McSame picked a women VP

[NickDagger]

I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992. Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her father was my child’s favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the residents of the city.

She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and won’t vote for her can’t quit smiling when talking about her because she is a “babe”.

It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents for seven months. She is “pro-life”. She recently gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby. There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby. She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.

She is savvy. She doesn’t take positions; she just “puts things out there” and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit. Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything like that of native Alaskans. Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters. She’s smart.

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000 (at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about 670,000 residents. During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign.

Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation (1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they benefited residents.

The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was still in litigation 7 yrs later–to the delight of the lawyers involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.

While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office redecorated more than once. These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city. As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.

In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today’s surplus, borrow for needs.

She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideasor compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the basis of who proposed them.

While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of “old boys”. Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal–loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated” her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska’s top cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure and she had every legal right to fire him, but it’s pretty clear that an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn’t fire her sister’s ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew her support.

She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.

Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything publicly about her.

When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party) engaged in unethical behavior on the job.

In a gutsy move which some undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit, exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).

As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative action restored most of these projects–which had been vetoed simply because she was not aware of their importance–but with the unobservant she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.

She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah.

They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah’s mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked toglobal warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a heartbeat away from being President. There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more knowledgeable and experienced than she. However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are regretting it.

CLAIM VS FACT

•“Hockey mom”: true for a few years
•“PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary school, not since
•“NRA supporter”: absolutely true
•social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships (said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
•pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to promote it.
•“Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life legislation
•“Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska. No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city administrator to run town of about 5,000.
•political maverick: not at all
•gutsy: absolutely!
•open & transparent: Good at keeping secrets. Not good at explaining actions.
•has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
•”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
•fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
•pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built streets to early 20th century standards.
•pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on residents
•pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city government in Wasilla’s history.
•pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim that she is pro-labor/pro-union.

WHY AM I WRITING THIS?

First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny + Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local government, education, and PTA/parent organizations.

Secondly, I’ve always operated in the belief that “Bad things happen when good people stay silent”. Few people know as much as I do because few have gone to as many City Council meetings.

Third, I am just a housewife. I don’t have a job she can bump me out of. I don’t belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will cost me somehow in the future: that’s life.

Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100 or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah’s attempt at censorship.

Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to say anything because they were somehow vulnerable.

CAVEATS

I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor) from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of Wasilla, and I can’t recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible for a private person to get any info out of City Hall–they are swamped. So I can’t verify my numbers.

You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the population of Wasilla, ranging from my “about 5,000″, up to 9,000. The day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was 5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to 2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.

Anne Kilkenny
August 31 2008

[AsburyPark]

There are substantial differences in what would come from the small differences between a Obama and Mccain presidency. I presented them, and considering we know it will be one or the other in office-those differences are worth considering.

I wasn't addressing anyone personally with that delicious turd I dropped in the punchbowl but since we're on the subject... I  agree with your views here and those of Chomsky about 98% of the time (with his views on 9/11 being the major exception).

"It's the primary function of the mass media in the United States to mobilize public support for the special interests that dominate the government and the private sector."  Noamsky said it all right there.

Like you, I would also pick Obama over McCain on paper but I probably have more of a chance of catching the Jersey Devil by his hoof here in the Pine Barrens than ever seeing Obama live up to half of what he's claiming, especially the Iraq scenario.

Carry on.

 

[NickDagger]

I certainly agree, it's all rhetoric, and both will serve the same corporate interests.

Just basic institutions are likely to function better under Obama than Mccain.

Also, his VP isn't a beauty queen.

[Rocuronium]

Hey Nick,

Could you give a source/reference for those pie charts?

[Sleazy]

I certainly agree, it's all rhetoric, and both will serve the same corporate interests.

why do you believe that?

[Al Bania]

Expand Quote

I certainly agree, it's all rhetoric, and both will serve the same corporate interests.

[close]

why do you believe that?

I'm guessing because of the mutual CFR connections?

[NickDagger]

Expand Quote

I certainly agree, it's all rhetoric, and both will serve the same corporate interests.

[close]

why do you believe that?

A firm grip on reality, and a list of their corporate contributers.

