Making a Murderer- Netflix (Spoilers)

[shit_for_brains]

halbach's brother is a delusional fuck. i wanted to rip that dude's head off by the last episode.

i also think it was a loaded jury.

i also saw a crane manufactured by a company called Manitowoc today on my job site, did a triple take.

The place that this happened in is really, really small. Everyone there knows each other, which is a large part of why that shithead Kachinksy was prosecuting his client he was supposed to be defending. It was just how they did things there. Everyone in any degree of law or law enforcement there know each other. They aren't going to shit where they eat. The Sheriff's office literally ran that small town and everyone in it, and the jurors weren't about to stand up and say "enough" because the Sheriff's office can do whatever they want. Never in their wildest dreams did they think the whole world would ask them about this hillbilly and his half-tard nephew that they framed.

Lenk was the last name signed on that evidence box log. He was the one who "allegedly" opened up that box containing the blood vial. He's a crooked motherfucker.

The Halbach brothers were as into the media coverage as some of the law enforcement people were. It was what, 4 days after she was missing, and they were like "well IF she's found alive..." like they couldn't wait to get wrapped up in this dramatic turn of events. I don't think that implies guilt or involvement, but they were on board for the media circus. You see people like that all the time though. John Walsh and Marc Klass became celebrities off of their children being murdered.

I hope the public perception of Avery doesn't turn because he is an idiot and kind of a legal shithead. People are starting to bring up his frivolous lawsuits he's filed since he's been in prison and how he's an asshole to his family, but it has nothing to do with him being framed for two serious serious serious crimes.

[weedpop]

Right after I got done watching this I was convinced that they had both been framed. After reading about some of the evidence that was supposedly excluded from the documentary, I'm not so sure..

In particular, the extra bit of Steven Avery's DNA that was supposedly found on the underside of the RAV4's hood makes it significantly more difficult to believe that he was innocent, although I'm still certain that other pieces of evidence were planted. To be honest, I don't believe anything that fuckhead prosecutor Kratz says (for good reason), but if surely he wouldn't claim the existence of extra DNA evidence if there were no record of it being presented at trial?

Either way, there was hella reasonable doubt and no way either of them should have been convicted. Also, there's no way the trial should have taken place so close to Manitowoc county; I don't know why either of their lawyers thought that would be ok. Kratz, Lenk, Colbourn, Kachinsky, that FBI scientist and probably a few more people deserve serious jail time for their actions.

[shouldn't]

if i was steven avery i would have gotten the fuck out of manitowoc county the very second i got realesed from prison the first time around. even though he isn't the smartest dude and his whole family/business is in that town it doesn't matter. i would have to figure some shit out.

[brycickle]

Total slam pig. The one in the background too.

[brycickle]

I mean the dude. Background wise/

[matt.]

My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.
[/quote]

This is what i think happened.

And regarding the DNA found under the hood latch on the car, they didn't find that till like six months later. And in that 6 months, the car was at the 5-0 imopund the whole time. If Lenk/Colbourn planted the other evidence, it wouldn't be much for them to take say Steven's toothbrush and rub the DNA on.

I've also seen online that they can't say for sure that the DNA came from sweat.... it could of come from anything holding Steven's DNA.

[Monty Burns]

My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

This is what i think happened.

And regarding the DNA found under the hood latch on the car, they didn't find that till like six months later. And in that 6 months, the car was at the 5-0 imopund the whole time. If Lenk/Colbourn planted the other evidence, it wouldn't be much for them to take say Steven's toothbrush and rub the DNA on.

I've also seen online that they can't say for sure that the DNA came from sweat.... it could of come from anything holding Steven's DNA.
[/quote]

Isnt "they"  the government ? or state ? , I find it weird if police officers killed somebody for something the government would pay .

Does Avery convicted of murder ruin his case for the 36 million ? its should get handled separately no ?

Anyways my point is why would they kill some random person over something the government would pay ? most of the things in the
rape thing was lazy work and not liking avery . But murder is abit more then that

[shit_for_brains]

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My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

[close]

This is what i think happened.

And regarding the DNA found under the hood latch on the car, they didn't find that till like six months later. And in that 6 months, the car was at the 5-0 imopund the whole time. If Lenk/Colbourn planted the other evidence, it wouldn't be much for them to take say Steven's toothbrush and rub the DNA on.

