12 Dead in Islamic extremist attack in France

[chockfullofthat]

Are there really no Islamic leaders out there denouncing acts of terror?

Of course there are.

[Sleazy]

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the constant barrage of evidence that shows Islam really is a specific kind of shitty. It is centuries behind most other religions in terms of its evolution, and is currently unmatched in terms of followers who are willing to engage in violence, or who support/are sympathetic to it. Why that is so hard to just admit, I'll never know.

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This is the kind of dangerous thinking that leads to unwarranted discrimination against Islamic people that have taken no part in the actions of Islamic extremists. �What makes you believe that Islam is behind most other religions in terms of its evolution? �Many people I know, some of which are my close friends, are Muslim, and they are some of the most forward thinking and peaceful people I know. �Clearly their religion was not shitty enough to turn them into murderers...it's more about the political climate surrounding the religion rather than the religion itself that we should be worrying about.

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fair enough but i feel that they should be leading the out cry against this kind of thing which is either not happening or not effective because there is zero coverage of it. it wouldn't be that hard to compare what's going on to other more consistently extreme organization like kkk. i just feel that the leaders of the muslim community should be all over the media denouncing these acts and these interpretations of islam and should specifically be calling out jihad as being unreasonable and immoral but you just don't seem to hear that. it obvious that a lot of people are taking these teachings and interpreting them in really horrible ways. if that interpretation is wrong then please help clear that up. is there anything out there with muslim leader denoucing the concept of jihad?

i don't see how this is any different than the christian bashing that goes on all the time for way less offensive and horrific behavior.

also, the islamic friend thing made me chuckle.

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I don't see what's so funny.  It's not like I was saying that it's impossible for people to interpret and carry out the teachings of Islam in negative ways or anything, just pointing out that Islam being a "specific kind of shitty" is a very ignorant statement.

just seems kind of like when someone says "i have black friends"

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Are there really no Islamic leaders out there denouncing acts of terror?

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Of course there are.

got a source? i'd love to see something where notable islam leaders are talking out against the concept of jihad. i think this is just like how the christian church isn't doing enough about the molestation that takes place. it's obviously a result of their dogma they aren't modernizing their dogma to fix the problem and instead are just playing the "a few bad apples" card while kids continue to get raped.

[N.L.]

I'm all for freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom of what ever else illusory bullshit people want to believe in, but these cartoonist knew good and well what they were doing and who they were pissing off. All for what? To create controversy, in order to sell a few more magazines? Fuck that. They were playing with flaming acid, and that shit blew up in there faces.


This police officer's blood is on their hands.

Fuck that. Freedom of speech/ of the press only means anything if people are prepared to exercsie it. Charile Hedbo pushed the limits and for that we should all thank them.

[Thrillho]

They need to turn that whole Mohammedan part of the world into glass.

[SHARPSHOOTER]

They need to turn that whole Mohammedan part of the world into glass.

[foureyedjim]

just seems kind of like when someone says "i have black friends"

Is it?  That's usually an excuse people use to dismiss any possibility of them being racist against black people. 
Whatever, not like it really matters but that did confuse me a bit.

There seem to be plenty of Muslim people that denounce acts of terror but just as the Church technically does denounce child molestation, there can be a lot more done.

[NickDagger]

[chockfullofthat]

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Are there really no Islamic leaders out there denouncing acts of terror?

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Of course there are.

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got a source? i'd love to see something where notable islam leaders are talking out against the concept of jihad. i think this is just like how the christian church isn't doing enough about the molestation that takes place. it's obviously a result of their dogma they aren't modernizing their dogma to fix the problem and instead are just playing the "a few bad apples" card while kids continue to get raped.

Do you know how to use a search engine?
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/21/muslim-leaders-have-roundly-denounced-islamic-s/200498
http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

[Sleazy]

Sure I do

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

[AnotherHardDayAtTheOffice]

Apart from that ISIS was created as a counter-act to the external policy of EU and US that wanted a piece of the Middle Eastern pie. ISIS is the ISLAMIC version of fascism. And the conditions of their birth can be compared through the humiliations germany suffered after World War I and gave birth to Nazism. ISIS are the child of the humiliation Islamic people suffered in their countries during the intervention of the west. Not to mention that the West sabotaged mild Islamists and supported Talibans and extremists in the Middle East just because they served their interests...

