Public Schooling Is Bad

[Dr Newton]

I just got back from voting against a proposal to increase taxes for the local public schools.  It's rather annoying that I have to drive across town in winter weather to provide a bit of information (literally) that should be blatantly obvious.  I mean, who in his right mind would choose to give away money for no reason?  I don't have any kids in the public school system, and there's a good chance I never will.  Why would I want to pay for it, and why should I have to?  "Do you want to pay extra for other peoples' kids to go to school?"  Hmmm... no.

It's pretty obvious what's going on.  People who send their kids to the public schools would prefer to make all of us pay, instead of just them. This makes the total out of their pocket less (or so they think; lack of accountability and competition also leads to huge inefficiencies which might cancel it all out). Let's ignore whether the schools squander the money through inefficiency, or waste it on fancy football fields and uniforms -- this might lead even a completely selfish parent to vote against these measures.  As long as the demographics are good (a significant fraction of families with school age kids), these proposals have a decent chance of passing.   I imagine that it's tougher to push this stuff through in areas dominated by the elderly, since they have no kids and like to vote in local elections.

This all got me to thinking.  Why not put forward a proposal to increase property tax in order to buy a 62" plasma screen TV for everyone in town whose last name comes before R alphabetically? Seriously. My name, conveniently, starts with M, and well over 50% of us will get the TV's. Screw the other people, this is a great way to get a big discount on a nice new TV.  Is this the mindset of the people pushing these school tax increase proposals?  Most likely not; they've probably rationalized it in some way (they have to, if they thought it through they might feel guilty).

I'd really like to try my TV idea, just to make a point.  Unfortunately, I'm afraid my point wouldn't really sink in.  When I mentioned the idea to a friend, the response was as I expected; that education is different because it's in my interest to live in a society of educated people.  I guess it's implied that it's not in my interest to live in a society where people have 62" plasma screen TV's.

Well, first of all, it may or may not be in my interest for more people to have the big TV's.  Who knows, maybe they'll be happier because of it and commit less crime; or simply stay home and cause less traffic congestion.  If you like, I could change it from a TV to a new car -- which creates less pollution, uses less gas and has better brakes (to avoid hitting me).  Are you buying this?  I'm kind of kidding, but kind of not. Lots of things may or may not benefit me, and education is one of them.  Unless you can quantify it (and refute the next argument) you're just blowing smoke.

Obviously, you shouldn't buy my bad arguments about taxpayer funded cars and TV's, but you shouldn't buy the education argument either.  People being educated does have the potential to benefit me, of course, but in a free market system I pay for it when they actually do something for me,  I don't need to pay for it up front.  For example, it helps me for there to be plumbers in the world -- especially when a pipe breaks in the middle of the night.  But does that mean I ought to pay for people to go to plumbing school up front?  No.  I pay for them when they actually fix the pipes.  It makes no sense to pay for their education up front and then pay again when the pipes get fixed; the fact that I and others are willing to pay for this service is the incentive to become a plumber.  Ideally, we keep the incentives right by having people both pay for their education and reap the rewards for that education later.

In case my point is still unclear, I'll try one more analogy.  A town is generally better off with a hardware store.  Would you conclude from that that it would be a good idea to pick someone at random and buy him a hardware store using tax money?  Good questions to ask would be: why, if there is such a need for a hardware store, wouldn't private investors find it worthwhile to build one?  Also, if the city buys a hardware store (against all reason), shouldn't the taxpayers own it?

I heard that they are considering a proposal locally to provide a tax credit for parents who send their kids to private school.  These parents are justifiably annoyed that they have to pay for the public school on top of the tuition for the private school.  It's amazing to me that someone actually considered this to be an injustice, but it didn't even occur to him that even more people are paying taxes who have no school age kids at all.  I wonder if they'd consider modifying the proposal to provide a generous tax credit (approximately equal to the amount paid for the public school system) to anyone who has kids in private school, or who homeschools, or who has no school age kids at all.  I'm not holding my breath.

Discuss.

[Gest]

why the fuck are the quote boxes purple? what a throwoff on the color scheme of the board

[artichoke]

I just browsed it, but is this really some libertarian bullshit trying to justify not paying school taxes?

[Dr Newton]

I just browsed it, but is this really some libertarian bullshit trying to justify not paying school taxes?

Yes.

I personally think we should abolish public schooling, and give every poor student $7,000 in a voucher money per year instead. It would close the bad schools and insure that everyone got a decent education. Also insure that the $7,000 wasn't wasted.

[NickDagger]

I sorta agree, sooooo much money is wasted in the public school system, like seriously hundreds of billions, and teacher's barely scrap by.

Check out private school results versus public school, rich parents send their kids their for a reason.

My mom has been a public school teacher for like 20 years, what she makes is a fucking disgrace.

I do want to point out that parents are usually the reason for shitty schools and shitty kids.

