Making a Murderer- Netflix (Spoilers)

[QUIT SINNIN]

Just finished binge watching Making a Murderer. What a sad, sad, soul crushing story.  Exactly why I don't trust the government.

The first episode is kind of self contained and probably harder to get through, but trust me, this is worth watching.

Fans of the first season of Serial will enjoy this. Obviously I know that I documentary can manipulate facts and pull heartstrings, but I just don't see how there could possibly be enough evidence to convince any juror  beyond a reasonable doubt that these guys are guilty, particularly Brendan Dassey. \\What do you guys think?

[Monty Burns]

Some people started one of those online obama petitions to have the case looked over again , think its over 150 k signatures so far

[happenstance]

It was a very compelling story and it certainly makes me question what happened.

To play devil's advocate, the prosecutor did some interviews where he mentioned evidence the documentary left out:

http://www.people.com/article/steven-avery-prosecutor-ken-kratz-says-netflix-series-forgot-key-evidence

The *67 calls are an interesting tidbit.

Edit: I was curious to see if the filmmakers ever responded to what Kratz said. Here you go:

http://www.people.com/article/making-a-murderer-filmmakers-respond-steven-avery-prosecutor-ken-kratz

At the end of the day, who knows. As I said, the doc certainly makes you question what happened.

[QUIT SINNIN]

Some people started one of those online obama petitions to have the case looked over again , think its over 150 k signatures so far

Idk man, I have a hard time believing a petition and pop culture relevance is really going to change anything without new, hard evidence. I'm certain there is pertinent information the documentary left out, but even still, it can't be used as any sort of official record of the events.

To me, the biggest mistake the defense made is not offering any kind of insight, theory, or witnesses as to when, where, and why Theresa was murdered. Even if they didn't have the time or factual information to bring it up in court, nobody even speculated on the documentary. Because the lawyers even say that they aren't accusing the cops of a planned murder of Theresa, just manipulating evidence to assure a guilty verdict. And the prosecutor at the end says the jury needs to be ready to "make the leap" that the cops i.e. Lenk, did in fact murder Theresa. I realize that the fobbled investigation is reason enough for a not guilty verdict, but I'm a surprised there was little to no investigation as to what happened to Theresa after she allegedly left Steve's place.

All that being said, there is still no way that myself as a juror am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that these guys commited the murder. But again, theres a big difference between watching a ten part documentary filled with theoretical and emotional testimony, accounts, detailed analysis, and being a juror in the courtroom.

[Scott Case]

Kratz had some pretty cool sexts

[QUIT SINNIN]

Whoops, just realized I put this in Photos/Videos. Mods, can you move to WHATEVER?

[Monty Burns]

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Some people started one of those online obama petitions to have the case looked over again , think its over 150 k signatures so far

[close]

Idk man, I have a hard time believing a petition and pop culture relevance is really going to change anything without new, hard evidence. I'm certain there is pertinent information the documentary left out, but even still, it can't be used as any sort of official record of the events.

To me, the biggest mistake the defense made is not offering any kind of insight, theory, or witnesses as to when, where, and why Theresa was murdered. Even if they didn't have the time or factual information to bring it up in court, nobody even speculated on the documentary. Because the lawyers even say that they aren't accusing the cops of a planned murder of Theresa, just manipulating evidence to assure a guilty verdict. And the prosecutor at the end says the jury needs to be ready to "make the leap" that the cops i.e. Lenk, did in fact murder Theresa. I realize that the fobbled investigation is reason enough for a not guilty verdict, but I'm a surprised there was little to no investigation as to what happened to Theresa after she allegedly left Steve's place.

All that being said, there is still no way that myself as a juror am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that these guys commited the murder. But again, theres a big difference between watching a ten part documentary filled with theoretical and emotional testimony, accounts, detailed analysis, and being a juror in the courtroom.

Yeah Im not sure anything will come of it either  

Most disturbing thing about this is the low IQ of both of them . I mean the kid shouldnt have been interviewed without somebody ells being there helping him understand things . I wonder how many others there are out there in the justice system around the world
who just confess to things cause they are too " stupid " to realize what is happening out there

And at the same time how many stupid people commit crimes and dont realize it or think they can get away with it

[QUIT SINNIN]

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Some people started one of those online obama petitions to have the case looked over again , think its over 150 k signatures so far

[close]

Idk man, I have a hard time believing a petition and pop culture relevance is really going to change anything without new, hard evidence. I'm certain there is pertinent information the documentary left out, but even still, it can't be used as any sort of official record of the events.

