Independent trucks and racist ideology

[passtheish]

✊🏾

[silhouette]

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Maybe Indy should just make Stage VIIs again. No logo (not necessary) and stage VII were the best anyway.
that way you please 2 groups of people.

[close]

I don't even like the logo honestly but it's become more of a statement of not letting cancel culture dictate what you can and cannot do.

It's less about a gradual restriction of your freedom than it is about society learning from its mistakes throughout history and adapting its standards accordingly as awareness is being raised on formerly neglected problems. Everyone is still totally free to be an asshole if they feel like it - they're just going to stand out as just that with no facade to hide behind. Some are scared and will try to blame the evolution on something foreign, but it's really on them to maybe start working on themselves. Remaining critical goes both ways.

[roastbeef]

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I feel like a cross is such a basic symbol to just ban because of nazi's.  I never even thought twice of it until this thread.  Like others have pointed out too, it's styled a bit different than the crosses the nazs used.  I'd defintely wouldn't wear a patch like this though.  https://images.app.goo.gl/5YzU8YjJoRx4TP4h9

[close]

Ive worn Independent clothes for decades, rode the trucks for decades. Not once has anyone every even mentioned to me it was a nazi cross and why am I wearing it, because it's not.

[close]

You wearing it is a perfect endorsement, for me to not want to wear it. Like a lot.

Sure do what you want. It's a non issue. And this is coming from a person of color. I know it's not nazi symbolism. Independent has always sponsored people of color. And they themselves say it's not nazi. Go do what you do.

[CallMeDillo]

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I feel like a cross is such a basic symbol to just ban because of nazi's.  I never even thought twice of it until this thread.  Like others have pointed out too, it's styled a bit different than the crosses the nazs used.  I'd defintely wouldn't wear a patch like this though.  https://images.app.goo.gl/5YzU8YjJoRx4TP4h9

[close]

Ive worn Independent clothes for decades, rode the trucks for decades. Not once has anyone every even mentioned to me it was a nazi cross and why am I wearing it, because it's not.

[close]

You wearing it is a perfect endorsement, for me to not want to wear it. Like a lot.

[close]

Sure do what you want. It's a non issue. And this is coming from a person of color. I know it's not nazi symbolism. Independent has always sponsored people of color. And they themselves say it's not nazi. Go do what you do.

Case closed, boys. Indy is innocent.

[ok boomer]

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Maybe Indy should just make Stage VIIs again. No logo (not necessary) and stage VII were the best anyway.
that way you please 2 groups of people.

[close]

Dope idea.
To go further, make them at ermico, or other North American foundry. Don’t make a ton. Charge whatever.
I don’t know about the economics of (anything) truck reissues, but it’d be rad.
Will never happen.


**edit**
Take the cross away, from all indys/merch. (Creating an underground market for racist skaters that cannot nose/tail slide to trade/sell trucks.
Come out with the reissue made in ‘murica truck as a nod to positive heritage.

I would pay more for Stage 7 / made in USA. And most likely would cure me from all truck madness (I dabble in Venture/ Thunder from time to time. But this started with Stage 9, my nemesis. I continue to dabble during X and XI, which I feel is PTSD from how much I hated IX)

[yourmumsballs]

The fact that NHS have changed their social media logo from the black and red to the yellow and green speaks volumes. They try and defend their imagery but it's obvious they can see what other people can see, particularly the majority of people in the world who are not skaters. Also, the responses they give about the origins of the logo are riduculously naive. We get that maybe the logo pre dates the Nazis, but that's the point. The Nazis co opted that imagery using those colours, and it's what people remember because as they say themselves, The Nazis came AFTER. and most people in the world associate certain imagery, co opted or not, with certain things. And Indy have used other images not just the iron cross. I remember a shirt and sticker they did which had the iron cross with iron wings that straight up looked like a Nazi officer badge.

And as a sidenote. My friends and i were set upon by a group of fascist skaters whilst in Germany on tour (one guy actually had a swastika tattooed on his forehead!) every one of them was wearing indy Iron cross shirts. Regardless of what NHS might think, there are a lot of worthless fucks that support and wear Indy gear specifically because of it's similarity to Nazi imagery.

[jakeumms]

✊🏾

Shalom

[Mike Oxwelling]

Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[Spacetravelisboring]

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Maybe Indy should just make Stage VIIs again. No logo (not necessary) and stage VII were the best anyway.
that way you please 2 groups of people.

[close]

I don't even like the logo honestly but it's become more of a statement of not letting cancel culture dictate what you can and cannot do.

[close]

It's less about a gradual restriction of your freedom than it is about society learning from its mistakes throughout history and adapting its standards accordingly as awareness is being raised on formerly neglected problems. Everyone is still totally free to be an asshole if they feel like it - they're just going to stand out as just that with no facade to hide behind. Some are scared and will try to blame the evolution on something foreign, but it's really on them to maybe start working on themselves. Remaining critical goes both ways.

You might be right but is it really harming anyone to have that shitty logo?

