Happier now or in the Middle Ages?

[Jehoshaphat Augustus]

imagine showing and explaining Purell to Middle Age dudes without getting impaled

[Lenny the Fatface]

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^Tons of Americans die right now because they don't maintain their hygiene

[close]

Not even close. The black plague killed about 50 million people in the 1300’s, and it’s spread is mostly attributed to how filthy people and living conditions were in Europe at that time. Average European bathed around 3 times a year.

There’s some filthy fuckers in modern United States for sure, but the extra space makes it nowhere near as gnarly.

[close]

The plague went from Portugal to China and from up in Sweden down past Sudan in Africa. Billions of completely different people didn't all just decide to not wash anymore. Every other week they're digging up old bathhouses and shit.
It's just overpopulation always causes problems. Modern Paris, Japan and Korea would be considered as advanced as possible but they're all having massive bedbug outbreaks and shit. We were gross then we're still gross now.

There wasn’t a billion people on Earth until the early 1800’s, but I get what you’re trying to say. Here’s two things you have to consider though:

One, There wasn’t a consensus that routine bathing was healthy until the 1880’s. Indigenous Americans for example practiced meticulous bathing a dental hygiene centuries before the rest of the world. Europeans in contrast seldom bathed, but the higher classes shaved occasionally and changed clothes regularly. As we all know poverty was pretty gnar during the Middle Ages so most Europeans were filthy. And yes Europens did bathe less than they did compared to previous eras which leads to point two.

The Middle Ages of Europe was a comically regressive period in world history, where many of the Greek and Roman innovations were lost. Somehow the recipe to make cement went missing during one of the many wars, which resulted in rudimentary architecture and more importantly terrible plumbing. Like you mention, the overpopulated city states played a part, but the big problem was the lack of infrastructure such as quality irrigation (because everything was made out of stone and wood). Therefore these places became very dense, feces ridden, rat infested cesspools. While the black plague did not start in Europe, the body count was higher because all the stuff mentioned above.

TLDR: All the Feudal Europeans had doo-doo fingers.

[RoaryMcTwang]

I prefer my bullshit job to not actually involve bull shit.

[SneakySecrets]

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^Tons of Americans die right now because they don't maintain their hygiene


The boredom would be one of the hardest things. When did people start getting depressed? It's bad enough in modern times but you'd have to assume just knowing your life is wake up, walk to field, work all die, walk home, eat some water soup, pray and repeat knowing nothing good or interesting will ever happen to you would have to be pretty hard to deal with.

[close]

I've felt this way travelling in poor agrarian places, looking out a train window at lives that seem hopeless cause they have no options/mobility.  But I think modern mental health issues are very tied to alienation. In preindustrial society it seems like communities were very tight and people must have had pretty rich social lives. Working alongside your friends and neighbours, being involved with your family throughout your life, sharing meals and gossiping in the market, everyone going to the same occasional dance or fair... in some ways less depressing than chatting with people ill never meet across little screens.

I agree, I see those as massive upsides.  Like massive massive.  But I understand the point about others have made about scientific/health advances.  I’d have died in 5th grade from health-related issues if I lived in the Middle Ages.

A more interesting question might be happier now or pre-civilization (before domestication/ agriculture/ religion, hierarchy/ mass society etc.) ?

The Middle Ages were probably among the darkest times for many. but there were certainly come blissed out nomadic Gatherer-Hunters in Northern Tanzania (and many many  other places where humans were not stupid enough to settle permanently) jamming with the universe in the most wonderful way.

As for post-civilization (ie the last 10,000 years- a mere blip in our existence), some people now say those of us privileged enough to live a certain lifestyle in certain countries lived 'peak civilization,' which was arguably from when the Berlin Wall went down until recently....

and we are now on the downward curve...

so hold that thought....

Yes, pre-agrarian would also be a great thought experiment.  I honestly don’t think our imaginations are good enough to draw an accurate picture of what life was/is like for those people.  Their entire worldview has got to be so fundamentally different than ours.  From the scattered, casual research I’ve done on those kinds of societies, they appear to be outrageously happy and carefree compared to your typical citizen of an advanced western society. 