I've also seen online that they can't say for sure that the DNA came from sweat.... it could of come from anything holding Steven's DNA.

Isnt "they"  the government ? or state ? , I find it weird if police officers killed somebody for something the government would pay .

Does Avery convicted of murder ruin his case for the 36 million ? its should get handled separately no ?

Anyways my point is why would they kill some random person over something the government would pay ? most of the things in the
rape thing was lazy work and not liking avery . But murder is abit more then that


[/quote]

I forget the exact circumstances, but the details of Avery's initial arrest were such that the insurance company (or whoever makes those rulings) ruled that the Sheriff's actions were outside the bounds of what they were insured against and the insurance company would not be financially liable, and therefore wouldn't be responsible for payment upon verdict. It was those guys personally on the line for whatever money Avery was awarded.

[Monkey_Mcpott]

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My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

[close]

This is what i think happened.

And regarding the DNA found under the hood latch on the car, they didn't find that till like six months later. And in that 6 months, the car was at the 5-0 imopund the whole time. If Lenk/Colbourn planted the other evidence, it wouldn't be much for them to take say Steven's toothbrush and rub the DNA on.

I've also seen online that they can't say for sure that the DNA came from sweat.... it could of come from anything holding Steven's DNA.

[close]

Isnt "they"  the government ? or state ? , I find it weird if police officers killed somebody for something the government would pay .

Does Avery convicted of murder ruin his case for the 36 million ? its should get handled separately no ?

Anyways my point is why would they kill some random person over something the government would pay ? most of the things in the
rape thing was lazy work and not liking avery . But murder is abit more then that

I forget the exact circumstances, but the details of Avery's initial arrest were such that the insurance company (or whoever makes those rulings) ruled that the Sheriff's actions were outside the bounds of what they were insured against and the insurance company would not be financially liable, and therefore wouldn't be responsible for payment upon verdict. It was those guys personally on the line for whatever money Avery was awarded.

Is there a slight possible chance that maybe she isn't dead? All they found were just the right amount of bones right? or bones with her DNA ?no body right?

[Pauly Walnuts]

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My circumstantial idea based on a TV show: They were watching Avery, obviously, planning on what the hell to do with him because they (the people who were about to owe him $36m) were done for if he won. They followed Theresa Halbach, used police powers to pull her over or whatever, took her to that quarry, killed and burned her, then brought her bones and car back to the Avery property.

[close]

This is what i think happened.

And regarding the DNA found under the hood latch on the car, they didn't find that till like six months later. And in that 6 months, the car was at the 5-0 imopund the whole time. If Lenk/Colbourn planted the other evidence, it wouldn't be much for them to take say Steven's toothbrush and rub the DNA on.

I've also seen online that they can't say for sure that the DNA came from sweat.... it could of come from anything holding Steven's DNA.

[close]

Isnt "they"  the government ? or state ? , I find it weird if police officers killed somebody for something the government would pay .

Does Avery convicted of murder ruin his case for the 36 million ? its should get handled separately no ?

Anyways my point is why would they kill some random person over something the government would pay ? most of the things in the
rape thing was lazy work and not liking avery . But murder is abit more then that

I forget the exact circumstances, but the details of Avery's initial arrest were such that the insurance company (or whoever makes those rulings) ruled that the Sheriff's actions were outside the bounds of what they were insured against and the insurance company would not be financially liable, and therefore wouldn't be responsible for payment upon verdict. It was those guys personally on the line for whatever money Avery was awarded.

[close]

Is there a slight possible chance that maybe she isn't dead? All they found were just the right amount of bones right? or bones with her DNA ?no body right?

I think just the right amount of bones. Don't recall that any DNA of hers was still on the bone, but maybe the bone was the DNA? I have no idea how that works, the implication that the bones are hers, obviously there must be a test and all, or at least I figure there should be one.

[shit_for_brains]

Bones are made of DNA.

[floop]

http://makingamurdererhairstyles.tumblr.com

[EPetrov]

I dont think it should be expected of the defense to state who the true possible suspects could be. Their job is to defend. The detectives are the ones that have the responsibility. However, they, and the prosecution settled on blaming Avery.

[QUIT SINNIN]

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The implication is that the police framed him for the murder and planted evidence and shit. Doesn't that also imply that the police killed her? How come nobody is talking about that as loud as they can?

