Acupuncture

[shpongle]

Anybody here getting regular acupuncture treatment for our old painful skateboard bodies? Just curious. I am currently going to acupuncture school and would be fun to hear about peoples experience with it.

[L33Tg33k]

Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

[EdLawndale]

I've had accupuncture and it is very enjoyable. Cupping was cool too. I usually get accupuncture then schedule a massage for a couple hours later that day when the effects of the accupuncture really kick in...

[mj23]

Not currently but I’ve def done it before. I really enjoy the weird sensation of it but I wouldn’t say it’s like a great treatment. Sometimes it really helps reduce pain and inflammation for a few weeks. Sometimes it makes me feel better for a few hours or a few days. A few times it has actually made shit worse (but not forever, just a week or so). I’ll still go back eventually.

[mj23]

Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

Not true.

[L33Tg33k]

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Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

[close]

Not true.

Is true. https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/acupuncture-points-dont-exist/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/emotional-freedom-technique-acupuncture-for-the-mind/

Cupping doesn’t do anything either. They are placebos. But lucky for you, sense you believe in them, they might still have some minor effect.

[mj23]

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Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

[close]

Not true.

[close]

Is true. https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/acupuncture-points-dont-exist/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/emotional-freedom-technique-acupuncture-for-the-mind/

Cupping doesn’t do anything either. They are placebos. But lucky for you, sense you believe in them, they might still have some minor effect.

Both of those sources are run by the same guy, Steven Novella, and neither is a peer reviewed scientific article. The “Science Based Medicine” site is just some blog he runs via the “New England Skeptics Society.” Not exactly a prestigious source, to say the least.

But if you want to just go grabbing articles off the web and posting them because they back up your preferred conclusion I will happily play along.

Here’s an actual scientific study that found acupuncture stimulates the release of endogenous opioid peptides, ie natural chemicals that reduce the amount of pain you feel.

Ji-Sheng Han,
Acupuncture and endorphins,
Neuroscience Letters,
Volume 361, Issues 1–3,
2004,
Pages 258-261,
ISSN 0304-3940,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neulet.2003.12.019.
(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304394003014009)

Abstract: Acupuncture and electroacupuncture (EA) as complementary and alternative medicine have been accepted worldwide mainly for the treatment of acute and chronic pain. Studies on the mechanisms of action have revealed that endogenous opioid peptides in the central nervous system play an essential role in mediating the analgesic effect of EA. Further studies have shown that different kinds of neuropeptides are released by EA with different frequencies. For example, EA of 2 Hz accelerates the release of enkephalin, β-endorphin and endomorphin, while that of 100 Hz selectively increases the release of dynorphin. A combination of the two frequencies produces a simultaneous release of all four opioid peptides, resulting in a maximal therapeutic effect. This finding has been verified in clinical studies in patients with various kinds of chronic pain including low back pain and diabetic neuropathic pain.
Keywords: Acupuncture; Electroacupuncture; Opioid peptides; Pain; Analgesia

Does that mean acupuncture cures injuries? No. But it’s far from total bullshit or a placebo, as you alleged.

If you read my post above you’ll see I’m definitely not some kind of acupuncture evangelist. I basically said “It kinda works sometimes.” That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement, but I don’t think it’s intellectually honest to act like acupuncture does nothing at all.

[Freelancevagrant]

[Oaf]

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Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

[close]

Not true.

[close]

Is true. https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/acupuncture-points-dont-exist/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/emotional-freedom-technique-acupuncture-for-the-mind/

Cupping doesn’t do anything either. They are placebos. But lucky for you, sense you believe in them, they might still have some minor effect.

6 months ago my next door neighbor’s dog got hit by a car.  For 3 weeks the family next door brought their screaming dog out to piss with a harness to hold his back legs up he could barely move.  The vet figured possible nerve damage.  Poor guy would not seem to get better and I’m an animal lover so I talked over the fence with them. I stopped hearing him whining anymore one day and figured they put the poor guy down with how bad it was.  It just totally stopped and there was no more pee entourage.   A couple days later I saw the family out walking their dogs and the old bastard was wagging his tail happy as a clam, and running.  I got out of the car and chatted, and got some dog cuddles…. Turns out the dog got acupuncture, and that turned everything around right goddamn then.  Nothing else changed.

So…. Do you figure the dog just believes that hard in acupuncture, or is he so scared of needles that he’d do anything to avoid them?

[behavioralguide]

worked for my hay fever, can recommend.

[Skatebeard]

Acupuncture didn't do much for me, but oh man, IMS Needling is an absolute god-send for lower back pain. Sorted mine in 2 or 3 sessions.

https://www.carterandgeorge.co.uk/2018/01/23/all-you-need-to-know-about-ims-needling/

Highly recommend it for LBP if you can find someone locally who can administer it.