This is a good article on that matter:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/22210615/candidates_for_sale

Obama'a recent vote on FISA is a good early indicator on what you can expect.

That aside, as I pointed out, the small differences between McCain and Obama, are certainly worth considering. I'm voting for Obama.

[NickDagger]

Hey Nick,

Could you give a source/reference for those pie charts?

I knew the facts so I just grabbed the first ones I knew were accurate at random, but:

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

Is a fantastic website.

[Sleazy]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

I certainly agree, it's all rhetoric, and both will serve the same corporate interests.

[close]

why do you believe that?

[close]

A firm grip on reality, and a list of their corporate contributers.

This is a good article on that matter:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/22210615/candidates_for_sale

Obama'a recent vote on FISA is a good early indicator on what you can expect.

That aside, as I pointed out, the small differences between McCain and Obama, are certainly worth considering. I'm voting for Obama.

so i've done some research on this and apparently the candidates are using a technique called bundling to get corporate cash and it looks like obama is dipping deep: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/bundlers.php?id=N00009638

nick what you got on money that he's getting form lobbyist?

[Gatoraids]

Three months before she was thrust into the national political spotlight, Gov. Sarah Palin was asked to handle a much smaller task: addressing the graduating class of commission students at her one-time church, Wasilla Assembly of God.


Her speech in June provides as much insight into her policy leanings as anything uncovered since she was asked to be John McCain's running mate.

Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord.


"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan.
"

Religion, however, was not strictly a thread in Palin's foreign policy. It was part of her energy proposals as well. Just prior to discussing Iraq, Alaska's governor asked the audience to pray for another matter -- a $30 billion national gas pipeline project that she wanted built in the state. "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.


Palin's address, much of which was spent reflecting on the work of the church in which she grew up and was baptized, underscores the notion that her world view is deeply impacted by religion.
In turn, her remarks raise important questions: mainly, what is Palin's faith and how exactly has it influenced her policies?

A review of recorded sermons by Ed Kalnins, the senior pastor of Wasilla Assembly of God since 1999, offers a provocative and, for some, eyebrow-raising sketch of Palin's longtime spiritual home.

The church runs a number of ministries providing help to poor neighborhoods, care for children in need, and general community services. But Pastor Kalnins has also preached that critics of President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven; charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war "contending for your faith;" and said that Jesus "operated from that position of war mode.
"

It is impossible to determine how much Wasilla Assembly of God has shaped Palin's thinking. She was baptized there at the age of 12 and attended the church for most of her adult life. When Palin was inaugurated as governor, the founding pastor of the church delivered the invocation. In 2002, Palin moved her family to a nondenominational church, but she continues to worship at a related Assembly of God church in Juneau.


Moreover, she "has maintained a friendship with Wasilla Assembly of God and has attended various conferences and special meetings here," Kalnins' office said in a statement. "As for her personal beliefs," the statement added, "Governor Palin is well able to speak for herself on those issues.
"
Clearly, however, Palin views the church as the source of an important, if sometimes politically explosive, message. "Having grown up here, and having little kids grow up here also, this is such a special, special place," she told the congregation in June. "What comes from this church I think has great destiny.
"

And if the political storm over Barack Obama's former pastor Jeremiah Wright is any indication, Palin may face some political fallout over the more controversial teachings of Wasilla Assembly of God.

If the church had a political alignment, it would almost surely be conservative. In his sermons, Kalnins did not hide his affections for certain national politicians.


During the 2004 election season, he praised President Bush's performance during a debate with Sen. John Kerry, then offered a not-so-subtle message about his personal candidate preferences. "I'm not going tell you who to vote for, but if you vote for this particular person, I question your salvation. I'm sorry." Kalnins added: "If every Christian will vote righteously, it would be a landslide every time.
"
Months after hinting at possible damnation for Kerry supporters, Kalnins bristled at the treatment President Bush was receiving over the federal government's handling of Hurricane Katrina. "I hate criticisms towards the President," he said, "because it's like criticisms towards the pastor -- it's almost like, it's not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That's what it'll get you.
"

Much of his support for the current administration has come in the realm of foreign affairs. Kalnins has preached that the 9/11 attacks and the invasion of Iraq were part of a "world war" over the Christian faith, one in which Jesus Christ had called upon believers to be willing to sacrifice their lives.


