Leftist thread 2: the saga continues

[therealnod]

He does try to vote for the most left candidate? That's not what he said. This is what he said:

If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.

If I say
You can't trust that. That person is telling you that they don't actually do that. That was the reason I linked the Ochs song.
Nobody said it has anything to do with winning an argument on the internet. Dude gave his assessment of a political position and I gave my assessment of his.

[BurgerCop]

He does try to vote for the most left candidate? That's not what he said. This is what he said:

Expand Quote

If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.

[close]

If I say
You can't trust that. That person is telling you that they don't actually do that. That was the reason I linked the Ochs song.
Nobody said it has anything to do with winning an argument on the internet. Dude gave his assessment of a political position and I gave my assessment of his.

Oh, I do vote in every election, including primaries. I voted for Lucas Kunce just a few days ago, he was endorsed by Bernie Sanders which goes a long way for me. He lost to some rich, white lady (Trudy Busch-Valentine). I'll still vote for her in November though cause the Republicans candidates here in Missouri are fucking psychopaths. She's not perfect but at least she's in favor of gay and women's rights, is in favor of raising minimum wage and seems to have the backing of a lot of local labor unions.

[therealnod]

So then what was the point of your rant?

[MorningSesh]

Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.

[therealnod]

Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.

Spain, Scotland, Japan, Iceland, The United Arab Emirates (!) are all doing it.
There was a bill in the house to shorten the workweek to 32 hours. I'm sure American workers will get there someday, just not the ones that process food or do any kind of serious labor. It's America, after all. Poor people work hard so we don't have to.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e
https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours

[milk.razor]

joined up the local DSA. i know everybody has opinions about the red rose folks but it’ll be my first experience participating in an actual organization

[Abyss1]

New Leftist podcast w/ jason myles and left reckoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6klnIt5Jeo
 

[caked]

From what I've witnessed in my life, one of the biggest differences between the hard left and hard right is that the hard right is good at reaching a wider audience while the hard left is full of pretentious windbags who seemingly go out of their way to alienate anyone who isn't perfectly in lockstep with them.
The right is willing to grind.
The left refuses to participate unless all their dreams will come true RIGHT NOW.

I vote Democrat, which I guess is probably bad or something? Maybe voting at all is bad?
 I don't even fucking know what pleases you turds. I want what's best for everyone, I'm pro Union, pro Healthcare, pro reproductive rights, pro LGBTQ+ rights but it's just not enough. Anytime I encounter internet "leftists" they're just the most insufferable fucking people. If I say I'm voting for whichever is the most leftist candidate available it doesn't mean I think they're a golden god or going to usher us into utopia RIGHT NOW, it just means I at least don't want more hyper-right judges being appointed.

I'm sorry you can't have your flawless utopia literally fucking overnight, we're gonna have to fucking grind for it and that's gonna mean making some ugly decisions now and then you fucking crybabies. Jesus fucking christ.

I think you have sensationally misplaced your anger. The anger comes from exasperation, right? We're all exasperated here. Americans are pretty insufferable in general. The weight of unfettered capitalism has exasperated many. There's no need to rant at internet leftists, it's very unhelpful and just contributes to division. Harness the anger against those who deserve it most. Corporations and politicians.

[MorningSesh]

Expand Quote

Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.

[close]

Spain, Scotland, Japan, Iceland, The United Arab Emirates (!) are all doing it.
There was a bill in the house to shorten the workweek to 32 hours. I'm sure American workers will get there someday, just not the ones that process food or do any kind of serious labor. It's America, after all. Poor people work hard so we don't have to.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e
https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours

Thanks for sharing that article, didn’t know about the legislation introduced. That’s good although sadly I think you’re right about America & it’s attitude towards poor people. I can see how a shorter work week may not end up applying to a lot of workers.

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Yall think we’ll see a general standard for a shorter work week in our lifetime? i.e 32hours/4 day work week. I’ve read there are countries like Spain experimenting with this already.

