
Ocean Howell, Poetics of security

Typically a challenge is something that requires fortitude, maybe even courage, work, and sacrifice. An escape on the other hand offers pleasure at little personal cost or just the avoidance of something unpleasant. I agree with Ocean that skateboarding is a bit of both, but I take exception to the paternalistic characterization of escape as “less admirable”. To take it one step further, I see the overt challenge of social norms as the true element of escapism in skateboarding, and the sustained escape from those norms as the true challenge. Follow me as I dive into the Wreck like Adrienne Rich.

When you stop doing something you enjoy in favour of devoting yourself to what you are told are your “responsibilities”, it seems natural that the previous, enjoyable activity will come to appear as an escape. But this is true of anything, not just skateboarding. For example, my friend Bassam  dreamed of being a doctor and fought his way into medical school, but then his uncles and mother pressured him into returning to Lahore to take over the family import-export business. Now he moans about the good old days, reminiscing on the late nights spent cramming for anatomy finals, as though those were the carefree salad days- and to him they were. What this example is supposed to suggest, is that escape is defined not so much by the nature of a given activity, but by the alignment of said activity with one’s interests and values.

In a nutshell, escape is measured by the sense of freedom it provides, and skateboarding by many accounts provides a sense of freedom. So why ever stop? For most skaters, it’s the inability to find acceptance or status that makes them hang it up. At a certain point they want to be treated like full-fledged members of society, like adults, like parents, like professionals, and that boilstheoceanhowell down to one thing: money.
Almost every pro spotlight interview in the old Transworlds’ said something like:

“my parents and the peeps at school
my skating didn’t get respect
until I did get paid and sent
around the world so
now they think it’s cool.”

Okay, but the vast majority of street skaters will never receive any kind of financial or social remuneration for their skating. In fact, the more time they spend street skating, the less likely their prospects of succeeding in the “real” world become. For every monetized skater with their own brand of coconut water, there are a million skaters who eventually “grow up” (ie. conform to normalized modes of value production such as making money and knowing about craft beer). Past a certain point, most quit or drift into the skatepark where they can maintain a certain respectability as consumer-citizens by posing no challenge to the status quo.
The longer you go as just an average street skater, the more stigmatized you become, as failing to live up to your social responsibilities. At 20, if you spend 8 hours a day out skating, when your parents friends ask “what do you do?” you can say you’re between things or some cockamamy nonsense, but at 40, the honest answer to that question in their eyes is probably “nothing.” Obviously it depends on the people, these are gross generalities I’m dealing in.

If you’re buying this so far, you may be asking why the greying, minimum-wage earning, middle-aged dood (hello fellow kids) with a late nineties trick selection that I’ve described is anything to be admired. I don’t know that they are, but I also don’t think they deserve to be singled out as less admirable than those who gave up on freedom in order to perpetually re-create the capitalist superstructure. And what else is it, when your life is predicated on earning a better wage, a better position, better benefits, bigger house, better school for your kids, etc. As individuals we can claim to have whatever noble values we want, but as countries, as citizens, our economic and political policies reflect an obsession with wealth accumulation above all else. And these systems are inherently competitive, breeding classism, ethnocentrism, and racism. The slave and non-union labour that allowed our countries to thrive and flourish aren’t an aberration in an otherwise just system, they’re yesterday’s grist in a capitalist pyramid scheme that we’re still every bit as committed to today.

I think it’s a good experience to feel like an outcast or a badass a little bit when you’re young, to understand that the cops aren’t there to serve and protect so much as to maintain social norms. But that’s a relatively easy experience to survive and move past. Shit, you could take that minimal outsider perspective and turn it into a master’s thesis if you were so inclined. But as I said before, the type of overt critique offered up by this type of activity is itself a form of escapism. Making art or any type of commodity out of an experience is a form of escapism: it’s an intellectualized, selective account that serves specific ends and can be bent at will. By contrast, the act of skateboarding remains unflinching and unromantic. When you haven’t done it in awhile it’s a little shocking how much it still hurts.  I think it’s fair to say that for most people, to skate through life is idealistic, maybe unrealistic. But living your ideals and swimming out into your dreams till you can’t see the land anymore or find your way back, it isn’t easy and it isn’t less than admirable and it isn’t some tacit capitulation.

“Skateboarders are not interested in transformative politics, and the culture has little potential in that arena. Skateboarding hints at the possibility of a more spontaneous and ‘non-alienated’ experience of the city, but only obliquely.” p.21
Ocean Howell, Poetics of security

This was the other quote but I’m tired and it’s pretty similar anyway. I would have said something about politics as praxis vs. politics as theory.

TheLurper

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2021, 01:54:01 PM »
@botefdunn

Whew, there is a lot going on in your post. I agree and I don't agree all at once. And, I understand some of it and some of it went over my head, so, hopefully, my response makes sense.

