Author Topic: war  (Read 3250 times)

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jeremyrandall

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Re: war
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 03:03:53 PM »
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They call what you are talking about a "peace dividend." Unfortunately, that will never come, because the military industrial complex will never stop churning out new excuses to go to war or spend money on new useless war technology. The fucked up thing is that with over half of the U.S. budget going to defense, they still couldn't give proper armor to soldiers in the field, or keep military hospitals to code. Most of it goes to R & D for weapons systems and defense contractors, like the one selfishrep works for. It also should be noted a great deal of America's weath comes from war. Fuck, The United States exists because of a genocidal series of wars. Pretty much every war The U.S. has been in has been primarily motivated by economic concerns.
[close]

Uh what other reason would you have for going to war? Almost every war in human history has been motivated by economic concerns. Spear wielding tribes in Africa go to war with each other for better grazing land for their cattle, it has always been that way.

Even if you broaden the definition to rebellions and revolutions, the key issue is almost always money, or lack thereof for the common man.
[close]
Danger to the security of the nation should really be the only reason to go to war.
 Every war we have gone to has also had other theoretical, non-economic reasons. We had to stop a spreading nation from becoming too powerful and attacking us or taking us over, we had to stop a genocide, we had to free another nation or people from a terrible dictator, terrorists attacked us. Read up on history and you'll figure out the other reasons wars are started or are supposed to be started.
Little tip- Don't try to be dismissive when you don't know shit about what you are talking about.

[close]

i disagree, the United States has never historically fought a war that was not rooted in its own hegemonic interests. we were not concerned with the genocide of the Jews, in fact we sent many back to germany when they showed up on our shores, of course we fought to stop Hitler, but that was in our interests. terrorists? what does that even mean? we go to war with a country that had nothing to do with 911 and that is fighting terrorists? not to mention, it is impossible to win a war on terrorism, also that is simply another war protecting our interests, e.g., oil.
[close]
You are entirely missing my point. I agree with you on all of that stuff, as I stated before. You know what? Just read what you wrote and I wrote. I'm not explaining something this basic, but you misread what I wrote.


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They call what you are talking about a "peace dividend." Unfortunately, that will never come, because the military industrial complex will never stop churning out new excuses to go to war or spend money on new useless war technology. The fucked up thing is that with over half of the U.S. budget going to defense, they still couldn't give proper armor to soldiers in the field, or keep military hospitals to code. Most of it goes to R & D for weapons systems and defense contractors, like the one selfishrep works for. It also should be noted a great deal of America's weath comes from war. Fuck, The United States exists because of a genocidal series of wars. Pretty much every war The U.S. has been in has been primarily motivated by economic concerns.
[close]

Yep. We're completely imperialistic. Except we call it democracy, etc whatever you want to whitewash the fact. Check out the Koch Brothers industries, etc and their exploitation of the global south. As well as every major corporate entity. These assholes keep this shit machine going so we can jack off to megan fox and watch reruns of family guy and buy new sedans/suvs/what have you. Its a straight up pay to play system. Which conflicts with the morals you've been taught, etc. But they have a pill for that! Look into big pharma also helping coin diseases/making up new ones.

I'm pretty much sickened on how these things have come to be and how greed has essentially been legalized in the last 100 years, but its even more worshiped now than ever. Everyone wants to be a celebrity for nothing. So they buy the image and try to act out some jr. high fantasy about status, blah blah. No wonder the world hates the U.S.

http://rayjs.newsvine.com/_news/2010/12/27/5719743-america-in-decline-why-germans-think-were-insane-

Original story appeared on Der Spiegel, but yeah. Read financial news to see how royally fucked this country is. Its sad.
[close]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/13/tea-party-billionaire-koch-brothers
If anybody deserves a bullet in the head for our national security, its the Koch brothers.

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Here's a little lesson for you guys from Poli Sci 101. �The U.S. (and every country for that matter) spends so much on defence because of the nature of the world at the international level. �Relations between countries take place in a state of anarchy, that is, there is no world government to regulate laws and enforce agreements. �As citizens, most of us are deterred from committing crimes because of the threat of punishment from the government, and this simple concept of deterrence and enforcement keeps society running smoothly. �However, since there is no global police force (the U.N. hardly counts), every country's survival rests on its own shrewdness and preparedness. �Relations and negotiations even between allies are taken very seriously because the only way to really enforce things like trade pacts and national boundaries when you are on your own is by show of force. �The bigger show of force you can muster, the more secure you can expect to be. �That is why every country in the world spends so much on defence. �The U.S. spends the most simply because as the only remaining superpower it has a huge target on its back from every country that is trying to move up in the world.