[close]

Spain, Scotland, Japan, Iceland, The United Arab Emirates (!) are all doing it.
There was a bill in the house to shorten the workweek to 32 hours. I'm sure American workers will get there someday, just not the ones that process food or do any kind of serious labor. It's America, after all. Poor people work hard so we don't have to.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/02/15/belgium-is-the-latest-country-to-join-the-four-day-workweek/?sh=7fa3fa578f2e
https://takano.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/rep-takano-introduces-legislation-to-reduce-the-standard-workweek-to-32-hours

[close]

Thanks for sharing that article, didn’t know about the legislation introduced. That’s good although sadly I think you’re right about America & it’s attitude towards poor people. I can see how a shorter work week may not end up applying to a lot of workers.

I often think of this movie quote when it comes to how we human beings conduct our affairs, which I think explains why it tends to be miserable to be a leftist:

It must be nice to always believe you know better, to always think you're the smartest person in the room

No, it's awful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ATJhCIeaqo

[therealnod]

New Leftist podcast w/ jason myles and left reckoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6klnIt5Jeo

I've been watching both channels for a while now. Well, I'm one of the first 100 Left Reckoning patrons (#90 something, they went fast). I had been a patron of The Michael Brooks Show which is basically what Left Reckoning is minus Brooks. During lockdown I hung out on the TMBS discord a lot, mostly while The Majority Report and TMBS were live. I was hanging out there the day Michael passed. There were about three hours when no one really knew why MR ended suddenly.

I enjoy This Is Revolution and think them and LR doing shows together is a good idea.

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.

https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/

A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.

[close]

I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up

[close]

It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.

On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.

http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo

Here is Bad Empanada going over this clip. Now, Empanada is a mixed bag; he does very well researched video essays that are excellent and does pretty good on-the-fly analysis most of the time. He knows a lot about the issues. He also has some kind of online personality disorder that makes him insufferable once provoked by the slightest disagreement. It's like he has a video personality and a text personality. This is the video personality, and it's a pretty good breakdown of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI

[Abyss1]

Expand Quote

New Leftist podcast w/ jason myles and left reckoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6klnIt5Jeo

[close]

I've been watching both channels for a while now. Well, I'm one of the first 100 Left Reckoning patrons (#90 something, they went fast). I had been a patron of The Michael Brooks Show which is basically what Left Reckoning is minus Brooks. During lockdown I hung out on the TMBS discord a lot, mostly while The Majority Report and TMBS were live. I was hanging out there the day Michael passed. There were about three hours when no one really knew why MR ended suddenly.

I enjoy This Is Revolution and think them and LR doing shows together is a good idea.

I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice.  I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience.  Took a minute to start watching MR again

[therealnod]

I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice.  I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience.  Took a minute to start watching MR again

That particular dynamic MR had at that time, with Jamie being the deadass communist, Sam being the bland progressive, and Michael being the bridge between the two of them was unique. Pretty good encapsulation of what passes for the American left.

[Garth Marenghi]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.

https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/

A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.

[close]

I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up

[close]

It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.

On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.

http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo

[close]

Here is Bad Empanada going over this clip. Now, Empanada is a mixed bag; he does very well researched video essays that are excellent and does pretty good on-the-fly analysis most of the time. He knows a lot about the issues. He also has some kind of online personality disorder that makes him insufferable once provoked by the slightest disagreement. It's like he has a video personality and a text personality. This is the video personality, and it's a pretty good breakdown of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI

He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.

https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/

A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.

[close]

I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up

[close]

It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.

On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.

http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo

[close]

Here is Bad Empanada going over this clip. Now, Empanada is a mixed bag; he does very well researched video essays that are excellent and does pretty good on-the-fly analysis most of the time. He knows a lot about the issues. He also has some kind of online personality disorder that makes him insufferable once provoked by the slightest disagreement. It's like he has a video personality and a text personality. This is the video personality, and it's a pretty good breakdown of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI

[close]

He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.

What genocide has he denied?

[Garth Marenghi]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.

https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/

A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.

[close]

I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up

[close]

It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.

On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.

http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo

[close]

Here is Bad Empanada going over this clip. Now, Empanada is a mixed bag; he does very well researched video essays that are excellent and does pretty good on-the-fly analysis most of the time. He knows a lot about the issues. He also has some kind of online personality disorder that makes him insufferable once provoked by the slightest disagreement. It's like he has a video personality and a text personality. This is the video personality, and it's a pretty good breakdown of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI

[close]

He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.