To me, the biggest mistake the defense made is not offering any kind of insight, theory, or witnesses as to when, where, and why Theresa was murdered. Even if they didn't have the time or factual information to bring it up in court, nobody even speculated on the documentary. Because the lawyers even say that they aren't accusing the cops of a planned murder of Theresa, just manipulating evidence to assure a guilty verdict. And the prosecutor at the end says the jury needs to be ready to "make the leap" that the cops i.e. Lenk, did in fact murder Theresa. I realize that the fobbled investigation is reason enough for a not guilty verdict, but I'm a surprised there was little to no investigation as to what happened to Theresa after she allegedly left Steve's place.

All that being said, there is still no way that myself as a juror am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that these guys commited the murder. But again, theres a big difference between watching a ten part documentary filled with theoretical and emotional testimony, accounts, detailed analysis, and being a juror in the courtroom.

[close]

Yeah Im not sure anything will come of it either  

Most disturbing thing about this is the low IQ of both of them . I mean the kid shouldnt have been interviewed without somebody ells being there helping him understand things . I wonder how many others there are out there in the justice system around the world
who just confess to things cause they are too " stupid " to realize what is happening out there

And at the same time how many stupid people commit crimes and dont realize it or think they can get away with it

Yeah, that was really my big takeaway with this. I mean the bullying, manipulative interrogation of Steve and especially Brendan was something you would see in the movies or on the Wire or something, not something I actually believed happened in the 21st century. I hate to sound ignorant, but it kind of felt like most of the people in that community werent exactly the brightest or most well-traveled people, and so the intelligence of these two wasnt really apparent. Seemed like the kind of rural community that believes all cops are good, everything on the news is true, etc...God fearing people.

Also a tale of media sensationalism, really.

[JB]

maybe im forgetting some parts, but how the hell did the police come to the conclusion that theresa was raped, shot in the head, had her throat slit, and stabbed if they only found charred remains of her bones? the thing that i find so strange is that they never found any of her blood or dna anywhere besides that magic bullet and still found these guys guilty. i dont know how you could brutally murder someone in the ways they described that steve and brenden killed theresa without leaving some kind of blood behind unless you're on some serious dexter morgan shit. all you have to do is watch steve or brenden talk for 30 seconds to figure out that neither of them were capable of something as thought out and methodic as that wouldve been. and did the police not even search the place where she lived with that long haired guy? him and her ex shouldve been top suspects as soon as she went missing and the first place they shouldve looked for clues shouldve been her home.

[Pauly Walnuts]

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Some people started one of those online obama petitions to have the case looked over again , think its over 150 k signatures so far

[close]

Idk man, I have a hard time believing a petition and pop culture relevance is really going to change anything without new, hard evidence. I'm certain there is pertinent information the documentary left out, but even still, it can't be used as any sort of official record of the events.

To me, the biggest mistake the defense made is not offering any kind of insight, theory, or witnesses as to when, where, and why Theresa was murdered. Even if they didn't have the time or factual information to bring it up in court, nobody even speculated on the documentary. Because the lawyers even say that they aren't accusing the cops of a planned murder of Theresa, just manipulating evidence to assure a guilty verdict. And the prosecutor at the end says the jury needs to be ready to "make the leap" that the cops i.e. Lenk, did in fact murder Theresa. I realize that the fobbled investigation is reason enough for a not guilty verdict, but I'm a surprised there was little to no investigation as to what happened to Theresa after she allegedly left Steve's place.

All that being said, there is still no way that myself as a juror am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that these guys commited the murder. But again, theres a big difference between watching a ten part documentary filled with theoretical and emotional testimony, accounts, detailed analysis, and being a juror in the courtroom.

[close]

Yeah Im not sure anything will come of it either  

Most disturbing thing about this is the low IQ of both of them . I mean the kid shouldnt have been interviewed without somebody ells being there helping him understand things . I wonder how many others there are out there in the justice system around the world
who just confess to things cause they are too " stupid " to realize what is happening out there

And at the same time how many stupid people commit crimes and dont realize it or think they can get away with it

[close]

Yeah, that was really my big takeaway with this. I mean the bullying, manipulative interrogation of Steve and especially Brendan was something you would see in the movies or on the Wire or something, not something I actually believed happened in the 21st century. I hate to sound ignorant, but it kind of felt like most of the people in that community werent exactly the brightest or most well-traveled people, and so the intelligence of these two wasnt really apparent. Seemed like the kind of rural community that believes all cops are good, everything on the news is true, etc...God fearing people.