Sweeden and countries like that have a good view of education, it is all about who can memorize the most multiple test questions, and you can opt to go into a specialized school based on what you're interested in instead of wasting your time at high school and college like so many worthless people do here.

[grimcity]

I'd like to see tons of well spent money put into public schooling. One of those kids might be my geriatric doctor one day.

[baxty]

Kids don't want to go to school let alone have their parents pay for it. If people had to pay more for people to go into school the dropout to non dropout rate would be huge. I agree and would much rather have schooling the way it is in some european countries, but its not.

[longballlarry]

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I just browsed it, but is this really some libertarian bullshit trying to justify not paying school taxes?

[close]

Yes.

I personally think we should abolish public schooling, and give every poor student $7,000 in a voucher money per year instead. It would close the bad schools and insure that everyone got a decent education. Also insure that the $7,000 wasn't wasted.

first of all, i would just like to say that whoever wrote that garbage is clearly regular.
since there is clearly no help for that person, i'm not even going to say anything about him/her.
secondly, that whole giving $7,000 dollars or whatever to each student every year for tuition is a great idea.
here's a better idea, why don't we just make schools where these kids could go to for free, it's basically the same idea. instead of giving them each a certain amount of money to go to a private school, why don't we just put all that money together and open a school where everyone could go to.
also don't you think that private schools are so much better and safer than public schools because the kids that go there are way better off. If you go to a private school, than your family is usually better off than the kids from public schools. kids that live in better neighborhoods and have better upbringings are obviously going to behave better and do better in school. the bad kids from public schools are worse because they live in shitty neighborhoods and their parents are like immigrants and shit and they are surrounded with bad influences and it's just harder for them to succeed. since they know that they are already at such a huge disadvantage in life they just don't give a shit. they have a way harder upbringing than most private school kids. what's to say that if we give these kids money to attend private schools that the private schools won't be just as bad as the public schools. also the rich kids parents would just get pissed that they would have to pay for their child's private school education when the other kid's parent's don't.

[baxty]

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I just browsed it, but is this really some libertarian bullshit trying to justify not paying school taxes?

[close]

Yes.

I personally think we should abolish public schooling, and give every poor student $7,000 in a voucher money per year instead. It would close the bad schools and insure that everyone got a decent education. Also insure that the $7,000 wasn't wasted.

[close]

first of all, i would just like to say that whoever wrote that garbage is clearly regular.
since there is clearly no help for that person, i'm not even going to say anything about him/her.
secondly, that whole giving $7,000 dollars or whatever to each student every year for tuition is a great idea.
here's a better idea, why don't we just make schools where these kids could go to for free, it's basically the same idea. instead of giving them each a certain amount of money to go to a private school, why don't we just put all that money together and open a school where everyone could go to.
also don't you think that private schools are so much better and safer than public schools because the kids that go there are way better off. If you go to a private school, than your family is usually better off than the kids from public schools. kids that live in better neighborhoods and have better upbringings are obviously going to behave better and do better in school. the bad kids from public schools are worse because they live in shitty neighborhoods and their parents are like immigrants and shit and they are surrounded with bad influences and it's just harder for them to succeed. since they know that they are already at such a huge disadvantage in life they just don't give a shit. they have a way harder upbringing than most private school kids. what's to say that if we give these kids money to attend private schools that the private schools won't be just as bad as the public schools. also the rich kids parents would just get pissed that they would have to pay for their child's private school education when the other kid's parent's don't.

I agree.


gettin my post count up dawgz.

[Dr Newton]

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Expand Quote

I just browsed it, but is this really some libertarian bullshit trying to justify not paying school taxes?

[close]

Yes.

I personally think we should abolish public schooling, and give every poor student $7,000 in a voucher money per year instead. It would close the bad schools and insure that everyone got a decent education. Also insure that the $7,000 wasn't wasted.

[close]

first of all, i would just like to say that whoever wrote that garbage is clearly regular.
since there is clearly no help for that person, i'm not even going to say anything about him/her.
secondly, that whole giving $7,000 dollars or whatever to each student every year for tuition is a great idea.
here's a better idea, why don't we just make schools where these kids could go to for free, it's basically the same idea. instead of giving them each a certain amount of money to go to a private school, why don't we just put all that money together and open a school where everyone could go to.
also don't you think that private schools are so much better and safer than public schools because the kids that go there are way better off. If you go to a private school, than your family is usually better off than the kids from public schools. kids that live in better neighborhoods and have better upbringings are obviously going to behave better and do better in school. the bad kids from public schools are worse because they live in shitty neighborhoods and their parents are like immigrants and shit and they are surrounded with bad influences and it's just harder for them to succeed. since they know that they are already at such a huge disadvantage in life they just don't give a shit. they have a way harder upbringing than most private school kids. what's to say that if we give these kids money to attend private schools that the private schools won't be just as bad as the public schools. also the rich kids parents would just get pissed that they would have to pay for their child's private school education when the other kid's parent's don't.

