Nollie bs 180 vs Fakie "Frontside" 180 inconsistencies

[rawbertson.]

I have talked about this on the board before but I think its time to talk about it again because I truly would like to know if I am genuinely missing something or if most of the skateboard community is just full of stoners (pretty sure its the latter)




Listen, if you want to call a blind fakie 180 flip a "Fakie Frontside Flip" then Im willing to meet you half way on that. but if you are going to call that frontside, then you damn sure better be calling nollie half cabs backside, and those blind 180s frontside. otherwise its not consistent.

[Jean-Ralphio Zaperstein]

Do the rotations with your fingers and imaginary board and note if the rotation is clockwise or anticlockwise.

[Mean salto]

This shit is so fucking irritating.
Yeah it's not consistent the four stances were made up decades apart. Basically you compare everything to your normal stance. If you compare nollie to fakie then you're doing it wrong.
 So you do a front 180. If you pop off the nose then rotate the same way you do a nollie front 180. If you do the same trick going completely backwards it's a fakie front 180 or a front side halfcab. Then switch is just the complete opposite/mirror of regular.

[pointandclick]

its basically all cab's fault...
im kidding, but it is crazy fakie is the only stance/direction in skating that operates on its own "backwards" rules.

[Mean salto]

its basically all cab's fault...
im kidding, but it is crazy fakie is the only stance/direction in skating that operates on its own "backwards" rules.

Really not that crazy fakie just means going in reverse.

[blowjobtofakie]

Just call everything a stunt and call it a day, fuck it.

[tzhangdox]

Everything is relative to regular stance, nollie was never defined as switch fakie and vice versa even though geometrically speaking that is the case.

So nollie and fakie rotate in the same direction as regular, and switch is simply the mirror of regular.

If you want to use the blindside argument, you have to also note that fakie is defined as riding backwards, the way you're facing is actually the way you came from, not the way you're rolling like with nollie tricks where you're facing forwards in the direction you're going. So when you do a frontside half cab, in the middle of the rotation, your body is open to the way you came from. Feel free to disagree with this premise, but if you accept it, the way we define fakie rotations is logically sound.

All this nomenclature originated from surfing and transition before street and switch skating existed. If we started from a blank slate today and renamed everything, maybe we could come up with a lexicon that is a bit more consistent and intuitive for modern street skating. I personally think the more logically egregious trick names are the fakie slide tricks. The nollie/fakie 180 situation is pretty easily justified if you accept the premise above.

At the end of the day, trick nomenclature was developed over decades by a bunch of stoners. As much as I like to argue about it for fun, it should be seen as colloquial, not axiomatic. Like the english language, there are many inconsistencies and things that just don't make sense but we accept it anyway. Trying to renovate the system to be mathematically airtight is futile and will only confuse people more.

[georgethecat]

This is skateboarding's JonBenet Ramsey mystery; while I'm sick of talking about it, I am intrigued by hairbrained theories.

In my thinking I go back to how do these tricks "feel" compared to your regular stance? When you do a frontside halfcab, does it feel like you're ollieing frontside or backside? To me, it feels very much frontside, which is consistent with its nomenclature. Same for backside nollies- they feel very much backside to me and, again, consistent with how they're named.

[tzhangdox]

its basically all cab's fault...
im kidding, but it is crazy fakie is the only stance/direction in skating that operates on its own "backwards" rules.

Because fakie is literally the only stance/direction that is defined as "going backwards" lol

[ndsr]

This is skateboarding's JonBenet Ramsey mystery; while I'm sick of talking about it, I am intrigued by hairbrained theories.

In my thinking I go back to how do these tricks "feel" compared to your regular stance? When you do a frontside halfcab, does it feel like you're ollieing frontside or backside? To me, it feels very much frontside, which is consistent with its nomenclature. Same for backside nollies- they feel very much backside to me and, again, consistent with how they're named.

Stop making sense George, please I beg you, you are insulting the sanctity of slap culture

[DillsDarts]

this goddamn argument..... honestly can do nothing but agree with the OP. If I pop a fakie half cab which is backside, how in the everloving fuck, if I literally have my feet in the same position as a halfcab, move my shoulders the same way as the  halfcab then pop and rotate like a half cab, is it frontside? Yes, I have sat here stoned as fuck for hours imaginary popping my fingers like an idiot and still cannot think of a logical reason other than "its just the way it was when the trick was named".... if it looks like a half cab.... smells like a half cab.... acts like a half cab.... its frontside right???

