Author Topic: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack  (Read 1132 times)

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Skatebeard

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Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« on: February 27, 2022, 11:43:43 AM »
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.

rocklobster

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2022, 05:36:12 PM »
I hate heelflips with a passion but I'm going to ask for a diagram (if possible) anyway.

I had some success with them late last year - someone told me that you can't think of them like a kickflip (drag straight up and flick off the tip of the nose). Instead you have to pop, drag parallel up the deck and kick your heel straight off (perpendicular) the side of the nose.

It was just 1 session when I had them on lock, been flailing around with them ever since that I stopped giving a fuck about them.

Edit: extend your heel out diagonally of the nose
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 01:58:36 AM by rocklobster »

Skatebeard

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2022, 11:24:14 PM »


Hopefully that makes sense. Rear foot angle in red, toes over the toeside pocket. I have my weight through balls of my feet on the toeside half of the board and squat straight down for the pop, naturally leaning back a bit more to balance out the foot position- I think that's the secret, this foot position stops your shoulders coming down and over which fucks with board rotation and losing it behind you.

The rear foot angled inwards points your knee inward so my front foot and knee are angled forward too for comfort. In terms of the flick I tend to just think about going through the toeside edge with my heel as a flick off the end of the ollie, it's not a big karate type motion. In terms of placement up and down the board see what works, I found after this new back foot position you can have the front anywhere forward of the middle, depending how high you want to pop.

Keep shoulders back, head up, lean over the rear of the board just slightly, and in theory it should spin dead ass under you.



You can see the angle of the rear foot cants my knee inward when setting up for the pop, I'm a little hunched on this one but it was still a decent make- I think you always feel more upright than you actually are, so as long as you aren't hanging your head shoulders right over past the deck you should be golden.

That rear foot placement and angle definitely seems to be the key though, for me at least - interested to hear if it works for anyone else. Hope this helps!

Buttfart Rapedick

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2022, 12:46:36 AM »
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.

rocklobster

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2022, 01:57:41 AM »
Expand Quote
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.
[close]

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.

Good stuff, I have the problem at 3:03, I'm kicking out but my foot isn't catching anything.

silhouette

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2022, 03:50:39 AM »
I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

You've probably realized this by now but just saying because the majority of skaters do not seem to verbalize the following to themselves when it's really key to most flip tricks: those are all about building tension over different parts of your board before you even pop, and for the trick to work as intended those pressure points have to respond to each other, if that makes sense. That's why there is a near infinite way to do and form what technically qualifies as the same flip trick (and also why most everybody does theirs differently - for the most part they're going with their own 'quirks', habits and adjustments that they've learned to make work for them).

Basically flips are only about the actual movement so much, and come down to the original positioning and weight distribution pre-pop a lot more than is typically recognized, what mostly matters is resonance in between the placement of your front and back foot which means 1/ you should be able to feel whether or not an attempt is going to work out before you even pop (and when you feel like it's not going to, then actually going through the motion is useless and a waste of not just time but also energy, so then you're better off either going for another trick that better matches your situation instead or completely readjusting how you're set up) and 2/ it's really possible to do just about any basic flip trick with minimal effort (at the expense of pop).

All that matters then is finding which key pressure points on your board react to which others for optimal efficiency, which should come in handy in your situation where you're trying to watch your health. The only difference with the boosted, high pop version of the same tricks is you're going to want and incorporate more ollie motion to those, but you never really have to and can figure out very lazy ways to do most of them if landing maneuvers on flat is your main concern vs. actually clearing stuff or looking a certain way. E.g.. those instances and stories of Penny playing around with flatground kickflips, sometimes doing minimalistic ones that flip super quick, sometimes big floaty ones, that to me is actual board control on flatground tricks, only knowing how to do a trick one way doesn't mean you've mastered it if you have zero control over the form and (since it's what we're talking about here) spent effort.

tl;dr what matters is having resonance in between whatever each of your feet is doing before you even pop, if you can start feeling that then you'll quickly be able to control every flip trick you can form. Back foot placement in particular is something people constantly sleep on as if it only served the basic purpose of 'popping down' but no, if it doesn't match how your front foot is positioned then your shit is just not going to work as intended unless you learn how to tweak that too. Its importance is as essential as front foot placement, I'm tempted to say even more so especially because most people don't even think about it.