[close]

i dont know if i believe that the police killed her. the thing is that they didnt care who actually did, just needed steven to go down for it. just because they probably (imo) planted that evidence isnt enough to prove that they actually murdered her. they just did what they needed to do to insure that steven was convicted. but because of those early phone calls colburn made, i do think they had the whole thing planned out before that search where they found the car even happened. i could totally see lenk and colburn being the killers, but i could also see her brother and her ex behind it or even brendens brother and his hunting buddy who supposedly drove past each other and saw theresa outside stevens house a few hours before the bus driver who dropped off brenden supposedly saw her as well. there are plenty of other suspects to investigate, but these cops had an agenda and got what they wanted.

[close]

But they found her car and BONES on his property. They had to at least be complicit with the murderer to arrange for all of that to happen. I know this case pushes the bounds of what people think is possible in terms of malfeasance and coincidence and corruption, but for the police to be framing him in their way, then someone else independently dumps her charred bones and her car on the Avery property, which has been effectively quarantined? I don't think the stars could align that well. Someone unknown kills her and dumps her body in the fire pit, then the cops think "Oh goodie let's get the other stuff going"? If her bones and car were planted, which with Colbourn and the plate stuff and the lady volunteer who just so happened to find the car it would make sense that they were, that would involve someone transporting them from where she was killed and dumped on property under police protection literally right in front of their faces. With how the Sheriff's office ran that town like the gestapo, I don't see how it could happen.

Nah I think you're missing the obvious theory in that the police found the crime scene, torched the body,  then moved the evidence in the middle of the night to the Avery property. Or they just plain killed her and framed Avery like you said.

[Lenny the Fatface]

Just binge watched this with my wife, this show fucked us up. I still can't get over the blatant police misconduct that was overlooked by the jury.

[shit_for_brains]

I dont think it should be expected of the defense to state who the true possible suspects could be. Their job is to defend. The detectives are the ones that have the responsibility. However, they, and the prosecution settled on blaming Avery.

I don't think it was the defenses' job, but the general conversation seems to have avoided the "then that would mean..." part of this. It's all focused on Avery being framed, which is important, but there's an implication that the Sheriff's office will murder citizens to serve their own purposes. Which is another reason as to why the jurors and everyone else is like "yeah sure whatever the cops say is fine"

[brycickle]

http://www.avclub.com/article/west-memphis-3s-damien-echols-weighs-making-murder-230505?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_campaign=default

[weedpop]

I don't know if you guys remember, but the judge in the Avery trial actually prohibited the defence from putting forward theories on other suspects/explanations for Theresa Halbach's murder in their defence. As Dean Strang noted in the show, that significantly harmed their prospects with the jury, as it essentially meant they couldn't fight back against the prosecution's "then that would mean..." argument implying the police were responsible for her murder.

[Budo]

Obviously there is a whole lot fucked up about this, but one of the things that really irked me was Colbourn being one of the cops escorting Brendan to his verdict/sentencing and then ended up sitting right behind him in court.  I know it is a small town without many options for cops but that just seemed incredibly wrong.

I've been through the court system from several different angles and it never gone well from any angle.  I got called for jury duty selection like a month ago and I started having an anxiety attack just being in that setting again and thinking I might have to judge someone incorrectly.  I hope I never step foot in a courtroom again.

As far as theorizing, I got nothing from that to prove the cops actually killed her, but I could easily imagine them finding the vehicle and her and not having any other leads, and then realizing it was like a gift falling into their lap.  On the other hand some of the evidence not discussed in the film was sketchy to.  Like that one lawyer said, I almost hope Steven and or Brendan are somehow guilty simply because otherwise it is horrific.

[Dirtymac]

the Coburn license plate call is the smoking gun for the defense as far as I'm concerned, I'm surprised nothing more came of that whole angle

that's exactly what I was thinking. The look on his face when he claimed the dispatch said "99 Toyota" and they replayed it and he clearly said it when there was NO way he could know it unless he was looking at it. In the movies they would have led him out in hand cuffs right then and Avery would be celebrating with his lawyer. They had to revisit that in the closing arguments but the documentary didn't show it that I seen.

[excitableboy]

Not exactly. He could have heard before then, as I think he suggests in the film. Someone could have told him what kind of car it was, right? Seeing as he was out looking for it. Or am I getting the timeline wrong here? I thought he got away with it by implying he didn't remember how he knew but that he wasn't with the car, leaving it to be unlikely but not impossible.