Like do you think depression and suicide are/were a big problem facing these people?  Going to go out on a limb and say no.  Maybe I’m wrong on that and someone can correct me. 

It’s funny that none of us will ever be able to know what that lifestyle is like since our brains have been so irreparably cattle-branded by the modern world.


Also, I added a poll to this just for funsies. Should have included it from the start.

[botefdunn]

Interesting, related article. The comments section on it is pretty good, but not as funny as ours.


https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/05/how-neolithic-farming-sowed-the-seeds-of-modern-inequality-10000-years-ago

[Frank and Fred]

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^Tons of Americans die right now because they don't maintain their hygiene


The boredom would be one of the hardest things. When did people start getting depressed? It's bad enough in modern times but you'd have to assume just knowing your life is wake up, walk to field, work all die, walk home, eat some water soup, pray and repeat knowing nothing good or interesting will ever happen to you would have to be pretty hard to deal with.

[close]

I've felt this way travelling in poor agrarian places, looking out a train window at lives that seem hopeless cause they have no options/mobility.  But I think modern mental health issues are very tied to alienation. In preindustrial society it seems like communities were very tight and people must have had pretty rich social lives. Working alongside your friends and neighbours, being involved with your family throughout your life, sharing meals and gossiping in the market, everyone going to the same occasional dance or fair... in some ways less depressing than chatting with people ill never meet across little screens.

[close]

I agree, I see those as massive upsides.  Like massive massive.  But I understand the point about others have made about scientific/health advances.  I’d have died in 5th grade from health-related issues if I lived in the Middle Ages.

Expand Quote

A more interesting question might be happier now or pre-civilization (before domestication/ agriculture/ religion, hierarchy/ mass society etc.) ?

The Middle Ages were probably among the darkest times for many. but there were certainly come blissed out nomadic Gatherer-Hunters in Northern Tanzania (and many many  other places where humans were not stupid enough to settle permanently) jamming with the universe in the most wonderful way.

As for post-civilization (ie the last 10,000 years- a mere blip in our existence), some people now say those of us privileged enough to live a certain lifestyle in certain countries lived 'peak civilization,' which was arguably from when the Berlin Wall went down until recently....

and we are now on the downward curve...

so hold that thought....

[close]

Yes, pre-agrarian would also be a great thought experiment.  I honestly don’t think our imaginations are good enough to draw an accurate picture of what life was/is like for those people.  Their entire worldview has got to be so fundamentally different than ours.  From the scattered, casual research I’ve done on those kinds of societies, they appear to be outrageously happy and carefree compared to your typical citizen of an advanced western society. 

Like do you think depression and suicide are/were a big problem facing these people?  Going to go out on a limb and say no.  Maybe I’m wrong on that and someone can correct me. 

It’s funny that none of us will ever be able to know what that lifestyle is like since our brains have been so irreparably cattle-branded by the modern world.


Also, I added a poll to this just for funsies. Should have included it from the start.

Lots of literature out there on this. Many anthropologists, writers, scientists and eco-activist types of taken it upon themselves to try to get into the pre-agiriculture mindset, pre-symbollic thought even. Here are a few,

[Frank and Fred]

Interesting, related article. The comments section on it is pretty good, but not as funny as ours.


https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/05/how-neolithic-farming-sowed-the-seeds-of-modern-inequality-10000-years-ago

Thanks for posting that piece HIs book is also worth checking out (posted above).

[sometimeperhaps]

I often think about how a single Dorito has more nacho cheese flavour in one bite than someone back then would have in a lifetime.

[brycickle]

[Mean salto]

I often think about how a single Dorito has more nacho cheese flavour in one bite than someone back then would have in a lifetime.

But we will never be able to truely appreciate a boiled turnip

[SneakySecrets]

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^Tons of Americans die right now because they don't maintain their hygiene


The boredom would be one of the hardest things. When did people start getting depressed? It's bad enough in modern times but you'd have to assume just knowing your life is wake up, walk to field, work all die, walk home, eat some water soup, pray and repeat knowing nothing good or interesting will ever happen to you would have to be pretty hard to deal with.