THIS. Jihadism and Islamism are to the Muslim world what fascism and right-wing populism are to the West and have to be looked at in similar ways. This means first and foremost that, while both ARE connected to Islam in general, this does not mean that they can be equated with it. In a similar manner, while fascism is a child of Western capitalism, this does not mean that people from the West in general, or Germany in particular, are necessarily fascist. However, this is an explanation for Jihadism rather than an excuse, just like there's a lot of explanations for the rise of fascism in Germany but not excuse.

Unfortunately, this incident will invariably lead to outbursts of Islamophobia in Europe. Muslims will have to explain themselves (again) and make extra clear they're not connected to this attack. This makes me sad.

[dillanharp]

As someone who has read both the Qur'an and the Hadiths, worked in the field, fuck it, bring on WW3. It's not a "religion of peace" no matter what you get told. Shit is violent, some of it is up for interpretation, but the majority of it is splayed out for you in the surahs. And any major Islamic website you visit actively leaves out the majority of passages on jihad or spins the shit in a different light, because why wouldn't they.

[oyolar]

Sure I do

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

You sure?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-leaders-condemn-attack-warn-on-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/
http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2009/05/26/muslims-do-speak-out-against-terror/6708

Congrats on pulling up the Wiki page on jihad as if it makes a point in your larger argument.  Plenty of other religions have metaphors or ideas of waging war against non-believers.

[fulltechnicalskizzy]

Tragic. But as skaters we cannot help but admire their Xtremity.

[dillanharp]

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Sure I do

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

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You sure?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-leaders-condemn-attack-warn-on-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/
http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2009/05/26/muslims-do-speak-out-against-terror/6708

Congrats on pulling up the Wiki page on jihad as if it makes a point in your larger argument.  Plenty of other religions have metaphors or ideas of waging war against non-believers.

This is in one of your links. If someone considers drawing the prophet as an attack...
"but if they fight you, then fight them back. That is the reward of the rejectors. Then if they cease, so God is All-Forgiving, Gentle. And fight them until there is no more persecution and the religion is for God. But if they cease, so let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." - Qur’an 2:190-193

[Paul Cicero]

As someone who has read both the Qur'an and the Hadiths, worked in the field, fuck it, bring on WW3. It's not a "religion of peace" no matter what you get told. Shit is violent, some of it is up for interpretation, but the majority of it is splayed out for you in the surahs. And any major Islamic website you visit actively leaves out the majority of passages on jihad or spins the shit in a different light, because why wouldn't they.

I'm no expert, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it still OK to stone a woman to death if they believe she has brought dishoner to a family name? Not proven, but just thought to? Shit makes me sick. How can they claim to be a peaceful people when such barbaric things are still OK?

[smokecrack]

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Sure I do

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

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You sure?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-leaders-condemn-attack-warn-on-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/
http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2009/05/26/muslims-do-speak-out-against-terror/6708

Congrats on pulling up the Wiki page on jihad as if it makes a point in your larger argument.  Plenty of other religions have metaphors or ideas of waging war against non-believers.

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This is in one of your links. If someone considers drawing the prophet as an attack...
"but if they fight you, then fight them back. That is the reward of the rejectors. Then if they cease, so God is All-Forgiving, Gentle. And fight them until there is no more persecution and the religion is for God. But if they cease, so let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." - Qur’an 2:190-193

Oyolar, read all the Jihad passages that are in the Quran and tell me they're just "metaphors".

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

...who fought and were slain...I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned

...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...

(and let's not forget that their Holy Prophet Muhammad was married to a 9 year old girl (well, he married her at around 6-7 and she went to live with him/consummate the marriage at age 9)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

pretty neat stuff.

[oyolar]

Hold on--I didn't say that the Quran and Hadith don't have violent passages. I know they do.  I'm not defending those documents or passages or the religion.  All I said was that pulling up the Wikipedia article on "Jihad" doesn't address the point that Islamic priests have spoken out against terrorism AND that the concept(s) of Jihad is(/are) still debated is the Muslim community.  Plus, the idea of a physical/violent and spiritual war or struggle against non-believers isn't unique to Islam, a fact that people often ignore.