I've seen all of the questions I have after watching asked in here I think. What a clusterfuck. Unlike Steven's lawyers i'm not so sure there wasn't any malice either. That Kratz guy for one, and his little helper. And that ex-boyfriend, whom I didn't trust from the get-go, which at the time I figured was to do with the Element shirt. But in later interviews, while they were searching, he seemed sketchy, as did the Halbach brother. They both seemed to hide smirks, and maybe they were just giddy to be on tv but I feel they know more about it.

This is obviously really speculative but like I said, the more substantive stuff has been mentioned already.

Edit: Someone mentioned how insane it is that the jury convicted these guys. My guess is that in court they were essentially given a dilemma: either the simpletons did it, or the government, in some form, did. This was of course a false dilemma, slyly emphasized by Kratz in his final remarks in court (when he alluded to how outlandish claims of evidence tampering were). The jury wasn't there to determine who did it, only to say if the suspect did. But I'm sure they felt that they had to side with one of the two, at some level. Does that makes sense?

[Bobby Peru]

My favorite part of the show.

Not exactly. He could have heard before then, as I think he suggests in the film. Someone could have told him what kind of car it was, right? Seeing as he was out looking for it. Or am I getting the timeline wrong here? I thought he got away with it by implying he didn't remember how he knew but that he wasn't with the car, leaving it to be unlikely but not impossible.

I think he made the call before she was reported missing and should have even known to be looking for the car. But I may be wrong.

That and the clearly tampered vial of blood, along with the planted key, clearly showed corruption. Those dudes should have gotten the boot for the Beernsten case, let alone participate in this case.

Here's a compilation of non-documentary evidence against Avery: http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

And for Avery: http://www.avclub.com/article/read-pro-steven-avery-list-what-was-left-out-makin-230634

Brendan's multiple testimonies and his cousin's retraction rubbed me the wrong way. That feels like behavior of guilty people who can't get their story straight, and not necessarily the result of coerced testimony. The link against Avery above suggests that Brendan's testimony wasn't coerced, and also that Steven had molested Brendan in the past. That, along with the *67 calls to Teresa Halbach really sway my opinion against his case.

Nevertheless, it was a disaster zone of corruption and fucked up lawyers. I think the cops somehow knew he did it and manipulated the evidence to ensure he got charged. But whether he did it or not, pretty much everybody on the prosecution were creeps.

[Bobby Peru]

Also, no new evidence in this podcast from 2013, but it provides an interesting perspective from Penny Beernsten.

http://www.radiolab.org/story/278180-reasonable-doubt/

[shit_for_brains]

Most of the stuff in the against-Avery link is disputed by the for-Avery link. It seems like throwing shit at the wall to see if it will stick. I'm betting that it wasn't used at trial because it wouldn't hold up under scrutiny. If he was molesting Brendan it was in the ~2 years between him getting out of prison and the Halbach murder, which would make Brendan at least 14 and about 6' tall. Brendan obviously will confess to anything and tell anyone anything he thinks they want to hear. He didn't tell the truth much so I don't know that he's a reliable source of information on anything. I don't think it's anything nefarious, I think it's that he's half regular.

[Makaveli]

Not convinced either way, both sides look like they're full of shit.

[sleepypancakes]

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[close]

Total slam pig. The one in the background too.

This wigged me out. It was the first show I watched all the way through on Netflix since moving back to Cincinnati, and the lady in the foreground of the photo is a news anchor here now. It took me a second to wrap my head around why she looked so familiar. Her name is Angenette Levy.

[QUIT SINNIN]

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[close]

Total slam pig. The one in the background too.

[close]

This wigged me out. It was the first show I watched all the way through on Netflix since moving back to Cincinnati, and the lady in the foreground of the photo is a news anchor here now. It took me a second to wrap my head around why she looked so familiar. Her name is Angenette Levy.

Ha, I recently moved to Cincinnati too and couldn't believe when I was watching the local news that it was her. Not as hot anymore though

[brycickle]

[brycickle]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/13/us/brendan-dassey-making-a-murderer.html?_r=0

[h00man]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/13/us/brendan-dassey-making-a-murderer.html?_r=0

When is season 2 coming?