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Skateboarding => USELESS WOODEN TOY BANTER => Topic started by: wheremykillahtapeat? on May 23, 2011, 11:49:35 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1FU6NbsJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfMLtV2B4Uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G08bpJuT0Uw
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay8x829pgug&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_7r1wkZ60s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VfXwdrZN4U
and why?
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VX1000 is the best because the colors are great, the sound is awesome, and in the right hands it can be unfuckwithable. I hate HD because the sound is weird, it always seems shaky to me, dont like the bland colors, the fisheye looks strange, and overall i think its just too much.
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I recently spent a fuck ton of cash on an HD television. Ever since then I've been infatuated with watching things in HD.
There's my two cents
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people who say HD is gay need to shut the fuck up and get with the times, and as for "the colours look better on vx1000" thats just absolute shit. the colours used on HD are more true to life.
its like VX1000 and that kinda footage is walking around looking at stuff with some smudgy glasses on and HD is walking around with 20/20 vision on a clear blue day.
i just dont understand the hate for HD, watching jimmy carlins colour thoery part on a 52inch HD tv is fucking amazing, however watching flip sorry on VHS on the same TV is painfull because it gets stretched and looks grainy
that bieng said i have nothing against vx footage but times are moving on and weve all gotta just deal with it
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VX1000 is the best because the colors are great, the sound is awesome, and in the right hands it can be unfuckwithable. I hate HD because the sound is weird, it always seems shaky to me, dont like the bland colors, the fisheye looks strange, and overall i think its just too much.
You said it all
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HD can look good, but only a few people have yet managed to do so.
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Having recently acquired a sony ex1r (the sony version of the hvx-200), I am pretty much obligated to back HD format.. That said, I've loved the vx1 since the first time I saw one as a kid. The vx1 is the workhorse of the skate industry, and has been since the dawn of the 3ccd era. The colors are great, it's durable, light, and the mk1 fisheye is perfect for capturing skateboarding.
Like it or not though, HD/solidstate card cams are the the future, yes it's way less forgiving on focus, shutter, WB, and everything else associated with the Human controlled aspects of filming.
But, not having to worry about buying tapes every day, glitching, capture time, and all the pain in the ass shit that goes along with DV tapes is awesome. when i'm filming, and the last try isn't a make, i hit one button and it's deleted. And when you learn how to actually set the camera correctly, the colors are fucking amazing.
Either way, both mediums are great for capturing dudes flipping wood around. so.. yeah.
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HD can look good, but only a few people have yet managed to do so.
Yes. Debacle and that Element Eurovideo were good. Just the technology without 'overediting' and gay-shots inbetween aren't that bad
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I was about to say that, if it is filmed and edited (like the Carlin Color theory thing) it is pretty cool,.. I am a sucker for my VX but once people lay off the hollywood filming Dolly shot super slomo sundown bullshit it should be cool.
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I like both HD & SD, it's the overuse of the depth of field that I can't stand. Slow mo is cool if done right and the dolly shots should have stopped after the Lakai vid.
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I love HD shit... from watching to editing, love SD as well, but it looks like shit on most of the stuff I'd have to play it on.
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HD just doesn't seem to capture the speed right. Anyone else notice this? It seems like it's slowed down or just doesn't look right to me.
VX1000 is definitely still king until someone fixes this.
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HD's superior, bar (as stated) shit editing/gimmicks/trying to be either super hi-fi or super artsy, and fisheye with 16:9 aspect ratio. One's the fault of those filming/editing, one isn't. Hell, I love skating on film more than either option, but that's a bit more prohibitive a format, obviously.
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I enjoy both formats but if you have a nice tv ,(I have a bigger led one) hd looks amazing.
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HD just doesn't seem to capture the speed right. Anyone else notice this? It seems like it's slowed down or just doesn't look right to me.
VX1000 is definitely still king until someone fixes this.
A lot of the HD stuff is shot at 24 (technically 23.98) progressive frames per second, so the motion looks slightly stuttered like film. VX1000 shoots at 30 interlaced frames per second (technically 29.97). Each interlaced frame is made up of 2 (interlaced) fields...a bottom filed and a top field. There are 480 lines of horizontal resolution on a nonHD tv and each line alternates feilds upper lower upper lower. The TV shows the image it writes all of the bottom fields then the top fields. This makes motion look really smooth.
Furthermore you'll see more Slomo stuff in HD. VX footage looks bad in slomo because at best all an editing program can do is try to blend frames to create the new frames necessary to slomo a clip. All the cameras that people are using now can shoot twice the normal frames per second giving you a really smooth crisp looking slomo.