[Jean-Ralphio Zaperstein]

this goddamn argument..... honestly can do nothing but agree with the OP. If I pop a fakie half cab which is backside, how in the everloving fuck, if I literally have my feet in the same position as a halfcab, move my shoulders the same way as the  halfcab then pop and rotate like a half cab, is it frontside? Yes, I have sat here stoned as fuck for hours imaginary popping my fingers like an idiot and still cannot think of a logical reason other than "its just the way it was when the trick was named".... if it looks like a half cab.... smells like a half cab.... acts like a half cab.... its frontside right???

I think you got your half-cabs wrong man

[tzhangdox]

this goddamn argument..... honestly can do nothing but agree with the OP. If I pop a fakie half cab which is backside, how in the everloving fuck, if I literally have my feet in the same position as a halfcab, move my shoulders the same way as the  halfcab then pop and rotate like a half cab, is it frontside? Yes, I have sat here stoned as fuck for hours imaginary popping my fingers like an idiot and still cannot think of a logical reason other than "its just the way it was when the trick was named".... if it looks like a half cab.... smells like a half cab.... acts like a half cab.... its frontside right???

Because they're named based on the direction of rotation relative to the regular stance trick, not based on the fact that they look the similar.

Also if you move your shoulders in the same way as a backside half cab when popping nollie like you say, it would be clockwise (assuming you're regular), it would be a nollie backside 180... so you've really answered your own question here

[Lowcalcium]

If I'm being completely honest. My friends and I only learned the difference of the nomenclature only a few years ago...and even then, during a game a of skate, things still get interesting

Friend: Okay I'm going to do a Nollie frontside Cab

Does the trick...

Me: That's a Nollie backside 180, you turned the wrong way and half-cabs can only be fakie

Friend: Fuck you, do the trick

[Mike Oxwelling]

Frontside 180 ollie.   You turn the way you head is facing.  As in not back/behind you.   You turn the same way when you do a frontside 180 nollie.  You don't turn/spin towards your back on the trick.   

The whole cluster fuck of non-logic isn't why a fs nollie is frontside or bs nollie is backside.  It's problematic how a a backside cab is backside when clearly you are turning in the direction you face.   It doesn't follow the logic of fs and bs that originated from surfing. 

But hey...its skating and its from 30 years ago.   Fakie backside 360 ollie might have originated from the fakie 360s being done in pools/vert/transition being called backside by skaters.   The Elguerrial might have been referred to as backside as well??  and it was made up before the caballerial.

[rawbertson.]

Everything is relative to regular stance, nollie was never defined as switch fakie and vice versa even though geometrically speaking that is the case.

So nollie and fakie rotate in the same direction as regular, and switch is simply the mirror of regular.

If you want to use the blindside argument, you have to also note that fakie is defined as riding backwards, the way you're facing is actually the way you came from, not the way you're rolling like with nollie tricks where you're facing forwards in the direction you're going. So when you do a frontside half cab, in the middle of the rotation, your body is open to the way you came from. Feel free to disagree with this premise, but if you accept it, the way we define fakie rotations is logically sound.

All this nomenclature originated from surfing and transition before street and switch skating existed. If we started from a blank slate today and renamed everything, maybe we could come up with a lexicon that is a bit more consistent and intuitive for modern street skating. I personally think the more logically egregious trick names are the fakie slide tricks. The nollie/fakie 180 situation is pretty easily justified if you accept the premise above.

At the end of the day, trick nomenclature was developed over decades by a bunch of stoners. As much as I like to argue about it for fun, it should be seen as colloquial, not axiomatic. Like the english language, there are many inconsistencies and things that just don't make sense but we accept it anyway. Trying to renovate the system to be mathematically airtight is futile and will only confuse people more.

by this logic you should be turning your switch tricks around too then. Mental Gymnastics imo that you are trying to say "everything is relative to nollie"

also it all wasnt invented decades apart. was within like 5 years.  i think skaters are just stoned out of their fucking minds and use mental gymnastics to justify shit and this thread seems to be proving that correct.

[Burton Ernie]

didn't Cab himself say Cabellerials are only backside? There is no "frontside" cab.

[Mike Oxwelling]

didn't Cab himself say Cabellerials are only backside? There is no "frontside" cab.

Quite the opposite.

[Burton Ernie]

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didn't Cab himself say Cabellerials are only backside? There is no "frontside" cab.

[close]

Quite the opposite.

my mistake! I guess he's on record saying they are always fakie, never nollie. Nothing about bs/fs.

apologies.