The way I personally do heelflips, my front foot is mostly perpendicular to the board but my back foot will be at an angle, usually facing outwards though (open stance) and I pop using the center of the tail with my big toe, to me that's key as it matches the tension my front foot is building up inside the concave. For lazier ones though I'll probably angle my front foot inwards a little bit more so that my heel is directly resting on the concave (so less ollie) and all I need to do is fling it (upper body posture directed towards the tail also helps). Angled front foot is something I typically do on all heelflip shove-it variations too because that's how I retain efficiency on the flip all the while compensating for the board varial. I hope this helps.

wrinkletusk

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2022, 09:47:27 AM »
You've probably realized this by now but just saying because the majority of skaters do not seem to verbalize the following to themselves when it's really key to most flip tricks: those are all about building tension over different parts of your board before you even pop,

I've seen you mention this before but never thought to ask you more about it.  Are you actively 'loading up' the deck before popping?  Like, trying to flex the deck a certain way between your feet by pushing down against it as you're crouching pre-pop?  My pre-pop is all about balancing/weight in the right spot and then the 'loading' happens as I come out of the crouch and into the pop (I guess).

Skatehacks mentions this quite a bit in his tuts, especially for 360 flips, but whenever I actively try to load up the deck pre-pop it doesn't feel right at all and I don't come anywhere close to landing what I'm trying. 

I guess I'm having a hard time visualising what I'm supposed to be doing.  Help?

silhouette

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2022, 11:04:17 AM »
Expand Quote
You've probably realized this by now but just saying because the majority of skaters do not seem to verbalize the following to themselves when it's really key to most flip tricks: those are all about building tension over different parts of your board before you even pop,
[close]

I've seen you mention this before but never thought to ask you more about it.  Are you actively 'loading up' the deck before popping?  Like, trying to flex the deck a certain way between your feet by pushing down against it as you're crouching pre-pop?  My pre-pop is all about balancing/weight in the right spot and then the 'loading' happens as I come out of the crouch and into the pop (I guess).

Skatehacks mentions this quite a bit in his tuts, especially for 360 flips, but whenever I actively try to load up the deck pre-pop it doesn't feel right at all and I don't come anywhere close to landing what I'm trying. 

I guess I'm having a hard time visualising what I'm supposed to be doing.  Help?

Your description actually sounds accurate to what I'm describing and feel like I'm doing, except I suspect it's one of those things where overthinking it and then suddenly trying it overnight won't work better than just progressively grasping the feel for it and finding your own sweet spots over time, although of course that's a good start. What I think is important is remembering to look at your skateboard deck as a plain flat surface you're trying to imprint a certain motion to using the key articulations in your body (nothing more elaborate than that as in, I think it's important to demythologize the skateboard and skateboard tricks as singular objects), and realize a lot of the activity (especially flatground and/or flips) are just really basic tension and release, akin to how a slingshot works.

For me it's toying with the form of flatground kickflips that eventually led me to realize that - out of the blue I realized it really helped with my consistency and shaping on them to not just think about front foot action (which seems to be the typical basic approach) but also back foot placement and 'spring loading' - using my back foot as a stable counter to whatever my front foot was going to be doing, first with placement and then relying on my big toe to sort of nudge the tail behind me after building some tension (vs. naively pop straight down out of practical necessity) to help boost the flick all the while keeping me centered over the object. That just seemed to make the board stick to my front foot a lot better in a way that ensured consistent control whereas expecting everything from the front foot really was just introducing more arbitrary elements into the equation; you really want to think about what every active part of your body is doing and consider the consequences of your positioning and weight distribution over the flat surface before you even pop, otherwise you're sort of finding yourself popping at random and thus getting too wild a variety of results. Maybe one could say what you're really looking for is explosiveness in your pop, you don't necessarily want a high power output - you want an efficient one, and it's actually all there for the taking as soon as you start considering all the variables.

