Poll

Does the woodshop a brand use for their decks impact your decision on buying a board?

Yes absolutely
320 (72.6%)
Yeah I guess a bit
102 (23.1%)
Indifferent either way
4 (0.9%)
Not really
7 (1.6%)
No never
8 (1.8%)

Total Members Voted: 433

Author Topic: CURRENT WOODSHOP DIRECTORY 2023 + misc deck and board info, help, questions, etc  (Read 58807 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

finalist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Rep: 6
Expand Quote


Do you know if Watson went out of biz? They haven’t updated their website for years in the sections I can see dates.
[close]


I don't really follow or catch up with much going on like that, but I think there was maybe a management or staff change so many things like the web site or social media might have been forgotten.

Last info was they were still making some boards but no where near as many as they used to, now buying in blanks to supply most of the cheaper generic market as well.

I could be wrong though.

It had the diamond black and white sticker with made in USA in the lower corner.

The quality seems pretty good. The final spray coat of varnish is really rich looking on the sides — more deeper, thicker looking than bbs. The middle layer is a beautiful blue stain with blue bottom stain and grey top stain. I would guess it’s a quality group of laminates. It feels as stiff and solid as any deck I’ve tried. I’m skating it and a bbs april with the same trucks, wheels, bearings, grip and bolts and all feels pretty close. The April is a hair flatter all around but I can only tell because I have both right next to each other. Their measurements are both exactly the same. This whole started because I’m looking for the April 8.25 shape by other brands for ease of purchasing access.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 08:59:08 PM by finalist »

Woodshop

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Rep: 178
  • Just deck / woodshop info
.

I was in a few shops today and saw all the Primitive boards had the BBS hologram sticker and "Made in Mexico" on them here in AU, but I did notice again the Rip N Dip boards, which looked and felt a lot like those ones you are describing, slightly thicker wood ply layers, similar concave but not exactly the same as BBS, with "Made in USA" on them.

Besides standing on them and looking at them, I was not about to get any of them and haven't seen anyone at a park riding one to be able to get more info, but they seem good.  I have enough boards anyway, but they have been on clearance at quite a few places here too.


A Magenta 8.5 Brush graphic that came through my hands recently felt a little different, even though it had the dot and same exact warning sticker as Baker and similar boards, Made in Mexico, brown stain bottom with a teal top, dimensions being 8.5 x 32 with 14.38 wb, which was interesting, but almost felt like flatter faced kicks, not the usual spoon shaped kicks.  It was another one on clearance.

Some Black Label were exactly the same as usual BBS, just the coloured top and bottom ply, 8.5 x 32.3 or so with 14.5 wb on them and although too steep in the kicks for my liking, they mellowed out nicely once I had parked on them for a bit.

Element have done a BBS run of the Star Wars graphic, as well as a more widely distributed new range with what seems like all boards being on wood with more generic concave and "Made in China" stickers on them.  People who have skated them say they go ok too, which is good for the cheaper boards they are.  Both those and the Star Wars BBS boards have been on sale, so getting two decent decks for the price of one pro board from another brand is a good deal for those who don't mind taking the graphic off or skating them as is.

Birdhouse is another one that have BBS wood, then China wood which seemed pretty good, as well as China pricepoint, which seemed a lot softer.  The thing that is funny about some of those boards is exact same width and graphic can be on a BBS or a China made board, but the shape, concave and other dimensions are different, from the boards I checked the other day.


There have been so many sales and overstock clearances of lots of brands in many shops of late, which has been a good chance to stock up on some cheaper boards, but I wonder how many more boards are going to end up on clearance if shops are still getting in too much stock and not enough RRP product is being sold, which then has a flow on effect.

Does it seem like similar things are happening in other places too?




scab

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Rep: 56
^Yeah, it's the same here in Europe. Lots of shops sell decks for prices at or even below break-even because they sit on way too much product. Same goes for other hardware. While that's a short-term treat for customers, I'm afraid not all shops will be able to cope with such slim margins for long. If I skated regular popcicles I'd be torn between stocking up on deals and continuing to buy full price decks to support my local. Luckily I skate twin tails and those are never on sale, so necessity forces me to do the right thing.

finalist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Rep: 6
.

I was in a few shops today and saw all the Primitive boards had the BBS hologram …
Does it seem like similar things are happening in other places too?

The primitive I have is not any thicker than my BBS decks, fwiw.
So the common knowledge (I think) in the past was co-lab Primitive decks are often Chinese but everyone I’ve checked recently is BBS with the bbs hologram sticker on top.
So far I really like the usa Primitive deck I got but I would definitely not order a primitive from online without knowing the top stickers.