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As someone who has read both the Qur'an and the Hadiths, worked in the field, fuck it, bring on WW3. It's not a "religion of peace" no matter what you get told. Shit is violent, some of it is up for interpretation, but the majority of it is splayed out for you in the surahs. And any major Islamic website you visit actively leaves out the majority of passages on jihad or spins the shit in a different light, because why wouldn't they.

[close]

I'm no expert, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it still OK to stone a woman to death if they believe she has brought dishoner to a family name? Not proven, but just thought to? Shit makes me sick. How can they claim to be a peaceful people when such barbaric things are still OK?

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the Quran that says its ok to stone women in order to restore a family's honor.  And I added some links just doing a little googling that seem to say the same thing.  I've heard that a lot of those types of practices are based on different rulers' laws and interpretations of religious, political, and legal texts, as well as cultural practices (at least in the Middle East), but I have no real idea.

There's a lot of info on the wikipedia page on honor killings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/readings/honor-kil-ng.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/stoning-for-misogyny_b_709715.html

[abudabi]

anyone on here have any friends who have gone nuts thinking they were jesus? i have 3 friends who have done this, and i dont know that many people. why does religion attract insanity?

[Paul Cicero]

Hold on--I didn't say that the Quran and Hadith don't have violent passages. I know they do.  I'm not defending those documents or passages or the religion.  All I said was that pulling up the Wikipedia article on "Jihad" doesn't address the point that Islamic priests have spoken out against terrorism AND that the concept(s) of Jihad is(/are) still debated is the Muslim community.  Plus, the idea of a physical/violent and spiritual war or struggle against non-believers isn't unique to Islam, a fact that people often ignore.

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As someone who has read both the Qur'an and the Hadiths, worked in the field, fuck it, bring on WW3. It's not a "religion of peace" no matter what you get told. Shit is violent, some of it is up for interpretation, but the majority of it is splayed out for you in the surahs. And any major Islamic website you visit actively leaves out the majority of passages on jihad or spins the shit in a different light, because why wouldn't they.

[close]

I'm no expert, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it still OK to stone a woman to death if they believe she has brought dishoner to a family name? Not proven, but just thought to? Shit makes me sick. How can they claim to be a peaceful people when such barbaric things are still OK?

[close]

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the Quran that says its ok to stone women in order to restore a family's honor.  And I added some links just doing a little googling that seem to say the same thing.  I've heard that a lot of those types of practices are based on different rulers' laws and interpretations of religious, political, and legal texts, as well as cultural practices (at least in the Middle East), but I have no real idea.

There's a lot of info on the wikipedia page on honor killings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/readings/honor-kil-ng.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/stoning-for-misogyny_b_709715.html

Cheers oyolar, that wiki link is a heavy read.

[abudabi]

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They need to turn that whole Mohammedan part of the world into glass.

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do the two of you not have any friends who have recently immigrated from the middle east? or just emotional?

[excitableboy]

I empathize with Koraneers as little as the next guy, but it truly is an incredibly small minority of  muslims who (openly) condone this kind of thing;  to say the doers are lone wolves is considered naive on days like this, but I still believe it.

A steady, open-minded upbringing is not skewed by one book alone. It takes careful resculpting of an already damaged mind. The desert extremists are among the poorest people in the world; European extremists are fringy goofballs almost without exception. In this case, too, the jihadists appear to be lost bums who found a cause. By no means does the info that is currently out on them point to hardcore Koran-boys. I bet we'll find, like most of the European Jihad-joiners, that they were losers, small-time hashishi's who lived a practically secular life until they had degenerated far enough to consider Allah a Cheatcode to finally Win something.

They killed some of the best cartoonists in france, like really really really great people i grew up with. Freeminded and just fucking amazing people i'm super sad.

Exactement. This fucking sucks.