Also a tale of media sensationalism, really.

Honestly they are just backwater folk, you see them scattered everywhere throughout rural America. They find a piece of land to call their own and basically live in isolation doing their (weird) thing. I can't help but laugh at the phone conversations however, "Hello" "Yeah?" "Yeah"
I felt especially bad for Brendan, poor kid did not understand the seriousness of the what he said the first time around, he was still preoccupied with the project he would present during the 6th hour. And fuck the Len guy, what an asshole to push Brendan for a plea bargain.

[Monty Burns]

Yeah that part was brutal . Pretty much like

 " yes we raped and shot her in the head then burnt her corpse , can i finish my homework now ?"


Problem with police is that they are still human . And its not like they get FBI / Scotland yard /  Interpool training ( even they fuck up sometimes ) . I know they get alot of shit and deserve it many times . But they deal with the worst humans in the world every damn day .
Crazy situations and just people who lie and want to hurt them everyday . Not sure how you can do that job

Atleast in the military its usually  abit more clear cut . But Cops can go into a domestic violence situation , arrest the husband for beating the wife  , and then have the wife attack them for arresting the husband

But yeah these cops handling this dont seem to be the sharpest people in the world , and seem to be very biased since the first arrest for the rape . Seems they did everything wrong  , got warnings about the guy who actually did it and just ignored it

What kind of person decides to let a innocent man go to jail and let a dangerous rapist continue to do crimes ? And how the hell do multiple people decide to  do it ?

[LloydChristmas]

the Coburn license plate call is the smoking gun for the defense as far as I'm concerned, I'm surprised nothing more came of that whole angle

[Monkey_Mcpott]

Yeah the whole series is crazy. I totally lost it when Guilty verdict for the first count happened. The look on Avery's face was haunting, I think for him to keep his composure the way he did through all this in the courts is astonishing. Im glad its getting the attention its getting but i don't know if all this awareness will do something, i really hope it does though. The man was just trying to live his life after wrongfully spending 18 years in jail and trying to get the people responsible for it.

[QUIT SINNIN]

Yeah that part was brutal . Pretty much like

 " yes we raped and shot her in the head then burnt her corpse , can i finish my homework now ?"


Problem with police is that they are still human . And its not like they get FBI / Scotland yard /  Interpool training ( even they fuck up sometimes ) . I know they get alot of shit and deserve it many times . But they deal with the worst humans in the world every damn day .
Crazy situations and just people who lie and want to hurt them everyday . Not sure how you can do that job

Atleast in the military its usually  abit more clear cut . But Cops can go into a domestic violence situation , arrest the husband for beating the wife  , and then have the wife attack them for arresting the husband

But yeah these cops handling this dont seem to be the sharpest people in the world , and seem to be very biased since the first arrest for the rape . Seems they did everything wrong  , got warnings about the guy who actually did it and just ignored it

What kind of person decides to let a innocent man go to jail and let a dangerous rapist continue to do crimes ? And how the hell do multiple people decide to  do it ?

Well in this case the FBI did fuck up big time, as the blood sample being authenticated by them in my opinion helped make the case for the prosecution. And they were totally overstepping their boundaries by being involved in the case at all.

[posguy]

Yeah the whole series is crazy. I totally lost it when Guilty verdict for the fist count happened. The look on Avery's face was haunting, I think for him to keep his composure the way he did through all this in the courts is astonishing. Im glad its getting the attention its getting but i don't know if all this awareness will do something, i really hope it does though. The man was just trying to live his life after wrongfully spending 18 years in jail and trying to get the people responsible for it.

I don't know how anyone keeps their composure when found guilty of a crime they're innocent of. Depending on the crime, his especially, that seems like a life hammer that's comparable to finding out you contracted HIV. You're sitting in the courtroom hoping that the jury will do their jobs correctly and then to have the system fail you like that. I hope no one on here ever finds that feeling out.

[Monty Burns]

from TMZ

http://www.tmz.com/2016/01/04/steven-avery-new-trial-blood-prosecutor-making-a-murderer/

Ken Kratz, the prosecutor who sent "Making a Murderer" defendant Steven Avery to prison for life, says if scientists develop a test showing the incriminating blood came from a vial, he should get a new trial.

Kratz appeared Monday on "TMZ Live," and we asked him about the defense argument that cops took Avery's blood from a vile and planted it at the murder scene. Kratz opened the prison door just a crack.

