Author Topic: Is anarchy still cool?  (Read 722 times)

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cringe lord

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Is anarchy still cool?
« on: March 23, 2024, 07:17:34 AM »
When I was coming up anarchy was the only political position in skateboarding. Does it still hold any weight? Does it become uncool after a certain age? Are you for or against anarchy? Why?

SneakySecrets

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2024, 09:05:52 AM »
I personally like most anarchists.  I just don’t think it works in reality.  I think sovereignty is retained by whoever has the most force.  If human nature matched up to theory 1:1, then maybe we could make a go of it.  I get the libertarian argument and have thought about it a lot, but it always seems to reset to the most powerful becoming the de facto government if you play it out over enough time.

Can’t tell you how cool or uncool it is but I’m glad they’re out there.
When nothing in society deserves respect, we should fashion for ourselves in solitude new silent loyalties.

somedudefromnj

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2024, 10:50:42 AM »
like sneaky said, its ideal but would never work

one can dream though

Lol. Eldee is definitely a human. He’s like a raider on horse back who’s kinda scared to do battle. Somehow he closes his eyes and swings his sword wildly and wakes up in a pile of dead orcs.


botefdunn

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2024, 11:07:20 AM »
It works just fine.

Frank and Fred

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2024, 11:07:51 AM »
cool or not, it might be our only hope.

humans were anarchists for most of our existence. its only the last 1% of our time that we have arranged ourself in this ridiculous manner.

of course, how we get back there at this point is unimaginable....

but,

as some post-left french anarchists once said, "be reasonable, demand the impossible."

Mean salto

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2024, 11:14:44 AM »

Uncle Flea

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2024, 11:17:18 AM »
It was almost never in the industry.

I find it to be the most attractive name for thinking for yourself and doing right by others.

Resistance to insanity should be automatic and should just be called WICKED FRICKIN SMART KID! Cuz everyone always calls me that.

Or "I'm all set." Those reacts aren't from comfort. It's fear.


I don't organize in that manner anymore.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2024, 11:24:06 AM by Uncle Flea »
Plz stop killing each other
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Trilogy

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2024, 11:51:07 AM »
Real definition of Anarchy - Everyone in society has good sense and morals so we don't need authority

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority

Either way, once you grow up you see both ways of Anarchy are an utopia.

LeDave

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2024, 12:53:13 PM »
The title brings back memories, anyone else used to play Anarchy Online? Best mmorpg ever!

botefdunn

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2024, 01:51:59 PM »
Either way, once you grow up you see both ways of Anarchy are an utopia.

Nothing wrong with that.
Life is a series of compromises btw how you'd like things to be ideally and what you see as your own needs in a given situation. The day you stop taking the former into account, you're not more realistic, just morally and intellectually lazy/bankrupt.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2024, 03:12:16 PM by botefdunn »

cringe lord

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2024, 02:25:57 PM »
I personally think the system we have now is good, I like social security, the only thing I have a problem with is drugs being illegal, that's really the only thing I would change.

I just remember everything being about anarchy until about 09 then libertarian shit started to get popular then by 2016 everything is left or right

I kinda miss the anarchy attitude

Frank and Fred

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2024, 02:30:02 PM »
Real definition of Anarchy - Everyone in society has good sense and morals so we don't need authority

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority

Either way, once you grow up you see both ways of Anarchy are an utopia.

It wasn't that  simple.

Read "The Story of Crass" or "My Revolting Life" by Penny Rimbaud and you'll see punks really helped revitalize anarchist ideas in the 80s.


botefdunn

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2024, 03:15:39 PM »
Expand Quote
Real definition of Anarchy - Everyone in society has good sense and morals so we don't need authority

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority

Either way, once you grow up you see both ways of Anarchy are an utopia.
[close]

It wasn't that  simple.

Read "The Story of Crass" or "My Revolting Life" by Penny Rimbaud and you'll see punks really helped revitalize anarchist ideas in the 80s.

agreed.
It comes down to an emphasis on personal responsability and accountability by most definitions.

SneakySecrets

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2024, 03:35:20 PM »
Real definition of Anarchy - Everyone in society has good sense and morals so we don't need authority

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority

Either way, once you grow up you see both ways of Anarchy are an utopia.

So like if people were to grow up without good sense or morals, a self-governing society couldn’t exist?
When nothing in society deserves respect, we should fashion for ourselves in solitude new silent loyalties.

