Author Topic: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)  (Read 1930 times)

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JoeyButterfingers

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An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« on: March 15, 2023, 05:23:56 AM »
Morning everyone, so there's been a few videos I've seen of this set up that may interest you.

If you combine the Nikon FC-E9 lens (you'll need a 49-46mm step up ring and rail support system), with the Panasonic HC-X1000 body, zoomed in to 22 or 23, you've got yourself something identical to an HPX with an Xtreme lens for a fraction of the price, since Deathlens Fisheye Seller is trying to get 8 grand for Xtremes at the moment.

The only thing I've noticed is that theres slight vig shake, even with OIS turned off. Maybe I'm tripping, but check some of the example videos below and see what you think. A large portion of the new Etnies x Independent video was also filmed on this exact set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR6lTKAXL9A&ab_channel=Gvideos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWElxQHe4Pw&ab_channel=ThrasherMagazine

What do you guys think? A homie has this set up and I've played around with it a lot and its great, minus some light vig shake.
I've managed to grab a lens for around $400 which is far better than $8,000.

suckmadeck

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2023, 02:32:38 PM »
It's great it works on that 4K Panasonic, but if it is to compete with the Xtreme it'll need a 72mm to 46mm step down ring to work on the HPX170 e.t.c which concerns me about vignette From previous experiments you'll either end up with a fantastic 4x3 HD setup, or a horrid 16x9 image with more vignette than a peep hole. Also, whoever edited the video should have left the post-stabilisation off cus that fake vig is quite noticeable.

Madam, I'm Adam

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2023, 02:40:23 PM »
And here I was thinking this thread would be about sipping herbal tea while sitting on a grassy hill and watching the sun set.

JoeyButterfingers

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2023, 08:44:20 AM »
It's great it works on that 4K Panasonic, but if it is to compete with the Xtreme it'll need a 72mm to 46mm step down ring to work on the HPX170 e.t.c which concerns me about vignette From previous experiments you'll either end up with a fantastic 4x3 HD setup, or a horrid 16x9 image with more vignette than a peep hole. Also, whoever edited the video should have left the post-stabilisation off cus that fake vig is quite noticeable.

I noticed fake vig on that Etnies x Independent video, it's gross.
But yea, the Nikon lens with the Panasonic HC-X1000 body is almost, if not identical to the Xtreme in terms of width and distortion.

green

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2023, 05:11:52 AM »
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.

JoeyButterfingers

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2023, 05:43:51 AM »
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.

Thanks for this dude. I'll give it a go whenever I get round to setting mine up. I'm still running the Xtreme HPX174 and it does the job wonderfully. Did you find that even with OIS turned off that you still had a lot of vig shake, and if so, why do you think it continues to shake even with IOS turned off?

Also (sorry for all the questions), but how come it's so bad in low light? Is it a general issue with 4K quality cameras? or does it have a much smaller sensor?

Thanks!

Thejumpoff

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2023, 07:24:12 AM »
Expand Quote
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.
[close]

Thanks for this dude. I'll give it a go whenever I get round to setting mine up. I'm still running the Xtreme HPX174 and it does the job wonderfully. Did you find that even with OIS turned off that you still had a lot of vig shake, and if so, why do you think it continues to shake even with IOS turned off?

Also (sorry for all the questions), but how come it's so bad in low light? Is it a general issue with 4K quality cameras? or does it have a much smaller sensor?

Thanks!

Could always zoom in a tiny bit in post to have almost no actual vig and then add a vig overlay. Theres an older page that has a download for an Xtreme Vig Overlay. Obviously more work but could give you a pretty solid result.
https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=104528.0

green

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2023, 08:36:14 AM »
Expand Quote
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.
[close]

Thanks for this dude. I'll give it a go whenever I get round to setting mine up. I'm still running the Xtreme HPX174 and it does the job wonderfully. Did you find that even with OIS turned off that you still had a lot of vig shake, and if so, why do you think it continues to shake even with IOS turned off?

Also (sorry for all the questions), but how come it's so bad in low light? Is it a general issue with 4K quality cameras? or does it have a much smaller sensor?

Thanks!

Nice, if i still had an xtreme i would keep running that. The colors and sound of the HPX are unmatched imo.