Well, the government can't get it right now, so why trust them with opening another, "better" school?

The fact that parents would be "pissed" that they have to pay for there children's education is irrelevent. Parents are responsible for there children - they do not get "pissed" that they have to buy there kid's shoes or clothing. Why is education any different if they can afford it?

Private schools have to compete for money. That's why they are so much better. No private school would ever become "just as bad as a public school," especially with the threat of another opening down the street.

I just threw $7,000 because I think that is what we generally spend annually per student. I don't really know.

[BriDen]

The fact that parents would be "pissed" that they have to pay for there children's education is irrelevent. Parents are responsible for there children - they do not get "pissed" that they have to buy there kid's shoes or clothing. Why is education any different if they can afford it?

I think longball was talking about people living in very low-income areas, who probably didn't want children but were too stupid to use protection, or they had kids for a tax break. Those people will probably ruin their kids lives, at no fault of the children, so a free school might be the only option for them to have a future. The voucher is a good idea, but I can imagine ways around it, so the parents could just feed their crack fix and fuck their children over again.
Also, not all public schools are bad, and at the same time not all private schools are good. I've got friends who went to private school and told about how shitty it was, yet I went to public school and it really wasn't bad.

[longballlarry]

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Expand Quote

I just browsed it, but is this really some libertarian bullshit trying to justify not paying school taxes?

[close]

Yes.

I personally think we should abolish public schooling, and give every poor student $7,000 in a voucher money per year instead. It would close the bad schools and insure that everyone got a decent education. Also insure that the $7,000 wasn't wasted.

[close]

first of all, i would just like to say that whoever wrote that garbage is clearly regular.
since there is clearly no help for that person, i'm not even going to say anything about him/her.
secondly, that whole giving $7,000 dollars or whatever to each student every year for tuition is a great idea.
here's a better idea, why don't we just make schools where these kids could go to for free, it's basically the same idea. instead of giving them each a certain amount of money to go to a private school, why don't we just put all that money together and open a school where everyone could go to.
also don't you think that private schools are so much better and safer than public schools because the kids that go there are way better off. If you go to a private school, than your family is usually better off than the kids from public schools. kids that live in better neighborhoods and have better upbringings are obviously going to behave better and do better in school. the bad kids from public schools are worse because they live in shitty neighborhoods and their parents are like immigrants and shit and they are surrounded with bad influences and it's just harder for them to succeed. since they know that they are already at such a huge disadvantage in life they just don't give a shit. they have a way harder upbringing than most private school kids. what's to say that if we give these kids money to attend private schools that the private schools won't be just as bad as the public schools. also the rich kids parents would just get pissed that they would have to pay for their child's private school education when the other kid's parent's don't.

[close]

Well, the government can't get it right now, so why trust them with opening another, "better" school?

The fact that parents would be "pissed" that they have to pay for there children's education is irrelevent. Parents are responsible for there children - they do not get "pissed" that they have to buy there kid's shoes or clothing. Why is education any different if they can afford it?

Private schools have to compete for money. That's why they are so much better. No private school would ever become "just as bad as a public school," especially with the threat of another opening down the street.

I just threw $7,000 because I think that is what we generally spend annually per student. I don't really know.

okay, i don't want to turn this into an argument or anything.
but first of all. public schools compete for money also
secondly, you misunderstood me. i'm not saying that you build a new school down the street and put all the poor kids in it. or build a new super school or anything. i was saying that if you just took away public schooling in general and just gave every kid money to go to a private school, what's to say that those schools wouldn't be just as bad. if it's not the kids who make the schools bad, and both school systems are competing for money, and public schools apparently use up so much money, than what is it that make these schools bad?
thirdly giving each kid separate tuition for free, and opening a school for free is the same basic idea, except you just don't have to give the kid the money.
and also. i'm pretty sure private schools are way more expensive than 7g's. especially in around here.

[gangsta fred]

Americans are stupid, corn fed motherfuckers.

-the ace of spades

[Teacup]

Uhh taxes are bad, M'kay?

[sweets]

Americans are stupid, corn fed motherfuckers.

-the ace of spades

I can't believe I'm doing this but, I agree.

[Sleazy]

the problem is that we are so willing to spend billions a month on invading people but not as willing to provide a good education to all.

they need to reform the whole system and our governments priorities in general. i've been to just about every kind of school there is. i went to the singapore american school for a while where tution is very high and the quality of education was really good but then i later moved to australia and went to public schools that were on par with the expensive private schools i went too. i then later moved to the US and went to some pretty pathetic public schools and even the public universities are dumbed down pretty badly in the states.

i'm not saying i know how to fix the school system but why not start by looking at the countrys that do have good education and follow their lead? i'm pretty sure that a lot of european\western country's have good systems in place including Australia. and doesn't china educate the shit out of everyone over there?

the biggest trick in america will be getting the republican fan base to OK spending money on a non-war\oppresion agenda. figuring out where to put that money should be the easy part.


oh and the voucher system would screw middle class people who move to suburbs that have good public schools to avoid the expesnse of private schools and bullshit that is in city public schools. maybe that doesn't bother you but unless your futures looking like you either wont have kids or will be really rich, then maybe it should.