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HD can look good, but only a few people have yet managed to do so.
The recent Strobeck Quiksilver clips are good example for great HD filming.
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not sure if this has been metioned, im not about to read through all th post to find out though.
i really liked what real did (at least what i thought they did) useing both, the vx for lines and general skating, and then hd for segway, slowmo' and cool shit. they didn't over use any of it. and the end result was awsome.
mind you i've only watched it on my friends small shit tv so so im probally not the best judge of this
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not sure if this has been metioned, im not about to read through all th post to find out though.
i really liked what real did (at least what i thought they did) useing both, the vx for lines and general skating, and then hd for segway, slowmo' and cool shit. they didn't over use any of it. and the end result was awsome.
mind you i've only watched it on my friends small shit tv so so im probally not the best judge of this
okay...
firstly get used to reading, one page of posts is not hard to read through
also the "multi format" thing that went on in the real video pissed off everyone at the premier i went to by switching between widescreen and regular format, realy hard on the eyes, would have looked allright if they were both in the same scale, but they wernt and it looked awkward and messy
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mind you i've only watched it on my friends small shit tv so so im probally not the best judge of this
yeah you arent
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Only reason why I have a problem with SD more is cause I have a HD TV and even my iMac displays SD horribly where it hurts my eyes. I can't see what the big deal is with hating on HD unless you still have a tube TV still.
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vhs is where iz at.
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Pretty much everyone filming SD is using a VX, maybe there's a few stragglers with panasonics I don't know.
A new HD camcorder or hdslr comes out every few months and everyone's on different wavelengths. It can look shitty if the frame rates not quite right or they don't have a rig that lets them film smoothly, but when HD is done right I don't think there's any question that it's leagues better. There's just more technical shit to worry about, people are only going to get better at filming with them and I'm sure everyone will be converted in no time.
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vhs is where iz at.
PWBC knows.
GANGBANGING AT GROUND ZERO (http://vimeo.com/21457877)
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HD can look good, but only a few people have yet managed to do so.
I concur with this assessment.
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bring back hi8 or maybe vhs-c.
seriously though you guys are idiots for debating this to death, in another year or two sd will be history and people here will be complaining about the next thing.
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HD and SD video is shit. Everything should be shot on 16mm film like The End. Why the fuck does everything have to be so fucking gay? You know what is gay? Watching two dudes fucking each other. Everything else isn't really that gay. Unless it's a three or more guys daisy chain fucking each other. Then, that's fucking gayer.
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the only thing i really really miss is the sound of skating because the microphones on a vx1000 produce a classic sound. other mics just sound different. its not bad but its not great.
i think its probably more important to consider what you want your video to say about you and your shop/company before deciding a format because right now it looks like people are just blindly following trends because they see big companies doing it before asking themselves if its really that necessary. i dont think the majority of the people buying HD stuff really need it to get their point across or to show their skating. a simple digital video capturing device with good sound quality would be better. hd or not.
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VX1000 is the best because the colors are great, the sound is awesome, and in the right hands it can be unfuckwithable. I hate HD because the sound is weird, it always seems shaky to me, dont like the bland colors, the fisheye looks strange, and overall i think its just too much.
I agree with much of what you said regarding HD, but it can look super good in the right hands. However, I think a lot of the HD hate is the skaters natural fear of change, and also rationalizing why one still uses a camera thats over fifteen years old. The VX does "get great colors" as people fucking LOVE to say, but most filmers these days set their colors when they film, or do it in post, so that makes the whole "great color" thing irrelevant because you can make a clip have whatever "colors" you want. And for the most part, that effect is achieved by white-balancing on light blue, which just makes everything golden, not really natural at all.
I like the sound a VX gets the best. Awesome clarity on ollie snapping, rolling wheels, metal on metal sounds, etc.
I love the VX1000, but if you want to work as a skateboarder filmer, you better upgrade.
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I think the frame ratio of the vx works better with fish eye.
seeing as skating/skaters are essentially thin and tall the fisheye gives a closer coverage of the skater
when being filmed. with hd being more panoramic you have to be a bit further away so as not chop the head
off whoever your filming.
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I think the frame ratio of the vx works better with fish eye.
seeing as skating/skaters are essentially thin and tall the fisheye gives a closer coverage of the skater
when being filmed. with hd being more panoramic you have to be a bit further away so as not chop the head
off whoever your filming.
Which also gives you the problem of having too much "dead space" (while filming a line with a 16x9 fisheye).
I?m actually using the HPX170 (the upgraded HVX200) and all i gots to say is: AMAZING! I remember watching some random raw DV clips and thought something was wrong because it looked so pixelated and bland. Don?t get me wrong, i love the VX1000/MK1 combo and i?ll try to use it as much as i can but HD is taking over the biz and soon everybody?s gotta upgrade their gear.