The thing is, the HC-X1000 has a tiny 1/2.3" MOS sensor like an iphone 11, which meant Panasonic was able to pack a great 'Leica' zoom lens into a small package, but the noise at high gain/iso settings make the footage almost unusable. And the image doesn't stand up very well to youtube compression even at low gain. The colors are ok though, and in daylight it's easy to get a flat image that grades decently even though it's 8bit 4:2:0. I'd prefer at least 8 bit 4:2:2 colors like the HPX, ideally 10 bit but that's hard to come by in compact prosumer camcorders.

With OIS completely off (hybrid off + ois off), the vig doesn't shake at all if you hold the camera carefully enough – hard to do while pushing but still doable.

And it's not necessary to use a vig overlay with the fc-e9 – the actual vig looks great. Just zoom in a bit on the camera and crop in exactly how you want in your editing program of choice.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 08:43:16 AM by green »

CHONGO

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2023, 07:31:38 PM »
Wow that looks awesome. Makes me want to film HD

JoeyButterfingers

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2023, 08:54:31 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.
[close]

Thanks for this dude. I'll give it a go whenever I get round to setting mine up. I'm still running the Xtreme HPX174 and it does the job wonderfully. Did you find that even with OIS turned off that you still had a lot of vig shake, and if so, why do you think it continues to shake even with IOS turned off?

Also (sorry for all the questions), but how come it's so bad in low light? Is it a general issue with 4K quality cameras? or does it have a much smaller sensor?

Thanks!
[close]

Nice, if i still had an xtreme i would keep running that. The colors and sound of the HPX are unmatched imo.

The thing is, the HC-X1000 has a tiny 1/2.3" MOS sensor like an iphone 11, which meant Panasonic was able to pack a great 'Leica' zoom lens into a small package, but the noise at high gain/iso settings make the footage almost unusable. And the image doesn't stand up very well to youtube compression even at low gain. The colors are ok though, and in daylight it's easy to get a flat image that grades decently even though it's 8bit 4:2:0. I'd prefer at least 8 bit 4:2:2 colors like the HPX, ideally 10 bit but that's hard to come by in compact prosumer camcorders.

With OIS completely off (hybrid off + ois off), the vig doesn't shake at all if you hold the camera carefully enough – hard to do while pushing but still doable.

And it's not necessary to use a vig overlay with the fc-e9 – the actual vig looks great. Just zoom in a bit on the camera and crop in exactly how you want in your editing program of choice.

Thank you for this. I’m just looking into other alternatives aside from using my Xtreme just for future reference to save me a whole bunch of money!

LewFarrell

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2023, 10:30:10 AM »
Maybe the future is high resolution 360° cameras with depth sensors that creates footage which you are able to apply a sort of "texture map" that can replicate the exact distortions of popular lenses. They do something like this in the skaterXL modding community.

OwlGreen

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2023, 03:17:25 AM »
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.

What do you think is the best global shutter camcorder to pair with the FCE9? The JVC HM100 and 150 look good, but they use 1/4" CCDs. Is there something similar using 1/3" CCDs? That is to say, progressive scan, global shutter, and with a lens filter thread around 43-52mm in diameter?

green

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2023, 01:03:21 PM »
Expand Quote
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.
[close]

What do you think is the best global shutter camcorder to pair with the FCE9? The JVC HM100 and 150 look good, but they use 1/4" CCDs. Is there something similar using 1/3" CCDs? That is to say, progressive scan, global shutter, and with a lens filter thread around 43-52mm in diameter?

I don't think that camera exists unfortunately. Even with its tiny 3CCD sensors the HM150 looks great though. With the default sharpness settings turned to a minimum, the footage is pretty indistinguishable from the HPX (minus some rectangle/star shaped lens flares and slight chromatic aberration at longer zoom lengths). I've been meaning to try recording HDMI out to a Blackmagic Video Assist/Atomos Ninja V for the higher bitrate and 4:2:2 color depth, which should look nice. But maybe just give the Canon XF200 a try, it's CMOS but with a fast sensor readout (no rolling shutter at 720p60) plus 4:2:2 internal recording, and it should fit the FC-E9 nicely with a 58-46mm step down ring.

JoeyButterfingers

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2023, 04:37:48 AM »
I've actually been reading up on old forums about modding this lens by cutting the neck off and welding a step up/down ring of your choice to it.

Has anyone else seen or heard of this mod? Apparently it was used many moons ago to replicate an MK1.

Surely it'll help with any low light issues by not having that neck added to it?

doyle

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2023, 07:30:43 AM »
I've actually been reading up on old forums about modding this lens by cutting the neck off and welding a step up/down ring of your choice to it.