We also asked him about a shocking comment he made to the jury during closing arguments ... that EVEN if cops did plant evidence, there was plenty of other, legitimate evidence to convict Avery.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz3wKHb4VSH

[LesbianPUNCH]

Just finished the series. Unbelievable. The bit about Brendan's public defender also working for the prosecution of his uncle...  These cases should have been thrown out.

The justice system can be ugly.

[shouldn't]

the Coburn license plate call is the smoking gun for the defense as far as I'm concerned, I'm surprised nothing more came of that whole angle

i really thought that would stir things up a bit more as well. despite how there was supposedly evidence against him that didn't get mentioned in the film, there was a lot more evidence that should have made his case stronger. all of the evidence in that tmz link is hardly evidence at all when its all coming from the prosecutor's mouth with no statements coming from the actual people that are being quoted such as teresa's boss or his fellow inmates from prison. nope, just quotes from kratz's mouth who ended up losing his job for being corrupt the same as how the cops in the last case had. when the judge was about to give him his life sentence he said that it was obvious that steven avery had committed the crime based on his criminal past. now, how do you come to that conclusion when you obviously know that he was proven innocent after serving 18 years??? that's not a criminal past, it's a very unjust past. they also said that she was murdered in the shed but, his nephew 'confessed' that he raped her in the bedroom and then slit her throat (in the bedroom)??

here are the main things about this trial that just don't make a bit of sense to me :

1. (as already mentioned here) there was not a drop of her blood anywhere on his property or on his or his nephew's clothes. even though she was supposedly shot at close range i believe 8 times?
2. he had a lawsuit going against the city for being wrongfully accused in his last case and was yet to receive any of the money. a multi million dollar lawsuit against a small town in wisconsin.
3. the two cops who offered themselves up to be in charge of searching his home somehow forgot to mention that they had just lost their jobs a few weeks ago for doing some crooked shit in the last case involving the SAME guy, steven avery. by crooked shit i mean they received information that he was innocent 8 years before he was finally realeased and they didn't share that information with anyone.
4. they only searched steven avery's home and belongings and they never searched teresa halbach's home, the home where she lived with a guy who hadn't reported her missing for 3 whole days.
5. her brother and her ex boyfriend somehow just guessed her password and username and went into her voicemail, deleting some messages while she was missing. messages that may have given clues as to her whereabouts or what had happened to her. why the fuck would you ever delete a missing person's voicemails??? your sister's voicemail at that.

those are just 5 strange and unexplainable facts that come up in this 10 episode series that is full of strange and unexplainable facts. we obviously can't say that he did or did not do it but, i think the evidence points toward the latter. even if he had done it i think that the main point in this program was to show that he never had a chance at a fair trial to begin with. also that our justice system is fucked as we already know that it is. good watch though.

[shit_for_brains]

The implication is that the police framed him for the murder and planted evidence and shit. Doesn't that also imply that the police killed her? How come nobody is talking about that as loud as they can?

[JB]

The implication is that the police framed him for the murder and planted evidence and shit. Doesn't that also imply that the police killed her? How come nobody is talking about that as loud as they can?

i dont know if i believe that the police killed her. the thing is that they didnt care who actually did, just needed steven to go down for it. just because they probably (imo) planted that evidence isnt enough to prove that they actually murdered her. they just did what they needed to do to insure that steven was convicted. but because of those early phone calls colburn made, i do think they had the whole thing planned out before that search where they found the car even happened. i could totally see lenk and colburn being the killers, but i could also see her brother and her ex behind it or even brendens brother and his hunting buddy who supposedly drove past each other and saw theresa outside stevens house a few hours before the bus driver who dropped off brenden supposedly saw her as well. there are plenty of other suspects to investigate, but these cops had an agenda and got what they wanted.

[Yushin Okami]

2. he had a lawsuit going against the city for being wrongfully accused in his last case and was yet to receive any of the money. a multi million dollar lawsuit against a small town in wisconsin.

I may be wrong but I believe he settled that case for around $400,000 which he just used to pay his legal feels for the murder case (which so fucked up).

[brent]

but steven did it



yeah i fuckin' said it

[QUIT SINNIN]

Am I wrong or didn't the prosecution say in it's closing statements (a complete reversal of what they had been saying throughout the trial) that Avery in fact acted alone, and he killed Theresa in the garage, NOT the bedroom??? Wouldn't that have instantly freed Brendan Dassey?

[Thrillho]

It came off as if they were trying them for two totally different scenarios.  None of it made any sense.