Another move that comes to mind is how some people do high ollies, especially skaters that are shorter in height (which happens to be my case). To compensate for shorter legs, a lot of them will optimize placement and spring loading with their front foot over the middle of the board's length, back foot in a very particular position on the tail that allows for a very quick snap and then the accompanying upper body posture that's really centered to be as neutral as possible in the execution - if you can do nosebonks or maybe even crook bonks on semi-tall objects you'll probably get what I mean. Someone with tall legs can just pop with less optimal technique and their own height will do a lot of the work for them, someone else will instead have to optimize speed and accuracy of their motion and perhaps stretch their body in a fashion that's more reminiscent of martial arts. You have to consider grip, pressure points (your means of interaction with the board) and sudden weight shifts to really 'pilot' your tricks.

One more situation where I regularly have to describe this kind of action is when teaching someone ollie impossibles, because the pop on that trick is so particular (seeing as you want zero front foot action once you've brought the tail down, and the board to spring up completely vertically), I often compare the mechanics to the one of a catapult. Front foot really puts pressure down (sometimes directly on the nose to compensate for the back foot covering the whole width of the tail) to make sure there is a build up to the next step, then as soon as you suddenly remove it you get this brutal reaction and smack to use. If you miss considering those forces then you get less pop to use for verticality and that's how people end up doing weird 360 shoves instead.

The more you'll think about it and suddenly try to incorporate it into your skating as if you already didn't have years of habits under your belt though, the less it will work out because what you really need is getting there yourself, but I think the best way to do so is by learning how to tweak very basic tricks - ollies and kickflips, switch too probably really helps (really all stances). Not necessarily tweak as in 'bone' like most people would consider (that's just one way of doing it) but literally all possible shapes, work on your ability to flex both low and high ollies and kickflips, from the quick type you would do up a curb say for a kickflip into manual to the type you'd use to clear taller objects or even get peak height ones on flat, experiment with different timing, positioning, movement speed as long as the trick works and you'll narrow down all the common denominators for yourself - and those are the fundamentals that really matter for each trick. Then the logic will click and you will naturally read your board better and develop that feel over time.

Relearning (and bettering) hardflips last year or so also really helped me understand my mental process when preparing for tricks in general, because I do those kind of weird, like a typical frontside varial kickflip that I just unfold in front of me (so I have to really optimize however vertical my snap can get - which isn't much, remember, short legs - and be quick to imprint the desired motion). It taught me that in general what worked best for me was to break down the actual order in which I set up for flatground tricks altogether, as opposed to doing it subconsciously and thus sometimes randomly - now and even for 360 flips (since you're mentioning them), that order is front foot first to the point where I can feel the concave just right (so that I know the board is actually going to react to that position once I pop), then back foot in a place that counters that front foot placement and allows me to build tension, and then once at this stage where my feet are actually 'gripping' the board already I consider what my upper body should be doing - locking it in place for straight tricks (e.g.. 360 flips again), or preparing for a rotation if desired. Backside 360 ollies on flat are one blatant example that actually solely relies on that (for me at least, and I guess the step hop counterpart as well), it's pretty obvious how most people set up for those in advance and then the very instant they release all pressure over the board they just spring through the whole motion all at once, as a reaction to how they've been 'loading' the trick when preparing for it.

Mr. Stinky

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2022, 12:15:46 PM »
^^^That is really exceptional and anyone reading should give that most of their attention.  I just have one small thing to add that helped me conceptualize this a little bit: the kicks and concave of your board make it like a spring that wants to return to that form after being flexed.  That action of snapping back into shape can help you do tricks with less physical effort/far more control just by finding the right way for you to position your body and distribute your weight, like silhouette says. 

