Truck set-ups

[Mbrimson88]

What known issues are there with Mids? I’ve only heard the kingpin thing from you and my set and my friend’s sets have been great.

Some reviews say the height / weight / minimal kingpin clearance have people including pro riders taking them off after they do their "photo shoot" with them and putting their usual Indy standards or forged hollows back on.

The video review from Ron Whaley makes sense with the info he provided, although he is under NHS so people said of course he is going to give them a favourable review.

All up, if people are not keen on a 55mm tall truck in the standards, the hollow forged option at 53.5mm tall is pretty much the best go to, more so than the 52mm tall heavy Mid truck with kingpin clearance issues, but that is not to say that a lot of people will not skate them and like them all the same.

It is just one of those things that the Indy mid is maybe the most over hyped truck on the current market, with many of those trucks ending up used a bit and people just want to get rid of them.


If it was an option between Indy Mids and Ventures, most people I know would take the Ventures and have done, or gone back to the other Indy options.


* Edit - just curious too, but as per post above, do you have to retighten the kingpin down much or at all or have you done anything to it to keep it from continually coming undone?

That is also another annoying thing with the Indy Mid trucks that I forgot to say before.

[Justrollingthru]

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Setting up a board for the first time in a couple years tomorrow. Got it mostly figured out except trucks.

Torn between Indy mids and ventures cause that's what I've always ridden mostly.

Board is 8.25 x 31.5 w/ 14.25 wb

I skate all terrain.

[close]

Not to say don't get the Indy mids, but that inverted kingpin and other known issues make those trucks second to standard Ventures in almost every situation, and that is coming from me, a shop guy who prefers Indy over everything else for my own setups, even though I have some of almost everything still set up on boards that I have as spares or for others to skate at the indoor park - try before you buy type of deal.

Indy standards, or probably more so the hollow forged option would be better than Indy mids and more comparable to Venture trucks too, with so many people I know trying the Indy mids and going back to whatever they were on before as they just didn't like them as much, or at all.

Of course the decision is yours, but do your research and compare things like wheel size, board and wheelbase length, among others if you are really interested, otherwise get something that makes you happy and go from there.

Word word

Right now I'm leaning hard towards the venture vlights and putting one Indy hard conical on bottom, leaving the top venture conical bushings and putting a flat washer on em.

Mostly leaning more towards the venture vlights cause they are cheaper than the standard stage 11s although I've mostly ridden indys (back to back to back pairs etc) ventures are in second.

[Mbrimson88]

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Setting up a board for the first time in a couple years tomorrow. Got it mostly figured out except trucks.

Torn between Indy mids and ventures cause that's what I've always ridden mostly.

Board is 8.25 x 31.5 w/ 14.25 wb

I skate all terrain.

[close]

Not to say don't get the Indy mids, but that inverted kingpin and other known issues make those trucks second to standard Ventures in almost every situation, and that is coming from me, a shop guy who prefers Indy over everything else for my own setups, even though I have some of almost everything still set up on boards that I have as spares or for others to skate at the indoor park - try before you buy type of deal.

Indy standards, or probably more so the hollow forged option would be better than Indy mids and more comparable to Venture trucks too, with so many people I know trying the Indy mids and going back to whatever they were on before as they just didn't like them as much, or at all.

Of course the decision is yours, but do your research and compare things like wheel size, board and wheelbase length, among others if you are really interested, otherwise get something that makes you happy and go from there.

[close]

Word word

Right now I'm leaning hard towards the venture vlights and putting one Indy hard conical on bottom, leaving the top venture conical bushings and putting a flat washer on em.

Mostly leaning more towards the venture vlights cause they are cheaper than the standard stage 11s although I've mostly ridden indys (back to back to back pairs etc) ventures are in second.

Venture has upped their game of late it seems, many old Indy riders now on or back on Venture, with decent trucks and quality parts.

The people I know who skate Ventures say kingpin clearance is good, the stability is great, the height at around 53mm is just right for normal sized wheels and a few other things, but I can definitely understand how a lot more people can skate Ventures and be happy after messing around with some on a few boards I have.

[Justrollingthru]

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Setting up a board for the first time in a couple years tomorrow. Got it mostly figured out except trucks.

Torn between Indy mids and ventures cause that's what I've always ridden mostly.

Board is 8.25 x 31.5 w/ 14.25 wb

I skate all terrain.

