Author Topic: Free Speech  (Read 6458 times)

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grimcity

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2008, 11:06:10 AM »
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Free speech all the way. I think public-airwaves radio and TV are too censored. Talking shit is awesome.

Harassment, inciting a riot, libel/slander and similar are are already on the law books, but hate speech in an of itself shouldn't be illegal... if the "hate speech" gets to the point where it resembles one of the things already on the books, roll with it.

More often than not, hate speech is just ignorant-ass speech, and though it would be tempting to make stupidity illegal, it would make life very boring, and probably pretentious.

[close]

So where do we draw the line? Someone like Oxy Limbaugh making false racist statements against Michele Obama is libel in my opinion.
I think the line's pretty much already been drawn, save for some situations that have a real grey area. I think Rush's worldview is both unrealistic and repugnant, but if he did commit an act of libel against Mrs. Obama, it's up to her to pursue that. Rush would just become a victim/martyr via the "activist judges" to his audience. There's a reason his fans are called "ditto heads," it's because they have no thought-forming processes of their own.

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2008, 11:19:59 AM »
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Free speech all the way. I think public-airwaves radio and TV are too censored. Talking shit is awesome.

Harassment, inciting a riot, libel/slander and similar are are already on the law books, but hate speech in an of itself shouldn't be illegal... if the "hate speech" gets to the point where it resembles one of the things already on the books, roll with it.

More often than not, hate speech is just ignorant-ass speech, and though it would be tempting to make stupidity illegal, it would make life very boring, and probably pretentious.

[close]

So where do we draw the line? Someone like Oxy Limbaugh making false racist statements against Michele Obama is libel in my opinion.
[close]
I think the line's pretty much already been drawn, save for some situations that have a real grey area. I think Rush's worldview is both unrealistic and repugnant, but if he did commit an act of libel against Mrs. Obama, it's up to her to pursue that. Rush would just become a victim/martyr via the "activist judges" to his audience. There's a reason his fans are called "ditto heads," it's because they have no thought-forming processes of their own.

So say something bad was to happen to someone because of Limbaugh, what do you feel should happen then.

grimcity

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2008, 11:49:08 AM »
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Free speech all the way. I think public-airwaves radio and TV are too censored. Talking shit is awesome.

Harassment, inciting a riot, libel/slander and similar are are already on the law books, but hate speech in an of itself shouldn't be illegal... if the "hate speech" gets to the point where it resembles one of the things already on the books, roll with it.

More often than not, hate speech is just ignorant-ass speech, and though it would be tempting to make stupidity illegal, it would make life very boring, and probably pretentious.

[close]

So where do we draw the line? Someone like Oxy Limbaugh making false racist statements against Michele Obama is libel in my opinion.
[close]
I think the line's pretty much already been drawn, save for some situations that have a real grey area. I think Rush's worldview is both unrealistic and repugnant, but if he did commit an act of libel against Mrs. Obama, it's up to her to pursue that. Rush would just become a victim/martyr via the "activist judges" to his audience. There's a reason his fans are called "ditto heads," it's because they have no thought-forming processes of their own.
[close]

So say something bad was to happen to someone because of Limbaugh, what do you feel should happen then.
Nothing, just like I don't blame Marilyn Manson for teen suicides.
Anyone that does something because a radio personality says to do it is in the same class as the Son of Sam, who did whatever his neighbor's dog told him to do. There are laws against violent acts already, and unless Rush actually incites a riot, he has the right to lie and be the shitbag that he is.

NickDagger

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2008, 08:44:18 PM »
Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
"DIS YA BOI NICK DAGGAL" -Arto Saari


fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2008, 09:35:33 PM »
Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.

NickDagger

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2008, 09:55:53 PM »
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Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
[close]

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.

Call it what you will, sacrificing freedom of speech of the individual for the supposed good of others is a slippery and ugly slope, also historically it is one of the first signs of a country's decline toward fascism.

If you don't believe in the right of others to express views you deplore, then you don't believe in free speech.
"DIS YA BOI NICK DAGGAL" -Arto Saari


fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2008, 09:57:21 PM »
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Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
[close]

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.
[close]

Call it what you will, sacrificing freedom of speech of the individual for the supposed good of others is a slippery and ugly slope, also historically it is one of the first signs of a country's decline toward fascism.