I don't think I've ever been as angry at a television as after hearing that kid being bummed he was going to miss Wrestlemania.  It's like no one in that whole court room ever had any experience talking to a kid with a learning disability.  How much more obvious can it get?  Him making shit up so he could go home, not being able to keep his story straight; on top of his cousin saying she lied too.  Then zero DNA evidence to corroborate the insane story he was tricked into creating.  There is no way they could have cleaned up a crime scene like that and still managed to make it filthy again like it was in 5 days later.  What kind of asshole can't stand up for their own ideals in a jury to keep someone out of prison for the rest of their life?

Was hoping it would end with a Amon Goeth style short rope hanging of every one of those secret handshaking fucks starting with that fat clown mouth granny voice prosecutor.

Whoever DID kill that girl should have done her fuccboi brother as well and spare us from his bitch comments after every day of court.

Iounno.  Pissed me off and I wish I didn't watch it.  Better a hundred guilty people go free.

[brycickle]

Am I wrong or didn't the prosecution say in it's closing statements (a complete reversal of what they had been saying throughout the trial) that Avery in fact acted alone, and he killed Theresa in the garage, NOT the bedroom??? Wouldn't that have instantly freed Brendan Dassey?

In the scenes after the first trial, Stephen's attorney mad that exact point. How can you see that he acted alone, and then turn around and convict someone for acting in collusion?

[shit_for_brains]

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The implication is that the police framed him for the murder and planted evidence and shit. Doesn't that also imply that the police killed her? How come nobody is talking about that as loud as they can?

[close]

i dont know if i believe that the police killed her. the thing is that they didnt care who actually did, just needed steven to go down for it. just because they probably (imo) planted that evidence isnt enough to prove that they actually murdered her. they just did what they needed to do to insure that steven was convicted. but because of those early phone calls colburn made, i do think they had the whole thing planned out before that search where they found the car even happened. i could totally see lenk and colburn being the killers, but i could also see her brother and her ex behind it or even brendens brother and his hunting buddy who supposedly drove past each other and saw theresa outside stevens house a few hours before the bus driver who dropped off brenden supposedly saw her as well. there are plenty of other suspects to investigate, but these cops had an agenda and got what they wanted.

But they found her car and BONES on his property. They had to at least be complicit with the murderer to arrange for all of that to happen. I know this case pushes the bounds of what people think is possible in terms of malfeasance and coincidence and corruption, but for the police to be framing him in their way, then someone else independently dumps her charred bones and her car on the Avery property, which has been effectively quarantined? I don't think the stars could align that well. Someone unknown kills her and dumps her body in the fire pit, then the cops think "Oh goodie let's get the other stuff going"? If her bones and car were planted, which with Colbourn and the plate stuff and the lady volunteer who just so happened to find the car it would make sense that they were, that would involve someone transporting them from where she was killed and dumped on property under police protection literally right in front of their faces. With how the Sheriff's office ran that town like the gestapo, I don't see how it could happen.

My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

[fulltechnicalskizzy]

[JB]

Whoever DID kill that girl should have done her fuccboi brother as well and spare us from his bitch comments after every day of court.

backing this.

My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

solid theory and i totally believe it couldve happened like that.

  i thought she was a babe.

[concerned_parent]

halbach's brother is a delusional fuck. i wanted to rip that dude's head off by the last episode.

i also think it was a loaded jury.

i also saw a crane manufactured by a company called Manitowoc today on my job site, did a triple take.

[ill_Murray]

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The implication is that the police framed him for the murder and planted evidence and shit. Doesn't that also imply that the police killed her? How come nobody is talking about that as loud as they can?

[close]

i dont know if i believe that the police killed her. the thing is that they didnt care who actually did, just needed steven to go down for it. just because they probably (imo) planted that evidence isnt enough to prove that they actually murdered her. they just did what they needed to do to insure that steven was convicted. but because of those early phone calls colburn made, i do think they had the whole thing planned out before that search where they found the car even happened. i could totally see lenk and colburn being the killers, but i could also see her brother and her ex behind it or even brendens brother and his hunting buddy who supposedly drove past each other and saw theresa outside stevens house a few hours before the bus driver who dropped off brenden supposedly saw her as well. there are plenty of other suspects to investigate, but these cops had an agenda and got what they wanted.

[close]

My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

The hole in the top of the blood sample never being explained is another thing that I think adds to your theory. 

That dude Detective Lenk, which I mean come the fuck on that is such a bad guy name, had tons of access to the blood vial and would know exactly how to place it around the car.