I think people stick to the VX1000 because of its nostalgic value, 4x3 fisheye, sound and the easiness of setting it up. But i?m 100% sure someone will soon find the perfect mic or mic settings for other cameras, haha.
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HD just doesn't seem to capture the speed right. Anyone else notice this? It seems like it's slowed down or just doesn't look right to me.
VX1000 is definitely still king until someone fixes this.
A lot of the HD stuff is shot at 24 (technically 23.98) progressive frames per second, so the motion looks slightly stuttered like film. VX1000 shoots at 30 interlaced frames per second (technically 29.97). Each interlaced frame is made up of 2 (interlaced) fields...a bottom filed and a top field. There are 480 lines of horizontal resolution on a nonHD tv and each line alternates feilds upper lower upper lower. The TV shows the image it writes all of the bottom fields then the top fields. This makes motion look really smooth.
Furthermore you'll see more Slomo stuff in HD. VX footage looks bad in slomo because at best all an editing program can do is try to blend frames to create the new frames necessary to slomo a clip. All the cameras that people are using now can shoot twice the normal frames per second giving you a really smooth crisp looking slomo.
A lot of that stuff also looks weird because dudes are shooting a lot of 24p then inserting it into 30fps sequences, so the computer has to create frames to make things sync correctly. the transworld dudes are especially bad with this cuz they shoot in the cameras overcrank mode which is a 24p based workflow. The best looking hd for skating is when dudes shoot interlaced and not progressive scan HD, i think this preserves the look of skating that we're all accustomed too. but progressive scan is the hot shit in HD and it takes a whole lot less drive space then shooting interlaced.
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^
Fucking truth! Footage done in 60i (basically 30 fps interlaced) looks really really good. I just tried a piece doing 30p but the action doesn't get captured very well.
One thing the thread doesn't really go into is that there's not just SD vs HD, there's SD vs. HDV, single or multiple CMOS chips, internal compression/artifacts (or lack therof) depending on the rig, and a shit ton of other stuff. It's like saying "Ford vs. Chevy" but not picking out particular car models to compare/contrast.
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HD just doesn't seem to capture the speed right. Anyone else notice this? It seems like it's slowed down or just doesn't look right to me.
VX1000 is definitely still king until someone fixes this.
A lot of the HD stuff is shot at 24 (technically 23.98) progressive frames per second, so the motion looks slightly stuttered like film. VX1000 shoots at 30 interlaced frames per second (technically 29.97). Each interlaced frame is made up of 2 (interlaced) fields...a bottom filed and a top field. There are 480 lines of horizontal resolution on a nonHD tv and each line alternates feilds upper lower upper lower. The TV shows the image it writes all of the bottom fields then the top fields. This makes motion look really smooth.
Furthermore you'll see more Slomo stuff in HD. VX footage looks bad in slomo because at best all an editing program can do is try to blend frames to create the new frames necessary to slomo a clip. All the cameras that people are using now can shoot twice the normal frames per second giving you a really smooth crisp looking slomo.
I don't really know how they are editing their stuff, but yeah it's not exactly gonna look good to add 3:2 pulldown in your editor (Final Cut Pro does a horrible job of this). Best way of telling if they're doing it that way is to go frame by frame through a video and you should see 3 good looking frames followed by 2 "janky" ones that were created by splitting 2 different frames and combinging them into a new frame. But yeah, If you like the natural motion look like SD skate stuff looks, you gotta shoot interlaced (ie 1080i).
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HD is absolutely amazing.
The only reason why it looks weird sometimes is because the filmer doesnt know what he's doing.
backing HD 100%
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The only thing I have against HD is the huge file sizes/memory it takes to edit and the abuse of slow motion videos. Besides that, all I care about is how got damn crispy it looks on a big screen.
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VHS/Hi8
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^
Fucking truth! Footage done in 60i (basically 30 fps interlaced) looks really really good. I just tried a piece doing 30p but the action doesn't get captured very well.
One thing the thread doesn't really go into is that there's not just SD vs HD, there's SD vs. HDV, single or multiple CMOS chips, internal compression/artifacts (or lack therof) depending on the rig, and a shit ton of other stuff. It's like saying "Ford vs. Chevy" but not picking out particular car models to compare/contrast.
exactly. unlike shooting SD with a vx1000 where you are locked into a timebase, HD is capable of looking filmic(24fps), video like(60 fps) or a mix of the two(30 fps). Damning HD as a whole because you prefer the look of an obsolete camera(vx1000) is an ignorant statement. I do agree that HD gets abused more often than not but you can't fight the future, HD has already taken over.
