some girl contest skater making a huge fuss over losing to a trans woman

[Monopolyman]

@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

[MysticalTypeExperience]

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Apologies if this was already posted, but it's a pretty good video overview of the situation. It shows some brief clips from the actual contest in question, and cites slap as well. What surprises me is that apparently this contest actually took place nearly half a year ago, and the skill level, between 1st and 2nd place -- based on the available footage -- really doesn't look worlds apart from what I was expecting.




Around 4:50 this guy gets into guidelines for the UK sports council who tried to tackle the issue/complications of trans-athletes competing in sports. They determine that there is an unfair advantage, and that it's just a matter of what to prioritize. He has a lot of different videos which go over similar situations of Trans-athletes in sports, and mostly takes an objective scientific look into things. He seems to view it as an impasse, in where the carry over advantages of a male-to-female trans-athlete can't be negated, but also acknowledges that it sucks and is unfortunate for trans-athletes who identify with a certain sex and want to be equal.




-Idk, it's a tough situation. Because, as most people would hopefully agree on: the goal is inclusivity. Yet how do we accommodate both parties involved when it can potentially conflict with competitive fairness. In the Redbull situation I don't really see how the testosterone exposure of Gallagher being a biological male, carried her with a win over Taylor; cause its not like she was doing gnarly skating that would equate to high level or maybe even intermediate men's skating.

It doesn't really seem like there is a clear-cut solution in trans-athletes competing without undercutting women who might feel the same way that Silverman does. Conversely, if we separate trans-athletes from competing in women's sports, then it defeats the purpose of inclusivity as well, which is undesirable. And how do you do it all without possibly feeding into anti-trans sentiments? Hard to say where to go.

[close]

I feel like this might have been covered here a bit, but while I agree with most of what you’re saying, it seems like you’re somewhat intent on trying to oppease people like Taylor Silverman… to which I’d ask, why does she need to be catered to at all?  It seems like such a small subsect of people who are actually bothered by the way this random Red Bull contest was conducted.  Some of the other women competing in her series actually thought Taylor was scored too highly for her freestyle-adjacent tricks.  What about Taylor Silverman’s story makes us think we need to do a deeper dive on best practices?  Maybe she should just shut her mouth and skate.

What the fuck is this useless ass comment? These people are potentially trying to make careers out of skateboarding. A Red Bull contest isn't the same as some backyard contest with no prize money.

You're accepting that science is telling us there are unfair advantages, but we should just ignore science? Are you some Evangelist Christian?

I can't fucking fathom your "do nothing" response after acknowledging the science.

[baulsacc_mcvinegar]

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Apologies if this was already posted, but it's a pretty good video overview of the situation. It shows some brief clips from the actual contest in question, and cites slap as well. What surprises me is that apparently this contest actually took place nearly half a year ago, and the skill level, between 1st and 2nd place -- based on the available footage -- really doesn't look worlds apart from what I was expecting.




Around 4:50 this guy gets into guidelines for the UK sports council who tried to tackle the issue/complications of trans-athletes competing in sports. They determine that there is an unfair advantage, and that it's just a matter of what to prioritize. He has a lot of different videos which go over similar situations of Trans-athletes in sports, and mostly takes an objective scientific look into things. He seems to view it as an impasse, in where the carry over advantages of a male-to-female trans-athlete can't be negated, but also acknowledges that it sucks and is unfortunate for trans-athletes who identify with a certain sex and want to be equal.




-Idk, it's a tough situation. Because, as most people would hopefully agree on: the goal is inclusivity. Yet how do we accommodate both parties involved when it can potentially conflict with competitive fairness. In the Redbull situation I don't really see how the testosterone exposure of Gallagher being a biological male, carried her with a win over Taylor; cause its not like she was doing gnarly skating that would equate to high level or maybe even intermediate men's skating.

It doesn't really seem like there is a clear-cut solution in trans-athletes competing without undercutting women who might feel the same way that Silverman does. Conversely, if we separate trans-athletes from competing in women's sports, then it defeats the purpose of inclusivity as well, which is undesirable. And how do you do it all without possibly feeding into anti-trans sentiments? Hard to say where to go.