"What you see in a terrorist -- that's called the invisible enemy. There has always been an invisible enemy. What you see in Iraq, basically, is a manifestation of what's going on in this unseen world called the spirit world. ... We need to think like Jesus thinks. We are in a time and a season of war, and we need to think like that. We need to develop that instinct. We need to develop as believers the instinct that we are at war, and that war is contending for your faith. ... Jesus called us to die. You're worried about getting hurt? He's called us to die. Listen, you know we can't even follow him unless you are willing to give up your life. ... I believe that Jesus himself operated from that position of war mode. Everyone say "war mode." Now you say, wait a minute Ed, he's like the good shepherd, he's loving all the time and he's kind all the time. Oh yes he is -- but I also believe that he had a part of his thoughts that knew that he was in a war.
"

As for his former congregant and current vice presidential candidate, Kalnins has asserted that Palin's election as governor was the result of a "prophetic call" by another pastor at the church who prayed for her victory. "[He made] a prophetic declaration and then unfolds the kingdom of God, you know.
"

Even Palin expressed surprise at that pastor's advocacy for her candidacy. "He was praying over me," she said in June. "He's praying, 'Lord make a way, Lord make a way...' And I'm thinking, this guy's really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm gonna do, he doesn't know what my plans are, and he's praying not, 'Oh Lord, if it be your will may she become governor,' or whatever. No, he just prayed for it. He said, 'Lord, make a way, and let her do this next step.' And that's exactly what happened. So, again, very very powerful coming from this church.
"

In his sermons, Pastor Kalnins has also expressed beliefs that, while not directly political, lie outside of mainstream Christian thought.


He preaches repeatedly about the "end times" or "last days," an apocalyptic prophesy held by a small but vocal group of Christian leaders. During his appearance with Palin in June, he declared, "I believe Alaska is one of the refuge states in the last days, and hundreds of thousands of people are going to come to the state to seek refuge and the church has to be ready to minister to them.
"

He also claims to have received direct "words of knowledge" from God, providing him information about past events in other people's lives. During one sermon, he described being paired with a complete stranger during a golf outing. "I said, I'm a minister from Alaska and I want you to know that your wife left you -- you know that your wife left you and that the Lord is gonna defend you in a very short time, and it wasn't your fault. And the man drops his clubs, he literally was about to tee off and he dropped his clubs, and he says, 'Who the blank are you?' And I says, 'well, I'm a minister.' He says, 'how do you know about my life? What do you know?' And I started giving him more of the word of knowledge to his life and he was freaked out.
"

Kalnins has, of course, preached on a bevy of topics ranging from humility to "overcoming bitterness." But the more controversial remarks reported above were not out of the norm, appearing in numerous sermons spanning the four years of available recordings.


As for Palin, her views on these topics is more opaque. In the wake of the controversy over Jeremiah Wright, a debate has raged about whether political figures should be held responsible for the comments of their religious guiders. Clearly, however, Kalnins, like many national conservative religious leaders, sees Alaska's governor as one of his own. "Gov. Sarah Palin is the real deal," he told his church this past summer. "You know, some people put on a show...but she's the real deal."

[Sleazy]

OK, I did some more research and it looks like Obama isn't taking money registred federal lobbyist but he has taken money from MoveOn.org and is taking money from state and city lobbyist. He's also taking money from large corporations through bundling but i also found this:

"Obama's campaign figures show that 94 percent of the money going to Obama comes from people writing checks for $200 or less."

which seems promising too me.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/29/lobbyists/

[Dr Newton]

So you're against Government intervention and regulation in the free market? Awesome. So that means you're against corporations, which were created by government action, you're against the gigantic bailouts that the Bush administration has handed out to Fannie May and others right?

I didn't even read your other post (it was very long and I do not have a lot of time for internet debating tonight), and I know I said that I was over internet arguing about the election, but I just wanted to point one thing out:

Logical fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

Being in favor of a "free market" does not necessarily mean you are against corporations. Despite Adam Smith's reservations about joint-stock companies, a lot of capitalists have amended there own personal economic philosophies to accept the role of corporations. It also does not necessarily mean you are against bail outs either (although I am). In fact, most capitalists (except anarcho-capitalists) agree that the government should oversee the economy to some extent -- this means doing things like encouraging competition and prevention of monopolies, as Adam Smith suggested, as well as insuring that a 401k investor in Indiana is not liable for the things that Nike does in Indonesia. This is the whole concept behind what a corporation does, and it makes a world of sense to most people....