[close]

uh nope. the reason the united states spends so much on defense is because it is a form of subsidizing the private sector and keeping the wheels on the economy. go through the state and defense department documents after ww2. people like dean acheson and harry truman knew that after the war the american economy would be back in the shitter. the only reason the great depression ended in the first place was because we had to ramp up production for a nearly limitless demand of arms and troop support. after the war people in the state department convinced truman that the best way to avoid a depression was through massive defense spending. if we didn't have a war to fight to keep our economy afloat we could at least be constantly preparing for one, which was why the "communist threat" was so convenient and ironic considering that modern defense spending is basically constant war time socialism. this isn't shady conspiratorial belly gazing- president eisenhower, who had the most experience with the military of any modern president, laid it all out in black and white in his farewell address.

did you know that a piece of the b2 bomber is built in every single state? there's a reason for that. if anyone in congress votes against funding what many consider to be a stupid and expensive defense project they will inadvertently cost their constituents jobs. add to that retards like you who will howl that anyone who thinks that 51% of our resources going to defense is too much is a pussy and it is politically unfeasible to stop the growth of the defense industry.

thanks for the lesson though, jackass.
[close]
Looks like cuddle monster took poli sci 102!
[close]


you should be more clear if you want people to understand you. I know you teach high school or something, but that does not mean you are always right or always make sense. You said " We had to stop a spreading nation from becoming too powerful and attacking us or taking us over, we had to stop a genocide, we had to free another nation or people from a terrible dictator, terrorists attacked us." you were arguing that we have non empirical reasons for war, i disagreed with them. i did not misread. plus, your grammar is pretty fucked up on that one, so, yeah, straw men dont win arguments.

HAHAHA...dude you're still completely missing his point.  He said those were "theoretical reasons" as in "not the real reasons" we went to war.  Basically he is saying that the U.S. always comes up with non-economic justifications for war, but behind the scenes everything is really fought over economics.  You agree with him.  Just read closer.

David

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Re: war
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 03:00:11 PM »
It's funny and depressing at times to find the national jingoism creeping into everyday speech and nuance. Living in the states and identifying with an American nationality it gets hard to distance the personal self from the everpresent sense of greater national identity. The overall coverage of war is the absolute worst. Guaranteed that if news outlets reported consistently on the loss of civilian life that's occurred in both Iraq and Afghanistan that this country would have a greater and more vocal opinion about these wars in general.

Also, Iran:        http://mobile.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/13/trita_parsi_jeffrey_goldberg

« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 02:27:13 PM by David »

annoyedwithskating

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Re: war
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 05:28:34 PM »
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They call what you are talking about a "peace dividend." Unfortunately, that will never come, because the military industrial complex will never stop churning out new excuses to go to war or spend money on new useless war technology. The fucked up thing is that with over half of the U.S. budget going to defense, they still couldn't give proper armor to soldiers in the field, or keep military hospitals to code. Most of it goes to R & D for weapons systems and defense contractors, like the one selfishrep works for. It also should be noted a great deal of America's weath comes from war. Fuck, The United States exists because of a genocidal series of wars. Pretty much every war The U.S. has been in has been primarily motivated by economic concerns.
[close]

Uh what other reason would you have for going to war? Almost every war in human history has been motivated by economic concerns. Spear wielding tribes in Africa go to war with each other for better grazing land for their cattle, it has always been that way.

Even if you broaden the definition to rebellions and revolutions, the key issue is almost always money, or lack thereof for the common man.
[close]
Danger to the security of the nation should really be the only reason to go to war.
 Every war we have gone to has also had other theoretical, non-economic reasons. We had to stop a spreading nation from becoming too powerful and attacking us or taking us over, we had to stop a genocide, we had to free another nation or people from a terrible dictator, terrorists attacked us. Read up on history and you'll figure out the other reasons wars are started or are supposed to be started.
Little tip- Don't try to be dismissive when you don't know shit about what you are talking about.