[close]

I feel like this might have been covered here a bit, but while I agree with most of what you’re saying, it seems like you’re somewhat intent on trying to oppease people like Taylor Silverman… to which I’d ask, why does she need to be catered to at all?  It seems like such a small subsect of people who are actually bothered by the way this random Red Bull contest was conducted.  Some of the other women competing in her series actually thought Taylor was scored too highly for her freestyle-adjacent tricks.  What about Taylor Silverman’s story makes us think we need to do a deeper dive on best practices?  Maybe she should just shut her mouth and skate.

[close]

What the fuck is this useless ass comment? These people are potentially trying to make careers out of skateboarding. A Red Bull contest isn't the same as some backyard contest with no prize money.

You're accepting that science is telling us there are unfair advantages, but we should just ignore science? Are you some Evangelist Christian?

I can't fucking fathom your "do nothing" response after acknowledging the science.

There is literally nothing to do because this isn't actually a problem

[caked]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

these are the most important parts and very well said. it's sort of "whataboutism" when folks in this thread focus on transgender physicality. that is not the core issue here. the issue is TRANSPHOBIA! the issue is this silly xenophobic girl waited around 6 months to be vocal about her perceived inequality, when there is video and social media proof that she seem very content with her placement at the time of the event.

again, as I said in my previous post, the science is there but it's very grey. this is very normal. individual bodies are not the same, we cannot with certainty determine if one athlete is the same as another. WHY WOULD WE WANT TO? competition would be so boring! it would never work in skateboarding! like many others have said, it's a very creative and diverse sport, so there is hardly justification to be this scrutinizing. we have to embrace the diversity of skate athletes because the sport itself demands diversity.

[disappointed]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

[close]

these are the most important parts and very well said. it's sort of "whataboutism" when folks in this thread focus on transgender physicality. that is not the core issue here. the issue is TRANSPHOBIA! the issue is this silly xenophobic girl waited around 6 months to be vocal about her perceived inequality, when there is video and social media proof that she seem very content with her placement at the time of the event.

again, as I said in my previous post, the science is there but it's very grey. this is very normal. individual bodies are not the same, we cannot with certainty determine if one athlete is the same as another. WHY WOULD WE WANT TO? competition would be so boring! it would never work in skateboarding! like many others have said, it's a very creative and diverse sport, so there is hardly justification to be this scrutinizing. we have to embrace the diversity of skate athletes because the sport itself demands diversity.

“...creative and diverse sport...”
“...skate athletes and the sport itself...”

That may be the most triggering statements in this whole thread!!! Do you even skate?? Narc?

[caked]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

[close]

these are the most important parts and very well said. it's sort of "whataboutism" when folks in this thread focus on transgender physicality. that is not the core issue here. the issue is TRANSPHOBIA! the issue is this silly xenophobic girl waited around 6 months to be vocal about her perceived inequality, when there is video and social media proof that she seem very content with her placement at the time of the event.

again, as I said in my previous post, the science is there but it's very grey. this is very normal. individual bodies are not the same, we cannot with certainty determine if one athlete is the same as another. WHY WOULD WE WANT TO? competition would be so boring! it would never work in skateboarding! like many others have said, it's a very creative and diverse sport, so there is hardly justification to be this scrutinizing. we have to embrace the diversity of skate athletes because the sport itself demands diversity.

[close]

“...creative and diverse sport...”
“...skate athletes and the sport itself...”

Said no skateboader ever. Do you even skate?? Narc?

I think/hope this is in jest but I honestly don't know. we're talking about contests so I used the word "sport", apologies for all those I offended lmao. sigh...

[disappointed]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

[close]

these are the most important parts and very well said. it's sort of "whataboutism" when folks in this thread focus on transgender physicality. that is not the core issue here. the issue is TRANSPHOBIA! the issue is this silly xenophobic girl waited around 6 months to be vocal about her perceived inequality, when there is video and social media proof that she seem very content with her placement at the time of the event.

again, as I said in my previous post, the science is there but it's very grey. this is very normal. individual bodies are not the same, we cannot with certainty determine if one athlete is the same as another. WHY WOULD WE WANT TO? competition would be so boring! it would never work in skateboarding! like many others have said, it's a very creative and diverse sport, so there is hardly justification to be this scrutinizing. we have to embrace the diversity of skate athletes because the sport itself demands diversity.