[close]

What genocide has he denied?

Misremembered him being an "Uyghur genocide isn't happening" tankie. Apologies. Good to know he draws the line somewhere, though he comes off as an unhinged person when it comes to interactions online. Threats of doxxing, pedojacketing and generally toxic behaviour.

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Blowback podcast season 3 is about the Korean War. I've been listening to it and it's really good so far.

https://pod.mtndewamp.com/blowback/

A war that's been "forgotten" for very intentional reasons but learning its history sheds a lot of light on American foreign policy in Asia and anti-communism.

[close]

I've been listening as well and getting fully juche pilled. Jk but shit is fucked up

[close]

It really is. Most people have only heard the official propaganda version that the north invaded the south and the US stepped in to save Korea from the commies.

On another note, holy shit Roger Waters is based AF. Makes me wanna get more into Pink Floyd.

http://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo

[close]

Here is Bad Empanada going over this clip. Now, Empanada is a mixed bag; he does very well researched video essays that are excellent and does pretty good on-the-fly analysis most of the time. He knows a lot about the issues. He also has some kind of online personality disorder that makes him insufferable once provoked by the slightest disagreement. It's like he has a video personality and a text personality. This is the video personality, and it's a pretty good breakdown of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOPSYtHLEI

[close]

He's also a genocide denier so I wouldn't take his video essays or analysis to heart, either.

[close]

What genocide has he denied?

[close]

Misremembered him being an "Uyghur genocide isn't happening" tankie. Apologies. Good to know he draws the line somewhere, though he comes off as an unhinged person when it comes to interactions online. Threats of doxxing, pedojacketing and generally toxic behaviour.

No prob. There's definitely something weird happening with that person. I think he's on his fourth Twitter account by now. It's pretty bizarre.

[Abyss1]

Expand Quote

I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice.  I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience.  Took a minute to start watching MR again

[close]

That particular dynamic MR had at that time, with Jamie being the deadass communist, Sam being the bland progressive, and Michael being the bridge between the two of them was unique. Pretty good encapsulation of what passes for the American left.

I liked Jaimes communist rantings a lot, plus she was often times stoned which was cool, i think shes friends with Skrillex which is random as fuck

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice.  I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience.  Took a minute to start watching MR again

[close]

That particular dynamic MR had at that time, with Jamie being the deadass communist, Sam being the bland progressive, and Michael being the bridge between the two of them was unique. Pretty good encapsulation of what passes for the American left.

[close]

I liked Jaimes communist rantings a lot, plus she was often times stoned which was cool, i think shes friends with Skrillex which is random as fuck

Did you ever listen to her podcast The Antifada? There was (maybe still is, idk) a series they did called History Is A Weapon that is really good. They did a two-parter on Nixon that was just amazing.

[Abyss1]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

I actually got into TMBS before majority report, Micheal was just going in on Sam Harris and his logic and argument skill were nice.  I tunned in to MR just to get Micheals takes and actually stopped watching for a while when Sam blew up on Jaime, i hadnt tuned into both shows because of early pandemic shit and when he passed just fucked up my news experience.  Took a minute to start watching MR again

[close]

That particular dynamic MR had at that time, with Jamie being the deadass communist, Sam being the bland progressive, and Michael being the bridge between the two of them was unique. Pretty good encapsulation of what passes for the American left.

[close]

I liked Jaimes communist rantings a lot, plus she was often times stoned which was cool, i think shes friends with Skrillex which is random as fuck

[close]

Did you ever listen to her podcast The Antifada? There was (maybe still is, idk) a series they did called History Is A Weapon that is really good. They did a two-parter on Nixon that was just amazing.

Yea shes not always on that show but i followed them when i was on twitch last year

[weon]

controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.

feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here

anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.

[therealnod]

controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.

feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here

anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.