Has anyone else seen or heard of this mod? Apparently it was used many moons ago to replicate an MK1.

Surely it'll help with any low light issues by not having that neck added to it?

I did this a loooong time ago on a DVC30 and immediately regretted it. The main thing I disliked about the OG FC-E9 was the really bad chromatic aberration, and then after cutting off the neck the whole image was really soft, distortion seemed different/weird, and there were some nasty flares.

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2023, 01:10:36 AM »
I noticed fake vig on that Etnies x Independent video, it's gross.

That was me. Sadly, it was born of necessity rather than any sort of creative decision.

That video was the first time I was using that camera.

The overlay is to cover up the vig shake on some of the lines which you can see in the raw. The rail system helps tons, but you have to have it setup so well to stop shakes. I'm going to look into other ways I can support this properly...

There is also some crop on one of the lines, too because it wasn't quite filmed right...so the overlay kept it uniform which is why it was used there.

The setup is good. I'm into it but need to spend more time with it.

My takeaways from using it are:

- The fisheye feels good. Results feel close to the xtreme but personally, I still prefer the 8-15 distortion.
- The audio sucks. Will be using a mic from here on in.
- You have to be careful in low light. It doesn't handle shadows too well. I've not tried shooting at night, but I do think it needs an on cam light as early as the VX does


JoeyButterfingers

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2023, 09:39:13 AM »
Expand Quote
I noticed fake vig on that Etnies x Independent video, it's gross.
[close]

That was me. Sadly, it was born of necessity rather than any sort of creative decision.

That video was the first time I was using that camera.

The overlay is to cover up the vig shake on some of the lines which you can see in the raw. The rail system helps tons, but you have to have it setup so well to stop shakes. I'm going to look into other ways I can support this properly...

There is also some crop on one of the lines, too because it wasn't quite filmed right...so the overlay kept it uniform which is why it was used there.

The setup is good. I'm into it but need to spend more time with it.

My takeaways from using it are:

- The fisheye feels good. Results feel close to the xtreme but personally, I still prefer the 8-15 distortion.
- The audio sucks. Will be using a mic from here on in.
- You have to be careful in low light. It doesn't handle shadows too well. I've not tried shooting at night, but I do think it needs an on cam light as early as the VX does

What do you think the issue is with shaking vig? I have the lens and I have the HC-X1000 ready to go but I’m kinda put off at the idea of having OCD over shaking vig.

I’ve read a bunch that even with all steady shot off, it still shakes yet nowhere seems to mention why it still shapes.

KDP

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2023, 10:51:49 AM »
Oh, you 100% need steady shot off. Even the VX1000 would be unusable with the steadyshot on.

I think the issue is the long neck on the lens. It's an odd looking beast. The neck isn't removable, though, which would probably help tons.

The lens support system I have only has a Y shaped support under the neck. Pressing it up as best you can seems to limit shake - but I think it would be better to have some sort of O ring which straps around the neck tight and ties it into the rails solidly...

Not sure if that exists. Maybe it does already?

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2023, 06:49:59 PM »
I was running this setup for a while, it can look really good as long there's enough light and the camera has enough weight on it (baseplate/rails/etc) to counterbalance the fisheye up front. But the camera is terrible in low light, and the built-in mic isn't great either. I ended up selling it – I prefer the JVC HM150 paired with this fisheye for the 3CCD look.

here are some footage samples with the HC-X1000:

https://youtu.be/AiNZd_GvcME?t=130
2:10

https://youtu.be/Y_KaZQwCOyY?t=1474
24:34

Protip: turn off the 'hybrid optical image stabilizer' setting to minimize vig shake and any weird motions when filming long lens.
And the 1080p60 ALL-I recording setting is where the footage shines the most.


have you seen any or have link to any hm150 footy paired with this lens? would love to see as i've been considering buying a hm150

anntwuan

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2023, 07:05:37 PM »
Does anyone know how to turn off the exposure compensation (or maybe its a backlight) that tends to automatically adjust, even on full manual?

Jordan Wiens

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Re: An alternative to the xtreme (and it's absolutely amazing)
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2023, 07:09:37 AM »
Does anyone know how to turn off the exposure compensation (or maybe its a backlight) that tends to automatically adjust, even on full manual?
is there an auto gain control setting? could be that. just turn anything off that says auto
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