I like the Crailtap G052 shape from China and I noticed the Few PSStix G052 shapes I’ve seen in person look to have a more pointy nose - not as blunt as the Chinese crailtap G052 shape.

Woodshop

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Rep: 178
  • Just deck / woodshop info
Expand Quote
.

That is an interesting one.

Makes sense and now I have a new one to add to the list.

Thinking I have seen that logo before, but can't place it though.


https://www.instagram.com/vitalusaskateboards/

https://www.vitalusaskateboards.com/


First post is from December 2021, but almost no other info available there.



[close]



Do you know if Watson went out of biz? They haven’t updated their website for years in the sections I can see dates.


Looking over the site, which doesn't have much info, this was interesting - been around marketing and sales talk most of my adult life, so I am just a bit skeptical about most things, but does this sound more like the new board you have?



https://www.vitalusaskateboards.com/about


Vital USA is an American Manufacturer of Premium Skateboards.
Our mission:

To create the highest quality skateboard.


What you can expect?

A skateboard with a distinct pop! A quality you can feel, and a consistent product experience.


What makes Vital USA different?

A relentless, unwavering attention to quality. We have tight tolerances on every aspect of the production process, preferring a lighter and thinner board than industry standard - but without compromising strength and overall durability. Adequate drying and painting times are vital. Pro tested and approved concave and shapes. Full custom veneer options.




finalist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Rep: 6
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
.

That is an interesting one.

Makes sense and now I have a new one to add to the list.

Thinking I have seen that logo before, but can't place it though.


https://www.instagram.com/vitalusaskateboards/

https://www.vitalusaskateboards.com/


First post is from December 2021, but almost no other info available there.



[close]



Do you know if Watson went out of biz? They haven’t updated their website for years in the sections I can see dates.
[close]


Looking over the site, which doesn't have much info, this was interesting - been around marketing and sales talk most of my adult life, so I am just a bit skeptical about most things, but does this sound more like the new board you have?



https://www.vitalusaskateboards.com/about


Vital USA is an American Manufacturer of Premium Skateboards.
Our mission:

To create the highest quality skateboard.


What you can expect?

A skateboard with a distinct pop! A quality you can feel, and a consistent product experience.


What makes Vital USA different?

A relentless, unwavering attention to quality. We have tight tolerances on every aspect of the production process, preferring a lighter and thinner board than industry standard - but without compromising strength and overall durability. Adequate drying and painting times are vital. Pro tested and approved concave and shapes. Full custom veneer options.

I read that too and it doesn’t fit my Primitive usa deck. My Primitive is 1245grams while my bbs April is 1220 grams. Both decks are 12.4mm with mob grip. The pop sounds like any other bbs I’ve owned.

After a couple days of use the primitive does feel like it has more normal concave and kicks while the April has a very flat feel that I prefer. I think most would prefer the Primitive though as it has a more Real se full shape feel but with a 14” wheelbase. All my decks are 8.25”
« Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 11:46:04 PM by finalist »

Whicker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Rep: 4
Got 2 decks from Element sale last week, 32cad each pretty crazy deal.

first is a Westgate BBS

second is just generic and unknown woodshop with VERY steep kicks

Basingstoke

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • Rep: 16
  • SLAP OG SLAP OG : Been around since SLAP was a mag.
Got 2 decks from Element sale last week, 32cad each pretty crazy deal.

first is a Westgate BBS

second is just generic and unknown woodshop with VERY steep kicks

The lazering on the second reminds me of Dailan Huahong boards and I believe that Girl G008 shape is the same dimensons or simliar.

somedudefromnj

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 624
  • Rep: 40

Sure is wild to think of their journey, from what seemed like pretty much the top woodshop in the industry back around 2000 to now with people talking about so many issues and ongoing problems.

Thinking back, that all those Black Label PS Stix boards I used to ride over twenty years ago were pretty much the best boards I had ever skated, back when I actually went hard and really made the most of what I had, even riding some of the older PS Stix boards I still have that are still so stiff and good, so the product from back then really was "the good stuff" so to speak.

I might have seen and skated up to ten PS Stix boards in recent years, all from other people and most still seemed fairly decent and defect free, but I know others I have skated with have had a few issues and don't want to ride their wood any more, as well as seeing some pics and funny things as mentioned.