I don't think there is such a thing as you're asking for, not that I've been able to find in terms of a nuanced anti-imperialist take. But I don't think it's that difficult to get a basic understanding of it. Basically, it's China's version of the US War On Terror, which the CCP has actually referenced. They don't deny the existence of "reeducation camps" or the reason for them, which is just good old fashioned Islamophobia. Reports vary on conditions in the camps, but from what I can gather it's probably somewhere between Gitmo and US immigrant detention centers. So definitely human rights violations. Is China doing imperialism? Yes. Are they lying about it? Of course. Is there misinformation coming out of America? You bet your ass. These are the two main players on the world stage now. The Belt and Road Initiative is American imperialism with Chinese characteristics, which involves a lot less bombing of other countries. When the US starts pointing fingers at other countries for human rights violations, it's never really about that. The US doesn't give a shit...they've done far worse. It's about economic things. But yes, China is purposely mistreating the Uyghurs and it's egregious. Think of what the US does and has done to suspected terrorists and "illegal" immigrants and that should get you pretty close.

This is why I favor anarcho-syndicalism. Nation-states suck shit.

[weon]

Expand Quote

controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.

feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here

anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.

[close]

I don't think there is such a thing as you're asking for, not that I've been able to find in terms of a nuanced anti-imperialist take. But I don't think it's that difficult to get a basic understanding of it. Basically, it's China's version of the US War On Terror, which the CCP has actually referenced. They don't deny the existence of "reeducation camps" or the reason for them, which is just good old fashioned Islamophobia. Reports vary on conditions in the camps, but from what I can gather it's probably somewhere between Gitmo and US immigrant detention centers. So definitely human rights violations. Is China doing imperialism? Yes. Are they lying about it? Of course. Is there misinformation coming out of America? You bet your ass. These are the two main players on the world stage now. The Belt and Road Initiative is American imperialism with Chinese characteristics, which involves a lot less bombing of other countries. When the US starts pointing fingers at other countries for human rights violations, it's never really about that. The US doesn't give a shit...they've done far worse. It's about economic things. But yes, China is purposely mistreating the Uyghurs and it's egregious. Think of what the US does and has done to suspected terrorists and "illegal" immigrants and that should get you pretty close.

This is why I favor anarcho-syndicalism. Nation-states suck shit.

thanks for your take homie, it helps. i guess rethinking what i said, i was hoping for was a synthesis of facts about the situation with an anti-imperialist framing.

i have a hard time believing the islamophobia angle, since the camps have support from many muslim majority nations. some of those countries even send people to the camps. the questions remaining are who are they sending, who is sending them, and what are their alleged crimes. i think regardless of political motivations, if china's social imperialism endorsed islamophobia to that level id doubt these countries would support them in this way.

the UN human rights secretary visited the camps and said no human rights violations were taking place. do i trust her? no... mostly cus the UN is sus and i already didnt trust her when she was my president. But... so many UN members states have pushed for coining it a genocide, which makes internal UN disagreement even more confounding. the first report of human rights violations done on the camps were financed by the "Victims of Communism USA" which is a joke org to me tbh, but before that, american media was praising China for fighting alleged islamic extremism in the area.

i think this the one thing that got me almost in like an "uh oh..." way: china claiming the camps are meant to combat jihadism in the area, and the US previously being vocal about supporting that goal. made me wonder, what would be the "best" path forward for a situation like this? what is the leftist praxis to deal with society's fascists, patsocs, jihadists, christian ultranationalists, proud boys, etc.?

education is obviously the long term, intergenerational solution. do i trust that that's what china is doing? not really... hard to believe state-run media (hence why reading CCP internal documents could help). does it come closer to the "ideal" solution? maybe, perhaps a lot closer than the US has ever gotten, even if its still far... Is it genocide? i have no fucking clue... Is it horrible? likely, they're internment camps anyway you look at em...

more than anything i feel like the two options are either american-backed "its a genocide" or China-backed "we're doing good things." there's no nuance in what is being done thats truly wrong and what is the resolution of an "antagonistic contradiction" (in maoist terms). there's gotta be something we can learn from these internment camps without having to praise them or label them as genocidal, especially when our opinion on it is purely of political interest by the two largest empires in the world.