[close]

i disagree, the United States has never historically fought a war that was not rooted in its own hegemonic interests. we were not concerned with the genocide of the Jews, in fact we sent many back to germany when they showed up on our shores, of course we fought to stop Hitler, but that was in our interests. terrorists? what does that even mean? we go to war with a country that had nothing to do with 911 and that is fighting terrorists? not to mention, it is impossible to win a war on terrorism, also that is simply another war protecting our interests, e.g., oil.
[close]
You are entirely missing my point. I agree with you on all of that stuff, as I stated before. You know what? Just read what you wrote and I wrote. I'm not explaining something this basic, but you misread what I wrote.


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They call what you are talking about a "peace dividend." Unfortunately, that will never come, because the military industrial complex will never stop churning out new excuses to go to war or spend money on new useless war technology. The fucked up thing is that with over half of the U.S. budget going to defense, they still couldn't give proper armor to soldiers in the field, or keep military hospitals to code. Most of it goes to R & D for weapons systems and defense contractors, like the one selfishrep works for. It also should be noted a great deal of America's weath comes from war. Fuck, The United States exists because of a genocidal series of wars. Pretty much every war The U.S. has been in has been primarily motivated by economic concerns.
[close]

Yep. We're completely imperialistic. Except we call it democracy, etc whatever you want to whitewash the fact. Check out the Koch Brothers industries, etc and their exploitation of the global south. As well as every major corporate entity. These assholes keep this shit machine going so we can jack off to megan fox and watch reruns of family guy and buy new sedans/suvs/what have you. Its a straight up pay to play system. Which conflicts with the morals you've been taught, etc. But they have a pill for that! Look into big pharma also helping coin diseases/making up new ones.

I'm pretty much sickened on how these things have come to be and how greed has essentially been legalized in the last 100 years, but its even more worshiped now than ever. Everyone wants to be a celebrity for nothing. So they buy the image and try to act out some jr. high fantasy about status, blah blah. No wonder the world hates the U.S.

http://rayjs.newsvine.com/_news/2010/12/27/5719743-america-in-decline-why-germans-think-were-insane-

Original story appeared on Der Spiegel, but yeah. Read financial news to see how royally fucked this country is. Its sad.
[close]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/13/tea-party-billionaire-koch-brothers
If anybody deserves a bullet in the head for our national security, its the Koch brothers.

Expand Quote
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Here's a little lesson for you guys from Poli Sci 101. �The U.S. (and every country for that matter) spends so much on defence because of the nature of the world at the international level. �Relations between countries take place in a state of anarchy, that is, there is no world government to regulate laws and enforce agreements. �As citizens, most of us are deterred from committing crimes because of the threat of punishment from the government, and this simple concept of deterrence and enforcement keeps society running smoothly. �However, since there is no global police force (the U.N. hardly counts), every country's survival rests on its own shrewdness and preparedness. �Relations and negotiations even between allies are taken very seriously because the only way to really enforce things like trade pacts and national boundaries when you are on your own is by show of force. �The bigger show of force you can muster, the more secure you can expect to be. �That is why every country in the world spends so much on defence. �The U.S. spends the most simply because as the only remaining superpower it has a huge target on its back from every country that is trying to move up in the world.


[close]

uh nope. the reason the united states spends so much on defense is because it is a form of subsidizing the private sector and keeping the wheels on the economy. go through the state and defense department documents after ww2. people like dean acheson and harry truman knew that after the war the american economy would be back in the shitter. the only reason the great depression ended in the first place was because we had to ramp up production for a nearly limitless demand of arms and troop support. after the war people in the state department convinced truman that the best way to avoid a depression was through massive defense spending. if we didn't have a war to fight to keep our economy afloat we could at least be constantly preparing for one, which was why the "communist threat" was so convenient and ironic considering that modern defense spending is basically constant war time socialism. this isn't shady conspiratorial belly gazing- president eisenhower, who had the most experience with the military of any modern president, laid it all out in black and white in his farewell address.

did you know that a piece of the b2 bomber is built in every single state? there's a reason for that. if anyone in congress votes against funding what many consider to be a stupid and expensive defense project they will inadvertently cost their constituents jobs. add to that retards like you who will howl that anyone who thinks that 51% of our resources going to defense is too much is a pussy and it is politically unfeasible to stop the growth of the defense industry.

thanks for the lesson though, jackass.
[close]
Looks like cuddle monster took poli sci 102!
[close]


you should be more clear if you want people to understand you. I know you teach high school or something, but that does not mean you are always right or always make sense. You said " We had to stop a spreading nation from becoming too powerful and attacking us or taking us over, we had to stop a genocide, we had to free another nation or people from a terrible dictator, terrorists attacked us." you were arguing that we have non empirical reasons for war, i disagreed with them. i did not misread. plus, your grammar is pretty fucked up on that one, so, yeah, straw men dont win arguments.
[close]

HAHAHA...dude you're still completely missing his point.  He said those were "theoretical reasons" as in "not the real reasons" we went to war.  Basically he is saying that the U.S. always comes up with non-economic justifications for war, but behind the scenes everything is really fought over economics.  You agree with him.  Just read closer.