A good illustration is the difference between a really effortful, scooped 360 flip, with the back foot all the way in the pocket almost to the wheel well (old school style), and a 360 flip that pops high and spins quickly, with the back foot more toward the tip of the tail (e.g., Kalis).  The pocket technique is more about brute force when you scoop because there's less of a lever and also less flex to work with, and it seems axiomatic that where a trick requires more force you just have less control.  Popping 360 flips more from the tip of the tail with that proper tension between feet requires a bit of additional refinement in the back foot technique, but it enables the trick to happen more efficiently and thus controllably, taking up less three-dimensional space as a result. My sense of it is that the bodily movements to do a trick don't take as much force as a result of pre-loading the board, which would not work nearly so well if it could not flex and predictably return to something like its starting shape, if that makes any kind of sense.

wrinkletusk

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2022, 01:20:38 AM »
Your description actually sounds accurate to what I'm describing and feel like I'm doing, except I suspect it's one of those things where overthinking it and then suddenly trying it overnight won't work better than just progressively grasping the feel for it and finding your own sweet spots over time, although of course that's a good start. What I think is important is remembering to look at your skateboard deck as a plain flat surface you're trying to imprint a certain motion to using the key articulations in your body (nothing more elaborate than that as in, I think it's important to demythologize the skateboard and skateboard tricks as singular objects), and realize a lot of the activity (especially flatground and/or flips) are just really basic tension and release, akin to how a slingshot works.

For me it's toying with the form of flatground kickflips that eventually led me to realize that - out of the blue I realized it really helped with my consistency and shaping on them to not just think about front foot action (which seems to be the typical basic approach) but also back foot placement and 'spring loading' - using my back foot as a stable counter to whatever my front foot was going to be doing, first with placement and then relying on my big toe to sort of nudge the tail behind me after building some tension (vs. naively pop straight down out of practical necessity) to help boost the flick all the while keeping me centered over the object. That just seemed to make the board stick to my front foot a lot better in a way that ensured consistent control whereas expecting everything from the front foot really was just introducing more arbitrary elements into the equation; you really want to think about what every active part of your body is doing and consider the consequences of your positioning and weight distribution over the flat surface before you even pop, otherwise you're sort of finding yourself popping at random and thus getting too wild a variety of results. Maybe one could say what you're really looking for is explosiveness in your pop, you don't necessarily want a high power output - you want an efficient one, and it's actually all there for the taking as soon as you start considering all the variables.

Another move that comes to mind is how some people do high ollies, especially skaters that are shorter in height (which happens to be my case). To compensate for shorter legs, a lot of them will optimize placement and spring loading with their front foot over the middle of the board's length, back foot in a very particular position on the tail that allows for a very quick snap and then the accompanying upper body posture that's really centered to be as neutral as possible in the execution - if you can do nosebonks or maybe even crook bonks on semi-tall objects you'll probably get what I mean. Someone with tall legs can just pop with less optimal technique and their own height will do a lot of the work for them, someone else will instead have to optimize speed and accuracy of their motion and perhaps stretch their body in a fashion that's more reminiscent of martial arts. You have to consider grip, pressure points (your means of interaction with the board) and sudden weight shifts to really 'pilot' your tricks.

One more situation where I regularly have to describe this kind of action is when teaching someone ollie impossibles, because the pop on that trick is so particular (seeing as you want zero front foot action once you've brought the tail down, and the board to spring up completely vertically), I often compare the mechanics to the one of a catapult. Front foot really puts pressure down (sometimes directly on the nose to compensate for the back foot covering the whole width of the tail) to make sure there is a build up to the next step, then as soon as you suddenly remove it you get this brutal reaction and smack to use. If you miss considering those forces then you get less pop to use for verticality and that's how people end up doing weird 360 shoves instead.