Trilogy

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2024, 03:37:27 PM »
Expand Quote
Real definition of Anarchy - Everyone in society has good sense and morals so we don't need authority

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority

Either way, once you grow up you see both ways of Anarchy are an utopia.
[close]

So like if people were to grow up without good sense or morals, a self-governing society couldn’t exist?

Do you really believe in a perfect world??

TheLurper

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2024, 05:34:19 PM »

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority


I think this is the definition that attracted (some) skaters when we were younger. It is silly, but it is a convenient outlet for teenagers (and dumb ass adults) who want to aimlessly rebel against society.



In terms of actual anarchy, Chomsky initially introduced me to it. I think he was an anarcho-syndicalist. Kroptkin's painting of what an anarcho-communism community could look like was brilliant and his examples of mutual aid across the animal kingdom/human history made it seem plausible. Bakunin's anarchist critiques of capitalism were great. And, I always thought it was cool that Orwell fight w/the anarchists against Franco's fascism in the Spanish Civil War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

However, libertarianism and anarchism are two sides of the same coin. They suffer from the same Achilles heel, they both greatly under estimate power. Even though anarchism is a relentless critique of power and hierarchies, it has no strong defense against those who desire power or wish to wield power. Libertarianism on the other hand goes out of its way to pretend power doesn't exist and has no defense against the abuses of the powerful outside the unbelievably flawed idea of the invisible hand of the free market. The "invisible hand" does not work as we see major companies knowingly killing their consumers, but the customers continue to buy their shit: Ford w/the Pinto, the GM w/the ignition problem, Sarah Lee w/their listeria outbreak, and so on. Murder of the customers matter even less when it is a longer term thing rather than immediate cause and effect.  BP, Chevron, Phillip Morris, and others spend insane sums of money on propaganda and paying useful idiots to claim their dangerous products are great or not harmful. Finally, if the products don't kill the consumer, but those around the consumer, consumers will refuse to acknowledge the harm done. Think of any modern day pick up truck with their tiny ass beds that are nearly useless. These status symbol commuter vehicles kill far more than regular cars, but try telling a truck owner they are threatening the safety of others. I'm yet to find one that will even admit the basic physics behind more mass = greater impact, greater impact = more dead.

Anarchism would be great, but how do we protect the society from those who wish to do harm to others? How do we operate a military without a hierarchy? And so on.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2024, 05:48:08 PM by TheLurper »

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Sila

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2024, 05:02:03 AM »
They're not explicitly anarchist but there's still self governing communities out there like Baduy in Indonesia.

SneakySecrets

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2024, 02:25:53 PM »
Something from Thucydides… When one big badass Greek state was taking over the other…  Timeless and terrifying words:

“Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do."
When nothing in society deserves respect, we should fashion for ourselves in solitude new silent loyalties.

Shtonk

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2024, 11:36:20 PM »
Hate to be the contrarian but I disagree with almost everything that's being said in this thread. Anarchism was never popular in skateboarding. Anarchism doesn't understimate power. Anarchism isn't utopian.

The fact of the matter is that in the examples where people had a taste of syndicalism, they had to be either outright killed off or undermined with insane amounts of resources and money. It actually works surprisingly well and rarely self-combusts. The fact that it can't withstand the pressure of an entire global system turning against it full force whenever the tiniest bit of it flourishes, that's not really an argument against it.

cucktard

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2024, 07:37:09 AM »
I’m not sure anarchy as skaters use it (‘fuck the cops!’, ‘Do what you want!’, ‘No rules!’) is or ever was political position. More like an attitude that is popular with teenagers.

I can see some examples where Anarchism as a theory and practice has a bit of an influence, not not a huge one.
Like making DIYs. People getting together, reimagining public spaces and making something rad and free to use without much of a hierarchy, and usually without permission from the authorities.

As for the practicality of Anarchism as a real force… many people have pointed out that we spend much of out free time in non-hierarchical groups, like with friends. And we manage to get things done without official leaders, or a minimizing of the roles.

People have experimented with expanding that reality into other spheres of life, but it usually brings us into direct conflict with capital, bosses, and other authorities, who have more resources to squash such competition.

but i believe its not just possible, it needs to exist if the human species are going to have any kind of large-scale society worth living in in the future.

I’m trying to be every mom’s favorite skater’-&&

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botefdunn

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2024, 01:21:43 PM »
I’m not sure anarchy as skaters use it (‘fuck the cops!’, ‘Do what you want!’, ‘No rules!’) is or ever was political position. More like an attitude that is popular with teenagers.

I can see some examples where Anarchism as a theory and practice has a bit of an influence, not not a huge one.
Like making DIYs. People getting together, reimagining public spaces and making something rad and free to use without much of a hierarchy, and usually without permission from the authorities.