[close]

Not to say don't get the Indy mids, but that inverted kingpin and other known issues make those trucks second to standard Ventures in almost every situation, and that is coming from me, a shop guy who prefers Indy over everything else for my own setups, even though I have some of almost everything still set up on boards that I have as spares or for others to skate at the indoor park - try before you buy type of deal.

Indy standards, or probably more so the hollow forged option would be better than Indy mids and more comparable to Venture trucks too, with so many people I know trying the Indy mids and going back to whatever they were on before as they just didn't like them as much, or at all.

Of course the decision is yours, but do your research and compare things like wheel size, board and wheelbase length, among others if you are really interested, otherwise get something that makes you happy and go from there.

[close]

Word word

Right now I'm leaning hard towards the venture vlights and putting one Indy hard conical on bottom, leaving the top venture conical bushings and putting a flat washer on em.

Mostly leaning more towards the venture vlights cause they are cheaper than the standard stage 11s although I've mostly ridden indys (back to back to back pairs etc) ventures are in second.

[close]

Venture has upped their game of late it seems, many old Indy riders now on or back on Venture, with decent trucks and quality parts.

The people I know who skate Ventures say kingpin clearance is good, the stability is great, the height at around 53mm is just right for normal sized wheels and a few other things, but I can definitely understand how a lot more people can skate Ventures and be happy after messing around with some on a few boards I have.

Ventures are super nostalgic for me. It was the first "cool" "real" truck that was recognizeable to me. I still had a world industries complete at this time bought from big 5 and I remember seeing an og pair of ventures on my friends older brothers board and they looked so cool to me. I always thought that "V" was super cool. But fuck it I'll ride anything really. I have royals on my zip zinger haha which still aren't broken and feel super sketchy to me

[Justrollingthru]

Chico is so sick. Ive definitely never gone wrong with Indy's, I've ridden them a lot. Probably done most of my best shit on Indy's but like Chico said I gotta mix it up

[Nth syd bear]

Hey Ace bushings in forged indys ?  The low bushings fit?

I've been using bones medium no bottom washer for about a year in indys
As comfortable as I find it I can tell its too wobbly from watching back shit I filmed

This thread is alot to go through I usually stay away from it 

[FrozenIndustries]

Hey Ace bushings in forged indys ?  The low bushings fit?

I've been using bones medium no bottom washer for about a year in indys
As comfortable as I find it I can tell its too wobbly from watching back shit I filmed

This thread is alot to go through I usually stay away from it 

They should work fine in the forged. Skating them in some standards with an IKP. Said it earlier but I have no interest in skating anything else.

[LebowskisRug]

Wait you're on the low or standard Ace Bushings?

I just put some blues in and transferred my riptides over from my Mids. I put the nuts back in the exact spot as my aftermarket 90A. They started out wayyyyy looser but across the first session firmed up a shitload and now are definitely firmer than the orange. I tried backing off the nut about a half turn and they felt more similar, but with faster rebound, which threw me off a bit. I might just go back to the oranges eventually but leaving them for now.

[LebowskisRug]

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What known issues are there with Mids? I’ve only heard the kingpin thing from you and my set and my friend’s sets have been great.

[close]

Some reviews say the height / weight / minimal kingpin clearance have people including pro riders taking them off after they do their "photo shoot" with them and putting their usual Indy standards or forged hollows back on.

The video review from Ron Whaley makes sense with the info he provided, although he is under NHS so people said of course he is going to give them a favourable review.

All up, if people are not keen on a 55mm tall truck in the standards, the hollow forged option at 53.5mm tall is pretty much the best go to, more so than the 52mm tall heavy Mid truck with kingpin clearance issues, but that is not to say that a lot of people will not skate them and like them all the same.

It is just one of those things that the Indy mid is maybe the most over hyped truck on the current market, with many of those trucks ending up used a bit and people just want to get rid of them.


If it was an option between Indy Mids and Ventures, most people I know would take the Ventures and have done, or gone back to the other Indy options.


* Edit - just curious too, but as per post above, do you have to retighten the kingpin down much or at all or have you done anything to it to keep it from continually coming undone?

That is also another annoying thing with the Indy Mid trucks that I forgot to say before.