TL;DR: i think too much and it can make me sad and confused but weed sometimes helps but sometimes doesnt

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

controversial but i still have no idea or strong opinion on what's really happening in xinjiang.

feelin stuck in "is this imperialist misinformation by America/China?" limbo out here

anyone got a link to a nuanced, anti-imperialist take on it? writing preferred. maybe I should just find a way to read the leaked CCP documents.

[close]

I don't think there is such a thing as you're asking for, not that I've been able to find in terms of a nuanced anti-imperialist take. But I don't think it's that difficult to get a basic understanding of it. Basically, it's China's version of the US War On Terror, which the CCP has actually referenced. They don't deny the existence of "reeducation camps" or the reason for them, which is just good old fashioned Islamophobia. Reports vary on conditions in the camps, but from what I can gather it's probably somewhere between Gitmo and US immigrant detention centers. So definitely human rights violations. Is China doing imperialism? Yes. Are they lying about it? Of course. Is there misinformation coming out of America? You bet your ass. These are the two main players on the world stage now. The Belt and Road Initiative is American imperialism with Chinese characteristics, which involves a lot less bombing of other countries. When the US starts pointing fingers at other countries for human rights violations, it's never really about that. The US doesn't give a shit...they've done far worse. It's about economic things. But yes, China is purposely mistreating the Uyghurs and it's egregious. Think of what the US does and has done to suspected terrorists and "illegal" immigrants and that should get you pretty close.

This is why I favor anarcho-syndicalism. Nation-states suck shit.

[close]

thanks for your take homie, it helps. i guess rethinking what i said, i was hoping for was a synthesis of facts about the situation with an anti-imperialist framing.

It's China, they're not very forthcoming. Synthesis of facts is going to be extraordinarily difficult. Such is the case with all governments. I don't think they honor FOIA requests.

i have a hard time believing the islamophobia angle, since the camps have support from many muslim majority nations.

They support China, not necessarily the camps. You should go through the list of those countries. It includes North Korea, Myanmar (which just got coup'ed), Syria, Philippines...this isn't indicative of anything. The US had a nuclear deal with Iran, then didn't have a nuclear deal with Iran, and now is trying to have a nuclear deal with Iran again because we've had three different leaders in that time. Those countries don't change leadership every 4-8 years. It's a list filled with dictatorships that make any deals they want. Erdogan did a 180 on China and I assure you it's not because Turks were totally into it. Not a point in China's favor. This is just geopolitical economic stuff.
 

some of those countries even send people to the camps. the questions remaining are who are they sending, who is sending them, and what are their alleged crimes. i think regardless of political motivations, if china's social imperialism endorsed islamophobia to that level id doubt these countries would support them in this way.

They aren't so much sending them to the camps as getting rid of them. They've struck extradition deals with China. Muslim countries also "sent" their citizens to Gitmo for whatever crimes the US wanted to put people in Gitmo for. Didn't even matter if it was the right person or crime or whatever. I don't see a difference here.

the UN human rights secretary visited the camps and said no human rights violations were taking place.

That is not what she said. She said she was assured by the Chinese government that "the VETC system has been dismantled" among other assurances as they whisked her through a brief tour. Well, if they say so. The reason I bring up Gitmo and immigrant detention camps is because the story sounds exactly the same. They wouldn't let elected federal US officials into those facilities. I'm sure it was because everything was just fine.

so many UN members states have pushed for coining it a genocide, which makes internal UN disagreement even more confounding. the first report of human rights violations done on the camps were financed by the "Victims of Communism USA" which is a joke org to me tbh, but before that, american media was praising China for fighting alleged islamic extremism in the area.

Those are the western states which are always aligned with the US. They love to do this shit. Is it actually a genocide? No. Will it lead to a genocide? Not likely. That word gets overused to the point it can mean what anyone wants it to mean. This is exactly the reason I would ignore all that bullshit and only consider the people having their rights taken away. Organizations like that exist to make it easier to erode human rights. I suppose calling things "victims of communism" will never get old. It sure hasn't yet. 

i think this the one thing that got me almost in like an "uh oh..." way: china claiming the camps are meant to combat jihadism in the area, and the US previously being vocal about supporting that goal. made me wonder, what would be the "best" path forward for a situation like this? what is the leftist praxis to deal with society's fascists, patsocs, jihadists, christian ultranationalists, proud boys, etc.?