HAHAHAHA... dude, fuck you. I understood his point, the problem was that he wasnt clear. I think his wanna be elitist attitude gets on my nerves as well.

Beer Keg Peg Leg

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Re: war
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 05:35:39 PM »
Did you guys know that Tolstoy's War and Peace was originally titled War, What is it Good For?

annoyedwithskating

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Re: war
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 05:42:09 PM »
i heard it had a preface by Elaine Benice.

TheFifthColumn

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Re: war
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 06:33:48 PM »
The fucked up thing is that with over half of the U.S. budget going to defense, they still couldn't give proper armor to soldiers in the field, or keep military hospitals to code.

51% of our resources [go] to defense

Not to be a dick, but you'll have to forgive me for believing in the CBO, the Office of Management and Budget, Wikipedia and a bunch of other sources as opposed to your unsubstantiated claims:









Where are you guys getting this "over half" stuff?  

« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 06:50:32 PM by TheFifthColumn »

few123456789

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Re: war
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 07:44:44 PM »
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The fucked up thing is that with over half of the U.S. budget going to defense, they still couldn't give proper armor to soldiers in the field, or keep military hospitals to code.
[close]

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51% of our resources [go] to defense
[close]

Not to be a dick, but you'll have to forgive me for believing in the CBO, the Office of Management and Budget, Wikipedia and a bunch of other sources as opposed to your unsubstantiated claims:









Where are you guys getting this "over half" stuff?  



If you want to believe something hard enough you ignore the facts.  It's called being a Democrat or what is labeled as "liberal" nowadays.

CUDDLEMONSTER

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Re: war
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 08:15:02 PM »
i got my figures mixed up. if you take global defense spending the united states spends about half of the global total. in other words we spend the same on our defense as all the other countries of the world combined. are you saying that's a sane policy or did you just want to be nit-picky jackoff?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 08:20:25 PM by CUDDLEMONSTER »

TheFifthColumn

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Re: war
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 08:35:56 PM »
Relax Cuddlemonster, I even preceded my comment with "not to be a dick" so I'm neither trying to nit pick or jack off - I just want to understand where this discrepancy comes from. 

And no this is definitely not a sane policy.  It's probably the most insane policy we have going on right now.  I think a lot of government programs should be reduced, but none more so than defense spending.  We live in a unipolar world - who's going to invade us?

few123456789

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Re: war
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 08:42:20 PM »

Strange Firefighter

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Re: war
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2011, 02:42:23 AM »
War...huh...yeah. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

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Re: war
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2011, 03:42:27 AM »


wars should be faught in video games... haha

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Re: war
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2011, 03:35:06 PM »



CUDDLEMONSTER

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Re: war
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2011, 03:53:43 PM »
War...huh...yeah. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.


YOU ARE LIKE THE EIGHTH FUCKING PERSON TO MAKE THAT JOKE IN THIS THREAD

David

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Re: war
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2011, 01:41:38 PM »
Thought I'd just dump a bunch of links and videos here...


John Pilger makes documentaries...



Ken Kesey not on acid...i think...





WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?


Drones in Pakistan





Documentary



Another documentary...



W.


'The "perpetual war" between Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia...'

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/jun/14/1984-whats-another-year/

"just this moment it had been announced that Oceania was not after all at war with Eurasia. Oceania was at war with Eastasia."
http://www.liferesearchuniversal.com/1984-17.html


 :P :P




« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 02:30:29 PM by David »