Any which way, if they work for you, no worries, but if they don't because of manufacturing issues or look poorly finished, that is more something to take pics of and send to the brand / local distro or whoever to check and sort out under a valid warranty claim, but even saying that, I know sometimes it is easier to just give it away or focus it and go elsewhere for better boards.

A bit different working in a shop environment and seeing so many boards come through from various brands and distros but even then, it is hard not to notice some things like that and wonder what is going on.

I feel like Schmidt is doing it on purpose. Videos keep popping up of him saying "you want the give that keeps giving" meaning the wood giving

Lol. Eldee is definitely a human. He’s like a raider on horse back who’s kinda scared to do battle. Somehow he closes his eyes and swings his sword wildly and wakes up in a pile of dead orcs.


rocklobster

  • Trade Count: (+16)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 8863
  • Rep: 1470
  • SLAP OG SLAP OG : Been around since SLAP was a mag.
    Gold Topic Start Gold Topic Start : Start a topic with over 10,000 replies.
Expand Quote
Got 2 decks from Element sale last week, 32cad each pretty crazy deal.

first is a Westgate BBS

second is just generic and unknown woodshop with VERY steep kicks
[close]

The lazering on the second reminds me of Dailan Huahong boards and I believe that Girl G008 shape is the same dimensons or simliar.

Which generic graphic did you get on the Element board? On some of their online listings they mention BBS:
https://www.elementbrand.com/natural-defense-sascha-skateboard-deck-194844098979.html

I like that they list the length, WB, nose and tail measurements if you click "See Size Guide", under Key 1 or Key 2. Key 1 looks like BBS dimensions, Key 2 are China deck dimensions

Team logo boards are a mix, some listed as "7-ply maple wood" spome listed as "built by BBS"
https://www.elementbrand.com/element-x-bob-ross-happy-in-this-world-skateboard-deck-194844160287.html
https://www.elementbrand.com/timber-%257c-late-bloomers-bygone-skateboard-deck-194844160072.html#cgid=skate_skateboards_decks&start=8&hitcount=147
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 10:12:56 PM by rocklobster »
Venture Truck Height:

5.0 & 5.2 LO
STANDARD - 1.88” - 47.75mm
FORGED - 1.85”- 46.99mm

5.0 ,5.2, 5.6, 5.8 & 6.1 HI
STANDARD - 2.09” - 53.09mm
FORGED - 2.04” - 51.82m

backinaction

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1077
  • Rep: 250
Expand Quote

Sure is wild to think of their journey, from what seemed like pretty much the top woodshop in the industry back around 2000 to now with people talking about so many issues and ongoing problems.

Thinking back, that all those Black Label PS Stix boards I used to ride over twenty years ago were pretty much the best boards I had ever skated, back when I actually went hard and really made the most of what I had, even riding some of the older PS Stix boards I still have that are still so stiff and good, so the product from back then really was "the good stuff" so to speak.

I might have seen and skated up to ten PS Stix boards in recent years, all from other people and most still seemed fairly decent and defect free, but I know others I have skated with have had a few issues and don't want to ride their wood any more, as well as seeing some pics and funny things as mentioned.


Any which way, if they work for you, no worries, but if they don't because of manufacturing issues or look poorly finished, that is more something to take pics of and send to the brand / local distro or whoever to check and sort out under a valid warranty claim, but even saying that, I know sometimes it is easier to just give it away or focus it and go elsewhere for better boards.

A bit different working in a shop environment and seeing so many boards come through from various brands and distros but even then, it is hard not to notice some things like that and wonder what is going on.
[close]

I feel like Schmidt is doing it on purpose. Videos keep popping up of him saying "you want the give that keeps giving" meaning the wood giving


He likens it to a spring that you pre-load and then it flexes back and gives you more pop.

I will say that the highest ollies I have done in the last few years were on a Clutch made deck that was a bit flexy and snapped quicker than any other deck in the same time period. 

The PS I skated during that time had mellow tails and that took away some height.

Whicker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Rep: 4
Expand Quote
Got 2 decks from Element sale last week, 32cad each pretty crazy deal.

first is a Westgate BBS

second is just generic and unknown woodshop with VERY steep kicks
[close]

The lazering on the second reminds me of Dailan Huahong boards and I believe that Girl G008 shape is the same dimensons or simliar.

I was hoping since they were both the same measurements on their website that they would both be BBS but it looks like all the BBS boards are clearly labeled and mostly pro models.