The more you'll think about it and suddenly try to incorporate it into your skating as if you already didn't have years of habits under your belt though, the less it will work out because what you really need is getting there yourself, but I think the best way to do so is by learning how to tweak very basic tricks - ollies and kickflips, switch too probably really helps (really all stances). Not necessarily tweak as in 'bone' like most people would consider (that's just one way of doing it) but literally all possible shapes, work on your ability to flex both low and high ollies and kickflips, from the quick type you would do up a curb say for a kickflip into manual to the type you'd use to clear taller objects or even get peak height ones on flat, experiment with different timing, positioning, movement speed as long as the trick works and you'll narrow down all the common denominators for yourself - and those are the fundamentals that really matter for each trick. Then the logic will click and you will naturally read your board better and develop that feel over time.

Relearning (and bettering) hardflips last year or so also really helped me understand my mental process when preparing for tricks in general, because I do those kind of weird, like a typical frontside varial kickflip that I just unfold in front of me (so I have to really optimize however vertical my snap can get - which isn't much, remember, short legs - and be quick to imprint the desired motion). It taught me that in general what worked best for me was to break down the actual order in which I set up for flatground tricks altogether, as opposed to doing it subconsciously and thus sometimes randomly - now and even for 360 flips (since you're mentioning them), that order is front foot first to the point where I can feel the concave just right (so that I know the board is actually going to react to that position once I pop), then back foot in a place that counters that front foot placement and allows me to build tension, and then once at this stage where my feet are actually 'gripping' the board already I consider what my upper body should be doing - locking it in place for straight tricks (e.g.. 360 flips again), or preparing for a rotation if desired. Backside 360 ollies on flat are one blatant example that actually solely relies on that (for me at least, and I guess the step hop counterpart as well), it's pretty obvious how most people set up for those in advance and then the very instant they release all pressure over the board they just spring through the whole motion all at once, as a reaction to how they've been 'loading' the trick when preparing for it.

Dude, thanks for taking the time to respond with those thoughts, that was far beyond the response I was expecting.  Nice one!  Glad I wasn't totally off base with my interpretation.

I'm trying to overcome some bad habits from the late 80s - early 90s (I'm not sure decks even flexed back then) and I'm actually thinking about & breaking down what I'm doing with a trick instead of semi-mindless repetition.  So yeah, loading up the deck pre-pop is a pretty new concept to me, but now I know I haven't really misunderstood what pre-loading is, I'll keep experimenting with it on my limited bag of tricks.

I have incorporated some pre-load into my pop shuvs and they are so much better now, so I know it works, it just isn't really happening on other tricks yet.  One of my main goals is to land my first 360 flip before I hit 50 in 10 months (I've half-heartedly tried 'em throughout the years but never really hammered away at them).  I'm so damn close and I reckon with a bit more pre-load in the right place that fucker is going to pop right up into my feet eventually.

Thanks again!

IusedToSkateMore

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2022, 12:56:50 PM »
 heelflips have always been my go to. They've always felt really similar to an ollie for me and the mechanics aren't incredibly different as far as my operations go. Like Silhouette mentioned regarding finding tension/pressure in the board thru foot placement. My heelflip and ollie foot setup is very similar, with only the front toes being an inch or two closer to the mid line of the board for an ollie. Pressure is applied something close to equally on thru both legs, with a center point of gravity during set up and landing. Really, for me, the heelflip flick isn't that different than an ollie either as the foot slides up toward the nose at only a slightly different outward angle, rather than straight up the center.

anyways, here's some pictures of how I set my feet up for heelflips.





stay high, lay low

silhouette

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2022, 04:13:09 PM »
One of my main goals is to land my first 360 flip before I hit 50 in 10 months (I've half-heartedly tried 'em throughout the years but never really hammered away at them).  I'm so damn close and I reckon with a bit more pre-load in the right place that fucker is going to pop right up into my feet eventually.