[sacking rails]

life is placebo

[sacking rails]

thats why we dont get high because drugs are illegal instead we resort to acupuncture

[sacking rails]

freebasing acupuncture

[mj23]

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Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

[close]

Not true.

[close]

Is true. https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/acupuncture-points-dont-exist/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/emotional-freedom-technique-acupuncture-for-the-mind/

Cupping doesn’t do anything either. They are placebos. But lucky for you, sense you believe in them, they might still have some minor effect.

[close]

6 months ago my next door neighbor’s dog got hit by a car.  For 3 weeks the family next door brought their screaming dog out to piss with a harness to hold his back legs up he could barely move.  The vet figured possible nerve damage.  Poor guy would not seem to get better and I’m an animal lover so I talked over the fence with them. I stopped hearing him whining anymore one day and figured they put the poor guy down with how bad it was.  It just totally stopped and there was no more pee entourage.   A couple days later I saw the family out walking their dogs and the old bastard was wagging his tail happy as a clam, and running.  I got out of the car and chatted, and got some dog cuddles…. Turns out the dog got acupuncture, and that turned everything around right goddamn then.  Nothing else changed.

So…. Do you figure the dog just believes that hard in acupuncture, or is he so scared of needles that he’d do anything to avoid them?

Yeah I’m glad you mention acupuncture in household pets. That’s actually what initially convinced me that acupuncture had something behind it— a friends brother is a veterinarian and he regularly used needles to relieve pain on their aging dogs. You could see a visible difference in the way the animals walked/ran after a treatment.

And again, this isn’t meant to say that it *cures* things (although I guess it’s possible), just that it can sometimes be an effective way of managing or treating things.

[SneakySecrets]

He pokes the needles into the dogs?

[IUTSM]

Hahaha people saying acupuncture is bullshit crack me up. Its a form of health care that's been utilized for at least 1000 years. I believe there lousy practitioners, just like there are lousy uneducated doctors, body workers, counselors etc who have a limited scope of knowledge.

I have received long tern acupuncture care as a chronic pain patient and it helped. Certain forms of body work, such as cranial sacral massage, with a practitioner knowledgeable of fascia and physical trauma, does do more work for me.

Scope of practitioner education in mind/body connection, chinese medicine, fight or flight etc, is crucial

[mj23]

He pokes the needles into the dogs?

Yup

[SneakySecrets]

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He pokes the needles into the dogs?

[close]

Yup

Boy, that’s ruff!

[BALARGUE]

Hahaha people saying acupuncture is not bullshit crack me up.

It's just like homeopathy. Pseudo science
Nobody ever proved it works better than placebo
Dog would have probably felt the same without any needle

Humanity did stupid things for millennia before being able to scientifically prove it was stupid and move on

[PuffinMuffin]

My roommate is bringing back traditional western homeopathic bloodletting with leeches. If I don't stop limping with my bad knee she'll place a leech on my back while I'm sleeping. I suddenly no longer limp from fear of leeches. I've been cured.

[EdLawndale]

PuffinMuffin on leeches, confirmed

[mj23]

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Hahaha people saying acupuncture is not bullshit crack me up.

[close]

It's just like homeopathy. Pseudo science
Nobody ever proved it works better than placebo
Dog would have probably felt the same without any needle

Humanity did stupid things for milleniums before being able to scientifically prove it was stupid and move on

I just shared a scientific article earlier in the thread that shows otherwise

Want another one? Here:

Acupuncture: theory, efficacy, and practice

Ted J Kaptchuk
Annals of internal medicine 136 (5), 374-383, 2002

URL: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=acupuncture&oq=#d=gs_qabs&t=1663342407785&u=%23p%3DTiarn3s-dCQJ

Traditionally, acupuncture is embedded in naturalistic theories that are compatible with Confucianism and Taoism. Such ideas as yin-yang, qi, dampness, and wind represent East Asian conceptual frameworks that emphasize the reliability of ordinary, human sensory awareness. Many physicians who practice acupuncture reject such prescientific notions. Numerous randomized, controlled trials and more than 25 systematic reviews and meta-analyses have evaluated the clinical efficacy of acupuncture. Evidence from these trials indicates that acupuncture is effective for emesis developing after surgery or chemotherapy in adults and for nausea associated with pregnancy. Good evidence exists that acupuncture is also effective for relieving dental pain. For such conditions as chronic pain, back pain, and headache, the data are equivocal or contradictory. Clinical research on acupuncture poses unique methodologic challenges. Properly performed acupuncture seems to be a safe procedure. Basic-science research provides evidence that begins to offer plausible mechanisms for the presumed physiologic effects of acupuncture. Multiple research approaches have shown that acupuncture activates endogenous opioid mechanisms. Recent data, obtained by using functional magnetic resonance imaging, suggest that acupuncture has regionally specific, quantifiable effects on relevant brain structures. Acupuncture may stimulate gene expression of neuropeptides. The training and provision of acupuncture care in the United States are rapidly expanding.

