Particularly tricky issue with kickflips rotating backside - ideas requested

[ArgonautJon]

OK, this is going to be a difficult topic that's probably going to annoy you, but that's OK. It's going to seem like I'm rejecting everyone's advice and that common wisdom is being frustratingly ignored. Gonna get me a lot of shit, I'm prepared for it. It's going to be frustrating as hell, but that's OK, just try to bear with me. I need some ideas, so I thought I'd post this as a bit of a brainstorming session.

I've been trying to learn to kickflip for a little over two years now. I'm 34, and learning as an adult has been a hell of a battle. As of October (about 6 months ago) I've started getting my first makes, which is awesome, but they're far and few between. About one a month or so I'd estimate on average. It took me a long time to start committing to them, but once I did I ran into a bigger issue - one that I've battled for about a year. The dang thing turns on me and when my back foot comes down, it's only partially on the board. Usually "mostly not on the board". Toe touches, with my weight not fully on the board at all.

The board seems to want to do two things - the first is it has a tendency to rotate backside, sending the tail backwards towards my heel almost like a quarter of a backside pop shuvit. The second is that even when the board doesn't spin backside like a shuv, it tends to sort of do a barrel roll backwards, heelways. Towards my heels and under my ass. When it does this, when I come down, my feet might even be mostly on the board, but I'm leaning over my toes so much that there's no chance of rolling away.

Anyway, that's the gist, see info below for some footage and a FAQ on common ideas. I don't want to sound dismissive but I've received a lot of advice over the past two years and already have some idea of how implementing some frequent ideas normally goes.

The footage

Here's a random sampling of misses. The first is the closest - if I could land with my weight fully on the board and slip out like that every time, I'd consider that a huge win. That's what I'm going for. The rest are the typical backside turn.

https://streamable.com/uuibwp

Here's all of what I'd consider to be my makes so far. Just for reference. Plus I like seeing them, I'm super proud of them.

https://streamable.com/89rycz


FAQ/Common Suggestions

You don't look comfy on the board. You shouldn't be learning kickflips.

Yeah I know I look stupid as hell, but I look far less comfy doing these than I normally do. It's probably because I roll really slowly when I do them. Plus I'm focusing really hard on what I need to do differently. I've skated almost every day for 4 years now, I'm probably not gonna get more comfy than I am. In any case here's what I usually look like. By no means stylish but not nearly as awkward and uncomfy. https://streamable.com/uqihus

Can you ollie? You don't look like you know how to ollie yet. Learn to ollie first.

Yeah. It's not the best ollie in the world, but it's fine. I can clear a deck almost every time. Plus I'm always working on my ollie, it's not like I stopped practicing it to do this instead. It may get better over time or I may have capped out, not sure. For a 34 year old it's OK and I know that it's enough to at least be able to learn a semi-decent kickflip. I can also already pop shuv, front shuv, front and back 180, go up and down curbs, I have a few tricks off curbs, I skate a lot of miniramp and have some pretty decent transition basics. Trust me, I'm not, like, rushing straight to kickflip or anything.

Roll faster! It's easier when you roll faster

Yeah, very frequent suggestion. Oddly I have found most of my success rolling very slowly. I struggled for ages with committing and unfortunately rolling much faster gives me a one way ticket back to chicken foot town. I practice rolling faster at least for part of my session, but I don't have much footage of my attempts at rolling faster because frankly they just aren't worth seeing. It's the typical front foot straight down to to the ground thing that beginners do when they don't commit. Trust me, I know I'm gonna have to get it faster, but for the life of me it doesn't feel easier when I roll faster. Maybe one day that'll start being easier, idk. But for now, I'll just continue experimenting with it.

Your foot position is weird, leave less of your back foot on the board

Yep, you're right, it's a little weird. Problem I'm running into is that I can't really scoot it back any more without the board starting to flip over and the toe side wheels coming off the ground. I'm pretty heavy and have fairly large feet. I do experiment with my foot position quite frequently though. All of my limited success so far has been with my more comfortable "wrong" position, so I'm hesitant to go all in on completely reworking the foot position, but it's definitely on my mind and I'll continue experimenting with it to see.

It's your shoulders!