I think my first response might be that there is a third aspect Howell forgets to mention here, skateboarding's form of escaping also reinforces some of the dominant shitty norms in society.

I think Brayton did a great job of showing that skateboarders' closest cousins are the post-war existentialist hipsters/beatniks. Neither of these groups were all that revolutionary and their escapism via playing poor, traveling, and romanticizing black poverty. They just made a cooler shade of white and didn't do much for anyone but themselves, even though they were challenging the white suburbs.

Mailer here is brilliant, but also a fucking piece of shit via his romanticization of black poverty in the USA. I think an easy parallel to using (stereotypical) images of black life to create a cooler shade of white could be seen in the Static videos. (Black) Urban Philadelphia and the sound track is used as a character to add an edge to some of the lily white skaters involved in the project. (However, I don't want to demonize the skaters in this either... as I feel one of the whitest skaters in the Static videos is also very good at reaching out and interacting with underprivileged groups and actually cares and isn't simply out to make himself look cooler by associating with urban spaces, but through the video even he puts on a image that is more cool than it is true.)

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/the-white-negro-fall-1957

(full interview https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/norman-mailer-explains-the-hipster )


And, maybe escapism, from a political perspective, should be demonized, since it is only for our own selfish benefit and not focused on changing the world for everyone's benefit. I mean the one thing I've learned from watching Adam Curtis's documentaries is how complicit and terrible the self-ish hippie "change the world by freeing your mind" bullshit was.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 02:01:44 PM by TheLurper »

Quote from: ChuckRamone
I love when people bring up world hunger. It makes everything meaningless.
"That guy is double parked."
"Who cares? There are people starving to death! Besides, how does that affect you? Does it lessen the joy of parking?

botefdunn

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2021, 02:54:04 PM »
Very interesting Mailer commentary. I rewatched an old sci-fi movie last night called "The Quiet Earth" highly recommend it, anyway there's a quote that stuck out in reference to our ongoing conversation:

"How easy it is to believe in the common good when this faith is rewarded with wealth, status, and power."

I feel like it's one of the most longstanding forms of intellectual sleight of hand, to take a given ethos that promotes a sense of personal responsibility, and describe it exclusively in terms of its failure to be socially responsible. The irony is that if you believe (as I do) that society continues to reproduce competitive, adverse living arrangements, then social responsibility is itself a morally questionable position. At the very least, "failing" to live up to one's place in a system that promotes inequality doesn't imply moral corruption. That's not to say that you can't be antisocial and a selfish, thoughtless prick, but the two have no intrinsic link, as is so often implied in the arguments of those who feel themselves to be speaking on behalf of the right (as in better nature) social order.

When it comes to history, it isn't the existentialist or anarchistic position which has facilitated the slaughter and subjugation of entire populations, it's the delegation of personal responsibility by entire communities and nations to a leader, figurehead, regime, government, or what have you. Nefarious types of nationalistic injustice can exist under any name, including "existentialism" or "anarchy," but the actual practice of living with decentralized emphasis, creates smaller, localized problems. These problems may be variants of the ones faced by large-scale society, but the key word is scale.
Skateboarding for instance still exists on a small-enough scale that its major organs of communication, despite close ties to industry, still represent the individual to a greater degree than more traditional sports. Hence, you get a Marbie board in the new Thrasher, Leo Baker top 3 fav decks, and a very blunt Jovontae quote concerning race and his longstanding will to confront a racist audience with realities that are so often swept under the rug. Even if you view this as tokenism (which I don't), compare this to other venues of sport/entertainment and the difference is massive. 35 years after Jovantae's boards and the hanging klansmen, you have Coepernick being thrown out of the entire game for taking a knee. And my Sports Illustrated subscription has lapsed, but a quick look at their website reveals only gender-normative stereotypes.

My overall point is that I am suspicious of institutionalized critiques of "deviance". I think that these types of critiques often work insidiously to reinforce various types of nationalistic behaviour, by ridiculing or suggesting the hypocrisy of those who don't toe the party line.

Past experience suggests I may be starting to piss people off, which is not what I want. I respect other people's views and am limited by my own (narrow) experience just like everyone else. So I won't go any further on this topic, but am definitely interested in what anyone else has to say.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 03:14:55 PM by botefdunn »

TheLurper

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2021, 06:09:48 PM »
I think the notion that the system is broken/rigged and contributing to it only harms me makes sense. I mean this is basically Marx's whole thesis on how workers make themselves weaker in the system by going to work each day (as they made the capitalists just that much richer/more powerful than themselves by the end of the day).