[close]

“...creative and diverse sport...”
“...skate athletes and the sport itself...”

Said no skateboader ever. Do you even skate?? Narc?

[close]

I think/hope this is in jest but I honestly don't know. we're talking about contests so I used the word "sport", apologies for all those I offended lmao. sigh...

1. Yes, it’s in jest.

2. Skateboarding is not a sport.

Even when it’s a contest, competition, event; it’s still not a sport. So saying; “it’s a very diverse and creative sport” and “the sport itself” when referring to skateboarding is wrong.

I’m sorry to call you out on this, but we need to protect...

This Thing Of Ours

 

[sharkjumper]

What the fuck is this useless ass comment? These people are potentially trying to make careers out of skateboarding. A Red Bull contest isn't the same as some backyard contest with no prize money.

Imagine thinking that a objectively bad, 27 year old, transphobe skater is going to make a career out of skating from placing in a regional Red Bull contest. Lol

[DaleSr]

I still just think it's ridiculous to believe that there will ever be enough trans people competing in high-level sports to justify the outrage. Hit me up when women's street league is being completely dominated by trans women and I'll admit I'm wrong, but it's just not going to happen. The amount of trauma you have to submit yourself to to transition in this country doesn't seem worth it for $5000 and a redbull trophy

It really highlights the way these people's minds work because they always bring up bad faith arguments like "tfw Mike Tyson puts on a wig and becomes womenz boxing champion 😂😂😂" and it shows that they completely don't understand Trans issues. They just think Trans people just are looking for ways to cheat and get ahead, because that's how they operate, when in reality most Trans people just want to be left alone or not noticed at all and operate like a normal member of society.

[franquietits]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

Yeah, perhaps its indirectly humoring her, but it's still a relevant point of the conversation. I'm also just thinking more about the wider conversation/conflict that arises from trans peoples competing in sports. Beyond just this case. Of course, inclusivity and making every participant feel important is definitely the goal. I'm just acknowledging the complications of the whole situation (or ones like it) and not just totally dismissing the potential objections that can arise from the position of the biological female. As I've alluded to, it's tricky to do without being Pidgeon-holed into a trans-phobic/exclusivity role. It's hard to judge in this particular instance with Taylor, because it's not really high level skate competition in where there is conspicuous differences between the two ladies performances (that can be attributed to biological makeup). I don't think Gallagher was unfit to compete as a woman; Her standard of skating looks like something achievable for Taylor. It even appeared in the dumbdata video that Taylor placed first in a men's competition at some point prior to the finals, which obfuscates her argument that she was robbed. I don't have any solutions exactly. But how do you assuage the concerns of someone like Taylor across all sports? The tension is going to continue to be there. I don't know. It does seem like a lose-lose situation. However, I agree that prioritizing inclusion is worth a lot.

[Alan]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

[close]

Yeah, perhaps its indirectly humoring her, but it's still a relevant point of the conversation. I'm also just thinking more about the wider conversation/conflict that arises from trans peoples competing in sports. Beyond just this case. Of course, inclusivity and making every participant feel important is definitely the goal. I'm just acknowledging the complications of the whole situation (or ones like it) and not just totally dismissing the potential objections that can arise from the position of the biological female. As I've alluded to, it's tricky to do without being Pidgeon-holed into a trans-phobic/exclusivity role. It's hard to judge in this particular instance with Taylor, because it's not really high level skate competition in where there is conspicuous differences between the two ladies performances (that can be attributed to biological makeup). I don't think Gallagher was unfit to compete as a woman; Her standard of skating looks like something achievable for Taylor. It even appeared in the dumbdata video that Taylor placed first in a men's competition at some point prior to the finals, which obfuscates her argument that she was robbed. I don't have any solutions exactly. But how do you assuage the concerns of someone like Taylor across all sports? The tension is going to continue to be there. I don't know. It does seem like a lose-lose situation. However, I agree that prioritizing inclusion is worth a lot.

I feel like you're close to a breakthrough here. It gets easy if you accept that trans women are women and that Taylor's grievances are made in bad faith.