[Novella]

Novella.

Stop.

Listen.

In the 80s and 90s Obama was busy being the president of The Harvard Law Review and learning/teaching constitutional Law, being a community organizer(elitist!), then he was in the Illinois state legislature from 1996-2004, then becoming a Senator in congress.

Compare that with Sarah Palin, who in the same time period was busy being trained as a beauty queen, then a sports anchor and then mayor of a town of 7,000 people, then was governor of a state with less than a third the population of Chicago for the blink of an eye.

I mean you either get that or not.


To AsburyPark: I love Ron Paul, but come off it. There are substantial differences in what would come from the small differences between a Obama and Mccain presidency. I presented them, and considering we know it will be one or the other in office-those differences are worth considering.

These irrelevant personal attacks are getting ridiculous. Sarah Pallin, a woman, who has achieved vast amounts of political success is an incapable person right? Which school a candidate graduated from  is more important than the issues?

You're a joke.

I perused through your uninformed pontifications about the economy it has become evident to me that having a discussion with you will get me no where. You make unreasonable assumptions left and right, extend my arguments to the point of absurdity, and purposely misinterpret my points.

[the j]

Expand Quote

So you're against Government intervention and regulation in the free market? Awesome. So that means you're against corporations, which were created by government action, you're against the gigantic bailouts that the Bush administration has handed out to Fannie May and others right?

[close]

I didn't even read your other post (it was very long and I do not have a lot of time for internet debating tonight), and I know I said that I was over internet arguing about the election, but I just wanted to point one thing out:

Logical fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

Being in favor of a "free market" does not necessarily mean you are against corporations. Despite Adam Smith's reservations about joint-stock companies, a lot of capitalists have amended there own personal economic philosophies to accept the role of corporations. It also does not necessarily mean you are against bail outs either (although I am). In fact, most capitalists (except anarcho-capitalists) agree that the government should oversee the economy to some extent -- this means doing things like encouraging competition and prevention of monopolies, as Adam Smith suggested, as well as insuring that a 401k investor in Indiana is not liable for the things that Nike does in Indonesia. This is the whole concept behind what a corporation does, and it makes a world of sense to most people....

WHAT I SAY NEWT! GTFO

nah but that was your only legit post in a while

[Gatoraids]

Novella - If you think Palin is a good choice you have been had. She is a hack and only got the nod because Mcbush's advisers knew American's are stupid enough to vote for someone based on looks. Our country in trouble and I am scared for the future.

[human being]

Novella - If you think Palin is a good choice you have been had. She is a hack and only got the nod because Mcbush's advisers knew American's are stupid enough to vote for someone based on looks. Our country in trouble and I am scared for the future.

The future holds the truth.

[NickDagger]

Expand Quote

So you're against Government intervention and regulation in the free market? Awesome. So that means you're against corporations, which were created by government action, you're against the gigantic bailouts that the Bush administration has handed out to Fannie May and others right?

[close]

I didn't even read your other post (it was very long and I do not have a lot of time for internet debating tonight), and I know I said that I was over internet arguing about the election, but I just wanted to point one thing out:

Logical fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

Being in favor of a "free market" does not necessarily mean you are against corporations. Despite Adam Smith's reservations about joint-stock companies, a lot of capitalists have amended there own personal economic philosophies to accept the role of corporations. It also does not necessarily mean you are against bail outs either (although I am). In fact, most capitalists (except anarcho-capitalists) agree that the government should oversee the economy to some extent -- this means doing things like encouraging competition and prevention of monopolies, as Adam Smith suggested, as well as insuring that a 401k investor in Indiana is not liable for the things that Nike does in Indonesia. This is the whole concept behind what a corporation does, and it makes a world of sense to most people....

Except to those workers in Indonesia and the people that used to have the well paying jobs in America, you dumb fuck.