[WavyDavy]

And as a sidenote. My friends and i were set upon by a group of fascist skaters whilst in Germany on tour (one guy actually had a swastika tattooed on his forehead!) every one of them was wearing indy Iron cross shirts. Regardless of what NHS might think, there are a lot of worthless fucks that support and wear Indy gear specifically because of it's similarity to Nazi imagery.

The Hakenkreuz Swastika ist banned to show in public. I doubt someone would risk it having it tattoed in his forehad.

[Ok]

Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

[jakeumms]

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Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[close]

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

Equating all of Judaism with Israel is a lousy take. But ya know whatever wins the argument I guess.

[Ok]

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Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[close]

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

[close]

Equating all of Judaism with Israel is a lousy take. But ya know whatever wins the argument I guess.

I didn’t think anyone had presented, nor attempted to win, an argument.
Just another problematic symbol.

[ChrisSennsGirlfriend]

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I feel like a cross is such a basic symbol to just ban because of nazi's.  I never even thought twice of it until this thread.  Like others have pointed out too, it's styled a bit different than the crosses the nazs used.  I'd defintely wouldn't wear a patch like this though.  https://images.app.goo.gl/5YzU8YjJoRx4TP4h9

[close]

Ive worn Independent clothes for decades, rode the trucks for decades. Not once has anyone every even mentioned to me it was a nazi cross and why am I wearing it, because it's not.

10/10 anecdotal evidence bro.

my turn.

i bought an indy sweatshirt in seventh grade and my friends started referring to it as my nazi sweatshirt. i was so bummed that it was quickly phased out in favor of, yes, a world industries sweatshirt (in my defense it was 1998 and i was just a boy, dreaming of the soft flesh of the girls from skewl that i couldn't have, cursing the names of the boy bands that monopolized their hearts, hoping, praying that one of them would just look me in the eye and tell me i was special.)

[silhouette]

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Maybe Indy should just make Stage VIIs again. No logo (not necessary) and stage VII were the best anyway.
that way you please 2 groups of people.

[close]

I don't even like the logo honestly but it's become more of a statement of not letting cancel culture dictate what you can and cannot do.

[close]

It's less about a gradual restriction of your freedom than it is about society learning from its mistakes throughout history and adapting its standards accordingly as awareness is being raised on formerly neglected problems. Everyone is still totally free to be an asshole if they feel like it - they're just going to stand out as just that with no facade to hide behind. Some are scared and will try to blame the evolution on something foreign, but it's really on them to maybe start working on themselves. Remaining critical goes both ways.

[close]

You might be right but is it really harming anyone to have that shitty logo?

At this point it's obviously harming the brand if catering to the general public vs. a niche audience is what they're going for, and potentially their clients (the shops, see my post from earlier) and the final customers when incidents happen because the masses haven't been educated to the subtleties of one specific skate company logo, whereas they have been to more important human concerns. Nobody is pressuring anyone, it's just that times have changed, people understand each other's struggles better, hatred and its symbolism is more unpopular and it's just up to Indy as a brand to choose between either sticking to the old model or, more reasonably if they want to keep going, updating their logo. One can't expect the dudes who would smash those shop windows or just judge people wearing Indy garment to have read every newsletter of theirs beforehand and know a niche history, that'd be unrealistic.

Personal anecdote, I own Indy clothing I haven't worn in over ten years because one day I grew out of my skate bubble, realized the logo was wack and didn't register well with people, and then I gave most of the stuff away over time too. That's just not good marketing to begin with, no brand should want their customers to do that.

[jakeumms]

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Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[close]

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

[close]

Equating all of Judaism with Israel is a lousy take. But ya know whatever wins the argument I guess.

[close]

I didn’t think anyone had presented, nor attempted to win, an argument.
Just another problematic symbol.

My bad that was @Mike Oxwelling and was meant to point out his excellent use of whataboutism in reference to the pic of the Star of David over the Indy cross.

[TheFarter248]

This got me thinking, as the other day Ed Templeton posted photos from a pro-trump rally and one of the marchers was wearing an Independent jacket.  To non-skaters, does the Indy cross come across as a racist symbol?  Would you wear an Indy shirt in Trump's America?  The Manolo/Ben K thread made some points, like don't look like a nazi if you don't want to be lumped in with nazi's.  Does the same hold true for Indy gear?  Yes, it's a different cross, but still... Curious to hear the Pal's thoughts.

Maybe it was an Iron Cross jacket. Did you actually see it, or did you hear about it in Womyn's Lit?

[passtheish]

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Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[close]

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

[close]

Equating all of Judaism with Israel is a lousy take. But ya know whatever wins the argument I guess.

[close]

I didn’t think anyone had presented, nor attempted to win, an argument.
Just another problematic symbol.

The pic is from Lotties, who is a Jewish American, don't think he was necessarily trying to bring up a replacement but just bringing attention to the problematic iron cross

[Ok]

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Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[close]

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

[close]

Equating all of Judaism with Israel is a lousy take. But ya know whatever wins the argument I guess.

[close]

I didn’t think anyone had presented, nor attempted to win, an argument.
Just another problematic symbol.