[Mean salto]

Frontside 180 ollie.   You turn the way you head is facing.  As in not back/behind you.   You turn the same way when you do a frontside 180 nollie.  You don't turn/spin towards your back on the trick.   

The whole cluster fuck of non-logic isn't why a fs nollie is frontside.  It's why is a backside cab backside when clearly you are turning in the direction you face.   It doesn't follow the logic of fs and bs that originated from surfing. 

But hey...its skating and its from 30 years ago.   Fakie backside 360 ollie might have originated from the fakie 360s being done in pools/vert/transition being called backside by skaters.   The Elguerrial might have been referred to as backside as well??  and it was made up before the caballerial.

Because a cab is just a backside 360 Ollie when going in reverse/fakie.

[tzhangdox]

Expand Quote

Everything is relative to regular stance, nollie was never defined as switch fakie and vice versa even though geometrically speaking that is the case.

So nollie and fakie rotate in the same direction as regular, and switch is simply the mirror of regular.

If you want to use the blindside argument, you have to also note that fakie is defined as riding backwards, the way you're facing is actually the way you came from, not the way you're rolling like with nollie tricks where you're facing forwards in the direction you're going. So when you do a frontside half cab, in the middle of the rotation, your body is open to the way you came from. Feel free to disagree with this premise, but if you accept it, the way we define fakie rotations is logically sound.

All this nomenclature originated from surfing and transition before street and switch skating existed. If we started from a blank slate today and renamed everything, maybe we could come up with a lexicon that is a bit more consistent and intuitive for modern street skating. I personally think the more logically egregious trick names are the fakie slide tricks. The nollie/fakie 180 situation is pretty easily justified if you accept the premise above.

At the end of the day, trick nomenclature was developed over decades by a bunch of stoners. As much as I like to argue about it for fun, it should be seen as colloquial, not axiomatic. Like the english language, there are many inconsistencies and things that just don't make sense but we accept it anyway. Trying to renovate the system to be mathematically airtight is futile and will only confuse people more.

[close]

by this logic you should be turning your switch tricks around too then. Mental Gymnastics imo that you are trying to say "everything is relative to nollie"

also it all wasnt invented decades apart. was within like 5 years.  i think skaters are just stoned out of their fucking minds and use mental gymnastics to justify shit and this thread seems to be proving that correct.

?? Why would I have to turn my switch tricks around too by this logic... nollie and fakie rotate the same direction as you would if you were spinning regular, and switch is just the mirror of regular... literally the simplest one. And where did "everything is relative to nollie" come from, literally said that everything is relative to regular, which it is.

Sure I don't know the exact timeline, but the point remains. It was developed over time but different groups of skaters, not some unifying body that really sat down and thought about this shit mathematically.

Ultimately the crux of all this confusion is that you think its intuitively correct to name nollie/fakie rotations the same if they look the same. But thats not how it was defined, for better or for worse. Sure, you could make a case for your system being more intuitive and petition to have it all revamped but that doesn't mean this particular framework is broken, just unintuitive to some people at worst. There are other cases of trick names where there are more clear cut contradictions, but not here.

Its not mental gymnastics to justify shit, if its literally how its defined and there are no contradictions in the existing framework.

[DannyDee]

It's basically is rooted in vert before switch became a thing. Also, isn't it frontside half cab?

[Mike Oxwelling]

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didn't Cab himself say Cabellerials are only backside? There is no "frontside" cab.

[close]

Quite the opposite.

[close]

my mistake! I guess he's on record saying they are always fakie, never nollie. Nothing about bs/fs.

apologies.

Gave the thumbs up to frontside in his 9 club.  Not to nollie though.

[Mike Oxwelling]

Expand Quote

Frontside 180 ollie.   You turn the way you head is facing.  As in not back/behind you.   You turn the same way when you do a frontside 180 nollie.  You don't turn/spin towards your back on the trick.   

The whole cluster fuck of non-logic isn't why a fs nollie is frontside.  It's why is a backside cab backside when clearly you are turning in the direction you face.   It doesn't follow the logic of fs and bs that originated from surfing. 

But hey...its skating and its from 30 years ago.   Fakie backside 360 ollie might have originated from the fakie 360s being done in pools/vert/transition being called backside by skaters.   The Elguerrial might have been referred to as backside as well??  and it was made up before the caballerial.

[close]

Because a cab is just a backside 360 Ollie when going in reverse/fakie.