Whicker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Rep: 4
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Got 2 decks from Element sale last week, 32cad each pretty crazy deal.

first is a Westgate BBS

second is just generic and unknown woodshop with VERY steep kicks
[close]

The lazering on the second reminds me of Dailan Huahong boards and I believe that Girl G008 shape is the same dimensons or simliar.
[close]

Which generic graphic did you get on the Element board? On some of their online listings they mention BBS:
https://www.elementbrand.com/natural-defense-sascha-skateboard-deck-194844098979.html

I like that they list the length, WB, nose and tail measurements if you click "See Size Guide"

It was this one.
https://www.elementbrand.com/en-ca/pearl-wwfe-skateboard-deck-194844150202.html

It looks WAY different in person. It is dipped red with no wood grain visible. The pearl is just green ish paint and the gold is pretty dull. Kinda bummed on it but the GF likes the red so w.e. its hers now.

off

  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 2545
  • Rep: 546
  • no gods no masters
“its giving wood”
-Paul “The Professor” Schmitt
while cool-guying is a real phenomenon, studies show that 83% of all cool-guying incidents can be attributed to the cool-guyee being an awkward weirdo

Woodshop

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Rep: 178
  • Just deck / woodshop info
.


I found this thread interesting, PS Stix offering blanks (minimum 50 decks), everything else shown in the thread:


https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=124290.0



Woodshop

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Rep: 178
  • Just deck / woodshop info
.

Thank you guys!!!

* Post below in total from the PS Stix thread


https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=124290.0





Anyone reach out yet / know more specifics about costs etc?



“It’s On! Make it a reality, new minimums for new opportunities.

Our new minimum of 50 decks include options for 2 graphics at 25 pcs. each.
All popsicle and shaped decks from our catalog are accessible to this program.

Contact our customer service team to get started.
: [email protected]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ck_R2WvpFOq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ck_Qc1lpDlR/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Woodshop

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Rep: 178
  • Just deck / woodshop info
.

Thank you guys!!!

* Post below in total from the PS Stix thread


https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=124290.0





the pdf they sent me




BALARGUE

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1495
  • Rep: 250
    • Balargue Skateshop avatar image
Minimum at HLC went from 100 to 30

rocklobster

  • Trade Count: (+16)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 8863
  • Rep: 1470
  • SLAP OG SLAP OG : Been around since SLAP was a mag.
    Gold Topic Start Gold Topic Start : Start a topic with over 10,000 replies.
Minimum at HLC went from 100 to 30

Source? Do you think it was in response to PS Stix going public with their low MOQs?
Venture Truck Height:

5.0 & 5.2 LO
STANDARD - 1.88” - 47.75mm
FORGED - 1.85”- 46.99mm

5.0 ,5.2, 5.6, 5.8 & 6.1 HI
STANDARD - 2.09” - 53.09mm
FORGED - 2.04” - 51.82m

TwisT

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 5103
  • Rep: 674
Expand Quote
Minimum at HLC went from 100 to 30
[close]

Source? Do you think it was in response to PS Stix going public with their low MOQs?

They did say in that press release when they were bought last year, expansion into global markets was the plan

BALARGUE

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1495
  • Rep: 250
    • Balargue Skateshop avatar image
Expand Quote
Minimum at HLC went from 100 to 30
[close]

Source? Do you think it was in response to PS Stix going public with their low MOQs?
i press boards there and i'm currently planning a run
it's not in response to PS Stix, orders are so scarce worldwide, they just want to make their factories run

Anyone knows if individuals can order at PS Stix ? I guess it's only B2B, right ?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 09:35:38 AM by BALARGUE »

GoHawrd33

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Rep: 4
  • Go hawrd, or don't.
I work with this brand in NYC called Nova World Order. All the boards are Generator wood with their standard shape which is amazing.

https://www.novaworldorder.com/shop


BALARGUE

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1495
  • Rep: 250
    • Balargue Skateshop avatar image
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Minimum at HLC went from 100 to 30
[close]

Source? Do you think it was in response to PS Stix going public with their low MOQs?
[close]

They did say in that press release when they were bought last year, expansion into global markets was the plan
You mean for HLC ?
Nah, low MOQs are just consequences of COVID, war on Ukraine and an emerging (or consolidating) economic / energy crisis.
Too much preordering, stagnating market, overstock at shops and distributors. All skateboarding related manufactures are running slow worldwide
It might start to get dirty for small brands, shops, etc.
And you already see some every man for himself moves (FA sale, Junkyard sale, distributors going the B2C route and screwing shops, etc)

Kicking Putin's ass would be a good start and might help change the mood
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 09:47:27 AM by BALARGUE »

Mbrimson88

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3680
  • Rep: 566
  • Just another skate shop guy
  • Bronze Topic Start Bronze Topic Start : Start a topic with over 1,000 replies.
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Minimum at HLC went from 100 to 30
[close]

Source? Do you think it was in response to PS Stix going public with their low MOQs?
[close]
i press boards there and i'm currently planning a run
it's not in response to PS Stix, orders are so scarce worldwide, they just want to make their factories run

Anyone knows if individuals can order at PS Stix ? I guess it's only B2B, right ?