Thanks again!

I think that's a really cool goal, if you ever feel like it I can teach you 360 flips. They're already in you anyway just waiting to happen, but if you're ever down to film and post a couple of attempts on flat, or really just tell me what typically goes wrong with them, I can help you figure out what the exact problem is, I'm usually pretty good at that. Good luck with those either way.

And my pleasure, I know the walls of text look funny (especially on a phone) but the words just come out no matter how hard I try to watch them and I'm a fast typer who typically posts on work breaks, so those usually just take a few minutes really. For how much impact they can have on people, it's just a better investment of my time than ten pseudo-cool shitposts would be or whatever. Cheers!

Buttfart Rapedick

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2022, 06:23:35 PM »
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I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.
[close]

You've probably realized this by now but just saying because the majority of skaters do not seem to verbalize the following to themselves when it's really key to most flip tricks: those are all about building tension over different parts of your board before you even pop, and for the trick to work as intended those pressure points have to respond to each other, if that makes sense. That's why there is a near infinite way to do and form what technically qualifies as the same flip trick (and also why most everybody does theirs differently - for the most part they're going with their own 'quirks', habits and adjustments that they've learned to make work for them).

Basically flips are only about the actual movement so much, and come down to the original positioning and weight distribution pre-pop a lot more than is typically recognized, what mostly matters is resonance in between the placement of your front and back foot which means 1/ you should be able to feel whether or not an attempt is going to work out before you even pop (and when you feel like it's not going to, then actually going through the motion is useless and a waste of not just time but also energy, so then you're better off either going for another trick that better matches your situation instead or completely readjusting how you're set up) and 2/ it's really possible to do just about any basic flip trick with minimal effort (at the expense of pop).

All that matters then is finding which key pressure points on your board react to which others for optimal efficiency, which should come in handy in your situation where you're trying to watch your health. The only difference with the boosted, high pop version of the same tricks is you're going to want and incorporate more ollie motion to those, but you never really have to and can figure out very lazy ways to do most of them if landing maneuvers on flat is your main concern vs. actually clearing stuff or looking a certain way. E.g.. those instances and stories of Penny playing around with flatground kickflips, sometimes doing minimalistic ones that flip super quick, sometimes big floaty ones, that to me is actual board control on flatground tricks, only knowing how to do a trick one way doesn't mean you've mastered it if you have zero control over the form and (since it's what we're talking about here) spent effort.

tl;dr what matters is having resonance in between whatever each of your feet is doing before you even pop, if you can start feeling that then you'll quickly be able to control every flip trick you can form. Back foot placement in particular is something people constantly sleep on as if it only served the basic purpose of 'popping down' but no, if it doesn't match how your front foot is positioned then your shit is just not going to work as intended unless you learn how to tweak that too. Its importance is as essential as front foot placement, I'm tempted to say even more so especially because most people don't even think about it.

The way I personally do heelflips, my front foot is mostly perpendicular to the board but my back foot will be at an angle, usually facing outwards though (open stance) and I pop using the center of the tail with my big toe, to me that's key as it matches the tension my front foot is building up inside the concave. For lazier ones though I'll probably angle my front foot inwards a little bit more so that my heel is directly resting on the concave (so less ollie) and all I need to do is fling it (upper body posture directed towards the tail also helps). Angled front foot is something I typically do on all heelflip shove-it variations too because that's how I retain efficiency on the flip all the while compensating for the board varial. I hope this helps.

Only silhouette could write a post with a 2 paragraph TL;DR

Buttfart Rapedick

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2022, 06:32:20 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.
[close]

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.
[close]

Good stuff, I have the problem at 3:03, I'm kicking out but my foot isn't catching anything.