[close]

I've felt this way travelling in poor agrarian places, looking out a train window at lives that seem hopeless cause they have no options/mobility.  But I think modern mental health issues are very tied to alienation. In preindustrial society it seems like communities were very tight and people must have had pretty rich social lives. Working alongside your friends and neighbours, being involved with your family throughout your life, sharing meals and gossiping in the market, everyone going to the same occasional dance or fair... in some ways less depressing than chatting with people ill never meet across little screens.

[close]

I agree, I see those as massive upsides.  Like massive massive.  But I understand the point about others have made about scientific/health advances.  I’d have died in 5th grade from health-related issues if I lived in the Middle Ages.

Expand Quote

A more interesting question might be happier now or pre-civilization (before domestication/ agriculture/ religion, hierarchy/ mass society etc.) ?

The Middle Ages were probably among the darkest times for many. but there were certainly come blissed out nomadic Gatherer-Hunters in Northern Tanzania (and many many  other places where humans were not stupid enough to settle permanently) jamming with the universe in the most wonderful way.

As for post-civilization (ie the last 10,000 years- a mere blip in our existence), some people now say those of us privileged enough to live a certain lifestyle in certain countries lived 'peak civilization,' which was arguably from when the Berlin Wall went down until recently....

and we are now on the downward curve...

so hold that thought....

[close]

Yes, pre-agrarian would also be a great thought experiment.  I honestly don’t think our imaginations are good enough to draw an accurate picture of what life was/is like for those people.  Their entire worldview has got to be so fundamentally different than ours.  From the scattered, casual research I’ve done on those kinds of societies, they appear to be outrageously happy and carefree compared to your typical citizen of an advanced western society. 

Like do you think depression and suicide are/were a big problem facing these people?  Going to go out on a limb and say no.  Maybe I’m wrong on that and someone can correct me. 

It’s funny that none of us will ever be able to know what that lifestyle is like since our brains have been so irreparably cattle-branded by the modern world.


Also, I added a poll to this just for funsies. Should have included it from the start.

[close]

Lots of literature out there on this. Many anthropologists, writers, scientists and eco-activist types of taken it upon themselves to try to get into the pre-agiriculture mindset, pre-symbollic thought even. Here are a few,

Damn dog, thank you.  Two of those caught my eye.

I can’t even begin to imagine living without symbols, haha.  Does that include language?  (Without having read any of the books), I’d easily group language in with symbols. 

I actually tried to run down a list of different things to suggest as non-symbolic (painting, music, etc), then realized you can find a gazillion symbols in them at a cursory glance. 

I guess one way to look at it is that everything we know has been polluted by symbols except for raw nature itself. 🤯

[Frank and Fred]

For sure. The argument is that symbols, numbers, language, even cave art- were the beginning of  the end of our direct communication with nature, each other and life itself. Some argue that language did not actually enhance communication but inhibited a form of primeval communication we once had with each other and the universe.... I have no idea but i do like reading  about this stuff...

[Uncle Flea]

I wouldn't even have been born. Ma would be dead too probably.

The past sucked. If I could live forever I would just to see what happens next

[matty_c]

Now for sure, people lived in filth back in the day

Imagine going down on some medieval peasant chick

Fuck that

[Uncle Flea]

Now for sure, people lived in filth back in the day

Imagine going down on some medieval peasant chick

Fuck that

Full agree. Also it probably was against the law. Punishment by church/state via public damn hammering and it would get added to the history books to allow the future christian world to laugh at your demise at the hands of their perfect system of worship .

If I was middle ages I probably would have died in the belly of some shitty ship chained to an oar.

A brain like mine would have laid waste to everything and everyone around me if my life was watching grass grow and swinging axes and hos.

I was born with resistance in my heart and brains in my head. I would have spread across all the lands like Genghis Khan.

Or perhaps I'd just live in a tree and shaman up until I was killed by Christmans

No skateboard too. What the fuckin fuck would I do.

I'd probably just starve to death. I am rn this second

[Switch360flip]

Chicken wings didn’t exist in the Middle Ages. Women in leggings also didn’t exist. Or skateboarding, bench press, Spotify, bikinis, modern backpacking gear, basketball, chainsaws. It’s no contest really.

[Uncle Flea]

No fuckin weed too.