Corporations are not the friend of the free market. I am really astonished that you could talk about being for the government encouraging competition and preventing monopolies in the same breath in which you give your support to corporations.

Watch the documentary. Nothing presented is controversial, it just shows how they came to be, what the structure of a corporation necessarily leads to, and shows inside factory's, and shit that I'm sure you don't give a fuck about, but if you really want to talk about corporations smugly, you might as well at least learn about them and their effects around the world:

[NickDagger]

Expand Quote

Novella.

Stop.

Listen.

In the 80s and 90s Obama was busy being the president of The Harvard Law Review and learning/teaching constitutional Law, being a community organizer(elitist!), then he was in the Illinois state legislature from 1996-2004, then becoming a Senator in congress.

Compare that with Sarah Palin, who in the same time period was busy being trained as a beauty queen, then a sports anchor and then mayor of a town of 7,000 people, then was governor of a state with less than a third the population of Chicago for the blink of an eye.

I mean you either get that or not.


To AsburyPark: I love Ron Paul, but come off it. There are substantial differences in what would come from the small differences between a Obama and Mccain presidency. I presented them, and considering we know it will be one or the other in office-those differences are worth considering.

[close]

These irrelevant personal attacks are getting ridiculous. Sarah Pallin, a woman, who has achieved vast amounts of political success is an incapable person right? Which school a candidate graduated from  is more important than the issues?

You're a joke.

I perused through your uninformed pontifications about the economy it has become evident to me that having a discussion with you will get me no where. You make unreasonable assumptions left and right, extend my arguments to the point of absurdity, and purposely misinterpret my points.

What personal attacks?

I said she is a beauty queen.  She is.

I said she was a sports anchor. She was.

I said she was the mayor of a town of less than 7,000. She was.

I said the biggest post she had was a brief stint as governor of a state with a population one third the population of Chicago. She was.

I said she flip-flopped on the bridge to nowhere, and now triumphantly lies and acts like she wasn't just put a stop to it when everyone else was pushing for it. She did

I said she refuses to give any serious interviews, unlike the other three candidates on the two major party tickets. She does.


I mean yeah, she just seems unqualified, incompetent, and just a cynical pick BASED ON THE FACTS.


I also compared Obama's record of being editor of the Harvard Law Review, teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago, being in the state legislature of Illonis for 8 years, and then being a Senator as favoarable to:

Palin's record of switching schools 5 times in 6 years, being a beauty queen, being a sports reporter, being a mayor of a tiny town and then very briefly being governor of state with a very small population.

But you know I guess those are all just PERSONAL attacks right?

Jesus fucking christ.

You know who had a lot of "political success?"

George Bush.

I bet you wish you could vote for him again don't you?

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[Novella]

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Novella.

Stop.

Listen.

In the 80s and 90s Obama was busy being the president of The Harvard Law Review and learning/teaching constitutional Law, being a community organizer(elitist!), then he was in the Illinois state legislature from 1996-2004, then becoming a Senator in congress.

Compare that with Sarah Palin, who in the same time period was busy being trained as a beauty queen, then a sports anchor and then mayor of a town of 7,000 people, then was governor of a state with less than a third the population of Chicago for the blink of an eye.

I mean you either get that or not.


To AsburyPark: I love Ron Paul, but come off it. There are substantial differences in what would come from the small differences between a Obama and Mccain presidency. I presented them, and considering we know it will be one or the other in office-those differences are worth considering.

[close]

These irrelevant personal attacks are getting ridiculous. Sarah Pallin, a woman, who has achieved vast amounts of political success is an incapable person right? Which school a candidate graduated from  is more important than the issues?

You're a joke.

I perused through your uninformed pontifications about the economy it has become evident to me that having a discussion with you will get me no where. You make unreasonable assumptions left and right, extend my arguments to the point of absurdity, and purposely misinterpret my points.

[close]

What personal attacks?

I said she is a beauty queen.  She is.

I said she was a sports anchor. She was.

I said she was the mayor of a town of less than 7,000. She was.

I said the biggest post she had was a brief stint as governor of a state with a population one third the population of Chicago. She was.