Maybe! I don't know though. What I do know is that the board still turns backside even if I do the kickflip stationary with my arms locked straight and my palms pressed against a wall. Plus I almost feel like some of my best attempts have been where I intentionally leave my shoulders open? Like that first one in the first footage clip above. Aint that weird? Not gonna say it's not my shoulders, and I know it's, like, almost always your shoulders when you have a rotation issue, but my gut really feels like there's a bit more to it.

It's your back foot. You scoop it!

Now this I think is much more likely the culprit. I do a weird knee bend thing as I go up. I think this is a side effect of trying my hardest to jump diagonally up at the nose, forward in the direction of travel. That was one of the big revelations that finally got me my first few makes. The crazy thing is... I'm not totally sure that I know how to jump without swinging my knee backwards like that? I know that sounds crazy but if I do a box jump, my knees kind of do the same thing. Launch off the ground, bend back, raise up. If I try to keep my back totally straight and raise my knees straight up, it limits my ability to launch off the ground. It's tough. I think there's something to this but I don't really know how to approach fixing it. Plus I do know that I did the same weird thing on my makes, so there's clearly, physically speaking, a way to work around it. If you have ideas on how to approach training this, let me know.

Try to jump backwards while doing it - like a front shuv

Maybe...? I can't seem to figure out a way to do that while keeping the board under me. I'm workshopping it though. I think there might be something to that idea. Most people seem to land like 6 inches behind where they started when they kickflip even if they say they're not jumping backwards.

You're overthinking it. Just do something else and let it come naturally

Maybe. But I really want it. Plus in my experience, taking breaks from it has actually cost me quite a lot of progress historically. But that's, just like, my opinion man.

Those aren't makes. They don't count.

Yeah yeah, your face doesn't count. We're not at the berrics, this isn't a game of skate. It's not good enough for you? That's fine, we all have our own standards. Hell, I had people telling me to count the weight-off-board toe touches for years. My standard is that if my weight is completely on the board and it keeps rolling, that's a make. I'll even allow a slight toe brush as long as my body weight is fully on the board. I'm not doing it to impress you, I'm doing it for me.

[davy]

your back foot is in the pocket of the board with what looks like some toes hanging off. i think that is causing your board to go backside. try putting the ball of your foot in the middle of the tail or toward the inner/other pocket of the tail if that makes sense.

[ArgonautJon]

Yeah that's a common suggestion. I have issues implementing it though, due to some of the issues discussed in the FAQ. Namely that if I scoot my back foot further backwards, my board starts tipping over. It's already carving heelside slightly when I set up. I'm not sure how far back I can realistically scoot it. On tight trucks and hard bushings too. It's probably made more difficult by my weight and large feet. I'm still experimenting with it though so maybe something will click with that soon? Idk I'll definitely keep it in mind though, thanks.

[kook1234]

It's your shoulders!

Maybe! I don't know though. What I do know is that the board still turns backside even if I do the kickflip stationary with my arms locked straight and my palms pressed against a wall. Plus I almost feel like some of my best attempts have been where I intentionally leave my shoulders open? Like that first one in the first footage clip above. Aint that weird? Not gonna say it's not my shoulders, and I know it's, like, almost always your shoulders when you have a rotation issue, but my gut really feels like there's a bit more to it.

To me it looks like your opening your body forward, more in your knees than shoulders, but for me, I keep my shoulders and knees in line with the board. I get this comes after many years of being comfortable on the board. My knees and shoulders stay perpendicular to the nose of the board.  I’m goofy so if the nose is 12 o clock, knees and shoulders are pointed at 9.  I think about my flick going straight off the nose.

just for reference, it took me maybe a year to Ollie and then maybe another year to land my first kickflip. It wasn’t until maybe 3 years after I started skating that I was reliably doing kickflips.  When I would Ollie down something, my Ollie’s would do what your kickflip are doing and I think that’s a fear of commitment (feels safer to bail or fall facing forward than sideways)

keep ur chin up and keep trying. You’ll get it. also, keep filming and reviewing the footage. I don’t get to do this all that much but I find it very useful to check the assumptions I have on what I think I’m doing vs what I’m really doing

[ArgonautJon]

Expand Quote

It's your shoulders!