So it was found effective at reducing the nausea associated with pregnancy

Again, I’m not even a huge acupuncture advocate. I just like debunking people who waltz into a long running scientific debate with zero sources and act like they’re experts

[smellsdead]

yeah homeopathy is bullshit, no honey ever cured my sore throat
dick in the mouth works every time

[doublesteveburger]

my girlfriend scheduled me for acupuncture and cupping + massage for my 30th birthday then couldn't pay for it so i paid for it cause i'm nice and i can assure you it's all fucking bullshit and it's fucking stupid and i hate this shit i just want to go back to bed and not wake up for a while

[mj23]

The key points however, is that “it didn’t work for me” or “it doesn’t always work” or “it only works sometimes” is not the same as “it’s total bullshit”

[L33Tg33k]

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Acupuncture is bullshit. You do you though. The placebo effect works wonders.

[close]

Not true.

[close]

Is true. https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/acupuncture-points-dont-exist/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/emotional-freedom-technique-acupuncture-for-the-mind/

Cupping doesn’t do anything either. They are placebos. But lucky for you, sense you believe in them, they might still have some minor effect.

[close]

Both of those sources are run by the same guy, Steven Novella, and neither is a peer reviewed scientific article. The “Science Based Medicine” site is just some blog he runs via the “New England Skeptics Society.” Not exactly a prestigious source, to say the least.

But if you want to just go grabbing articles off the web and posting them because they back up your preferred conclusion I will happily play along.

Here’s an actual scientific study that found acupuncture stimulates the release of endogenous opioid peptides, ie natural chemicals that reduce the amount of pain you feel.

Expand Quote

Ji-Sheng Han,
Acupuncture and endorphins,
Neuroscience Letters,
Volume 361, Issues 1–3,
2004,
Pages 258-261,
ISSN 0304-3940,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neulet.2003.12.019.
(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304394003014009)

Abstract: Acupuncture and electroacupuncture (EA) as complementary and alternative medicine have been accepted worldwide mainly for the treatment of acute and chronic pain. Studies on the mechanisms of action have revealed that endogenous opioid peptides in the central nervous system play an essential role in mediating the analgesic effect of EA. Further studies have shown that different kinds of neuropeptides are released by EA with different frequencies. For example, EA of 2 Hz accelerates the release of enkephalin, β-endorphin and endomorphin, while that of 100 Hz selectively increases the release of dynorphin. A combination of the two frequencies produces a simultaneous release of all four opioid peptides, resulting in a maximal therapeutic effect. This finding has been verified in clinical studies in patients with various kinds of chronic pain including low back pain and diabetic neuropathic pain.
Keywords: Acupuncture; Electroacupuncture; Opioid peptides; Pain; Analgesia

[close]

Does that mean acupuncture cures injuries? No. But it’s far from total bullshit or a placebo, as you alleged.

If you read my post above you’ll see I’m definitely not some kind of acupuncture evangelist. I basically said “It kinda works sometimes.” That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement, but I don’t think it’s intellectually honest to act like acupuncture does nothing at all.

Just so you know Dr. Steven Novella isn’t just some guy.

Steven Paul Novella is an American clinical neurologist and associate professor at Yale University School of Medicine. Novella is best known for his involvement in the skeptical movement as a host of The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe podcast and as the president of the New England Skeptical Society.

Also it’s been an unfortunate thing that a lot of Chinese studies are purposefully publishing bunk studies in the field TCM in order to legitimize it. I know you’re just gonna call me racist, but that’s straight up a thing going on.

I don’t really care to have this debate because it never goes anywhere and takes too much bandwidth in my life.

[Francis Xavier]

IDK I'm pretty skeptical on it all now.

[IUTSM]

Shit, damn, marijuana, grass, ganja, I mean weed, I mean dope, I mean what's now referred to as cannabis was proven, in countless studies, to have no medical value. The psychological, neurological, and physical benefits Ketamine, LSD, and Psilocybin are fringe pseudoscience too, right? Just a bunch of hippies pushing fraudulent research.

This is classic slap.

[L33Tg33k]

Shit, damn, marijuana, grass, ganja, I mean weed, I mean dope, I mean what's now referred to as cannabis was proven, in countless studies, to have no medical value. The psychological, neurological, and physical benefits Ketamine, LSD, and Psilocybin are fringe pseudoscience too, right? Just a bunch of hippies pushing fraudulent research.

This is classic slap.

Straw man argument. Nobody in the medical or scientific community said those did nothing. That was political. In fact ketamine and psilocybin are downright mainstream now. Fuck, why’d I get back into this?