HD & SD footage Debates

[natenola forever]

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HD just doesn't seem to capture the speed right. Anyone else notice this? It seems like it's slowed down or just doesn't look right to me.


VX1000 is definitely still king until someone fixes this.

[close]

A lot of the HD stuff is shot at 24 (technically 23.98) progressive frames per second, so the motion looks slightly stuttered like film.  VX1000 shoots at 30 interlaced frames per second (technically 29.97).  Each interlaced frame is made up of 2 (interlaced) fields...a bottom filed and a top field.  There are 480 lines of horizontal resolution on a nonHD tv and each line alternates feilds upper lower upper lower.  The TV shows the image it writes all of the bottom fields then the top fields.  This makes motion look really smooth.

Furthermore you'll see more Slomo stuff in HD.  VX footage looks bad in slomo because at best all an editing program can do is try to blend frames to create the new frames necessary to slomo a clip.  All the cameras  that people are using now can shoot twice the normal frames per second giving you a really smooth crisp looking slomo.

A lot of that stuff also looks weird because dudes are shooting a lot of 24p then inserting it into 30fps sequences, so the computer has to create frames to make things sync correctly. the transworld dudes are especially bad with this cuz they shoot in the cameras overcrank mode which is a 24p based workflow. The best looking hd for skating is when dudes shoot interlaced and not progressive scan HD, i think this preserves the look of skating that we're all accustomed too. but progressive scan is the hot shit in HD and it takes a whole lot less drive space then shooting interlaced.

[grimcity]

^
Fucking truth! Footage done in 60i (basically 30 fps interlaced) looks really really good. I just tried a piece doing 30p but the action doesn't get captured very well.

One thing the thread doesn't really go into is that there's not just SD vs HD, there's SD vs. HDV, single or multiple CMOS chips, internal compression/artifacts (or lack therof) depending on the rig, and a shit ton of other stuff. It's like saying "Ford vs. Chevy" but not picking out particular car models to compare/contrast.

[mattyc]

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HD just doesn't seem to capture the speed right. Anyone else notice this? It seems like it's slowed down or just doesn't look right to me.


VX1000 is definitely still king until someone fixes this.

[close]

A lot of the HD stuff is shot at 24 (technically 23.98) progressive frames per second, so the motion looks slightly stuttered like film.  VX1000 shoots at 30 interlaced frames per second (technically 29.97).  Each interlaced frame is made up of 2 (interlaced) fields...a bottom filed and a top field.  There are 480 lines of horizontal resolution on a nonHD tv and each line alternates feilds upper lower upper lower.  The TV shows the image it writes all of the bottom fields then the top fields.  This makes motion look really smooth.

Furthermore you'll see more Slomo stuff in HD.  VX footage looks bad in slomo because at best all an editing program can do is try to blend frames to create the new frames necessary to slomo a clip.  All the cameras  that people are using now can shoot twice the normal frames per second giving you a really smooth crisp looking slomo.

[close]

A lot of that stuff also looks weird because dudes are shooting a lot of 24p then inserting it into 30fps sequences, so the computer has to create frames to make things sync correctly. the transworld dudes are especially bad with this cuz they shoot in the cameras overcrank mode which is a 24p based workflow. The best looking hd for skating is when dudes shoot interlaced and not progressive scan HD, i think this preserves the look of skating that we're all accustomed too. but progressive scan is the hot shit in HD and it takes a whole lot less drive space then shooting interlaced.

I don't really know how they are editing their stuff, but yeah it's not exactly gonna look good to add 3:2 pulldown in your editor (Final Cut Pro does a horrible job of this).   Best way of telling if they're doing it that way is to go frame by frame through a video and you should see 3 good looking frames followed by 2 "janky" ones that were created by splitting 2 different frames and combinging them into a new frame.  But yeah, If you like the natural motion look like SD skate stuff looks, you gotta shoot interlaced (ie 1080i).