It is.   And that's how we as skater's refer to it.    Not sure you're addressing OPs question still.   Not that you have to.   The above was my attempt.  Every nollie and ollie 180/360 fits the surfing origin of backside and frontside EXCEPT cab and half cab ollies.

[ChuckRamone]

The best arguments for the current naming system are that it's customary, so everyone knows it, and that it's relative to your normal stance. Other than that there's no logic. You should be able to see someone do a rotating nollie or fakie trick and say whether it's backside or frontside without having to know their stance.

I think ideally you would have no stance distinctions in a future where everyone skated both ways equally well. Then there would only be nollie (or fakie), and people would settle on calling tricks either frontside or backside in terms of which direction they're turning toward, so a nollie fs 180 would be considered the same as a bs half-cab and be called a nollie bs 180 instead. And everyone would skate symmetrical boards.

[Mean salto]

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Frontside 180 ollie.   You turn the way you head is facing.  As in not back/behind you.   You turn the same way when you do a frontside 180 nollie.  You don't turn/spin towards your back on the trick.   

The whole cluster fuck of non-logic isn't why a fs nollie is frontside.  It's why is a backside cab backside when clearly you are turning in the direction you face.   It doesn't follow the logic of fs and bs that originated from surfing. 

But hey...its skating and its from 30 years ago.   Fakie backside 360 ollie might have originated from the fakie 360s being done in pools/vert/transition being called backside by skaters.   The Elguerrial might have been referred to as backside as well??  and it was made up before the caballerial.

[close]

Because a cab is just a backside 360 Ollie when going in reverse/fakie.

[close]

It is.   And that's how we as skater's refer to it.    Not sure you're addressing OPs question still.   Not that you have to.   The above was my attempt.  Every nollie and ollie 180/360 fits the surfing origin of backside and frontside EXCEPT cab and half cab ollies.

Yeah soz. I guess maybe skateboarding seperated from surfing before more complex airs were a thing so they just improvised. I actually did address OPs question first but I guess no one's interested lol

[whale]

just replace "fakie" with "going backwards" and it should make sense.
Oh, and nevermind fakie krooks

[stillcantreflip]

if you approach a ledge fakie and fakie ollie into a front tailslide, is that a fakie switch front nose or fakie fs tail?

[silhouette]

Expand Quote

Everything is relative to regular stance, nollie was never defined as switch fakie and vice versa even though geometrically speaking that is the case.

So nollie and fakie rotate in the same direction as regular, and switch is simply the mirror of regular.

If you want to use the blindside argument, you have to also note that fakie is defined as riding backwards, the way you're facing is actually the way you came from, not the way you're rolling like with nollie tricks where you're facing forwards in the direction you're going. So when you do a frontside half cab, in the middle of the rotation, your body is open to the way you came from. Feel free to disagree with this premise, but if you accept it, the way we define fakie rotations is logically sound.

All this nomenclature originated from surfing and transition before street and switch skating existed. If we started from a blank slate today and renamed everything, maybe we could come up with a lexicon that is a bit more consistent and intuitive for modern street skating. I personally think the more logically egregious trick names are the fakie slide tricks. The nollie/fakie 180 situation is pretty easily justified if you accept the premise above.

At the end of the day, trick nomenclature was developed over decades by a bunch of stoners. As much as I like to argue about it for fun, it should be seen as colloquial, not axiomatic. Like the english language, there are many inconsistencies and things that just don't make sense but we accept it anyway. Trying to renovate the system to be mathematically airtight is futile and will only confuse people more.

[close]

by this logic you should be turning your switch tricks around too then. Mental Gymnastics imo that you are trying to say "everything is relative to nollie"

also it all wasnt invented decades apart. was within like 5 years.  i think skaters are just stoned out of their fucking minds and use mental gymnastics to justify shit and this thread seems to be proving that correct.

No you should listen to @tzhangdox, they're right and actually put it in words really well. Basically your mistake is you're thinking of nollie as a separate stance, THPS logic style when it's not, it's part of regs except instead of popping off the tail you pop off the nose and so there is no reason for your direction of reference to change. Whereas switch and fakie are actual stances, with the former being mirror mode and fakie being skating backwards. You're trying to apply math logic ('fakie is switch nollie') to something cultural without considering the intended definition behind each concept. Maybe also thinking in flatground/street skating terms too much and not nearly enough in terms of vert/surf (where the stuff was invented and named after the way you spun relative to the coping/wave), but with the right clues those apparent inconsistencies really aren't at all.

[mushroom slice]

Am too stoned for this right now but on the real homie. I like your threads the bests . Real skaterat shit. Respects