I would imagine if it is anything like here in AU, all I had to do is apply for an ABN (Australian Business Number) which was free, then had access to order from wholesalers.

It might be the same sort of deal, or might be even easier than that over there in USA.


Compared to trying to order existing brand name product (eg Indy, Spitfire, or other top brands) from some distributors, which is a lot harder, having to prove you have a shop, business or something else, especially a physical location and not just an online store, most places that supply blanks for your brand will pretty much allow anything as long as you have the cash up front for it, including any random kid's dad, or other person who knows nothing about skateboards, to the local guy at the park who always wanted to start his own brand.  So many people have been getting in on it in the last few years, even more so than the last two decades, it seems.

I guess every place is different, but that is my experience here anyway.

I talk too much about skateboards.  Sorry.

Esmith5488

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 2243
  • Rep: 362
The new roger run is on BBS. Hopefully they keep it that way.

goldfishboot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • Rep: 129
hello! I was curious if anyone has firsthand experience buying boards from any of the boutique/garage/basement manufacturers out there. maybe this post would be suitable for a separate thread? dunno. think Wouldshop, Pretty Rad, Searat, GGI. (still around?)

I love the passion that goes into these decks and often they make super insane shapes that no one else does - resources or firsthand experience would be incredibly useful for me (I am not a rich man)

iw0

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
  • Rep: 308
The new roger run is on BBS. Hopefully they keep it that way.

they seem very stoked to be on bbs, so yeah hopefully staying that way

Woodshop

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Rep: 178
  • Just deck / woodshop info
hello! I was curious if anyone has firsthand experience buying boards from any of the boutique/garage/basement manufacturers out there. maybe this post would be suitable for a separate thread? dunno. think Wouldshop, Pretty Rad, Searat, GGI. (still around?)

I love the passion that goes into these decks and often they make super insane shapes that no one else does - resources or firsthand experience would be incredibly useful for me (I am not a rich man)


Quite ok asking here, as I usually check things and keep an eye on what is going on elsewhere too.

The BLANKS thread is a hard one to find as the name has spaces in it B L A N K S so often doesn't come up on searches like other things.

Link here:


https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=113993.0


I thought there was another one somewhere too, but right now I can't think of where it ended up, DIY board thread or something...


Edit

Found it:


DIY Board graphics, but a lot on DIY boards too.


https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=48527.840
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 02:53:36 PM by Woodshop »

Gene_Harrogate

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1048
  • Rep: 512
Just got a new Theories board with a strange marking. 
It's egg shaped, and I know they've been on BBS but where the dimple normally is theres a TI

I know clutch does a letter and a number but I checked their website and they dont seem to have anything that matches the shape, or letter markings.
This is the shape-
I've bought another Theories board within the last month that had the normal BBS marking, not sure why they'd go elsewhere for this one.

Get hungry on it!

Mbrimson88

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3680
  • Rep: 566
  • Just another skate shop guy
  • Bronze Topic Start Bronze Topic Start : Start a topic with over 1,000 replies.
Just got a new Theories board with a strange marking. 
It's egg shaped, and I know they've been on BBS but where the dimple normally is theres a TI

I know clutch does a letter and a number but I checked their website and they dont seem to have anything that matches the shape, or letter markings.
This is the shape-
I've bought another Theories board within the last month that had the normal BBS marking, not sure why they'd go elsewhere for this one.


My understanding of things, re pandemic shortages was Clutch was able to provide wood to many brands during the time when other woodshops could not keep up with production numbers and supply many of their smaller to medium level, or even some larger accounts with the required product, including the Theories brand, as per what other people had said.

I have also been told that Theories of Atlantis Distribution is one such company that gets blanks in significant numbers and uses their own in house heat transfer machine to put graphics on boards for some (not all) of the brands they distribute, so I could see that as being very possible that they still had a board in certain shapes that was from Clutch.


https://www.theoriesofatlantis.com/pages/toa-distribution

Purely guessing, but T1 could be a special Theories shape, given it doesn't seem like one that is available anywhere else.


All just thoughts though.

I talk too much about skateboards.  Sorry.