I said she flip-flopped on the bridge to nowhere, and now triumphantly lies and acts like she wasn't just put a stop to it when everyone else was pushing for it. She did

I said she refuses to give any serious interviews, unlike the other three candidates on the two major party tickets. She does.


I mean yeah, she just seems unqualified, incompetent, and just a cynical pick BASED ON THE FACTS.


I also compared Obama's record of being editor of the Harvard Law Review, teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago, being in the state legislature of Illonis for 8 years, and then being a Senator as favoarable to:

Palin's record of switching schools 5 times in 6 years, being a beauty queen, being a sports reporter, being a mayor of a tiny town and then very briefly being governor of state with a very small population.

But you know I guess those are all just PERSONAL attacks right?

Jesus fucking christ.

You know who had a lot of "political success?"

George Bush.

I bet you wish you could vote for him again don't you?

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

A personal attack is bringing out someone's personal life to attack them. You would probably flip your shit if I listed Obama's muslim father as a reason for disliking him, or suggesting that he was mentally unstable because he was raised by a single mother.
Also learn to read. I have alreday explained to you rmorons I do not support Bush, the republican party, or McCain. Do you live in an insane fantasy world where everyone who disagrees with you is either a fanatical republican or is the head of an evil corporation?
Keep getting your ideas from documentaries which are more respected for their entertainment qualities than their educational ones.

Novella - If you think Palin is a good choice you have been had. She is a hack and only got the nod because Mcbush's advisers knew American's are stupid enough to vote for someone based on looks. Our country in trouble and I am scared for the future.

Really, you morons are starting to lose it. How many times have I said I'm not supporting either candidate? Several throughout this thread. Get off it you illiterate fucks.

[spungo]

Novella is on par with Alaska.

[Sleazy]

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So you're against Government intervention and regulation in the free market? Awesome. So that means you're against corporations, which were created by government action, you're against the gigantic bailouts that the Bush administration has handed out to Fannie May and others right?

[close]

I didn't even read your other post (it was very long and I do not have a lot of time for internet debating tonight), and I know I said that I was over internet arguing about the election, but I just wanted to point one thing out:

Logical fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

Being in favor of a "free market" does not necessarily mean you are against corporations. Despite Adam Smith's reservations about joint-stock companies, a lot of capitalists have amended there own personal economic philosophies to accept the role of corporations. It also does not necessarily mean you are against bail outs either (although I am). In fact, most capitalists (except anarcho-capitalists) agree that the government should oversee the economy to some extent -- this means doing things like encouraging competition and prevention of monopolies, as Adam Smith suggested, as well as insuring that a 401k investor in Indiana is not liable for the things that Nike does in Indonesia. This is the whole concept behind what a corporation does, and it makes a world of sense to most people....

[close]

Except to those workers in Indonesia and the people that used to have the well paying jobs in America, you dumb fuck.

Corporations are not the friend of the free market. I am really astonished that you could talk about being for the government encouraging competition and preventing monopolies in the same breath in which you give your support to corporations.

Watch the documentary. Nothing presented is controversial, it just shows how they came to be, what the structure of a corporation necessarily leads to, and shows inside factory's, and shit that I'm sure you don't give a fuck about, but if you really want to talk about corporations smugly, you might as well at least learn about them and their effects around the world:

the fact that every company i work for is driven by blind greed is a terrible thing that needs to be addressed. I've seen it time and time again where C level managers (CEO, CFO, CIO, etc...) come in and then are only at the company for maybe 5 years and in that time all they do is get it ready for selling by doing things like laying off the employees. They then sell the company, resulting in more employees getting laid off and them making millions. They will take what are fantasitic companies too work at that provide jobs for thousands and turn them into shitholes for their own gain. No one but maybe 5 people benifit. It should be illegal, we need more regulation because the natural evil nature of corporations is dangerous and will only be less evil if we force them to.

[cheep]

so dont work for a corporation.... or stop bitching.  you do have a choice.  me, i work for a family owned construction company that gives bonuses to every employee, gives amazing benefits, and is honestly interested in what the employees have to say about working for them.  i took a 10000 a year pay cut to work for them, but it was worth it to me.

oh, and palin could get it.