If you don't believe in the right of others to express views you deplore, then you don't believe in free speech.

I will ask the same question I asked Fig Newton, show me where I said I want to take away a person's right of speech? Please don't read into or make assumptions.

NickDagger

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2008, 10:00:14 PM »
I'm talking about the dirty Canadian and Europeans, and others that have made statements like "if doing away with hate speech would ____ then i'm all for it!"
"DIS YA BOI NICK DAGGAL" -Arto Saari


Beanss

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2008, 10:01:05 PM »
not a cool post

NickDagger

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2008, 10:32:57 PM »
So, with this in mind, I think it's clear that there must exist some limit on free speech. And these limits should include hate speech. People are entitled to opinions, racist ones as well as accepting ones, but when these opinions become words, and specifically words which endanger someone's security, then they must be stopped. Having a neo-nazi conference, or a nazi protest where participants are yelling slurs wouldn't directly endanger a counterprotestor's security because it's safe to assume that there would be police in the area. But if it was at a bar and some dude was calling a Jew a kyke etc, and enticing people to attack him based on his Jewishness, then that should be limited

What you describe could be charged as harassment or even reckless endangerment.

Assholes just as easily try and goad people into fighting calling them fat or talking shit about their clothes, baseball team, hair, girls or anything else.

Do we then add sports hating laws?

"Hate Speech" is just a non sequitur.

And any more laws sure as fuck aren't gonna make people stop being racist or doing what they're doing-just like with prohibition or anything else if you make something illegal it will just push it underground and create more black market and illegal activity, that is to say making everyone less safe.

Ever notice all the swastika graffiti randomly in European footage? Check out Torey Pudwell in the DVS video for instance, I noticed this after someone had told me that when they were in Europe one summer they noticed them EVERYWHERE. But hey, they have all those laws!?

Keep the assholes out in the open.

And again, it really is as simple as believing in free speech or not.

Grim's comparison to the supposed violence related to marilyon manson or rap music is accurate here.

In America we are to treat people and their actions for what they are, individual choices.  This is the way it must be if we have any desire to be free. Anything else is childish quasi-fascism.
"DIS YA BOI NICK DAGGAL" -Arto Saari


MyriadChoices

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2008, 10:44:23 PM »
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So, with this in mind, I think it's clear that there must exist some limit on free speech. And these limits should include hate speech. People are entitled to opinions, racist ones as well as accepting ones, but when these opinions become words, and specifically words which endanger someone's security, then they must be stopped. Having a neo-nazi conference, or a nazi protest where participants are yelling slurs wouldn't directly endanger a counterprotestor's security because it's safe to assume that there would be police in the area. But if it was at a bar and some dude was calling a Jew a kyke etc, and enticing people to attack him based on his Jewishness, then that should be limited
[close]

What you describe could be charged as harassment or even reckless endangerment.

Assholes just as easily try and goad people into fighting calling them fat or talking shit about their clothes, baseball team, hair, girls or anything else.

Do we then add sports hating laws?

"Hate Speech" is just a non sequitur.

And any more laws sure as fuck aren't gonna make people stop being racist or doing what they're doing-just like with prohibition or anything else if you make something illegal it will just push it underground and create more black market and illegal activity, that is to say making everyone less safe.

Ever notice all the swastika graffiti randomly in European footage? Check out Torey Pudwell in the DVS video for instance, I noticed this after someone had told me that when they were in Europe one summer they noticed them EVERYWHERE. But hey, they have all those laws!?

Keep the assholes out in the open.

And again, it really is as simple as believing in free speech or not.

Grim's comparison to the supposed violence related to marilyon manson or rap music is accurate here.

In America we are to treat people and their actions for what they are, individual choices.  This is the way it must be if we have any desire to be free. Anything else is childish quasi-fascism.

Those are good points, and the whole defining Hate Speech is tough, though I disagree that something shouldn't be implemented simply because it will 'go underground'. But then we'd be having a whole debate about the merits of laws in general.

I believe in free speech. I don't believe in going to a David Duke assembly and nudging people saying, "Hey, wanna go fuck up some niggers?" and I don't believe in people who do that receiving no punishment. I don't know a solution that satisfies both needs and beliefs but I don't believe it's as black and white as saying you either believe in free speech or not. Because under that ultimatium, then inciting a riot, slander, libel, etc, would be allowed and society would work out the 'assholes'.