Maybe! I don't know though. What I do know is that the board still turns backside even if I do the kickflip stationary with my arms locked straight and my palms pressed against a wall. Plus I almost feel like some of my best attempts have been where I intentionally leave my shoulders open? Like that first one in the first footage clip above. Aint that weird? Not gonna say it's not my shoulders, and I know it's, like, almost always your shoulders when you have a rotation issue, but my gut really feels like there's a bit more to it.

[close]

To me it looks like your opening your body forward, more in your knees than shoulders, but for me, I keep my shoulders and knees in line with the board. I get this comes after many years of being comfortable on the board. My knees and shoulders stay perpendicular to the nose of the board.  I’m goofy so if the nose is 12 o clock, knees and shoulders are pointed at 9.  I think about my flick going straight off the nose.

Surely you're not keeping your front leg knee perpendicular, right? Like the foot is angled, surely? That's how most everyone sets up for a kf, right, with an angled front foot?

just for reference, it took me maybe a year to Ollie and then maybe another year to land my first kickflip. It wasn’t until maybe 3 years after I started skating that I was reliably doing kickflips.  When I would Ollie down something, my Ollie’s would do what your kickflip are doing and I think that’s a fear of commitment (feels safer to bail or fall facing forward than sideways)

Yeah I'm 4 years in now, been practicing kfs every day for a little over two years now. I'm pretty far below the progression curve. That's totally fine as long as I'm going somewhere and right now I'm not moving at all towards fixing the turn issue, which is what concerns me a bit.

[kook1234]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

It's your shoulders!

Maybe! I don't know though. What I do know is that the board still turns backside even if I do the kickflip stationary with my arms locked straight and my palms pressed against a wall. Plus I almost feel like some of my best attempts have been where I intentionally leave my shoulders open? Like that first one in the first footage clip above. Aint that weird? Not gonna say it's not my shoulders, and I know it's, like, almost always your shoulders when you have a rotation issue, but my gut really feels like there's a bit more to it.

[close]

To me it looks like your opening your body forward, more in your knees than shoulders, but for me, I keep my shoulders and knees in line with the board. I get this comes after many years of being comfortable on the board. My knees and shoulders stay perpendicular to the nose of the board.  I’m goofy so if the nose is 12 o clock, knees and shoulders are pointed at 9.  I think about my flick going straight off the nose.

[close]

Surely you're not keeping your front leg knee perpendicular, right? Like the foot is angled, surely? That's how most everyone sets up for a kf, right, with an angled front foot?

Expand Quote

just for reference, it took me maybe a year to Ollie and then maybe another year to land my first kickflip. It wasn’t until maybe 3 years after I started skating that I was reliably doing kickflips.  When I would Ollie down something, my Ollie’s would do what your kickflip are doing and I think that’s a fear of commitment (feels safer to bail or fall facing forward than sideways)

[close]

Yeah I'm 4 years in now, been practicing kfs every day for a little over two years now. I'm pretty far below the progression curve. That's totally fine as long as I'm going somewhere and right now I'm not moving at all towards fixing the turn issue, which is what concerns me a bit.

there might be the littlest bit of angle but honestly I can kick flip with my front foot perpendicular (Jeremy wray style), angled, up on the nose, and back in the middle of the board.  its really all about flicking off the nose for me.

I just watched your clips again and I think your foot placement is fine how you have it

I think it has to do with muscle memory - when im trying switch kick flips, which I can land maybe 1 out of 10 times if im lucky, I have to angle my foot more and also pray

[ArgonautJon]

there might be the littlest bit of angle but honestly I can kick flip with my front foot perpendicular (Jeremy wray style), angled, up on the nose, and back in the middle of the board.  its really all about flicking off the nose for me.

Wild! Weird, I'll keep that in mind, though. Thanks for the tips.

[Doodily]

Those aren't makes. They don't count.

Yeah yeah, your face doesn't count. We're not at the berrics…

Thanks so much for this, it made my day. I’m also an old dude (got 10 years on you  ) that has been trying for the past few years to get my kickflips locked down. I quit skating in my early 20s and just started back a few years ago. it’s been on and off due to injuries or life. The biggest breakthrough I had was when I started thinking of kickflips as an ollie first and then a little flick of my front foot once I leveled out the board in the air. Still far from where I want to be, but at least I’m skating.