You know what happened? China became a threat to become the #1 economic power. That threatens American hegemony. America won't stand for that. It's not about anything else. What is the best path forward? Gonna have to outnumber them. How? That's a helluva question, isn't it? The praxis is to build locally. Not going to get there through federal elections until there's an underlying structure in place. This is very hard work, but it's also the easiest part.
 

Is it genocide? i have no fucking clue... Is it horrible? likely, they're internment camps anyway you look at em...

There ya go.

more than anything i feel like the two options are either american-backed "its a genocide" or China-backed "we're doing good things." there's no nuance in what is being done thats truly wrong and what is the resolution of an "antagonistic contradiction" (in maoist terms). there's gotta be something we can learn from these internment camps without having to praise them or label them as genocidal, especially when our opinion on it is purely of political interest by the two largest empires in the world.

I don't find any difficulty in saying it's not a genocide and China isn't doing good things in this regard. The camps aren't the dialectic, they're a horrible thing China is doing. Dialectics isn't considering everything a contradiction, it's finding where the internal contradictions are. Holding people against their will is objectively bad. What two different governments have to say about it is external.

TL;DR: i think too much and it can make me sad and confused but weed sometimes helps but sometimes doesnt

I hear ya. The world's a fucked up place. But think about this: we paved about as much as we could pave, and then a bunch of us figured something cool to do with it. If we didn't pave paradise, there wouldn't be skateboarding.

[weon]

i really appreciate you and your reply, truly. it brings some clarity, including that i need to take a break from bumming myself out.

skated flatground on Tuesday and didn’t land anything, not even a shuvit. still felt amazing to be back on the board after an exhausting year. we are very lucky.

[yghartsyrt]

Expand Quote

Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:

The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.

So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?

I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.

(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)

[close]

This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)

Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...

He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.

ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.

Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.

And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elite".

You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.

So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.

Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).

I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.

With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.

Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.

Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu

[cky enthusiast]

frankfurt school touches on this- simulation as a product of capital which effectively obfuscates all material analysis

[therealnod]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:

The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.

So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?

I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.

(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)

[close]

This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)

Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...

He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.

ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.

Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.

And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".

You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.

So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.

Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).

[close]

I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.

With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.

Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.

Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu

It seems you think left and right just means Democrat and Republican. One of the left's biggest criticisms of the Democratic party has been it's reliance on identity politics. In turn one of the moderates biggest criticisms of the left is that it's class reductionist. They used that very criticism on Sanders, who's at best a moderate leftist, despite him being endorsed by the person that introduced the concept of intersectionality to academia. But to be straight up about it, "no war but the class war" is not a winning message because the class war has color lines and gender lines. That's just the way it is, and trust me, you'll lose your best allies if you overlook that. The Democratic party's use of identity politics is just a cooptation of intersectionality. Intersectionality includes class analysis, it comes from it, is an extension of it. It is rooted in material analysis. There is a vast difference between it and identity politics which is why the l eft criticizes identity politics heavily. And rightly so because it's empty rhetoric and is often used to defeat leftist candidates.

[yghartsyrt]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Guys I've got a good starter for an actual discussion maybe. I've only recently been getting into my Mark Fisher (yeah I know) and something struck me, both while reading his stuff (mainly referring to the Vampire Castle essay here) and secondary literature discussing it. Some of it, including parts of Fisher's own writing, sound an awful lot like petty infighting to me, but there was an overarching theme that emerged which I really resonated with:

The left of today has lost sight of class analysis and this has paralysed it and made it easy prey for manipulation. The main reason for this (and that's what excited me) is that people aren't so much rejecting the notion of class, but that nobody knows what the word is supposed to actually mean in our world of today. We need a new and modern definition of "class" that makes it obvious that class is at the heart of ALL struggles for equality and justice.

So, what could that definition be? Or do you disagree with the argument because a) you've got a perfectly good definition already or b) class is dead to you?

I'm asking because I do agree with the argument but am not sure about what a good modern definition could be.