I appreciate your comments though and would like to hear what you have to say.

NickDagger

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2008, 11:02:46 PM »
I believe in free speech. I don't believe in going to a David Duke assembly and nudging people saying, "Hey, wanna go fuck up some niggers?" and I don't believe in people who do that receiving no punishment. I don't know a solution that satisfies both needs and beliefs but I don't believe it's as black and white as saying you either believe in free speech or not. Because under that ultimatium, then inciting a riot, slander, libel, etc, would be allowed and society would work out the 'assholes'.

People should be free to say "HEY LETS KILL _____" but if any crime is actually committed, then there should be some conspiracy charge or something like that, the idea of incitement-style laws are kinda sketchy to me but I suppose if it was implemented decently that may be acceptable.
"DIS YA BOI NICK DAGGAL" -Arto Saari


Dr Newton

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2008, 11:37:41 PM »
I have no problem with the way canada runs there free speech laws. to me it prevents mass racism and the eventual hate crimes. but thats just my opinion

Jesus fucking Christ. It's like you don't get that the government takes away a little bit of power, and then it takes away a little more, and then a little more. Soon, free speech is dead. But what the fuck do I, or science, know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique

Society deserves every fucking thing it gets, because it is filled with regular pieces of shit like you. I bet you think that was an intelligent, almost witty comment, and that you are the "enlightened" one for "looking abroad" at the shit stain we call a hat.

Dr Newton

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2008, 08:36:20 AM »
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Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
[close]

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.
[close]

Call it what you will, sacrificing freedom of speech of the individual for the supposed good of others is a slippery and ugly slope, also historically it is one of the first signs of a country's decline toward fascism.

If you don't believe in the right of others to express views you deplore, then you don't believe in free speech.
[close]

I will ask the same question I asked Fig Newton, show me where I said I want to take away a person's right of speech? Please don't read into or make assumptions.

You automatically think I am fucking talking to you; like the shit you have to say is worthy of my response. It is not. I was talking to that other faggot.

PAWL

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2008, 10:05:18 AM »
people have rights until their rights infringe on the rights of others......... "infringing" is open to interpretation. honestly i don't care.
yo mike mo new age ape style high five with my reborn hand.

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crunk juice

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2008, 12:19:36 PM »
veganshawn, did you seriously delete my post in the free speech topic?  you're a joke.

as far as i know there isn't really any federal law directly prohibiting hate speech in america - for example a kkk leader can go and give a speech about how niggers are taking their jobs, etc...and as long as he doesn't knowingly try to produce imminent lawless action...his speech is protected.
the law for advocacy of illegal action (incitement) = speech can only be prohibited if it is 'directed at inciting or producing imminent lawless action AND is likely to incite or produce such action.'

the law on libel depends on who the person is talking about - if it's a public figure and the speech is on a matter of public concern the speech is much more protected than if the person is talking about a private citizen on a matter of private concern.  i don't know what limbaugh said about michelle obama, but it could probably be construed as on a matter of public concern and she is a public figure.  So, to get limbaugh for libel michelle obama (she would have to be the plaintiff) would have to prove that the statement was both 'defamatory and false, and made with reckless disregard for the truth or knowledge of its untruth.'  there is no chance that m obama in the middle of the campaign is going to sue rush limbaugh, and even if she did, she'd probably lose.

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2008, 01:16:46 PM »
veganshawn, did you seriously delete my post in the free speech topic?  you're a joke.

I cleaned up the topic that is all, there was some stuff that had nothing to do with the topic. Nice try at being a martyr, boo hoo you fucking worthless baby.  :-*

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2008, 01:17:24 PM »
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Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
[close]

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.
[close]

Call it what you will, sacrificing freedom of speech of the individual for the supposed good of others is a slippery and ugly slope, also historically it is one of the first signs of a country's decline toward fascism.

If you don't believe in the right of others to express views you deplore, then you don't believe in free speech.
[close]

I will ask the same question I asked Fig Newton, show me where I said I want to take away a person's right of speech? Please don't read into or make assumptions.
[close]

Of course when I am proved wrong I resort to name calling because I am not man enough to own up.

kilgore.

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2008, 01:22:02 PM »
veganshawn you are a fucking worthless baby.