Cheers to the Old Dude Skate Crew.

[Ok]

dude!
major respect.

i’ll reheat what others, and you, have noted a little bit here, but this is my attempt at being helpful.

several factors are causing you to back shifty on these kickflips. in my opinion, it is your foot placement, shoulder alignment, and maybe the position of your head.
if you were to stare directly down at your board, whilst standing next to it, and draw a line from the center of the tip of the nose, back towards the truck bolts, and the same from the tail, it might help.
your popping foot is on the toe side of your board. people can kickflip this way, but it makes for some difficult upper body adjustments. if you were having more success i’d say just stick with it, but you are not. so change it. move your backfoot, past the vertical line on your tail, onto the heel side of the board, or at the midline. to compensate for this, move your front foot, horizontally, towards the toe side of your board, past the midline of your board.
i am regular footed. sitting, feet flat, in a chair, i would start with the balls of my feet lined up, shoulder width apart. i then scorch my right foot back in inch or so, left foot up an inch or so. leaning forward in the chair, i raise my heels up a small amount, so that the balls of my feet are making contact with floor. i keep my head centered, and my shoulders squared to my imaginary board. this is the ideal kickflip position. practicing kickflips seated can help some people.
mike mo kickflip trick tip is helpful, bad romance in the background, what isn’t to like?
moving your flicking foot away from the heel side, may seem counterintuitive, but you will learn to compensate. you’ve got plenty of power.

again, i’m impressed.
i would also search @silhouette ’s comments on kickflips in @rocklobster ’s thread. both of those posters are kind, and helpful


** you definitely, and correctly, note your concerns with changing the foot position. but. if you wanted to do a backside kick turn, your backfoot would be in the position it’s currently in.
by moving your front foot towards the toe side, back foot toward the heel side, shoulders squared, head centered, you should not be turning as you are setup and rolling. others have said it best, and i think the first time i heard/read the theory it was connected to jeremy wray: building diagonal pressure, lengthwise, from one foot to another, helps this trick.

hopefully someone who is more sequential than i, jumps in and helps out.

[whale]

dude!
major respect.

i’ll reheat what others, and you, have noted a little bit here, but this is my attempt at being helpful.

several factors are causing you to back shifty on these kickflips. in my opinion, it is your foot placement, shoulder alignment, and maybe the position of your head.
if you were to stare directly down at your board, whilst standing next to it, and draw a line from the center of the tip of the nose, back towards the truck bolts, and the same from the tail, it might help.
your popping foot is on the toe side of your board. people can kickflip this way, but it makes for some difficult upper body adjustments. if you were having more success i’d say just stick with it, but you are not. so change it. move your backfoot, past the vertical line on your tail, onto the heel side of the board, or at the midline. to compensate for this, move your front foot, horizontally, towards the toe side of your board, past the midline of your board.
i am regular footed. sitting, feet flat, in a chair, i would start with the balls of my feet lined up, shoulder width apart. i then scorch my right foot back in inch or so, left foot up an inch or so. leaning forward in the chair, i raise my heels up a small amount, so that the balls of my feet are making contact with floor. i keep my head centered, and my shoulders squared to my imaginary board. this is the ideal kickflip position. practicing kickflips seated can help some people.
mike mo kickflip trick tip is helpful, bad romance in the background, what isn’t to like?
moving your flicking foot away from the heel side, may seem counterintuitive, but you will learn to compensate. you’ve got plenty of power.

again, i’m impressed.
i would also search @silhouette ’s comments on kickflips in @rocklobster ’s thread. both of those posters are kind, and helpful


** you definitely, and correctly, note your concerns with changing the foot position. but. if you wanted to do a backside kick turn, your backfoot would be in the position it’s currently in.
by moving your front foot towards the toe side, back foot toward the heel side, shoulders squared, head centered, you should not be turning as you are setup and rolling. others have said it best, and i think the first time i heard/read the theory it was connected to jeremy wray: building diagonal pressure, lengthwise, from one foot to another, helps this trick.

hopefully someone who is more sequential than i, jumps in and helps out.

Listen to this man.