I haven't seen any evidence of people going back to other Indy's. From photos Reynolds, Tiago, AVE, Carlos Ribiero, and plenty of other riders are still on Mids. They do not extend the wheelbase like forged, the baseplate wears slower on slide marks, and personally I've had zero kingpin clearance issues with them. They're definitely heavier, but the hollows aren't that awful and I'm not sure lots of people really care about the weight.

I haven't had my kingpins come loose. I marked them to make sure. It happened to one friend who got replacement plates from Indy and it hasn't happened since.

[FrozenIndustries]

Wait you're on the low or standard Ace Bushings?

I just put some blues in and transferred my riptides over from my Mids. I put the nuts back in the exact spot as my aftermarket 90A. They started out wayyyyy looser but across the first session firmed up a shitload and now are definitely firmer than the orange. I tried backing off the nut about a half turn and they felt more similar, but with faster rebound, which threw me off a bit. I might just go back to the oranges eventually but leaving them for now.

Ace low bushings. The top bushing height of the lows is the same as Indy, and the bottom bushing is maybe 1mm shorty than Indy. I know some people do a standard bottom/low top, but this is working really well.

[Nth syd bear]

@Macho Taildrop thanks that was exactly what I wanted to know picture and all 

[j....soy.....]

Re Indy miss, they just weren’t grossly better……I still think they tick a lot of boxes….

[Justrollingthru]

Do y'all know if ace performance pivot cups will fit venture vlights? I got them without even thinking about it.

The ace cups and the riptide venture cups look pretty similar shape wise but a little different and I'm seeing mixed results some say yay some nay

[skunty]

Hey all... I can't seem to find anyone posting a side/profile view picture of the Lurpiv's. Can anyone hook it up? I'm trying to get a look at that geometry before I consider dropping that much on trucks. Apparently my shop can't get the NHS hook up any more so I'm considering straying from Indy's, but they have one pair of 159s left, so I'm also considering that option. Maybe Thunder, maybe Ace... I'm a mess right now.

[tzhangdox]

Is this what you're looking for?

Just set up these replacement grub lock baseplates. Seems like they'll do the job, despite being a bandaid solution

[Mbrimson88]

I haven't seen any evidence of people going back to other Indy's. From photos Reynolds, Tiago, AVE, Carlos Ribiero, and plenty of other riders are still on Mids. They do not extend the wheelbase like forged, the baseplate wears slower on slide marks, and personally I've had zero kingpin clearance issues with them. They're definitely heavier, but the hollows aren't that awful and I'm not sure lots of people really care about the weight.

I haven't had my kingpins come loose. I marked them to make sure. It happened to one friend who got replacement plates from Indy and it hasn't happened since.

At the very least, if people are happy with them, sweet!

No issues there.

Also good to know the replacements worked better, so maybe they fixed something or maybe it was just wear on the first ones, so who knows really.

From the first half a dozen sets that passed through my hands, only one set is still in operation from the original user that I know of and they don't really skate a whole lot.  Everyone else either had issues with them or skated them enough to decide they didn't like them, so took them off, passed them on to others, whatever else.  Might have been a bad batch or something, but the replacements are still sitting here new in their plastic bags as those guys didn't want to touch them again after the first ones - more than one set for more than one person had issues with them coming loose in the baseplate area.


Between pro dudes who get as many as they like and ride whatever they are sent, or others who find that they prefer lower trucks, I can definitely see them being what people will happily ride.

When it comes to recommendations or if people are weighing up what to get, tech street skaters might prefer lower trucks in general or the Indy Mids, but most of the guys I skate with are all rounders / ramp and bowl type skaters and found them too low for what they wanted, which is why I had said not to get the Indy Mids on that basis.

[Xen]

Re Indy miss, they just weren’t grossly better……I still think they tick a lot of boxes….

When the ti Mids with that forged plate drop I'll bite.

[skunty]

Is this what you're looking for?

Just set up these replacement grub lock baseplates. Seems like they'll do the job, despite being a bandaid solution

yes thank you g. I'm going crazy with truck madness. I think what I need is just an 8.5 axel with an inverted king pin, and if the axel's placement on the baseplate happens to make a shorter wheel base that's a plus, and pair that with a nice 8.6ish board with a 14.25ish wheel base.

Anyone got any recommendations? Preferably not NHS because I'm trying to shop at the local and they don't got that.

[tzhangdox]

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Is this what you're looking for?