[KnockoutNed]

I just got back from voting against a proposal to increase taxes for the local public schools.  It's rather annoying that I have to drive across town in winter weather to provide a bit of information (literally) that should be blatantly obvious.  I mean, who in his right mind would choose to give away money for no reason?  I don't have any kids in the public school system, and there's a good chance I never will.  Why would I want to pay for it, and why should I have to?  "Do you want to pay extra for other peoples' kids to go to school?" 

out of all the massive wastes of tax money out there youre going to bitch about education?

[Sleazy]

not letting the people out there who want a better life for themselves through education have access to legal means of achieving that goal


what could possibly go wrong?

[poocrusher]

All progressive societies are based around some version of free education.  Because free education gives an more equal opportunity for the gain of knowledge required to get a good job.  Having a good job that pays well is the key ingredient to provide a better life for your own kids.  Therefore, free education is the first essential step to removing generational class lines.

[vicky]

I sorta agree, sooooo much money is wasted in the public school system, like seriously hundreds of billions, and teacher's barely scrap by.

Check out private school results versus public school, rich parents send their kids their for a reason.

My mom has been a public school teacher for like 20 years, what she makes is a fucking disgrace.

my mother has been in the catholic school system in the bronx and now long island for 35 years and gets paid shit, public school teachers in new york get paid a ridiculous amount of money especially science and math teachers. i went to private school all my life on scholarships and aid, so i dont know the different between public and private but i do know that i got a really, really good education. whoever said something about kids that have a harder upbringing are usually public school isnt really a good general statement, i was on welfare and going to private school while kids in my district going to public school drove benzs and shit. i guess i just live in a really mixed neighborhood but going to catholic or private school never HAD to mean that you had the money to go there.

[poocrusher]

my high school was closed because of a lack of academic performance.

[barr]

how are they gonna filter out the bad and good schools?

[mikefork]

my high school was closed because of a lack of academic performance.

my school is somehow a few million dollars over budget, which is weird because the school is literally falling apart. starting next year, they're going to double class sizes, drop a lot of classes, drop more classes that don't have at least fifteen kids in them, lay off a lot of teachers, and a bunch of other stuff. the kids that are freshmen and sophomores, as well as kids coming in next year, are all fucked. colleges aren't going to recognize their transcript as an actual high school transcript, which will lead to them having a harder time getting in, or not even being able to get in at all. i have two teachers that actually tell us what's going on and show us the memos that are sent to them by the school, and the school boards plan is to make the school so bad that the state will intervene a few years down the line and start giving them more funding

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

I think cumpulsory public education is important to a free society. The idea of making schools private would create more inequality in education than already exists. Are public schools fucked? Yes.  But it would get worse if we privatized it. If schools were done out of private enterprise what would happen is that all of the good schools would show up in richer neighborhoods and wealthier people would have even more reason to send their children to sealed off country club style schools. the innercity would be fucked because no private school wants to open up in bad spots.
   A public school system allows the arrangement of schools so that there will always be a school that is accessible to all students. Also,  The "$7000" voucher idea is ridiculous. I used to work at a mediocre private school that cost $16,000 a year, right now the federal government spends about $14,000 per student, and most money comes from local property taxes for schools. The kind of crappy education poor kids would get with a $7000 voucher would be fucked, though I guess it would save about $7000 a student on tax money.
Private school teachers generally make less money than public school teachers, but get cushier jobs. Both are getting way fucked in terms of pay considering the amount of time you have to put in as a teacher and compared to the type of money that people get paid for doing far less work. You get paid enough to be comfortable, but you gotta work your ass off for it in both public and private schools.

[poocrusher]

how are they gonna filter out the bad and good schools?

They call them CSAPS...or standardized testing.   

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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how are they gonna filter out the bad and good schools?

[close]

They call them CSAPS...or standardized testing.   

There are all sorts of standardized tests, and they all have one thing in common- they are one dimensional tests of knowledge that tend to be very slanted towards people who are the most culturally adjusted to American culture.
I'm sure other stuff would come into account, same with how private schools are rated now, who goes on to what college or secondary school, drop out rates, classroom size, amount of teachers per room, and if you are poor and don't give a fuck about your kid's education, I'm sure in this system their will be cheap schools that screw kids futures over but save mom and dad some tuition money. Yep, there are A LOT of parents like that.