[Sleazy]

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Sure I do

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

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You sure?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-leaders-condemn-attack-warn-on-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/
http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2009/05/26/muslims-do-speak-out-against-terror/6708

Congrats on pulling up the Wiki page on jihad as if it makes a point in your larger argument.  Plenty of other religions have metaphors or ideas of waging war against non-believers.

my point wasn't that it hasn't happened on any leve it was that it hasn't been done on an effective level. and by effective level, i mean on a level that doesn't require googling to find links to know about and in a way that talks against the parts of their religion that obviously are being interpreted by a large number of people, over a long period of time in ways that enable people to do horrific acts against others with no regard for their own safety making them impossible to stop. freedom of religion is one thing but freedom of speech is another, there's got to be respect for both. you're not going to get people to be willing to die for your cause that easy without having something like this backing it. i saw a vice show about suicide bombers and the guys who recruits them claimed they could convert a person in a day and they were using islam to do it. if your religion is truely being misinterpreted that bad, if the message is actually that much different then you should have a strong campaign within you community to address that and correct the message on a global scale. they should be marching in the streets in large number, they should be leading the charge here. there are islamic extremist all over the world misinterpreting this stuff, the least they could do is help fix the problem that their own religious text are helping to cause with all the violent messages in them. thinking they should be involved in these ways doesn't mean you think negatively of every muslim person just like thinking that christians need to do more about child rape doesn't mean you feel negatively about christians.

[Willie]

Whenever something like this happens I immediately think "someone should do a terror attack over there and waste a few of those shitheads!"

Then I realize we probably killed 10 people in a drone attack yesterday, 8 people with a misguided artillery strike the day before that, 4 guys with a drone the day before that, someone's goat the day before that, blew some kid's legs off with an unexploded cluster bomblet the day before that, etc.

[Monty Burns]

While I do understand that the "bad guys" who are Muslim is just a small part of the millions of peaceful and good Muslims

I must admit that Im getting pretty sick of them


Being from Sweden and seeing how alot of them act and force their beliefs and rules on Swedish and European culture is quite depressing .
Its interesting to see that many countries accept refuges who escape their countries to survive and then having their host countries change to fit them is quite fucked up

The roles reversed usually gives westerners no rights at all in the Arab countries .

The oatmeal had a pretty interesting thing about this

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion


Religion is a really bad thing , I understand it gives hope and comfort to some people , but if you think about all the wars and killings over the smallest change in texts and books , people who believe in the same god killing each other over a super small detail or people who are just bat shit insane and belive in super weird things Mormons , Scientology and other smaller religions or cults


Glad Im a atheist and Im not going to kill anybody just cause they make fun of me not believing or somebody drawing a cartoon about it

[Tufty]

 The phenomenon has strictly economical explanations. Arguing about religions doesnt make you better than the worst brainwashed Jihadists. They kill with AK-47 you kill by supporting the US-EU external policy and NATO. The rich own the media and want to make this a discussion about bad religion vs good religion and not a discussion about economical circumstances that give birth to extremism. Its nice when u shit in someone elses yard but when the shit start to be thrown back to you, you try to hide that this is your own shit and set up your defence. Fuck you, eat your shit like a man. 

[Sleazy]

i'm sorry it seems less crazy to me to kill over resources than over mystical fairy tails

[NickDagger]

[excitableboy]

economical circumstances

Quoted for truth. However, Islam, like Christianity in the past, has proven to be a powerful catalyst. I'm not sure if other religions could mobilize its followers as effectively as Islam still can today. It would seem to require an all-new, Helter Skelter type of zeal for non-Islamists to go Akbar on society. But then I think about Ireland and figure maybe I'm wrong.

Today, my feed was suddenly filled not with #iamcharlie, but with articles criticizing Hebdo's cartoons. Something has settled and now people are actually considering the short-skirt argument. If satire amounts to 'kicking down', mocking an already marginalized group, you are kind of asking for it, they say. This really undermines everything satire and free speech are about and in any case, Hebdo kicked whatever they thought was funny, Left, Right, up or down. Twelve people died and already people are like 'best not be rude then'. If there is a lesson here, that is NOT it.

[excitableboy]

i'm sorry it seems less crazy to me to kill over resources than over mystical fairy tails

Ideology all the same.

Edit: I agree, it does seem that way. Just not sure that it is.

[Wall of Nausea]