Just set up these replacement grub lock baseplates. Seems like they'll do the job, despite being a bandaid solution

[close]

yes thank you g. I'm going crazy with truck madness. I think what I need is just an 8.5 axel with an inverted king pin, and if the axel's placement on the baseplate happens to make a shorter wheel base that's a plus, and pair that with a nice 8.6ish board with a 14.25ish wheel base.

Anyone got any recommendations? Preferably not NHS because I'm trying to shop at the local and they don't got that.

When you say a shorter wheelbase is a plus on the truck, what truck are you comparing it to? Lurpivs are similar to indy, a tad longer than ace if I recall correctly. Not sure exactly but something like that.

Do you like high or low trucks? These are 55mm tall, so definitely on the taller side, but I got used to the height pretty quickly and dont really notice much when I rotate between this and my venture setup.

Lurpivs do come with inverted kingpins and that is a plus, though I will say the inverted kingpin isn't as nice as a krux or indy inverted kingpin. Not necessarily because of clearance, dunno exactly how it compares, but rather because of the really sharp edges on the exposed nut, will definitely pitch you harder if you catch compared to the more rounded off inverted nut of an indy, or krux inverted kingpin.

[skunty]

I like a high truck for wheel bite clearance. I remove the bottom washer too that alters the geometry. Thinking about shaving the bottom washer and adding a riser pad to really fuck w the geometry but keep the same height. Fucking w the bottom bushing like that ruins ur king pin clearance, so that’s why inverted is a must for that idea.

[skunty]

Do you know if the k5 kingpin will work in w say an ace baseplate and hanger? Or maybe thunder or venture?

[tzhangdox]

I think the k5 kingpin should work in all those trucks but can't say for sure. Haven't tried installing my own inverted kingpin since krux pins in thunders a few years ago.

Thunders and ventures all extend the wheelbase relative to indys and aces though.

Why remove the bottom washer? I assume that loosens it up a bit but couldn't you just run the truck a half turn looser? I've skated without washers before and in my experience all it did was make my bushings crumble faster and reduce overall stability without too much of an increase in turn. Adding a riser pad on an already high truck would probably be a bit weird especially if its already less stable from removing the bottom washer.

I guess I skate my trucks at a solid medium, medium loose sometimes, so maybe what we're after is very different.

Honestly it sounds like a stock lurpiv that you run loose could work fine and you wouldn't have to mess with it. But if you insist on modifying things a bunch, maybe just consider standard indys, do all your adjustments and then swap out the kingpin for a krux.

[Mbrimson88]

Do you know if the k5 kingpin will work in w say an ace baseplate and hanger? Or maybe thunder or venture?

A number of people use JB weld to modify their trucks to accommodate the inverted kingpin.

If you search WELD in the top right of this thread or other truck specific threads, pics and videos show up with a fair bit of info - a little too much just to repost right here, but that should help with all that sort of info as well.

There is a specific thread for Ace, Thunder, Venture so give those a try as well, all within the first few pages of Shoes and Gear.


Ace

https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=48056.5100


Thunder

https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=118215.270


Venture

https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=108614.2430

* Last post in the Venture thread was for someone else with the JB weld option too.



Even this one too:

New Thunder baseplate option thread

https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=113108.0

[beandemon]

I feel like I’m on the verge of needing fat bushings in the same vein as fat pants. I’ve been skating Tracker 184’s and the bushings, while excellent, seem to have gotten super soft. I had skated these trucks quite a bit a couple years ago, but I was 15+ pounds lighter.

[LebowskisRug]

Modification is a deep rabbit hole. I’m probably going to take my Riptides out as I simply prefer the truck the way it was designed, even firmer bushings feel strange

[skunty]

I think the k5 kingpin should work in all those trucks but can't say for sure. Haven't tried installing my own inverted kingpin since krux pins in thunders a few years ago.

Thunders and ventures all extend the wheelbase relative to indys and aces though.

Why remove the bottom washer? I assume that loosens it up a bit but couldn't you just run the truck a half turn looser? I've skated without washers before and in my experience all it did was make my bushings crumble faster and reduce overall stability without too much of an increase in turn. Adding a riser pad on an already high truck would probably be a bit weird especially if its already less stable from removing the bottom washer.

I guess I skate my trucks at a solid medium, medium loose sometimes, so maybe what we're after is very different.

Honestly it sounds like a stock lurpiv that you run loose could work fine and you wouldn't have to mess with it. But if you insist on modifying things a bunch, maybe just consider standard indys, do all your adjustments and then swap out the kingpin for a krux.