As for the practicality of Anarchism as a real force… many people have pointed out that we spend much of out free time in non-hierarchical groups, like with friends. And we manage to get things done without official leaders, or a minimizing of the roles.

People have experimented with expanding that reality into other spheres of life, but it usually brings us into direct conflict with capital, bosses, and other authorities, who have more resources to squash such competition.

but i believe its not just possible, it needs to exist if the human species are going to have any kind of large-scale society worth living in in the future.

I think this is very well said.

The only part I take exception to is the first paragraph, I feel like it's an outsider perspective that skaters sometimes adopt unconsciously because its so prevalent in popular culture, the "skater as rebel" stereotype .

Ask yourselves: did you or anyone you know start skating as a way of rebelling? or was it instead, because you enjoyed it and thought it was cool and fun? 
My experience was the latter, and I don't think you could get anywhere with skating unless you really loved doing it, it's so demanding.

I believe that the social conflict that arises from skateboarding mostly highlights the rigidity of our social structures, rather than any particular desire on the part of individual skaters to battle them.
Even in the case of the classic skater vs. security guard, the conflict generally arises because the skater is so comitted to the act of skateboarding that they won't allow law or threat of physical aggression to interrupt them. People who think the skater in this situation is trying to "stick it to the man" simply lack a basic appreciation of how comitted to skateboarding the skater is.
My point is not that the skater in this conflict is "right",  but rather to point out that their position isn't reactive. To interpret the skater's activity through the lens of social norms, to the exclusion of the individual's own agency, is reductive. It's an imposition of the social on the individual.
So yes, the individual position is an anarchic one, but it is so by virtue of being active rather than reactive.

To follow a playful and creative impulse that makes you feel good and creates community may be anarchic, but it isn't inherently an act of rebellion.

Uncle Flea

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2024, 01:36:55 PM »
Hate to be the contrarian but I disagree with almost everything that's being said in this thread. Anarchism was never popular in skateboarding. Anarchism doesn't understimate power. Anarchism isn't utopian.

The fact of the matter is that in the examples where people had a taste of syndicalism, they had to be either outright killed off or undermined with insane amounts of resources and money. It actually works surprisingly well and rarely self-combusts. The fact that it can't withstand the pressure of an entire global system turning against it full force whenever the tiniest bit of it flourishes, that's not really an argument against it.

Fuckin truth.

Have a gnar
Plz stop killing each other
(A)pl(E)




Uncle Flea

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2024, 01:46:12 PM »
The systems of control will never allow utopia. That why you must subvert. If I was a normal mofo I'd already have office today.

My lust for a world of peace united as one tribe and living in total and absolute freedom is only trumped by the hate of the state and it's mechanisms of War.

Imagine me working with public services like with rotation of course.
No one would be sick. We'd all be living to 110 in the greenest environment you've ever seen. Everyone eats together always.

It's rewarded.

And then you rotate so no one is left with too much power. The plan stays the same tho
Plz stop killing each other
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Plan9Customs

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2024, 06:16:48 PM »
Unless you’ve killed an Archduke or you’re in the Black Hand are you even an Anarchist?

RoaryMcTwang

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2024, 11:32:08 PM »
It worked in the UK for that one record, then fell apart. That album was definitely cool though.

Reese Bruno

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2024, 02:43:29 PM »
Expand Quote

Punk definition of Anarchy - I can do everything I want so fuck authority

[close]

I think this is the definition that attracted (some) skaters when we were younger. It is silly, but it is a convenient outlet for teenagers (and dumb ass adults) who want to aimlessly rebel against society.



In terms of actual anarchy, Chomsky initially introduced me to it. I think he was an anarcho-syndicalist. Kroptkin's painting of what an anarcho-communism community could look like was brilliant and his examples of mutual aid across the animal kingdom/human history made it seem plausible. Bakunin's anarchist critiques of capitalism were great. And, I always thought it was cool that Orwell fight w/the anarchists against Franco's fascism in the Spanish Civil War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