Probably just timing then. You don't have to catch the board all that hard, you can actually do them as more of a bump than actual flick and they still work. Make sure you're rolling your ankle and focus on timing out the flick. I would maybe do a bunch of ollies from your heelflip foot position so you get comfortable with the balance and timing of "tail goes down, nose comes up" and then just start kicking the fucker.

Ok

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2022, 09:39:05 PM »
Best thread going rn

j....soy.....

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2022, 10:33:43 PM »
With heelflips I feel…less is more….

Ok

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2022, 05:20:16 PM »
Expand Quote
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.
[close]

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.

Dude. The heel flip video very nice.
The real one was the Cole 360 flip tutorial: back foot placement, head placement, aiming the front foot. Got several.

I really appreciate all of the contributions to this thread. Silhouette’s treatise on pre loading is great and was really helpful to the sesh. I spend a lot of time riding different boards/setups, and trying to get my basic flatground stuff going. The local park has some really intimidating transitions, and then not much flat or ‘street’ stuff. Thinking about building up tension before popping my kickflips was helping me on a type of setup that I don’t normally think I like. The results were very good.

As an aside, I think I need to build up more lower body strength. This only seems odd to me in that my lower body is over developed, and especially in proportion to my core and upper body, both are sorely lacking. I saw a skater specific strength test on IG calling for something like 37 single leg calf raises and 22 single leg squats. I am definitely not there yet.

IusedToSkateMore

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2022, 06:10:39 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.
[close]

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.
[close]

Dude. The heel flip video very nice.
The real one was the Cole 360 flip tutorial: back foot placement, head placement, aiming the front foot. Got several.

I really appreciate all of the contributions to this thread. Silhouette’s treatise on pre loading is great and was really helpful to the sesh. I spend a lot of time riding different boards/setups, and trying to get my basic flatground stuff going. The local park has some really intimidating transitions, and then not much flat or ‘street’ stuff. Thinking about building up tension before popping my kickflips was helping me on a type of setup that I don’t normally think I like. The results were very good.

As an aside, I think I need to build up more lower body strength. This only seems odd to me in that my lower body is over developed, and especially in proportion to my core and upper body, both are sorely lacking. I saw a skater specific strength test on IG calling for something like 37 single leg calf raises and 22 single leg squats. I am definitely not there yet.

after I tore ligaments in my ankle last January, the PT got me on single leg calf raises and squats. I've quit with the squats, but I bust out 20 single leg calf raises and heel dips on each leg before I go running in the morning. this, with 1 leg balancing on a balance ball or even a loose skateboard, does some serious work and will increase your pop.
stay high, lay low

rocklobster

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2022, 06:29:35 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.
[close]

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.
[close]

Dude. The heel flip video very nice.
The real one was the Cole 360 flip tutorial: back foot placement, head placement, aiming the front foot. Got several.


As an aside, I think I need to build up more lower body strength. This only seems odd to me in that my lower body is over developed, and especially in proportion to my core and upper body, both are sorely lacking. I saw a skater specific strength test on IG calling for something like 37 single leg calf raises and 22 single leg squats. I am definitely not there yet.

Link please, very interested in the strength and conditioning aspect of skateboarding. I was never gifted on my board or naturally light-footed, so doing conditioning stuff in my downtime to gain any advantage is appreciated.

Buttfart Rapedick

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2022, 05:53:29 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Back in the day I could throw heelflips all the time, was a real go-to trick for me. Since starting skating again 2 years ago after a 12 year break, I've really struggled to get my regs heelflips back, they've been very inconsistent and just felt all a bit wrong.

I'm having some knee cartilage issues at the moment so have been adjusting my popping foot position on a few tricks to compensate and reduce the joint playing up.

started messing around yesterday on heelflips with my popping foot over the toeside pocket, with my knee turned inwards a bit and my foot angled off toward the back off the board (think old school hardboot alpine snowboard positive binding angles, if that means anything to you). I opened my shoulders a bit more and squatted straight down, and the flip just stays right under, fully controlled with that nice roll over and catch.