Removing the bottom washer started for me kinda by accident. Switching to bones bushings, they recommend ditch the washers completely, then going to soft doh dohs I needed the top washer to keep the truck together, and then I made it back to Indy bushings with the top washer and no bottom washer. I've been rocking that for about a year and I really like the turn, but I'm a little too quick to wheel bite so I think I'm going to add riser pads in my next set up. I've been studying truck geometry recently and I've narrowed down the few variables that I think actually affect the turning, and I had been inadvertantly affecting a few of them by removing that washer. Basically if you remove the bottom washer, or if your bottom bushing is smaller or lower for whatever reason, your hanger is going to sit a little lower, and a little closer to the middle of the board, and therefore also sit at a different angle - all 3 things affect the turning. Sitting lower will cause the king pin to stick out more relative to the hanger, so downlow king pin is definitely the move for this alteration. Sitting lower makes you more prone to wheel bite, so I'm adding riser pads in the next set up (side note - there's another factor causing wheel bite quicker but that will be later in the comment). Sitting closer to the middle of the board is shortening the wheel base - which means shorter turning radius. But what I think is the main advantage is when you sit lower you change the angle that the hanger sits so you increase the responsiveness of the turn. Responsiveness always seemed like a vague thing but I can explain precisely what I mean - Basically when you lean, how much of that leaning force is converted into the hangers rotating. I'll explain how I think it works because I didn't do all this research just to keep it in my head haha. Basically when you lean on one side you're causing the hanger to rotate by providing a net force perpendicular to the rotational axis. The rotational axis is the line from the pivot cup to where the hanger touches the bottom bushing. You can check for yourself right now if you hold your board so that the line from the pivot cup to the bottom bushing is straight vertical. Then look at where your wheel bite marks are and you'll see that the line from your wheel to the wheel bite mark is horizontal. When you change the angle of the rotational axis relative to the deck, the relationship is changed between the forces you apply to the deck and how much the hangers rotate. If your bottom bushing is lower than normal, then the angle from the pivot cup to where the hanger touches the bushing (the rotational axis) is more parallel to the ground than normal, and therefore more perpendicular to your downward leaning force. The more perpendicular the direction of force is to the rotational axis, the more torque on the rotational axis, in other words more of your lean is converted to the hanger turning. Back to wheel bite - I mentioned lowering the bushing adds wheel bite by another factor and that is related to the angle change. If the hangers rotational axis is more paralell with the ground, the hanger rotating will intersect with the board quicker. So downlow king pin, riser pads, and no bottom washer - and I think I'm going to do it on Ace, that's my gamble for 2022.

[LebowskisRug]

I'd love to see a video of you skating this setup. Have you tried removing your pivot cups I bet that would be super loose?

What I am not getting is why not just shave the bushing? The washer helps prevent wheelbite as the bushing has more to push against.

Also by doing this you're going to eventually fuck up your pivot cups.

[tzhangdox]

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I think the k5 kingpin should work in all those trucks but can't say for sure. Haven't tried installing my own inverted kingpin since krux pins in thunders a few years ago.

Thunders and ventures all extend the wheelbase relative to indys and aces though.

Why remove the bottom washer? I assume that loosens it up a bit but couldn't you just run the truck a half turn looser? I've skated without washers before and in my experience all it did was make my bushings crumble faster and reduce overall stability without too much of an increase in turn. Adding a riser pad on an already high truck would probably be a bit weird especially if its already less stable from removing the bottom washer.

I guess I skate my trucks at a solid medium, medium loose sometimes, so maybe what we're after is very different.

Honestly it sounds like a stock lurpiv that you run loose could work fine and you wouldn't have to mess with it. But if you insist on modifying things a bunch, maybe just consider standard indys, do all your adjustments and then swap out the kingpin for a krux.