These dudes have a good insight on shooting with the new stuff:
Already Been Done presents: Toy Machine Brainwash Offcuts (http://vimeo.com/24207771)
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Strobeck makes HD look good.
No, That Is the Title (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2L62PoKFkI&feature=related#ws)
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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.
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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.
Nope. wrong on both accounts.
Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.
Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's. There's no quality loss.
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Fuck the bullshit. Real filmers only use super 16mm cameras.
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Fuck the bullshit. Real filmers only use super 16mm cameras.
fuck 16mm,real og's only roll with kinamos.
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This is how I film all my videos...it's pretty sick.
(http://www.mantasjockus.de/zwischen/Rig.jpg)
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I havent seen true HD in a HD Tv yet.. but as far it comes to internet and shit, almost all HD footy just look like fuckin ads. Maybe its just because Im used to parts in SD and ads in HD, but when I watch skateboardin I want it to look down to earth, so it can look fun. HD is so crispy that it seems like some blockbuster shit, that all has been set up.. parts looking like ads.
Theres so much shit to keep you from enjoying the flow of the skateboarding
Aspect ratio sucks for skateboarding as well.. there is no arguing about that.
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VHS/Hi8
yes
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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.
Nope. wrong on both accounts.
Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.
Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's. There's no quality loss.
...HDV. Less buffering and compression than solid state or HDD cams, plus your old tapes can get reused.
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I always believed one of the main selling points of the VX1000 vs all other cameras was the Audio.
I can't stand hearing the "thunk clunk" of other cameras. VX1000 makes skateboarding sound good and thats a huge part of the enjoyment of videos.
Regardless of that it's the videographer that makes or breaks the deal. He could be using a 20,000trillion pixel Sony terabeast but if he can't make something look interesting it's all for naught.
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I always believed one of the main selling points of the VX1000 vs all other cameras was the Audio.
I can't stand hearing the "thunk clunk" of other cameras. VX1000 makes skateboarding sound good and thats a huge part of the enjoyment of videos.
Regardless of that it's the videographer that makes or breaks the deal. He could be using a 20,000trillion pixel Sony terabeast but if he can't make something look interesting it's all for naught.
^^this is all correct.
and... the french fred shot is sick. are you actually french? if so, is your name fred?
k
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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.
Nope. wrong on both accounts.
Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.
Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's. There's no quality loss.
Honestly I sort of forgot HDV was even around. It was such a pain in the ass to have to deal with it when it first came on the scene (b/c the Long-GOP compression) that it really didn't gain too much traction. When tapeless formats with AVCHD and DVCPro HD came out a few years later it was sort of the end for HDV.
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sd or hd, any footy i put out blows minds.
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Shut the fuck up buddy boy
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i am a vx guy. but sadly it's time to get on with the program...vx already been discontinued a wile ago.
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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.
Nope. wrong on both accounts.
Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.
Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's. There's no quality loss.
True.
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footage is gay
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sd or hd, any footy i put out blows minds.
(http://gettingoutinarlington.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/get-out.jpg)
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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.
Nope. wrong on both accounts.
Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.
Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's. There's no quality loss.
Honestly I sort of forgot HDV was even around. It was such a pain in the ass to have to deal with it when it first came on the scene (b/c the Long-GOP compression) that it really didn't gain too much traction. When tapeless formats with AVCHD and DVCPro HD came out a few years later it was sort of the end for HDV.
I dunno man, I've seen that all of the consumer and consumer-leaning prosumer HDV cams aren't in any of the stores, but B&H has a shitload of them, and they seem to increase in number the higher up you go towards professional-grade. Kind've like Beta... consumers got suckered into using VHS because of Sony marketing magic, yet Beta is still used in the industry side regularly.
You're right on though... there's a Best Buy right by my house and they don't have any HD cams that use tape. I wouldn't want to use anything else... hell, even if the cam stops recording correctly I could still convert it over as a tape backup for data!
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my main complaint with hd is its abuse in editing, maybe cause they didn't waste time uploading a reviewing tapes, they have free time to slo mo everything and do wierd color correction
other than that, i love canon slr's and its footage
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take a HD panasonic hvx200, have it shoot in 4:3, and make an original MK1 death lens fit on it. that is what would work for HD.
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those GoPros are pretty fun....
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I dunno man, I've seen that all of the consumer and consumer-leaning prosumer HDV cams aren't in any of the stores, but B&H has a shitload of them, and they seem to increase in number the higher up you go towards professional-grade. Kind've like Beta... consumers got suckered into using VHS because of Sony marketing magic, yet Beta is still used in the industry side regularly.