Ronald Wilson Reagan

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Re: war
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2011, 06:55:46 PM »
Those pie charts you show are flawed and intentionally made to distract. It is a government made chart, so it spreads with relative ease, because why shouldn't we trust the government? A huge chunk of that shows things like social security, which is a trust, which collects from a seperate base and is not discretionary to congress's budget. Also, expenses from past military spending, such as interest on the national debt and the continuing cost of many veteran's benefits which actually are not part of the official military budget increases with increased war action. On top of this, the only thing that get's counted in the national The budget has shrunken a little, or at least in comparison to other spending and it actually now makes up about 48% of the budget, or about $1.4 trillion.
I got it from a pie chart produced by the war resisters (sic, ya know.. "sisters?") league. Here is one place to kind of access it:
http://www.warresisters.org/federalpiechart
It talks about methodology and everything in there if you have any questions on it. It's interesting, because the points they make are true, and do actually translate to the charts you show. Question it as you will, but I stand by my first statement (generally, as apparently this year it is about 48% instead of 51%)
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Belligerent Irish Cop

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Re: war
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2011, 07:08:09 PM »
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

- U.S. Marine Major General Smedley D. Butler

The above quotes are pretty shocking to people who believe that America really is this righteous force in the world. We are just as shitty as the Russians and all the other imperialist powers that have come and gone over human history. The big difference these days is that we generally try to justify wars, either through blatant lies (Iraq) or by attacking strawmen in places we have a vested interest in (the Taliban in Afghanistan).

Every human war in history has been fought because someone sought to get rich from it. Direct taxation, "tribute", loot and plunder, trade agreements, these are all multi-billion dollar affairs. We are in Afghanistan because we've been fucking around there since 1979, and 9/11 finally provided an excuse to invade. UNOCAL and other major oil companies have been working for 20 years to set up American oil pipelines connected Tajikstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India - we're there for big business. And people are gullible and stupid enough to sign up and die so fat white guys in Washington can get rich.


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Re: war
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »
dixiecrat?
Are you a kook? If you would say this, the answer is “YES”
I quit skating for a time due to piling out

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Re: war
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2011, 07:01:53 AM »
N. Korea on Rocketboom



Comic book history w/tunes...




Korean war




 


Beeda Weeda

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Re: war
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2011, 09:05:39 AM »
war seems to stimulate the economy, I like how America shows other countries how they should run themselves and be perfect like america,

David

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Re: war
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2011, 11:47:39 AM »
war does stimulate the economy, but that can be a bad thing when a good chunk of the workforce is dependent on it. then you have lobbyists influencing the government to perpetuate wartime policies. eisenhower warned people about this in his farewell address.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 05:11:43 PM by David »

David

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Re: war
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2011, 11:06:45 AM »
the US military is the single largest consumer of energy in the world.'

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/29925

brycickle

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Re: war
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2011, 02:31:43 PM »
war seems to stimulate the economy, I like how America shows other countries how they should run themselves and be perfect like america,
We've got Coca-Cola and Budweiser.  Fuck what the rest of the world thinks.

/sarcasm

 You and the D00D have turned this thread into a horrible head-on-collision between a short bus full of regular kids and a van full of paraplegics.



David

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Re: war
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2011, 11:47:49 AM »
the US is conducting more drone attacks in Pakistan.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2011/04/syria-beefs-up-security-for-protests-mccain-visits-libya-rebels.html

"Pakistani officials said 25 people died in a drone strike in North Waziristan, an area with heavy al-Qaeda and Taliban activity. Officials said five women and four children who were in a home near the targeted compound were also killed."

And now drones in Libya, too

http://www.euronews.net/2011/04/23/us-launches-first-drone-strike-in-libya/

David

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Re: war
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2011, 09:53:04 AM »
US troops will leave Iraq by the end of the year, and there will be no military bases left behind after negotiations on the issue with Iraqi president Nouri-Al Maliki came to a close.

"Today I can report that, as promised, the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year. After nearly nine years, America's war in Iraq will be over,"

The Pentagon had wanted the bases to help counter growing Iranian influence in the Middle East. Just a few years ago, the US had plans for leaving behind four large bases but, in the face of Iraqi resistance, this plan had to be scaled down this year to a force of 10,000. But even this proved too much for the Iraqis.

John McCain... said: "Today marks a harmful and sad setback for the United States in the world. I respectfully disagree with the president: this decision will be viewed as a strategic victory for our enemies in the Middle East, especially the Iranian regime, which has worked relentlessly to ensure a full withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq."

'It will be a major logistical exercise, moving not only the remaining 39,000 US troops but mountains of equipment from bases that are the size of small American suburbs, complete with coffee-shops, bowling alleys and cinemas.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/iraq-rejects-us-plea-bases
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 05:13:02 PM by David »