(Also wasn't there a thread on here a while ago that exemplifies this problem perfectly where one guy bashed on another guy about class and racism?)

[close]

This is reminding me of Thomas Frank (of the Baffler) and his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)

Thomas Frank is a sort of Social Democrat, but his point is applicable to this discussion. He basically argues that Fox News (etc.) have effectively and successfully redefined the word "class" in an effort to target and dismantle real class solidarity. Its been a while since I've read it so excuse me if I am a little off base...

He argued that conservative media had basically redefined class to purely (superficial) aesthetic qualities. They made it so to their Fox News viewers: class is NOT your economic position as a worker, but instead class is your consumer tastes and lifestyle choices.

ie) "Regular People" drink coffee and beer, "The Elites" drink lattes and wine. "Regular People" drive pickup trucks and Hummers, "The Elites" drive hybrid/electric cars. "Regular People" go to church and love their family, "The Elites" get abortions.

Its basically trying to make it so instead of class being about your economic position, class is instead about the non-traditional quality of your lifestyle and consumer habits. So even if two people are both making $50k a year, depending on their lifestyle and purchasing habits, they are a "Liberal Elite" or a regular person.

And this then applies across real economic positions. So essentially, a multi-millionaire conservative politician or TV personality is not an "Elite", BUT people who make $50k a year that get Starbucks lattes ARE a "Liberal Elit e".

You can really see this backwards mentality has expanded in the 18 years since the book. Especially with Tucker Carlson (comes from a VERY wealthy family), Trump, and all the other rich conservatives that do this fake "populism" that rallies against "The Elites" and Amazon in bad faith, while actually just hammering home social "culture war" issues to further divide conservatives from understanding class solidarity. They have no interest in actually taking on Amazon and billionaires, they just use it as a carrot on the end of the rope to double down on culture war outrage, and redirect viewers away from true class solidarity.

So again, rather than class being its true essence of workers vs. owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie) they have transformed it for their viewers to instead be conservatives. vs liberals.

Its definitely true, and as leftists we have to identify and address this dynamic when talking with centrists/conservatives (heck, and liberals... since they also have their own version of this to a certain extent).

[close]

I’d say this shift in what class means is not only happening on the right/conservative side, but also on the left side.

With the rise of a left movement that is more on the idealistic side, materialistic analysis is taking the backseat. It seems nowadays it’s more about an identity politics standpoint towards class and classism instead of discussing who owns the means of production and what this means for everyone selling their time and body in order to survive.

Not trying to equate left and right here - just stating that it seems the world has taken a turn away from viewing it through a materialistic lense.

Btw: great thread. Haven’t read everything, yet. Left wing guy with a strong leaning towards Adorno, Freud, Marx and Debord here. Although I’m not shy of reading Deleuze, Foucault or Bourdieu

[close]

It seems you think left and right just means Democrat and Republican. One of the left's biggest criticisms of the Democratic party has been it's reliance on identity politics. In turn one of the moderates biggest criticisms of the left is that it's class reductionist. They used that very criticism on Sanders, who's at best a moderate leftist, despite him being endorsed by the person that introduced the concept of intersectionality to academia. But to be straight up about it, "no war but the class war" is not a winning message because the class war has color lines and gender lines. That's just the way it is, and trust me, you'll lose your best allies if you overlook that. The Democratic party's use of identity politics is just a cooptation of intersectionality. Intersectionality includes class analysis, it comes from it, is an extension of it. It is rooted in material analysis. There is a vast difference between it and identity politics which is why the l eft criticizes identity politics heavily. And rightly so because it's empty rhetoric and is often used to defeat leftist candidates.

You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly here. I couldn’t care less about republicans & democrats. I’m not from the US and my interest in marxism is universal and beyond national politics. 
Second, if you take Marx paradigm "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" there is no need for identity politics. This already means the end of discrimination based on gender, race and whatnot. This doesn’t mean, that we don’t need to speak up, when discrimination now occurs. It is super important that we fight for equality. but this is not a means to an end. This is a symptom of capitalism.
Identity politics is an idealistic dead end. In the end it could also just mean that we just have a super diverse team of upper management.

@wane Brady exactly