Imagine life with out bong hits.
We'd probably all be in some army thinking about who's pro for sword fighting and who of the Red Guard or in the dungeon. Which beer joint has the best flat ground for disputes and the best whores who can also stitch up a face

[pugmaster]

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^Tons of Americans die right now because they don't maintain their hygiene


The boredom would be one of the hardest things. When did people start getting depressed? It's bad enough in modern times but you'd have to assume just knowing your life is wake up, walk to field, work all die, walk home, eat some water soup, pray and repeat knowing nothing good or interesting will ever happen to you would have to be pretty hard to deal with.

[close]

I've felt this way travelling in poor agrarian places, looking out a train window at lives that seem hopeless cause they have no options/mobility.  But I think modern mental health issues are very tied to alienation. In preindustrial society it seems like communities were very tight and people must have had pretty rich social lives. Working alongside your friends and neighbours, being involved with your family throughout your life, sharing meals and gossiping in the market, everyone going to the same occasional dance or fair... in some ways less depressing than chatting with people ill never meet across little screens.

[close]

I agree, I see those as massive upsides.  Like massive massive.  But I understand the point about others have made about scientific/health advances.  I’d have died in 5th grade from health-related issues if I lived in the Middle Ages.

Expand Quote

A more interesting question might be happier now or pre-civilization (before domestication/ agriculture/ religion, hierarchy/ mass society etc.) ?

The Middle Ages were probably among the darkest times for many. but there were certainly come blissed out nomadic Gatherer-Hunters in Northern Tanzania (and many many  other places where humans were not stupid enough to settle permanently) jamming with the universe in the most wonderful way.

As for post-civilization (ie the last 10,000 years- a mere blip in our existence), some people now say those of us privileged enough to live a certain lifestyle in certain countries lived 'peak civilization,' which was arguably from when the Berlin Wall went down until recently....

and we are now on the downward curve...

so hold that thought....

[close]

Yes, pre-agrarian would also be a great thought experiment.  I honestly don’t think our imaginations are good enough to draw an accurate picture of what life was/is like for those people.  Their entire worldview has got to be so fundamentally different than ours.  From the scattered, casual research I’ve done on those kinds of societies, they appear to be outrageously happy and carefree compared to your typical citizen of an advanced western society. 

Like do you think depression and suicide are/were a big problem facing these people?  Going to go out on a limb and say no.  Maybe I’m wrong on that and someone can correct me. 

It’s funny that none of us will ever be able to know what that lifestyle is like since our brains have been so irreparably cattle-branded by the modern world.


Also, I added a poll to this just for funsies. Should have included it from the start.

[close]

Lots of literature out there on this. Many anthropologists, writers, scientists and eco-activist types of taken it upon themselves to try to get into the pre-agiriculture mindset, pre-symbollic thought even. Here are a few,

[close]

Damn dog, thank you.  Two of those caught my eye.

I can’t even begin to imagine living without symbols, haha.  Does that include language?  (Without having read any of the books), I’d easily group language in with symbols. 

I actually tried to run down a list of different things to suggest as non-symbolic (painting, music, etc), then realized you can find a gazillion symbols in them at a cursory glance. 

I guess one way to look at it is that everything we know has been polluted by symbols except for raw nature itself. 🤯

Yes, language is symbolic.

Definition of Language

Language is a complex and dynamic system of conventional symbols that is used in various modes for thought and communication.

Contemporary views of human language hold that:

    language evolves within specific historical, social, and cultural contexts;

    language, as rule-governed behavior, is described by at least five parameters—phonologic, morphologic, syntactic, semantic, and pragmatic;

    language learning and use are determined by the interaction of biological, cognitive, psychosocial, and environmental factors;

    effective use of language for communication requires a broad understanding of human interaction including such associated factors as nonverbal cues, motivation, and sociocultural roles.



Source: https://www.asha.org/policy/rp1982-00125/

[RoaryMcTwang]

Chicken wings didn’t exist in the Middle Ages. Women in leggings also didn’t exist. Or skateboarding, bench press, Spotify, bikinis, modern backpacking gear, basketball, chainsaws. It’s no contest really.

On the plus side though: