Thinking about joining the armed forces

[weedpop]

If you think being around death constantly doesn't make it less impactful, well, you obviously haven't been around it very much. Nobody is mentally strong enough to insulate their psyche from the effects of war, which is a scenario that is in most cases more horrible and emotionally deadening than any civilian can imagine. It's not an "easy paycheck" as you so eloquently put it Kab, and your opinions on this matter make you sound like a sheltered, self-righteous and infantile little troll of a human, much like all of your other posts, incidentally.

On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.

[grimcity]

I just deleted a whole lot of shit that I was gonna post, but I'll just say back in '94 I tried to get into the Army after 2 1/2 years of an ROTC like program housed under the Explorer Scouts (giving me a bump to PFC) and not getting in just fucked with me soooo bad. I had a documented back injury but I never brought it up, and it never came up until the last/worst possible second. I used to kick ass at all the PT shit, I really just wanted to serve... never once thought about killing another person.

I wound up going to college, doing the private sector IT thing for a number of years, and now get to serve my state during my day job and do emergency communications for our Governor's office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (GOHSEP, civilian employee).

I had actually looked at joining the Reserves or the Guard last year, but it would have put a major strain on the office I work for and my wife wasn't really feeling it. Not to mention, the job I was looking at would have had me in training for way too long. I dunno, I just always appreciated the Army but not in terms of machismo or because of any bloodlust.

Also, I know HATE and he's only tried to stab me in the face four or maybe five times the last weekend we hung out. Seriously though, he's not exactly your image of conformity, nor is he a meathead or anything like that.

Just don't join the Marines. Those haircuts are permanent.

[dlx111]

Little too much hate talk to get some clear points in here.

Anyway my dad was in Desert Storm as a medic and also a mechanic later on. He was in Kuwait and basically never saw "combat" but was on the line fixing, working, blah blah. While mentally he isnt messed up, his hearing got wrecked from being close to the shelling of a city, that and hes had some minute health affects from the drugs they tried and did use on him and the rest of the guinea pigs. Thank god he never had the, i cnat recall the real bad pill or watever they were testing, he got out of it somehow. Point being there are other effects to weigh other than just the toll of death, war, and mental stuff.

My two friends also recruited to the national guard and are going into mechanic units and stuff like that, which is ironic becus they joined primarily becus school wasnt shapin up for them and i dont think they see the possibility of being sent over like my dad wa. He started as national guard.

Just because ur not aiming for combat doesnt mean u wont see it. In the armys eye ur just another willing body.
Needless to say, i wont be following in my dads steps, but if i were to sugest anything i would say look into coast guard or even, if u live by the water, parks or wildlife. In florida my dads friend works for the state patrolling the rivers and coast on the states gas money in their boats... that was my dads oher choice before he stupidly joined up.

Dont make any hasty decisions.

[cringe.]

If you think being around death constantly doesn't make it less impactful, well, you obviously haven't been around it very much. Nobody is mentally strong enough to insulate their psyche from the effects of war, which is a scenario that is in most cases more horrible and emotionally deadening than any civilian can imagine. It's not an "easy paycheck" as you so eloquently put it Kab, and your opinions on this matter make you sound like a sheltered, self-righteous and infantile little troll of a human, much like all of your other posts, incidentally.

On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.

really good post.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Do you like PTSD and a higher likelyhood of unemployment than the general population? If so, join the armed forces. If not, you might want to consider something else. And if you didn't like your teachers calling home when you didn't do your homework, wait until you see what a drill sargent does when you fuck up.

Sleazy- the op is saying he is considering joining the armed forces. There is nothing wrong with reminding him of the fact that every war the U.S. has been in since 1865 has related to imperialism, and that we just got out of one war for oil and are about to jump into another one. The odds are very high that if he does see combat, it will be for corporate profit, not the security of the nation. That is a legitimate thing to consider when considering signing your life away. It may be noble to die in defense of your country, but it definitely isn't to die in defense of profits, and he might be doing that.
And your argument only flies with already enlisted soldiers. Sure, a guy who enlisted in 2000 can say "I don't choose the wars, I just fight them" to defend his service in Iraq, but if you are joining a volunteer army after the war has been declared or when the writing on the wall is there that it will happen, then you ARE choosing the war. You are saying "You know that mission you are going on to take over a nation to steal its resources? I want in."
Its like the old saying goes: "What if they held a war, and nobody came?" Obviously that will never happen, but it illustrates the point that when you join the armed forces, you are supporting the war machine, because they can't do it without willing soldiers.

[Cthulhu!]

[brycickle]

 Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

[weedpop]

I think statistically the rate of unemployment is higher amongst veterans, but those numbers are skewed by people with severe deformities or psychological issues from being in combat, which obviously make it harder to fit back into the workforce.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

yeah, higher rate of unemployment. I wouldn't say that's a skewed statistic in that being in war does that, and if he joins that could be him. You definitely can pick up skills, though from what I hear a lot of people don't end up getting the training recruiters often promise.

[few123456789]

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  Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

[close]

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

I do.  I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business.  Plumbing is an example.  Or he could end up as a general contractor.  You do not need college for either.

Do you know what a capital investment implies?

Trying to help the op...

[Sleazy]

On the other hand: Sleazy, as someone who seems to understand the real causes and implications of warfare, you need to take a step back and try to apply some logic to the bullshit, kneejerk american-isms that you're spouting. How are they "serving our country" when the conflict being fought creates nothing but death, destruction and more ill will towards America while lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers and military contractors? It's already been established in this thread that many people sign up for military service either because they have no other opportunities and are looking to gain some sort of personal advantage or because they are actually attracted by the idea of killing. There's nothing noble about either of these motives, and without the "self-defense" justification, there certainly isn't anything noble about the wars they're fighting. The "what if we were invaded tomorrow" idea is clearly a straw man argument as you yourself admitted that the U.S. military has pretty much exclusively been engaged in imperialist ventures since WWII. Valorizing the bravery and "noble sacrifice" of the soldier regardless of the conditions under which he is fighting is only one cognitive dissonance filled step away from valorizing warfare for the sake of warfare.

there's nothing kneekjerk about my feelings, so your pejorative is misplaced. my feeling is simply that holding enlisted men accountable for the types of conflicts we get in is misplaced. if you feel that we are in the wrong conflicts then it's the civilians that are the problem not the people who enlist. and i find it odd that you reference nationalism in your post but then convieniently ignore it when you are talking about the nobility of why people serve. sure there are people who don't have respectful motivations but this country is full of people who actually want to serve, people with familys that are millitary, etc... i don't see how someone who has no other options (or at least feels that way) or that comes from a patriotic, nationlistic background or is a 3rd generation enlisted man is open for scrutiny. but that's just my position because I don't like feeling like a judgemental asshole, others see it differently.

and then my previous point was slightly exagerated because i'd argue that two recent conflict at least started with non-imperialist goals, afganistan and lybia. you got no respect for people who enlisted wanting to go to afganistan after 911 or people who help oust gaddafi? whats the problem with that motivator? obviously, nobility could be found if you looked even if it isn't the dominate motivator so it's hard to take serious positions that ignore that obvious fact.

there are clearly exceptions going both ways and i don't try to deny that war hungry meat heads exist.

my point instead is that i don't focus on the attrocities of war as war is part of the human condition and it is what it always has been and what it will always be. it's obviously a horrible and unavoidable part of human existence. if we want to try and decrease the scope of war i feel there are much better places to put that energy than taking cheap shots at enlisted men on the internet which is all this thread trolls are accomplishing. if you really feel so strongly then do like i did and get out in the real world and do something about it. join or start an organization, organize or participate in protest, ect... we live in a democracy (or oligarchy from your point of view) and we can sway things if we organize. but that hasn't happened. it's us, not the service men, that are the ones that are unable to stop the war machine. they are just the ones that sign up to experience the attrocities first hand which as you are aware, is not an enjoyable experience for the majority of them.

i guess mostly i'm just curious if it's internet courage that people are showing here or if people would actually show this kind of disrespect to a persons face. like would you guys actually act like a dick to hate in person if you met him at a skatepark? that just seems fucked to me. it's the same kind of misplaced, dick move that protestors at abortion clinics are pulling.

[layzieyez]

You want to hear the funniest part about you posting this image?

Brian Brannon, the lead singer of that band is a United States Navy Reservist.  He is a chief (E-7).  He has the same rating (MOS) that I have.  I am a mass communication specialist (public affairs/photojournalist).  Not everyone is an ignorant ass (even if those individuals exist).  Some of us are pretty damned cool and I am so proud to be a part of the same organization as that man. 

Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.  My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.

I rose up the ranks in the navy faster than most people experience because I was college educated going enlisted (I didn't want to obligate myself to 10 years if I joined as an officer).  After bootcamp, I was promoted to E-4 since I graduated from my specialty school at the top of my class as the honor grad, and I made E-5 six months after being promoted to E-4 after scoring so high on my advancement exam.  So, in less than a year in the fleet, I was the equivalent of a sergeant.

I never drank the kool aid and I have consistently taken on some of the most difficult jobs working solo where the navy would have needed at least 3-5 sailors to achieve the amount of efficiency and success at those jobs.  I have more than earned my pay and then some.

Because I am so driven, the navy didn't blink at spending over $50,000 on making me better at what I do with additional schooling.  The double edge sword is since I am so capable, I know I don't need to stay in the navy to be successful.  I value the health of my wife and kids (mental and physical) and my time too much to spend my time away from them anymore.  It is too much to ask of them to deal with the stress of my absence.  I will take all the skills and drive that I have and work at what I love doing exactly my way instead of how someone ranking above me dictates.

Your mileage will vary with military service.  I made the most of the opportunity.  If you choose to do it, don't waste it.  Don't be a waste of taxpayer money.  I have an absolute hate for those individuals who aren't earning their pay and thankfully, they are getting cut from the ranks.

I hope my testimonial helps in your decision making.

[brycickle]

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  Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

[close]

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

[close]

I do.  I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business.  Plumbing is an example.  Or he could end up as a general contractor.  You do not need college for either.

Do you know what a capital investment implies?

Trying to help the op...

So you're telling me that you could start a business without investing any money in it? Show me your business model because I'm fucking in!!

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.

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  Think of something entrepreneurial that doesn't require a monetary capital investment.

[close]

I don't think you understand what the word entrepreneurial means.

[close]

I do.  I meant a trade of some sort besides college where you eventually have your own business.  Plumbing is an example.  Or he could end up as a general contractor.  You do not need college for either.

Do you know what a capital investment implies?

Trying to help the op...

[close]

So you're telling me that you could start a business without investing any money in it? Show me your business model because I'm fucking in!!

hahaha.
Oh, and if you want to be a certified contractor or plumber you do need job training, which is intellectual capital.
If he runs the business, eventually he'll need either a secretary or workers, which is human capital.
He's not going to be walking into houses and using his bare hands to unclog toilets so he'll need tools, which are also a form of capital.
Let's also not forget the monetary opportunity cost of the start of the business, where you make little money and can't really work another job to supplement income as you get your business going and build a customer base.
I swear to god in another recent thread this fucking moron claimed nobody but him understands economics.
Few plays this "above slap" act and always fails.
Its hillarious.

[Sleazy]

Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.?  My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.

pretty god damn noble if you ask me.

looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.

go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.

Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.

i'm pretty sure that in this imaginary utopia we'd get invaded. your a history teacher, point to one example in history of this? i'm not saying i don't feel the vibe



i'm just saying it's fantasy.

it's like vegiterians getting pissed at meat eaters. there's two problems with that. one, people are going to still choose to eat meat so get over yourself. two, even if everyone quit, we'd still kill animals due to limited resources. it's again a fantasy that strives for an imaginary utopian goal that is unachievable. i'm not saying these ideas don't have good natured premises, it's just they ignore the practicle realities of the world we live in and i feel we'd be better served trying to make sure that animals get the best quailty of life available and that wars are fought for good reasons than trying to strive for unachievable perfection. you might sell cage free to the masses, you won't sell tofu.

[Tufty]

 "Nationalism is the last shelter of the fraudsters."


 On other news... If they want to serve their country they should organise a revolution against governments and the capital...

 What patriotism stands for??? Have you ever thought??? What the fuck patriotism means when politicians spit it out??? For me the most patriotic thing would be a class war and not a war about oil or a war to be in control of another country (Libya). Wars America does are wars about profit. NO NO my friend its not only the oil or power. Its also stealing tax payer money and giving them to their friends, the Industrialists of war for weapons and other shit. And they not only steal their money but also their kids' lives by sending them to war and disillusioning them that they serve the country while they are serving THE CAPITAL.

[Truancy]

HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.

[dlx111]

wanted to point out also that if your unsure at all go talk to someone who has seen firsthand the senseless killings, violence, or civilian deaths and talk to the ones who have had their lives changed because of it. Theres nothing gonna change a stubborn person more than either a firsthand experience or a heart to heart with someone who has had one.

Also take a look at the case of the guy who leaked the apache civilian mess in afghan or iraq and is now going to rot in prison or (i dont think itll go over) be executed for standing up and wanting the public to see the ineffectiveness and sloppy job that his own men were witnessing and/or a part of.

Sidenote- I dont know about any of you, and i dont mean to stir up hate, but does anyone else not share the whole "thank your for your service, thanks for serving our country, blah blah" feeling?
I mean dont misquote me, i am happy that men and women are getting home safe and were not killed, but for everyone 1 that comes home safe there has to be atleast 2 or 3 that've had their lives changed from wounds or something. The whole parade thing goes hand in hand also, i really dont FEEL any safer for having these soldiers fight for oil or regime changes, or experience any more FREEDOM for having them fight. In my opinion, the average cop is doing more to protect me and my family by keeping drug addicts away from the public or drunk drivers off the road. The police deserve more parades than any military imo.

I just feel like the whole SERVE your country feeling doesnt and shouldnt be attached to a war that is an AGGRESSIVE, preemptive war. Peoples idea of what a "noble" war, not there is really is one, has been dramatically changed.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.?  My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.

[close]

pretty god damn noble if you ask me.

looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.

go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.

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Sleazy, if soldiers aren't responsible for our wars, then what would happen if all soldiers refused to fight? According to you, the war would go on. I tend to think without soldiers there is no war, as the Cheneys of the world won't actually fight themselves. If you sign up for the armed forces you are volunteering to be a pawn in an immoral game. There is no other way to look at it, unless you are a dishonest recruiter.
Any response to that or are you going to keep pretending that nobody has pointed out that volunteering to join a war while it is happening or during the saber rattling leading up to it is supporting the war.

[close]

i'm pretty sure that in this imaginary utopia we'd get invaded. your a history teacher, point to one example in history of this? i'm not saying i don't feel the vibe



i'm just saying it's fantasy.

it's like vegiterians getting pissed at meat eaters. there's two problems with that. one, people are going to still choose to eat meat so get over yourself. two, even if everyone quit, we'd still kill animals due to limited resources. it's again a fantasy that strives for an imaginary utopian goal that is unachievable. i'm not saying these ideas don't have good natured premises, it's just they ignore the practicle realities of the world we live in and i feel we'd be better served trying to make sure that animals get the best quailty of life available and that wars are fought for good reasons than trying to strive for unachievable perfection. you might sell cage free to the masses, you won't sell tofu.

You are a fucking idiot and that's clearly a strawman. The argument at the beginning was are people who volunteer for the army responsible for their role in unjust wars. My answer was yes, if they know what actions are taking place. I extended the metaphor to point out that soldiers do play a vital role in war, because without them, there would be no ability to fight the wars.
But in terms of your apparent argument that drawing down our military would do any sort of harm- Do you seriously think that Iraq, Afghanistan, our interventions in South America, or our interventions in South East Asia have made us safer? That's all we've done with the military over the past 50 years. That's what they recruit for. Not because we don't have enough soldiers to guard our borders. We have far more than enough for that.
 How did Japan do after they dismantled their imperial army? How about Germany? Both seem to be fine and engaged in far less wars then they used to.
What about nations without imperial interests in the first place? Switzerland is the classic example. Hitler didn't even try to invade them in World War II and that was fucking Hitler! They had an army, but its role was nothing like the armed forces we have now. We need something more like that.
 The actions of our armed forces in this imperialist mode have done nothing but made us less safe. There is no other logical conclusion. The media is owned by the military industrial complex and will give you all these "dulce decorum est pro patria mori" lies about our military actions, but its imperialist bullshit at this point, no better than any other imperial army in history. Oh, and its bankrupting us too, so that's fucking awesome.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Oh, and joining an imperial army for money or benefits isn't noble, it just means that if somebody pays you enough, you'll become a killer.

[oyolar]

The answer is simple kill everyone all over the planet all at once problem solved.

For once, I agree with you.

[few123456789]

Why does reading this thread make me glad most here are not enlisted?

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

I'm not sure. What exactly are you implying?

[weedpop]

I guess he means we're not "brave" or "patriotic" enough, something like that.

Sleazy, you're attributing a bunch of things to me that I never even said. I never directly insulted or criticized individual servicemen for their choices; I actually have a lot of sympathy for those people who are forced into service due to lack of opportunity, or through family pressure or misguided patriotism. I can totally understand why people would do that, and I know that not everyone shares my beliefs. Rejecting the party line on "supporting the troops" is not always about being an asshole, it's about being rational. You're insisting that holding anything but a romanticized, ultra-positive view of military service is an insult to the troops, but HATE evidently feels the exact opposite as someone who should know better than most about the depraved pointlessness of recent military conflicts.

Lazyiez should feel proud about lifting his family out of poverty and improving himself in the process, but that is only one facet of military service; the other is to go out and kill or be killed in an imperialistic chess match that benefits nobody but the power elite of the victorious party. That is the uncomfortable truth that people will always attempt to cover up with rose-tinted, nationalist rhetoric, and I'm not going to ignore it just because you think it might hurt some people's feelings.

[Truancy]

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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.

[close]

I am not familiar with the article you're talking about. �Link?

It was posted at the beginning of this thread.

[dlx111]

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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.

[close]

I am not familiar with the article you're talking about.  Link?


dlx111- you're hitting nothing but net.  I am extremely uncomfortable with the over-gratitude.  I mean, I don't tell people to shut up or anything, that would be stupid and counterproductive.  I already feel weird hearing it and why should I knock someone for thinking they're doing a nice thing.  But yes, it IS overdone and I feel that there are a lot of soldiers that abuse it too- I've even seen military spouses get pissed off when a business doesn't offer a military discount.  That blows my mind.  The main reason why it's so awkward is that I am not fighting for any American's freedom.  I am fighting for fucking Afghanistan's and that kills me.  I have zero personal interest vested in the well being of that country.  I don't care if they move into the 21st century or the 11th century- they don't even care.  I don't like seeing schools built over there that are immediately taken over by the Taliban, I don't care to teach their military anything and I don't really care what their form of government is.  We aren't fighting terrorism, we're trying to change a culture and I just disagree with that.  If you're going to fight a war- it should be to earn something, right?  Well, we don't even have a hand in the Aynak mine that was recently discovered that the Afghans don't have the means to mine (China took that one somehow and I am still not exactly clear on how they did it.)  I've been deployed for nearly half the 9 years I've been in and it hasn't done a single good thing for my country.  

I am going to disagree with you (sorta) on one point, dlx111.  It's walking on thin ice to ask people about death they've experienced.  If it comes up, that is ok, but to outright ask someone is a little weird.  You don't know how that person experienced it and it's just sort of impolite because that person may have internalized a lot.  I've never personally killed someone and while I have had friends who have died, I've never personally seen one their bodies.  I've seen a few others and while I wouldn't say they "haunt" me or anything, it's still not a topic that is great to talk about.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, I am just saying it's dicey and it should be done in a polite way.  I have a pretty thick skin and could give a shit what the majority of people think about me, but that's not always the case for others.

ya, lol, i was in no way suggesting going up to someone and asking if theyve killed someone. that would be disrespectful and all sorts. And i actually rad about that mine thing, unbelievably, in Forbes magazine! They were talking about it like it was some great business opportunity, and were literally ADVOCATING taking these peoples land, giving them below minimal pay for working in ridiculous conditions, and on top of that were acting like it was just another investment!! That story just blew mind as far as outright disrespect for a people whose country your trying to help and bring freedom to, and the only thing you can think of is STRIPPING THEIR LAND OF RESOURCES! Heres an idea, how bout let an afghan entrepreneur start a company with the help of maybe some caring American business men, and let the people see what kind of potential a blooming country can have!

In my opinion, one of the only ways to get some real progress over there, is for passionate individuals to show those people dignity and love and help them to make a living for themselves.

[Paper Crane]

[Tale Crab]

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Don't judge me for what I chose to do for a decade of my life because I am proud I paid back what I thought I owed my country as a naturalized citizen of the USA.?  My family lived well below the poverty level in the Philippines and moving to the US has allowed me many opportunities including a college education.

[close]

pretty god damn noble if you ask me.

looking forward to seeing the asshole perspective on this one. come on guys, be a dick to this layzieyez. he had the nerve to risk his life to try and give something back to the country that provided his family an opportunity to a better life. how dare he.

go ahead and tell hate what a piece of shit he is for risking his life overseas in afghanistan. it's not like they posed a national security threat to us by allowing terrorist to kill thousands in NY. what a scum bag.

I must admit I feel sincerely sorry for anyone viewing it this way. I don't wish to look down on anyone, it just makes me feel sorry.
Clearly you have been brought up in culture that embraces and glorifies these efforts, rather than you respecting them as a result of your own consideration. I don't see it much different than North Koreans worshipping their almighty leader only because that is what they are being taught all their lives, only the scale of things is different.
Living halfway across the world, while our culture deeply respects the efforts of our very few veterans still standing, the desire to have more is nonexistent.

Both of my grandfathers were closely affected by the WWII, one having to flee his home at a young age never to return, and the other fighting the war at my age. Neither of them ever said a single word of those times, not to us, not to their children, not even to their spouses. The one who fought the war asked my father, if he ever in is old age would begin telling stories of those times, to smash him out cold.

I for one don't understand the references to paying your debt to a country by fighting a war that clearly has no threat to its livelyhood or safety. At best it's to calm down the deliberately built paranoia that "they're coming", or to underline the self-acclaimed superiority.

[steve]

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HATE, can you please give some insight regarding the call of apathy article posted at the beginning of the article? I saw it on reddit and really wanted to ask you about it.

[close]

I am not familiar with the article you're talking about.  Link?


dlx111- you're hitting nothing but net.  I am extremely uncomfortable with the over-gratitude.  I mean, I don't tell people to shut up or anything, that would be stupid and counterproductive.  I already feel weird hearing it and why should I knock someone for thinking they're doing a nice thing.  But yes, it IS overdone and I feel that there are a lot of soldiers that abuse it too- I've even seen military spouses get pissed off when a business doesn't offer a military discount.  That blows my mind.  The main reason why it's so awkward is that I am not fighting for any American's freedom.  I am fighting for fucking Afghanistan's and that kills me.  I have zero personal interest vested in the well being of that country.  I don't care if they move into the 21st century or the 11th century- they don't even care.  I don't like seeing schools built over there that are immediately taken over by the Taliban, I don't care to teach their military anything and I don't really care what their form of government is.  We aren't fighting terrorism, we're trying to change a culture and I just disagree with that.  If you're going to fight a war- it should be to earn something, right?  Well, we don't even have a hand in the Aynak mine that was recently discovered that the Afghans don't have the means to mine (China took that one somehow and I am still not exactly clear on how they did it.)  I've been deployed for nearly half the 9 years I've been in and it hasn't done a single good thing for my country.  

I am going to disagree with you (sorta) on one point, dlx111.  It's walking on thin ice to ask people about death they've experienced.  If it comes up, that is ok, but to outright ask someone is a little weird.  You don't know how that person experienced it and it's just sort of impolite because that person may have internalized a lot.  I've never personally killed someone and while I have had friends who have died, I've never personally seen one their bodies.  I've seen a few others and while I wouldn't say they "haunt" me or anything, it's still not a topic that is great to talk about.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, I am just saying it's dicey and it should be done in a polite way.  I have a pretty thick skin and could give a shit what the majority of people think about me, but that's not always the case for others.

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ya, lol, i was in no way suggesting going up to someone and asking if theyve killed someone. that would be disrespectful and all sorts. And i actually rad about that mine thing, unbelievably, in Forbes magazine! They were talking about it like it was some great business opportunity, and were literally ADVOCATING taking these peoples land, giving them below minimal pay for working in ridiculous conditions, and on top of that were acting like it was just another investment!! That story just blew mind as far as outright disrespect for a people whose country your trying to help and bring freedom to, and the only thing you can think of is STRIPPING THEIR LAND OF RESOURCES! Heres an idea, how bout let an afghan entrepreneur start a company with the help of maybe some caring American business men, and let the people see what kind of potential a blooming country can have!

In my opinion, one of the only ways to get some real progress over there, is for passionate individuals to show those people dignity and love and help them to make a living for themselves.