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2008, 01:25:57 PM »
veganshawn you are a fucking worthless baby.

 ;D This made me laugh, if you are going to put me down come up with your own material, jeez.

kilgore.

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 01:27:41 PM »
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veganshawn, did you seriously delete my post in the free speech topic?  you're a joke.
[close]

I cleaned up the topic that is all, there was some stuff that had nothing to do with the topic. Nice try at being a martyr, boo hoo you fucking worthless baby.  :-*

wow...the irony is something else on this one.

kilgore.

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2008, 01:28:57 PM »
dude you are seriously the biggest pussy i have ever seen on this forum. you cry like something i've never seen, and you're a grown fucking man.

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2008, 01:32:24 PM »
dude you are seriously the biggest pussy i have ever seen on this forum. you cry like something i've never seen, and you're a grown fucking man.

Does it make you feel like a big man to call people names and kook them when you get the chance, must make you feel so tough. Now you are ruining this topic and why, so you can stick up for something and look cool. I cleaned up the topic because I didn't want the thread ruined and now you are going and ruining it. Way to go young ass kid.

kilgore.

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2008, 01:38:14 PM »
you have the most stained logic on this forum, everything you say is full of complete shit. youre ruining this forum in it's entirety. "looking cool" get your head out of your ass and stop rerouting the only thing that matters right now. the fact that your existence on this forum is saddening to anyone with a fucking brain. at the very least your moderation abilities should be stripped. avoiding your ignorance by calling me a young ass kid and saying i'm looking cool forever proves your inability to be senile. get the fuck out of here you piece of trash. stop positioning this shit with "big man" and all this ridiculous nonsense because you do it every fucking time any one calls you out and continually fail to see your pathetic and ridiculous abilities. man the fuck up.

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2008, 01:40:55 PM »
you have the most stained logic on this forum, everything you say is full of complete shit. youre ruining this forum in it's entirety. "looking cool" get your head out of your ass and stop rerouting the only thing that matters right now. the fact that your existence on this forum is saddening to anyone with a fucking brain. at the very least your moderation abilities should be stripped. avoiding your ignorance by calling me a young ass kid and saying i'm looking cool forever proves your inability to be senile. get the fuck out of here you piece of trash. stop positioning this shit with "big man" and all this ridiculous nonsense because you do it every fucking time any one calls you out and continually fail to see your pathetic and ridiculous abilities. man the fuck up.

Ha ha ha honestly you wasted 5 mins writing this. ha ha ha ha ha ha thanks for the laughs keep them coming.

kilgore.

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2008, 01:42:28 PM »
absolutely pathetic.

fuckingvegan

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2008, 01:44:16 PM »

Dr Newton

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2008, 01:45:21 PM »
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Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
[close]

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.
[close]

Call it what you will, sacrificing freedom of speech of the individual for the supposed good of others is a slippery and ugly slope, also historically it is one of the first signs of a country's decline toward fascism.

If you don't believe in the right of others to express views you deplore, then you don't believe in free speech.
[close]

I will ask the same question I asked Fig Newton, show me where I said I want to take away a person's right of speech? Please don't read into or make assumptions.
[close]

Of course when I am proved wrong I resort to name calling because I am not man enough to own up.
[close]

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I WAS NOT TALKING TO YOU. Jesus Christ.

fuckingvegan

  • Guest
Re: Free Speech
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2008, 01:46:51 PM »
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Apparently 7 out of 10 of you are semi-fascists.

Discuss.
[close]

You should look up the definition before you start name calling like that.
[close]

Call it what you will, sacrificing freedom of speech of the individual for the supposed good of others is a slippery and ugly slope, also historically it is one of the first signs of a country's decline toward fascism.

If you don't believe in the right of others to express views you deplore, then you don't believe in free speech.
[close]

I will ask the same question I asked Fig Newton, show me where I said I want to take away a person's right of speech? Please don't read into or make assumptions.
[close]

Of course when I am proved wrong I resort to name calling because I am not man enough to own up.
[close]
[close]

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I WAS NOT TALKING TO YOU. Jesus Christ.

Then what was the "saving the whales" comment about?  :-*

kilgore.

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Re: Free Speech
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2008, 01:48:12 PM »
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I am absolutely pathetic.
[close]


wow...for the sake of the laughter or pure second hand embarrassment, please tell us how old you are.