[life support]

HD is absolutely amazing.
The only reason why it looks weird sometimes is because the filmer doesnt know what he's doing.

backing HD 100%

[RajeevWins]

The only thing I have against HD is the huge file sizes/memory it takes to edit and the abuse of slow motion videos. Besides that, all I care about is how got damn crispy it looks on a big screen.

[Doogie Howser Ph.D.]

VHS/Hi8

[ruiner2]

^
Fucking truth! Footage done in 60i (basically 30 fps interlaced) looks really really good. I just tried a piece doing 30p but the action doesn't get captured very well.

One thing the thread doesn't really go into is that there's not just SD vs HD, there's SD vs. HDV, single or multiple CMOS chips, internal compression/artifacts (or lack therof) depending on the rig, and a shit ton of other stuff. It's like saying "Ford vs. Chevy" but not picking out particular car models to compare/contrast.

exactly. unlike shooting SD with a vx1000 where you are locked into a timebase, HD is capable of looking filmic(24fps), video like(60 fps) or a mix of the two(30 fps). Damning HD as a whole because you prefer the look of an obsolete camera(vx1000) is an ignorant statement. I do agree that HD gets abused more often than not but you can't fight the future, HD has already taken over.
These dudes have a good insight on shooting with the new stuff:

[Hatechild]

Strobeck makes HD look good.

[elemire125]

You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.

[mattyc]

You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.

Nope. wrong on both accounts. 

Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.

Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's.  There's no quality loss.

[Kristi Yamaguchi]

Fuck the bullshit. Real filmers only use super 16mm cameras.

[Manolo]

Fuck the bullshit. Real filmers only use super 16mm cameras.

fuck 16mm,real og's only roll with kinamos.

[poocrusher]

This is how I film all my videos...it's pretty sick.

[brazillionaire]

I havent seen true HD in a HD Tv yet.. but as far it comes to internet and shit, almost all HD footy just look like fuckin ads. Maybe its just because Im used to parts in SD and ads in HD, but when I watch skateboardin I want it to look down to earth, so it can look fun. HD is so crispy that it seems like some blockbuster shit, that all has been set up.. parts looking like ads.
Theres so much shit to keep you from enjoying the flow of the skateboarding

Aspect ratio sucks for skateboarding as well.. there is no arguing about that.

[Fenzadill]

VHS/Hi8

yes

[grimcity]

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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.

[close]

Nope. wrong on both accounts. 

Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.

Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's.  There's no quality loss.

...HDV. Less buffering and compression than solid state or HDD cams, plus your old tapes can get reused.

[FrenchFuck]

I always believed one of the main selling points of the VX1000 vs all other cameras was the Audio.

I can't stand hearing the "thunk clunk" of other cameras. VX1000 makes skateboarding sound good and thats a huge part of the enjoyment of videos.

Regardless of that it's the videographer that makes or breaks the deal. He could be using a 20,000trillion pixel Sony terabeast but if he can't make something look interesting it's all for naught.

[kamltoe]

I always believed one of the main selling points of the VX1000 vs all other cameras was the Audio.

I can't stand hearing the "thunk clunk" of other cameras. VX1000 makes skateboarding sound good and thats a huge part of the enjoyment of videos.

Regardless of that it's the videographer that makes or breaks the deal. He could be using a 20,000trillion pixel Sony terabeast but if he can't make something look interesting it's all for naught.

^^this is all correct.

and... the french fred shot is sick. are you actually french? if so, is your name fred?

k

[mattyc]

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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.

[close]

Nope. wrong on both accounts. 

Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.

Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's.  There's no quality loss.

[close]

...HDV. Less buffering and compression than solid state or HDD cams, plus your old tapes can get reused.

Honestly I sort of forgot HDV was even around.  It was such a pain in the ass to have to deal with it when it first came on the scene (b/c the Long-GOP compression) that it really didn't gain too much traction.  When tapeless formats with AVCHD and DVCPro HD came out a few years later it was sort of the end for HDV.