Changing foot position and keeping weight on the toeside half of the board as I pop, along with the new back foot position has performed some sort of minor miracle- I'd usually struggle to put a few heels down in a session, now I've got them every time and the board stays under my legs so much nicer.

Sounds weird, and totally counter-intuitive, but absolutely worth a go if you've tried everything else with heels. This is probably the most transformative hack for a trick I've found in the couple years since I've been back, and was super satisfying.
[close]

Similar story but I wasn't a heelflip kid. Couldn't do a clean one except switch (I can't even pop switch now, I don't know what the fuck my 14 year old brain was on) but when I started skating again my ankle was fucked and I couldn't toe flick with any authority so I decided to try to learn them.

This is the vid that helped me unlock them. Lots of good tips but it was mostly the aiming the flick part that kinda made me go "oh... That's how you do them."


https://youtu.be/VkZdstDoClY

Also regarding your hack, I actually had a similar breakthrough doing basically the same thing except with tre flips. I watched a cobra trick tip and he mentioned that you'll always struggle with tres and kickflips under you unless you keep your body centered over the back truck (move your head to adjust yourself, sounds weird but works) and your weight forward on your toes. So this isn't limited to heelflips. Definitely worth trying if you're struggling with other basic flip tricks like I do daily.
[close]

Dude. The heel flip video very nice.
The real one was the Cole 360 flip tutorial: back foot placement, head placement, aiming the front foot. Got several.

I really appreciate all of the contributions to this thread. Silhouette’s treatise on pre loading is great and was really helpful to the sesh. I spend a lot of time riding different boards/setups, and trying to get my basic flatground stuff going. The local park has some really intimidating transitions, and then not much flat or ‘street’ stuff. Thinking about building up tension before popping my kickflips was helping me on a type of setup that I don’t normally think I like. The results were very good.

As an aside, I think I need to build up more lower body strength. This only seems odd to me in that my lower body is over developed, and especially in proportion to my core and upper body, both are sorely lacking. I saw a skater specific strength test on IG calling for something like 37 single leg calf raises and 22 single leg squats. I am definitely not there yet.
[close]

after I tore ligaments in my ankle last January, the PT got me on single leg calf raises and squats. I've quit with the squats, but I bust out 20 single leg calf raises and heel dips on each leg before I go running in the morning. this, with 1 leg balancing on a balance ball or even a loose skateboard, does some serious work and will increase your pop.

I was waiting for you to respond to that haha. Just noticed the deck in your pics too. Such a nice shape, the wb is just too weird for me. Do your heels slow roll on it? I remember that being an issue when I tried them but I was doing them differently (more of a "lift and slide off" than a solid single flick motion) back then. I can spin an 8.5 fine now as long as it doesn't have like 159 standards or something on it. I wear out quick though haha.

rocklobster

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2022, 07:16:21 AM »
Ok I'm sold, after reading this thread I gave them a whirl and actually landed 5 out of 9 attempted which really gratifying even though they were mobbed, at least I wasn't kicking my heel out and the board doing zero spin.

Didn't do anything special - just get a solid pop, drag and tip my heel out diagonally and wait for the catch. In the past I tried to do them like kickflips - drag straight to the nose and flick off the edge of the nose, or flick out prematurely not catching any deck on my shoes.

Hopefully this doesn't jinx any sustained success with this trick. (it will)

Ol Nick

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Re: Heelflip breakthrough - weird hack
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2022, 01:26:28 PM »
I noticed a few days ago that the board flips right up to where it should be caught, leveled out, etc. if I’m looking ahead of me when I pop. Looking down, it usually floats more toward the heel side and doesn’t flip as clean.

Anyone else run into this at some point? I’m not sure where to go with it cause even though the board ends up right where I want it, it pops so much higher, I can’t shift my gaze quick enough to get my feet in place to catch it. Do I just need to keep trying till my legs have the muscle memory to catch it without looking?