However, libertarianism and anarchism are two sides of the same coin. They suffer from the same Achilles heel, they both greatly under estimate power. Even though anarchism is a relentless critique of power and hierarchies, it has no strong defense against those who desire power or wish to wield power. Libertarianism on the other hand goes out of its way to pretend power doesn't exist and has no defense against the abuses of the powerful outside the unbelievably flawed idea of the invisible hand of the free market. The "invisible hand" does not work as we see major companies knowingly killing their consumers, but the customers continue to buy their shit: Ford w/the Pinto, the GM w/the ignition problem, Sarah Lee w/their listeria outbreak, and so on. Murder of the customers matter even less when it is a longer term thing rather than immediate cause and effect.  BP, Chevron, Phillip Morris, and others spend insane sums of money on propaganda and paying useful idiots to claim their dangerous products are great or not harmful. Finally, if the products don't kill the consumer, but those around the consumer, consumers will refuse to acknowledge the harm done. Think of any modern day pick up truck with their tiny ass beds that are nearly useless. These status symbol commuter vehicles kill far more than regular cars, but try telling a truck owner they are threatening the safety of others. I'm yet to find one that will even admit the basic physics behind more mass = greater impact, greater impact = more dead.

Anarchism would be great, but how do we protect the society from those who wish to do harm to others? How do we operate a military without a hierarchy? And so on.

Honestly. Id settle for a nonutopia with no oversized trucks for sure

SneakySecrets

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2024, 04:23:58 PM »
It’s like living in a science fiction novel… “will the AI kill us before the grid dies?”

I guess our great hope is that they mismanage electricity production.  Then we can slowly regroup in small, quiet parochial societies with faint whispers of a distant past where a thing called tik tok and Beyoncé ruled over us.
When nothing in society deserves respect, we should fashion for ourselves in solitude new silent loyalties.

Kumiko

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2024, 07:53:53 PM »
Anarchy is cool.

Maybe some of it is just teenage shit, but I'm fine holding on to those things as an adult.

I have no hope or faith in an anarchic future. But I still want it. And I'll try to build that future even if it is a hopeless idea. Even if my attempts fail or are irrelevant.

There's a lot of wretched shit going on. But we don't have to be entirely complicit in it. We can make attempts at subversion. We don't have to just accept all that happens to us. I think about this clip a lot:

https://youtu.be/CWgw_jmRDpk?si=wtUZ5wJfR9OZc-4Q&t=110

I guess I'd differentiate between anarchy and anarchism.

Anarchism is some dream to work toward. Anarchy is something we can use/live/experience today. Putting every hierarchy into question can be empowering in one's life. I'm a total pushover of a person, but anarchic concepts have freed me of many mental restraints.

IDK.

I like this essay:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/sara-bard-field-my-debt-to-anarchism

I also didn't really experience or perceive much of it in skating growing up. Most of the kids I knew that skated were primarily interested in the idea of getting sponsored. Not acting out in defiance of architecture or the concept of property. I was also easily taken in by skate companies' lifestyle branding. Reflecting how skating can be representative of one's political beliefs only came after an interest in politics. Not the other way around.
i love skateboarding all the time, but sometimes i wish i was one of those douchebags who hangs out with hot girls and parties every week

Frank and Fred

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2024, 09:19:44 PM »
In respond to @Shtonk  I don't want to state the obvious regarding Anarchy in skateboarding but no one else has so far. 

Burnside was essentially an anarchic project.

No permission, Direct Action, not waiting for sanction, from each according to their ability, Mutual Aid, for the better of the community. A small few had a vision that snowballed and inspired the community to jump in to support where, when and how they were able. And it sparked a DIY revolution that has made skatepark building the better for us all and more under the direct control of actual skateboarders.

I'm sure it wasn't perfect. Even though I have talked to some of the OGs I am not sure how much consensus based decision making their was and I am sure there was some form of hierarchy based on skills and time served... but you get where I am going with this.

Take control of your own life. Solve your own problems, for the better of the whole.

botefdunn

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Re: Is anarchy still cool?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2024, 09:31:59 PM »
In respond to @Shtonk  I don't want to state the obvious regarding Anarchy in skateboarding but no one else has so far. 

Burnside was essentially an anarchic project.

No permission, Direct Action, not waiting for sanction, from each according to their ability, Mutual Aid, for the better of the community. A small few had a vision that snowballed and inspired the community to jump in to support where, when and how they were able. And it sparked a DIY revolution that has made skatepark building the better for us all and more under the direct control of actual skateboarders.

I'm sure it wasn't perfect. Even though I have talked to some of the OGs I am not sure how much consensus based decision making their was and I am sure there was some form of hierarchy based on skills and time served... but you get where I am going with this.

Take control of your own life. Solve your own problems, for the better of the whole.

great example.

and I would add: did the fact that burnside got built and inspired other diy projects mean that all problems regarding skateparks and public spaces got solved?
No.
Does that fact detract from the Burnside project or mean that it "doesn't work"? also no.