[ChildOfTheBurbs]

sd or hd, any footy i put out blows minds.

[Doogie Howser Ph.D.]

Shut the fuck up buddy boy

[vince the stud]

i am a vx guy. but sadly it's time to get on with the program...vx already been discontinued a wile ago.

[elemire125]

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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.

[close]

Nope. wrong on both accounts. 

Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.

Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's.  There's no quality loss.

True.

[dankradschwag]

footage is gay

[finknoos]

sd or hd, any footy i put out blows minds.

[grimcity]

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You save money not having to buy MiniDV tapes when you film in HD. It also seems that whenever you upload SD footage from a tape the quality decreases.

[close]

Nope. wrong on both accounts. 

Solid state media=Expensive as hell, and It takes you hella long to recoup the cost in DV tape savings.

Capturing footage from your DV camera is simply copying 1's and 0's.  There's no quality loss.

[close]

...HDV. Less buffering and compression than solid state or HDD cams, plus your old tapes can get reused.

[close]

Honestly I sort of forgot HDV was even around.  It was such a pain in the ass to have to deal with it when it first came on the scene (b/c the Long-GOP compression) that it really didn't gain too much traction.  When tapeless formats with AVCHD and DVCPro HD came out a few years later it was sort of the end for HDV.

I dunno man, I've seen that all of the consumer and consumer-leaning prosumer HDV cams aren't in any of the stores, but B&H has a shitload of them, and they seem to increase in number the higher up you go towards professional-grade. Kind've like Beta... consumers got suckered into using VHS because of Sony marketing magic, yet Beta is still used in the industry side regularly.

You're right on though... there's a Best Buy right by my house and they don't have any HD cams that use tape. I wouldn't want to use anything else... hell, even if the cam stops recording correctly I could still convert it over as a tape backup for data!

[TwisT]

my main complaint with hd is its abuse in editing, maybe cause they didn't waste time uploading a reviewing tapes, they have free time to slo mo everything and do wierd color correction

other than that, i love canon slr's and its footage

[mandibleclaw]

take a HD panasonic hvx200, have it shoot in 4:3, and make an original MK1 death lens fit on it.  that is what would work for HD.

[cool spot]

those GoPros are pretty fun....

[ciaran]

I dunno man, I've seen that all of the consumer and consumer-leaning prosumer HDV cams aren't in any of the stores, but B&H has a shitload of them, and they seem to increase in number the higher up you go towards professional-grade. Kind've like Beta... consumers got suckered into using VHS because of Sony marketing magic, yet Beta is still used in the industry side regularly.

You're right on though... there's a Best Buy right by my house and they don't have any HD cams that use tape. I wouldn't want to use anything else... hell, even if the cam stops recording correctly I could still convert it over as a tape backup for data!

Sony had shite all to do with VHS, which was backed by JVC.  VHS won that format war because porn was allowed to be readily available on VHS and that there were more films available for rent on VHS.  Beta was the better, more reliable format which is why it's still the industry standard, allbeit in digital form these days.   Similarly, Sony were opposed to porn being available via BluRay, but when HD DVD (which was itself a better format) entered the battle, making porn available this time round became a no-brainer for Sony- basically any camera, format, medium, technique, etc. which the porn industry adopts is bound to be king.

As I see it, the thing with the over-abuse of slow-mo HD in recent years for me is simply down to chaps trying to stretch out a day's worth of footage to fill 3 minutes, hence the tedious cliched shots of homie setting up a board in slow-mo, eating in slow-mo, laughing in slow-mo, etc.   Recent radness like Dylan Rieder's Gravis part, any of the recent Cliche ads or Hold Tight Henry's work in the past 2 years doesn't suffer by virtue of what they're shot on.   Ultimately, any video guy who knows what he's doing will produce good footage, whether it's VHS-C, Super 8, Red or Imax.  If you don't have the eye for it, you're fucked.

Just my extra nerdy 2c worth...