[close]

I know all about the Aynak mine.  It was in my province in Afghanistan and people would ask about it from time to time.  I think the reason why we were so quick to want to mine it and take it for what it was worth was twofold.  One- greed, duh.  Two- and I think it's obvious, but we were/are getting desperate to walk out of there with SOMETHING.  We have fucking zero to show for this war except a fat ass receipt.

Your second idea as to what to do with it is nice, yet 100$ impossible.  I am saying this with firsthand knowledge of a very wide variety of Afghans.  I've been around high military officials and politicians and I've been around your ragged low level farmer.  The problem is that the country and the culture is inherently corrupt.  Corruption is part of their identity.  The more well to do are where they are because they were born into it, have no problem totally fucking someone over and have their hand out while their other hand is in their neighbor's pocket.  And the neighbor doesn't give a shit.  I remember asking a dude about what went down and what his reaction was when the Taliban would ride their motorcycles into his village, demand supplies, sometimes kick people out of their home and take it over or whatever.  His response was that that was how life was and that he would just move in with family.  He wouldn't stand up for himself because he didn't want to get fucked up and because that was the way shit was.  Fucking Karzai's brother is a huge drug kingpin who is more or less a gangster.  Hmmm, I wonder how Karzai got in charge?  Because he is from an affluent family that is known.  How do you make money in Afghanistan?  Drugs.  Corruption.  It's so fucked up and backwards and they are fine with that.  How do they know that the grass is greener on the other side if they don't even know that the other side exists?  You can't change culture overnight, it takes decades.

Truancy- I read the article, and while I can't 100%  identify with it because I am not in a Combat Arms job- I did roll out with them regularly in Iraq (I basically had a desk/liason type job in Afghanistan.)  I was just south of Sadr City in Eastern Baghdad around the same time that the author of that article was.  I agree with him- it does take a specific breed of human to do what they do, but I think he wrote off the after effects of joking about it a little too simply.  There are a lot more complexities in there.  Some make jokes to deal with the stress of what they've seen, some turn to substance, some go all the way and just more or less embrace that savage side.  I make jokes when I am stressed.  My first time outside the wire, I was hit with an IED that was emplaced at a Police checkpoint because the cops were all paid off by Jaysh al-Mahdi (Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army that was on the news all the time.)  It ended in a full on stand off with guns drawn because they were offended when we suggested that someone on duty may have allowed the shit to happen.  These were dudes that we were training every day.  I actually could have potentially met and ate with my killer.  That's fucking heavy.  The way I dealt with that was making jokes.  We played, "Would you rather?" and tried to not think about it.

I don't know if I have PTSD.  It's not as easy to diagnose as the media makes it sound.  I fucking swear that they make it sound like you can say, "Well, he saw some shit, he's fucked up."  Then what?  An arsenal of pills that may or may not solve the problem?  I don't have a problem saying that I am currently seeing a counselor and have been for awhile.  My third deployment had some pretty horrible shit happen to me.  I didn't get hurt while I was over there or see anything that I couldn't deal with, but without getting into it, I'll just say that when I left I had a home and a wife and when I came back, I literally had nothing except my clothing and most of my record collection.  I literally had nothing else.  I had a very, VERY dark year after that.  Then I slowly started to turn things around.  I still see the counselor even though I am pretty happy.  I still have some issues and I am still dealing with it, but I think I am ok.  I don't care if Kab thinks I kill people for money.  I don't care if people view me as a cog in a war machine- I mean if that's what you want to call it, then yeah, I am, but at the same time, that's why I am getting out, because I have my own problems with that.  I know I am walking into a fragile economy and that I could retire in 11 years, but it's just not worth it to me.  I'm over it.

Fuck!  Y'all are dragging some shit out!  I hope this helps others who are curious and may not be talking out (fucking lurkers!)  The author of that article was DEAD on- there is no stereotype of a soldier.  I mean, Jesus, I am pretty left wing, a vegetarian with a soft spot for animals and the environment, and I do not have or support any belief system in a higher power whatsoever.  On that alone, I am the opposite of the stereotype.  Anyway- this has been an interesting thread to say the least!

good post. thanks for getting on this level. i think that you are answering questions that many people in the US have and are generally unable to find answers to.

[Paper Crane]

i definitely learned a lot from this thread. i can't say how appreciative and fortunate i am to even be able to log on to the internet and type this out.