[DaleSr]

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@Monopolyman
Not sure what you mean by appease people like Taylor: people willing to take an objective look at it, or those who use it to perpetuate trans exclusiveness? I hope not the latter. The objective nature of the biological differences between biological women and trans-women are undeniable by science, however I don't really feel that Taylor is justified in saying that she lost simply because it was against a trans-woman. I mostly say this considering that the level of skating was a bit low; From what available clips there were of both competitors, Gallagher's clips look in line with the ability of a lot of women's skating that I've seen.

But I'm mostly just learning, myself. I think using skating to judge scenarios/complications of trans-women in women's sports is kind of a poor benchmark. It kind of makes more sense in other sports where athletic qualities are more apparent up front, like whose the fastest or strongest. Skating can only guide those facets so much, because it is a creative sport in where those qualities don't always matter. I think some women have the case to say it can cross the line of competitive fairness. But it's like, how do you do it without disrespecting supporters of the trans-community and fueling already existing trans-phobia (which is what we don't want). I really don't know what the solutions are that can accommodate everyone. I'm certainly not on the side of, "get em out of here... have them make their own division!" It just seems tricky to balance inclusivity and fairness with such a situation. I mean, it's a story that's going to keep coming up in all different avenues of sports. This was just one instance.

[close]

It’s been said it in this thread before but why does competition have to be perfectly fair?  Everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages, gender aside.  My point is that in breaking down “biological male” vs “biological female” you’re humoring someone who’s completely exploited the conversation.  Perhaps without realizing it youre sort of taking Taylor’s side (or at least doing what she’d like you to) by asking if her competitor, by holding some perceived advantage, is in fact less of a woman than she is and somehow potentially unfit to compete as such.  I find her sentiments offensive, and no amount of “science” will undo my belief that this isn’t an actual issue in skating (or most sport for that matter).  Only a skater realizing they’ll never “make it” would take this leap to bring this to light.  In case this isn’t resonating, I’ll phrase it like this.  I’d rather take this stance and let one more LGBT skater feel included and important than question the ethics of competition in anyway and give a single skater pause about how they fit into things

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Yeah, perhaps its indirectly humoring her, but it's still a relevant point of the conversation. I'm also just thinking more about the wider conversation/conflict that arises from trans peoples competing in sports. Beyond just this case. Of course, inclusivity and making every participant feel important is definitely the goal. I'm just acknowledging the complications of the whole situation (or ones like it) and not just totally dismissing the potential objections that can arise from the position of the biological female. As I've alluded to, it's tricky to do without being Pidgeon-holed into a trans-phobic/exclusivity role. It's hard to judge in this particular instance with Taylor, because it's not really high level skate competition in where there is conspicuous differences between the two ladies performances (that can be attributed to biological makeup). I don't think Gallagher was unfit to compete as a woman; Her standard of skating looks like something achievable for Taylor. It even appeared in the dumbdata video that Taylor placed first in a men's competition at some point prior to the finals, which obfuscates her argument that she was robbed. I don't have any solutions exactly. But how do you assuage the concerns of someone like Taylor across all sports? The tension is going to continue to be there. I don't know. It does seem like a lose-lose situation. However, I agree that prioritizing inclusion is worth a lot.

[close]

I feel like you're close to a breakthrough here. It gets easy if you accept that trans women are women and that Taylor's grievances are made in bad faith.

Bingo, she doesn't care about skateboarding or the sanctity of women skating beyond how it affects her and how much she makes at contests. She's a culture vulture and she doesn't even adopt our culture well or convincingly

[skate_or_dingus]

BuT tHe ScIeNcE dooooooooood

[franquietits]

Alright. I'm getting kind of tired of this thread, tbh. "Accept a transwoman as a woman... almost there, bud!" I mean, duh. Hence my language of referring to Gallagher as a woman, and consistently appealing to inclusiveness, while wallowing in the complexity of the opposition. Which is something that everyone will have to continue to reckon with and break down in order to make gains over the presence of trans people in all different types of community. I do also disagree with Taylor's position.