[close]

The pic is from Lotties, who is a Jewish American, don't think he was necessarily trying to bring up a replacement but just bringing attention to the problematic iron cross

I’m sorry: I got that.
My first thought was: Star of David looks pretty sick tbh. Followed by, fuck, also represents a lot of suffering/oppression for some other folks via Israel.
None of it needs to be that deep.
And to Jake: I’m not trying to shit on Judaism, nor could I if I wanted to, which I do not.
Indy is kinda jammed up (I don’t feel sorry for them), they have a really strong brand image, that is successful, and problematic. I’m sure they will be fine, no matter what they do, but I hope they ditch the nazi adjacent imagery.

[passtheish]

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Israel is a champion of human rights: completely devoid of any racism.   I read it on Holmes's insta stories

[close]

Yeah I was like fuck. The star looks cool....but damn. Maybe a ☮️ would look sick. Not very hellride tho.

[close]

Equating all of Judaism with Israel is a lousy take. But ya know whatever wins the argument I guess.

[close]

I didn’t think anyone had presented, nor attempted to win, an argument.
Just another problematic symbol.

[close]

The pic is from Lotties, who is a Jewish American, don't think he was necessarily trying to bring up a replacement but just bringing attention to the problematic iron cross

[close]

I’m sorry: I got that.
My first thought was: Star of David looks pretty sick tbh. Followed by, fuck, also represents a lot of suffering/oppression for some other folks via Israel.
None of it needs to be that deep.
And to Jake: I’m not trying to shit on Judaism, nor could I if I wanted to, which I do not.
Indy is kinda jammed up (I don’t feel sorry for them), they have a really strong brand image, that is successful, and problematic. I’m sure they will be fine, no matter what they do, but I hope they ditch the nazi adjacent imagery.

Same

[expired]

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Which pros are jewish? Lotti and Glick?
I'm jewish and didn't know any other jewish skater in my city for a long time.

[Mr. Stinky]

Indy is a business, pretty sure in the end it's going to act like a business and do what it deems good for business.  They might change the logo, but probably only if they feel like they have to for the long term benefit of the business.  Stuff like this doesn't ever come down to real ethics (like, is it morally incumbent on them to change the logo, or whatever) it's mostly just going to be NHS gaming out how mad people will get if they do nothing vs. do something and then trying not to fuck it up whatever they do.

[Ok]

 

Indy is a business, pretty sure in the end it's going to act like a business and do what it deems good for business.  They might change the logo, but probably only if they feel like they have to for the long term benefit of the business.  Stuff like this doesn't ever come down to real ethics (like, is it morally incumbent on them to change the logo, or whatever) it's mostly just going to be NHS gaming out how mad people will get if they do nothing vs. do something and then trying not to fuck it up whatever they do.

True true

[50mm]

What's with the salute?

hahaha

Never saw this nor got it if I did.

[Salty Lame Ass Poosey]

I have always liked and wear their logo shirt especially as a skate coach dad at the volcum park in costa mesa

[Binomial Nomenclature]

The shape and silhouette of the Independent truck is recognized by skaters worldwide; they could easily just use a outline of the truck as a logo or something like that.

[COMMUNITYPACK]

Putting a Star of David on your Indy's is really making a statement and sticking it to the man.

If you want people and companies to change, vote with your money.

This applies doubly if you're a well-respected skate shop and skate shop owner.

I mean, I know we all have our preferences, and we're all very particular, but honestly, do you REALLY care about your trucks that much that you want to make some kind of statement but not enough to actually switch over to another brand? This is Instagram politics in a nutshell.

Are Indy's inherently racist? Is the company itself? Probably not, no. Did they have several meetings about maybe feeling like they seemed a bit racist, but decided, ultimately, that if people liked their logo-adorned products enough to keep buying them by the bucket load, who cares? Certainly.

Do they have ready-made press releases to send out anytime someone asks about racist or hateful imagery, which kind implies they know all this and don't really give a fuck? Sure.

And does wearing an Indy shirt or riding their trucks make you racist? Definitely not.

Have racists and fuckheads bought Independent branded product just because it was an easy and relatively cheap way to give off a certain "vibe"? For sure.

Have Independent made loads of money that way? Oh, definitely.

They might change the logo, but it won't ever change the fact they were fine with that, and happy to make a profit off of it until the world changed and they got called out.

[Cactus Cooler]

that is the best description i have read on here in months on how it works inside...

[notmikerusczyk]

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Which pros are jewish? Lotti and Glick?
I'm jewish and didn't know any other jewish skater in my city for a long time.

pretty sure this is mike gigliotti's board, who is jewish

[Mike Oxwelling]

The irony of putting a star of David over the Iron Cross is that the star of David was appropriated by a Nation that is well know for the genocide of Palestinian people.  That appropriating a symbol thing...murder a bunch of people thing....oh forget it....I'm sure I'm "reaching"

Here's some more fodder for the shit show....



Is the Birdman cancelled?   

Dig up Berra's interview where he says everything is "gay" about a million times.   Is Berra canc....oh wait sorry.   He was a long time ago I know.