You're right on though... there's a Best Buy right by my house and they don't have any HD cams that use tape. I wouldn't want to use anything else... hell, even if the cam stops recording correctly I could still convert it over as a tape backup for data!
Sony had shite all to do with VHS, which was backed by JVC. VHS won that format war because porn was allowed to be readily available on VHS and that there were more films available for rent on VHS. Beta was the better, more reliable format which is why it's still the industry standard, allbeit in digital form these days. Similarly, Sony were opposed to porn being available via BluRay, but when HD DVD (which was itself a better format) entered the battle, making porn available this time round became a no-brainer for Sony- basically any camera, format, medium, technique, etc. which the porn industry adopts is bound to be king.
As I see it, the thing with the over-abuse of slow-mo HD in recent years for me is simply down to chaps trying to stretch out a day's worth of footage to fill 3 minutes, hence the tedious cliched shots of homie setting up a board in slow-mo, eating in slow-mo, laughing in slow-mo, etc. Recent radness like Dylan Rieder's Gravis part, any of the recent Cliche ads or Hold Tight Henry's work in the past 2 years doesn't suffer by virtue of what they're shot on. Ultimately, any video guy who knows what he's doing will produce good footage, whether it's VHS-C, Super 8, Red or Imax. If you don't have the eye for it, you're fucked.
Just my extra nerdy 2c worth...
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I dunno man, I've seen that all of the consumer and consumer-leaning prosumer HDV cams aren't in any of the stores, but B&H has a shitload of them, and they seem to increase in number the higher up you go towards professional-grade. Kind've like Beta... consumers got suckered into using VHS because of Sony marketing magic, yet Beta is still used in the industry side regularly.
You're right on though... there's a Best Buy right by my house and they don't have any HD cams that use tape. I wouldn't want to use anything else... hell, even if the cam stops recording correctly I could still convert it over as a tape backup for data!
Sony had shite all to do with VHS, which was backed by JVC. VHS won that format war because porn was allowed to be readily available on VHS and that there were more films available for rent on VHS. Beta was the better, more reliable format which is why it's still the industry standard, allbeit in digital form these days. Similarly, Sony were opposed to porn being available via BluRay, but when HD DVD (which was itself a better format) entered the battle, making porn available this time round became a no-brainer for Sony- basically any camera, format, medium, technique, etc. which the porn industry adopts is bound to be king.
As I see it, the thing with the over-abuse of slow-mo HD in recent years for me is simply down to chaps trying to stretch out a day's worth of footage to fill 3 minutes, hence the tedious cliched shots of homie setting up a board in slow-mo, eating in slow-mo, laughing in slow-mo, etc. Recent radness like Dylan Rieder's Gravis part, any of the recent Cliche ads or Hold Tight Henry's work in the past 2 years doesn't suffer by virtue of what they're shot on. Ultimately, any video guy who knows what he's doing will produce good footage, whether it's VHS-C, Super 8, Red or Imax. If you don't have the eye for it, you're fucked.
Just my extra nerdy 2c worth...
i hope you were joking about the whole porn thing, Vhs won because sony wouldn't license Beta to anyone, JVC licesensed the technology to
everyone which is why it won the format war.
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Taking sides in regards to the SD vs HD during this shift in skateboard cinematography is silly. If you look at it from a 'craft' perspective and are a true photographer/cinematographer, you'd be casting yourself out only sticking to one. It is important to have a full understanding of both in my opinion. Some people produce really bad VX1-MK1 footage, Some people produce really, really bad HD footage. Some marry the two together very well, as we've all seen. If you're just a viewer well, everyone who has been skating for a while has a trained eye when it comes to VX-1000 footage. Like it or not. Who know's how many hours we've all seen from the very first clip you saw and so on. I think that's why some people may not be as accepting to the HD outputs that are 'actually' well produced, As they've been so accustomed to the 1000 FOREVER. Which is fine!
The one thing that irks me the most about skateboarding related high-definition footage these days isn't really in the raw footage per-say. It's the guys who throw all their footage into color correction (Apple color, Color corrector 3-way etc) with what I assume is little to no knowledge whatsoever about color correction, and then start going dog-shit-rodeo on all the dials, pretty graphs & colorful buttons. I'm excited to see what's in the pipeline for HD and where great grandpa SD will end up in the near future.
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I own a HD camera, so I'm naturally prone to take that side, but...
most HD cameras give you the option to shoot SD as well.
Where is the debate?
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\
D'Oh, I had Sony confused with... pretty much everyone else, haha. Thanks for the correction.