Anyways, I found a pretty good interview conducted by sports writer Dave Zirin, who does a pretty amazing job at covering the intersection between sports and politics. He interviews a transgender Olympian on the struggles of trans-peoples in sports. As someone still learning, he does a pretty good job at pointing out the lay-of-the-land in terms of the enduring struggle trans people face, and have faced. He makes reference to what he sees as a cheap argument of "inclusivity vs fairness", which I admittedly thought was important (and probably still has some merit; but maybe easier to judge somehow on a case by case basis), but he loosely refers to statistics that reveal that trans people in sports don't do much better than their cisgender counterparts (the article didn't name or link to said data, but I'll take their word for it). I read somewhere else that trans men have some success in sports as well, which is cool. I think he hits the nail on the head pretty well with what I think some of you were attempting to do, and not just simply urging acceptance. It's a good read. I think we can all learn from it.

My posts were partly just about pointing out the impasse people have over the physiological parameters, and wondering how to get past it. I think everyone is more worried about the social parameters behind it, which is understandable, as I also want everyone to feel safe and included. I mean it's a complex and sensitive issue, so... yeah.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/interview-chris-mosier/

[Alan]

My posts were partly just about pointing out the impasse people have over the physiological parameters, and wondering how to get past it. I think everyone is more worried about the social parameters behind it, which is understandable, as I also want everyone to feel safe and included. I mean it's a complex and sensitive issue, so... yeah.

I mean, there's a name for these people, and they're the only ones hung up on this issue. Not sure accommodating them would help the matter. Anyway, good luck with figuring this out for yourself.

[disappointed]

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My posts were partly just about pointing out the impasse people have over the physiological parameters, and wondering how to get past it. I think everyone is more worried about the social parameters behind it, which is understandable, as I also want everyone to feel safe and included. I mean it's a complex and sensitive issue, so... yeah.

[close]

I mean, there's a name for these people, and they're the only ones hung up on this issue. Not sure accommodating them would help the matter. Anyway, good luck with figuring this out for yourself.

Women? Biologists?

[indysk8r]

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Not just happening in skating, happening across the board with a lot of competitive sports. It is kinda unfair since people/genders are built differently naturally, thus why we have women's and mens sports separately. Of course there is the rare exception but I’m sure every one will be offended I said that.

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Yeah, in my city there was a youth football team that had a trans somoan player, like we're talking about someone who was 6ft and bulky, would have proved to be a challenge even if they were playing on a mens team for their age group. Some people like to blabber on how sexes are equal and all that PC bullshit, but there are clear genetic differences that no amount of hormone therapy or w/e will ever be able to correct.

[close]

There are differences in the same sex too. Are we going to start letting a 5 foot person start saying a 6 foot guy is unfair because he can dunk? You play the hand you are dealt.

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THIS , if you really wanna argue FAIRNESS, then you cant apply it to sports cause the whole point of competition sports is to Beat the other contenders , the logical solution is divide sports by weight class, and not gender but transphobes don't want to hear that

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Wasn't going to bother with this thread any longer as it's barely related to skating at this point, but pointing out that the biological sex you are born has an impact on your physical capibilites does not make one a transphobe.
Yeah, in a just and perfect world, a male and female of equivalent height/weight would on average perform equally well athletically, however it's just not the case. How do you think a male vs female boxer of the same weight division would go?

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cause those physical capabilities are not exclusive to ones gender , what you're stating is old and outdated science , we now understand a lot more about gender and sex and there are not that many differences when comparing men and women, there can be super buff women and there can be smaller men, humans come in a variety of shapes sizes colors and we now know, genders and sexes as well

and it would probably go the same as they are going now, if anything it might improve competition and make for some exciting fights, that's if you're really honest about wanting to have fair and competitive sports for both to be true there should be no segregation, and within weight classes skill will prevail regardless of gender

if there is no difference , then how come in the olympics girls were getting much lower scores than men

[Monopolyman]

Please consider locking the thread, it’s all trolls at this point

[toe_knee]

Please consider locking the thread, it’s all trolls at this point

This

[The real veganshawn]

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Please consider locking the thread, it’s all trolls at this point

[close]

This

[layzieyez]

Before this is locked up, I want to post this photo of Tommy Guerrero congratulating my friend, Jamie Reyes on beating out everyone in her age division and getting sponsored by Real as a result.

[goldfishboot]

that's a nice bookend. locking