And, I see what you are saying in some respect. But, generally, I think we'd be better off as individuals and a community, if we all backed NGOs, institutions, and political parties that actually promote the common good. The problem here is being able to see through the bullshit associated with some of these institutions/parties. The Heritage Foundation, the Von Hayek Institute, the mega church, and libertarianism certainly promote themselves by pretending to be for the common good, when they are obviously not. They are for giving the powerful more power and keeping everyone else down with myths of prosperity if only the poor are willing to work for it. And these institutions certainly make themselves very wealthy shilling for the ultra rich/powerful. But, being part of an organization or party that is actually set to help bring about a better structure should probably all of our goals... otherwise, we are maintaining a status quo that fucks a lot of people for our benefit.

I think pre-Olympics, skateboarding is better than most organized sports, but we still suck and a focus on individualism masks problems that exist within skateboarding. And, some of the "heroes? / tokens?" when it comes to underrepresented groups in skateboarding, say some pretty kooky shit. Some, certainly display a bit of survivor bias (not all of course...I'm thinking of two in particular but I'm not going to call anyone out).

I think the progress came from some fighting for their place in the scene and also some not just opting out to escape but giving a shit and battle for others in skateboarding. Leo Baker is partially where they are today because of their contribution, but because they were backed by a lot of people who didn't just opt out and escape.

Quote from: ChuckRamone
I love when people bring up world hunger. It makes everything meaningless.
"That guy is double parked."
"Who cares? There are people starving to death! Besides, how does that affect you? Does it lessen the joy of parking?

OldCandy

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2021, 08:56:48 PM »
6) What keeps you coming back to slap and why?
my 2 cents - keep in mind ive only been on slap for a year. so take this with a grain of salt? or just for entertainment whatever

im a really shitty skater and my friends who started recently dont have the insight that older skaters have. the thing that drew me to slap in the first place specifically - and still keeps me hear is mostly (in order) honest shoes/gear reviews (learning about older fashion and such), gossip/intreasting posters, and learning small cool things about the skate industry.

i have a obsession with skating and watching video parts dont do it for me anymore as after a while they all look the same.
Nah i skate big boards cause i got big ass feet and a big ass dick

dumbassgradstudent

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2021, 09:19:18 AM »
Hey everyone, I finished the paper and wanted to share it with you all for anyone who's interested. It's not perfect. It doesn't cover everything I would've wished for (there's a whole lot to this place not communicable in five or so single-spaced pages). But I really enjoyed writing it very much and hope you enjoy reading it. Also, I wanted to thank you all for your generosity and openness and silliness too. I've gotten pretty jaded about most anything involving school, and this process was nothing of the sort. It was really refreshing to listen to you guys reflect on SLAP and skateboarding in all sorts of different ways, and then try to translate that into a written form that communicated, and was of, the textures of the space and what SLAP and skateboarding means to everyone. It was a much needed break from the coldness and stiffness that characterizes academia and academic work, and a reminder of the things that matter. Anyways, take care homies! I hope it's sunny and dry wherever in the world you are

silhouette

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2021, 09:25:28 AM »
Hey everyone, I finished the paper and wanted to share it with you all for anyone who's interested. It's not perfect. It doesn't cover everything I would've wished for (there's a whole lot to this place not communicable in five or so single-spaced pages). But I really enjoyed writing it very much and hope you enjoy reading it. Also, I wanted to thank you all for your generosity and openness and silliness too. I've gotten pretty jaded about most anything involving school, and this process was nothing of the sort. It was really refreshing to listen to you guys reflect on SLAP and skateboarding in all sorts of different ways, and then try to translate that into a written form that communicated, and was of, the textures of the space and what SLAP and skateboarding means to everyone. It was a much needed break from the coldness and stiffness that characterizes academia and academic work, and a reminder of the things that matter. Anyways, take care homies! I hope it's sunny and dry wherever in the world you are

Damn PAL you did it. You really said SLAPPER.

Jokes aside, I appreciated this. Thanks for sharing your work.

Alan

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Re: What does Slap mean to you?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2021, 11:12:56 AM »
Hey everyone, I finished the paper and wanted to share it with you all for anyone who's interested. It's not perfect. It doesn't cover everything I would've wished for (there's a whole lot to this place not communicable in five or so single-spaced pages). But I really enjoyed writing it very much and hope you enjoy reading it. Also, I wanted to thank you all for your generosity and openness and silliness too. I've gotten pretty jaded about most anything involving school, and this process was nothing of the sort. It was really refreshing to listen to you guys reflect on SLAP and skateboarding in all sorts of different ways, and then try to translate that into a written form that communicated, and was of, the textures of the space and what SLAP and skateboarding means to everyone. It was a much needed break from the coldness and stiffness that characterizes academia and academic work, and a reminder of the things that matter. Anyways, take care homies! I hope it's sunny and dry wherever in the world you are

Yeah, thanks for sharing. Will be an interesting read, I'm sure!
Hosin' out the cab of his pickup truck
He's got his 8-track playin' really fuckin' loud