[close]

Removing the bottom washer started for me kinda by accident. Switching to bones bushings, they recommend ditch the washers completely, then going to soft doh dohs I needed the top washer to keep the truck together, and then I made it back to Indy bushings with the top washer and no bottom washer. I've been rocking that for about a year and I really like the turn, but I'm a little too quick to wheel bite so I think I'm going to add riser pads in my next set up. I've been studying truck geometry recently and I've narrowed down the few variables that I think actually affect the turning, and I had been inadvertantly affecting a few of them by removing that washer. Basically if you remove the bottom washer, or if your bottom bushing is smaller or lower for whatever reason, your hanger is going to sit a little lower, and a little closer to the middle of the board, and therefore also sit at a different angle - all 3 things affect the turning. Sitting lower will cause the king pin to stick out more relative to the hanger, so downlow king pin is definitely the move for this alteration. Sitting lower makes you more prone to wheel bite, so I'm adding riser pads in the next set up (side note - there's another factor causing wheel bite quicker but that will be later in the comment). Sitting closer to the middle of the board is shortening the wheel base - which means shorter turning radius. But what I think is the main advantage is when you sit lower you change the angle that the hanger sits so you increase the responsiveness of the turn. Responsiveness always seemed like a vague thing but I can explain precisely what I mean - Basically when you lean, how much of that leaning force is converted into the hangers rotating. I'll explain how I think it works because I didn't do all this research just to keep it in my head haha. Basically when you lean on one side you're causing the hanger to rotate by providing a net force perpendicular to the rotational axis. The rotational axis is the line from the pivot cup to where the hanger touches the bottom bushing. You can check for yourself right now if you hold your board so that the line from the pivot cup to the bottom bushing is straight vertical. Then look at where your wheel bite marks are and you'll see that the line from your wheel to the wheel bite mark is horizontal. When you change the angle of the rotational axis relative to the deck, the relationship is changed between the forces you apply to the deck and how much the hangers rotate. If your bottom bushing is lower than normal, then the angle from the pivot cup to where the hanger touches the bushing (the rotational axis) is more parallel to the ground than normal, and therefore more perpendicular to your downward leaning force. The more perpendicular the direction of force is to the rotational axis, the more torque on the rotational axis, in other words more of your lean is converted to the hanger turning. Back to wheel bite - I mentioned lowering the bushing adds wheel bite by another factor and that is related to the angle change. If the hangers rotational axis is more paralell with the ground, the hanger rotating will intersect with the board quicker. So downlow king pin, riser pads, and no bottom washer - and I think I'm going to do it on Ace, that's my gamble for 2022.

If I understand correctly, you're doing all this so that the hanger sits at a slightly sharper angle for a little more responsiveness?

What trucks do you currently skate?

May be wrong, but I think venture hangers are pretty perpendicular, hence the extended wheelbase whereas Aces, compared to most trucks, probably already have a hanger that sits at a more aggressive angle, contributing to the more responsive turn. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

It honestly sounds like unless you need some crazy, unparalleled degree of "responsiveness", which I would guess is at the expense of some stability, stock Aces should be good enough. Generally considered the "turniest" truck on the market with the shortest wb.

I personally don't see how removing the bottom washer would result in such drastic benefits that its worth getting risers and a custom kingpin just to offset the drawbacks.

Personally speaking, risers, more wheelbite and a lack of stability would mess with my skating way more than a marginally better turn would benefit it.

[skunty]

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I think the k5 kingpin should work in all those trucks but can't say for sure. Haven't tried installing my own inverted kingpin since krux pins in thunders a few years ago.

Thunders and ventures all extend the wheelbase relative to indys and aces though.

Why remove the bottom washer? I assume that loosens it up a bit but couldn't you just run the truck a half turn looser? I've skated without washers before and in my experience all it did was make my bushings crumble faster and reduce overall stability without too much of an increase in turn. Adding a riser pad on an already high truck would probably be a bit weird especially if its already less stable from removing the bottom washer.

I guess I skate my trucks at a solid medium, medium loose sometimes, so maybe what we're after is very different.

Honestly it sounds like a stock lurpiv that you run loose could work fine and you wouldn't have to mess with it. But if you insist on modifying things a bunch, maybe just consider standard indys, do all your adjustments and then swap out the kingpin for a krux.