[Sleazy]

actually, i rather take the serverance, find another job quickly for another corporation with 10% pay increase and call it a raise and bonus but unfortunately, a lot of other americans out ther aren't in a booming industry and aren't capable of making lemonaid out of lemons in the same way that i've been able too. just because this situation works out good for me doesn't mean that i don't think it's wrong and needs too be stopped.

your mistaking my desire to fix problems that effect others for bitching about my own life which is not the case. i'm doing just fine and eventhough i'll likely buy a house in the next 8 years and my family could pass onto the side of the wealth line that is going to get more heavy taxation under Obama, i'm still backing him. and eventhough the corporate situation works out well for me i still find it a disgusting practice, i think it needs regulation and i just hope i'm lucky enough to run into one of the C managers one day so that i can punk them out like the little bitches they are.

congratulations on having a good job and the ability that that gives you too ignore the problems of others. i wish it was that easy for me but when discussing politics i tend to be more selfless in the causes i back.

[cheep]

ignore the problems of others?  like what?  explain this. 

[Sleazy]

so dont work for a corporation.... or stop bitching. 

your saying that instead of putting out there that there is this problem with corporations, i should just ignore it. i'm glad that works for you, but for me, i'm going to call foul on things that are unethical, explotive and bad for the economy regardless of if i benifit from them and regardless of if i could ignore them.

you choose to simple say "i've got a job that isn't affected so i don't care and you shouldn't either." i think is a shit attitude too have because one day your job could be gone and you might not find another one that is as good and may end up taking a job at a corporation. you never know where life will lead you. a corporation could buy out your owner tomorrow and then you wouldn't be able to ignore this problem anymore.

[cheep]

im not saying ignore it... im saying DO SOMETHING.  dont just bitch about it and keep working your corporate job.  to use an analogy you might know something about, it would be like skating in nikes and bitching about how they are going to take over skateboarding.  if you really care that much, then make it show in your actions, not just your words.

[Sleazy]

working for a start up is still working for a corporation, your still working for the VC company that's backing it. i guess you might not understand fully how the software industry works, but basically it'd be like saying i'm not going to work for a corporate skate company and then go get on a "start up company." well if the start-up is funded by a big distribution company then what's the difference?

care to explain how me not working for a corporation would help, especially if i'm silent about why? also care to explain how not sharing the shitty practices of corporations with others isn't helping? i had no idea that corporations worked in this way before working in them and if i raise awareness with others who are ignorant of the problems as i was by talking about it in political forums, hows that not helping?

[cheep]

no, go ahead and talk about it... it fine... i really dont feel like getting into a deep political argument here.  all i am asking is why even put yourself in the position if you dislike it so much? 

im also not saying to be silent and not work for them... i was saying if youre vocal, yet still working for them, then you are still helping them attain their goals, which i assume is to make more money for themselves and the shareholders at your expense.  please, keep speaking out if thats what you feel you need to do, but think about how more of your time is spent helping them than working against them

[NickDagger]

Hey that was a cheep-shot.

Get it.


Anyways everyone who can accurately identify and is willing to talk about what corporations are doing to America should. That's doing something in and of itself. Telling someone they should find another job if they aren't happy is childish considering the state of our economy. A gigantic proportion of our well paying jobs have left the country thanks to the corporations Newton is stoked on(sweet stock prices brah!!! yahoo) and gone to countries where they can literally pay workers 3 cents a day to work in WORSE than slavery conditions, to make expensive items to be sold in America to people who now have to work for a corporation, usually a terrible one in the service industry to afford the shitty shit.

Awesome brahhh.

Although I should say that if you're suggesting people start buying from companies who use american/ethical means of production to make their products, then I certainly agree with any popular movement in that direction. Considering the stranglehold corporations have on our government, I don't see much changes happening, but I hope I'm wrong. People like Newt's ironic stokedness on corporations certainly doesn't give me much hope.

[cheep]

people should look out for thier familys and communities first.  if you NEED to work for a corperation to pay your bills and keep food on the table, then do it, and speak out aginst what you feel is wrong... but at the same time I feel that if YOU feel so strongly, then you should make it a goal to eventually get yourself in a position that lets you not have to work for them.


i also feel that we are much to reliant on imports... the downfall of our economy started when we started transforming from a maunfacturing based nation to a service based nation.