[close]

Removing the bottom washer started for me kinda by accident. Switching to bones bushings, they recommend ditch the washers completely, then going to soft doh dohs I needed the top washer to keep the truck together, and then I made it back to Indy bushings with the top washer and no bottom washer. I've been rocking that for about a year and I really like the turn, but I'm a little too quick to wheel bite so I think I'm going to add riser pads in my next set up. I've been studying truck geometry recently and I've narrowed down the few variables that I think actually affect the turning, and I had been inadvertantly affecting a few of them by removing that washer. Basically if you remove the bottom washer, or if your bottom bushing is smaller or lower for whatever reason, your hanger is going to sit a little lower, and a little closer to the middle of the board, and therefore also sit at a different angle - all 3 things affect the turning. Sitting lower will cause the king pin to stick out more relative to the hanger, so downlow king pin is definitely the move for this alteration. Sitting lower makes you more prone to wheel bite, so I'm adding riser pads in the next set up (side note - there's another factor causing wheel bite quicker but that will be later in the comment). Sitting closer to the middle of the board is shortening the wheel base - which means shorter turning radius. But what I think is the main advantage is when you sit lower you change the angle that the hanger sits so you increase the responsiveness of the turn. Responsiveness always seemed like a vague thing but I can explain precisely what I mean - Basically when you lean, how much of that leaning force is converted into the hangers rotating. I'll explain how I think it works because I didn't do all this research just to keep it in my head haha. Basically when you lean on one side you're causing the hanger to rotate by providing a net force perpendicular to the rotational axis. The rotational axis is the line from the pivot cup to where the hanger touches the bottom bushing. You can check for yourself right now if you hold your board so that the line from the pivot cup to the bottom bushing is straight vertical. Then look at where your wheel bite marks are and you'll see that the line from your wheel to the wheel bite mark is horizontal. When you change the angle of the rotational axis relative to the deck, the relationship is changed between the forces you apply to the deck and how much the hangers rotate. If your bottom bushing is lower than normal, then the angle from the pivot cup to where the hanger touches the bushing (the rotational axis) is more parallel to the ground than normal, and therefore more perpendicular to your downward leaning force. The more perpendicular the direction of force is to the rotational axis, the more torque on the rotational axis, in other words more of your lean is converted to the hanger turning. Back to wheel bite - I mentioned lowering the bushing adds wheel bite by another factor and that is related to the angle change. If the hangers rotational axis is more paralell with the ground, the hanger rotating will intersect with the board quicker. So downlow king pin, riser pads, and no bottom washer - and I think I'm going to do it on Ace, that's my gamble for 2022.

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If I understand correctly, you're doing all this so that the hanger sits at a slightly sharper angle for a little more responsiveness?

What trucks do you currently skate?

May be wrong, but I think venture hangers are pretty perpendicular, hence the extended wheelbase whereas Aces, compared to most trucks, probably already have a hanger that sits at a more aggressive angle, contributing to the more responsive turn. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

It honestly sounds like unless you need some crazy, unparalleled degree of "responsiveness", which I would guess is at the expense of some stability, stock Aces should be good enough. Generally considered the "turniest" truck on the market with the shortest wb.

I personally don't see how removing the bottom washer would result in such drastic benefits that its worth getting risers and a custom kingpin just to offset the drawbacks.

Personally speaking, risers, more wheelbite and a lack of stability would mess with my skating way more than a marginally better turn would benefit it.

If I were starting from scratch I wouldn't bother with all this mess, but I've been skating no bottom washer with bushings ranging from soft to med on Indy 149 hollow for about 2 years and I would say the turn on my trucks is pretty unique compared to when I hop on other boards. The only reason I've even bothered to figure anything out is because my local shop doesn't carry any NHS anymore so I wanted to research other brands to stay local, and that got me digging into what actually affects a truck. You're spot on that Ace is probably the most close to what my trucks feel like, and if I'm switching brands I'm pretty much starting from scratch regardless, but the god's honest truth is that thinking about and tinkering with this shit is fun, so if I can convince myself that I'm perfecting my set up and have fun doing it that's a double win. 

[tzhangdox]

I guess it can be fun, but in this case I'm just not convinced that you're perfecting it but rather just making things more complicated and worse for yourself.

Wheelbite and clearance related issues are problems you're going to be creating for yourself. And the solutions come with their own set of problems. Risers will alter the timing for all your tricks, and probably not in a good way because it sounds like you wouldn't skate risers without this wheelbite issue caused by removing the top washer. Inverted kingpins sometimes have a tendency to loosen and in my experience are generally a pain in the ass. You also can't see how many threads you have showing or if your kingpin nut is flush, not a problem to most people but definitely messes with me a little bit.

Plus like the homie said, this is probably going to wear out your pivot cups even faster.

If I were to try a new truck brand from scratch I feel like I'd might as just get used to it the way it was designed to be and see if I like it that way before involving all these workarounds that sound more problematic than they are helpful.