Israel's right to exist

[OldieButFrenchie]

allright this is where you can make your case. For those who think a Jewish state has no right to exist, well explain your point.
My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.
2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
3 : to explain my position a bit more, I have thought a lot about this conflict because France has Europe's largest Jewish AND muslim population. I have friends on both sides and unfortunately this conflict resonates in France a lot. We even had crazy fanatics like Mohammed Merah gunning down 8 year old kids in front of a Jewish school.

Finally: let's try to keep this civilized. 

Edit: totally forgot to explain this discussion started in the Ryan Lay Palestine thread

[JANUS]

Finally: let's try to keep this civilized. 

Good luck.

[Deputy Wendell]

speak in absolutes much?

but, i'll bite...how do you defend something's "right to exist" when its existence has meant such clear, consistent, and vicious attrition of what was there before?

[JudoOrigami]

just let them scrap it out in the streets

[OldieButFrenchie]

First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.

Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.

BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.

Edit: I gotta leave the computer, I'll be back tomorrow. Also, I can't believe I'm still getting kooked over this. Not sure if it's hilarious or sad.

[Deputy Wendell]

First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.

Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.

BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.

yeah, like i said, i'm not one for absolutes, so i think Israel has a "right to exist," it's just that the site that was chosen/created after WWII has proven to be a disastrous site for them to do so.

i think you present a fine academic argument--too bad it's not that easy on the ground to displace and dispossess people from the places where they are born, raised, and from where their families are from, right?

and then there's your point about past generations of conquerors, and...shit...what's your point? Palestine needs to answer for those 700 years you mention? or because of that, they deserve it? huh?

[Deputy Wendell]

First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.

Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.

BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.

Edit: I gotta leave the computer, I'll be back tomorrow. Also, I can't believe I'm still getting kooked over this. Not sure if it's hilarious or sad.

i wouldn't kook you, even if i could man--i teach at the university level, and i'm glad that some of my students continue to choose this topic when writing their researched argument papers...

[Alan]

Edit: I gotta leave the computer, I'll be back tomorrow.

Off to a Rassemblement national meeting?

[OldieButFrenchie]

Expand Quote

First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.

Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.

BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.

[close]

yeah, like i said, i'm not one for absolutes, so i think Israel has a "right to exist," the site that was chose/created after WWII has proven to be a disastrous place site for them to do so.

i think you present a fine academic argument--too bad it's not that easy on the ground to displace and dispossess people from the places where they are born, raised, and from where their families are from, right?

and then there's your point about past generations of conquerors, and...shit...what's your point? Palestine needs to answer for those 700 years you mention? or because of that, they deserve it? huh?

I'm trying to give some context is all. I'm a history buff, I love reading about it and the Earth's history is just a long succession of conquests. Honestly how many people think colonization was only ever practiced by the west? How many people know Spain was colonized? Or how big the Turkish empire was?
Basically I support a 2 state solution and apparently so do you so I guess we agree to some extent. Allright I really gotta go this time.....

[Alan]

i think you present a fine academic argument--too bad it's not that easy on the ground to displace and dispossess people from the places where they are born, raised, and from where their families are from, right?

It's not even academic. It's just pub-level ranting veiled in polite language.

[Ok]

Shoutout for starting the thread.
The expansion is indefensible.
As a history buff I am sure you are well aware of the natural diaspora of peoples.
I fucking hate bullies. I haven’t been able to see this a different way.
I’ve gone online and it’s hard to find thought pieces that are not just shouting.

[weon]

What a weird thread topic. What prompted you to talk specifically about Israel’s right to exist, as opposed to, let’s say, continued human rights violations and war crimes in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, largely funded by the US?

As far as right to exist, well, it exists now so there really is no upside in turning the clock back. Was carving out some land and giving it to a prosecuted people a good idea? Might have seemed so at the time, but it ensued a series of conflicts that have not ceased for over half a century. Now, Israel is absolutely a horrible, belligerent, and oppressive state towards the Palestinian minority—and the US govt loves them. The state of Israel needs major reform if any solution is to be reached, and I do think its creation has had one of the worst outcomes stemming from a UN decision.

Like I said, its right to exist was solidified the second it was created. The Israeli state sucks, that is undeniable, but dismantling it would only cause more troubles for everyone involved. Israeli people deserve safety and happiness too, just not at the cost and on the backs of Palestinians’. All the UN did was re-home one group of refugees and create another...

[JANUS]

So far, this is more civilized than I anticipated.

[OldieButFrenchie]

What a weird thread topic. What prompted you to talk specifically about Israel’s right to exist, as opposed to, let’s say, continued human rights violations and war crimes in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, largely funded by the US?

As far as right to exist, well, it exists now so there really is no upside in turning the clock back. Was carving out some land and giving it to a prosecuted people a good idea? Might have seemed so at the time, but it ensued a series of conflicts that have not ceased for over half a century. Now, Israel is absolutely a horrible, belligerent, and oppressive state towards the Palestinian minority—and the US govt loves them. The state of Israel needs major reform if any solution is to be reached, and I do think its creation has had one of the worst outcomes stemming from a UN decision.

Like I said, its right to exist was solidified the second it was created. The Israeli state sucks, that is undeniable, but dismantling it would only cause more troubles for everyone involved. Israeli people deserve safety and happiness too, just not at the cost and on the backs of Palestinians’. All the UN did was re-home one group of refugees and create another...

quick answer cause I forgot to explain: this discussion started in the Ryan Lay Palestine thread. Which I did not want to hijack. So maybe look there first.

Edit: holy shit I just made it to Pal status! what a weird thread to do it with...ah fuck it it's done, damn lockdown making me act weird. allright gotta log off for tonight, for good this time, see y'all tomorrow.

[no name cargos plug]

I don’t think any state has a “right to exist”. Land is taken by force by governments and armies that don’t actually represent the people living within the borders. And what are borders if not a global caste system. Fuck all that noise.

That said some states/countries are worse than others and Israel is on some straight villain shit.

[4LOM]

Framing it in rights-talk without a philosophical foundation leads to argumentative impasse.
If someone affirms Israel's right and the other denies, there's no way to decide between them without:

Define rights, specifically right to exist
Evidence that nations are the types of entities that have rights, specifically right to exist
Evidence that Israel is (or is not) such a nation.

Then we can conclude whether Israel has a right to exist (or not).

A theological/contract argument is easier:

If they obey God's 600+ laws, then they have a claim to the land
They do not obey God's 600+ laws
So, they don't have a claim to the land

[EdLawndale]

speak in absolutes much?

but, i'll bite...how do you defend something's "right to exist" when its existence has meant such clear, consistent, and vicious attrition of what was there before?

Is your sig gif from "The Battle of Algiers"?

[legion]

TLDR
FREE GAZA!!!

[pointandclick]

split it in half evenly?

[Deputy Wendell]

Expand Quote

speak in absolutes much?

but, i'll bite...how do you defend something's "right to exist" when its existence has meant such clear, consistent, and vicious attrition of what was there before?

[close]

Is your sig gif from "The Battle of Algiers"?

yes

[TheLurper]

I thought Jared Kushner fixed this whole situation after reading a whole 25 books.

[iKobrakai]

The entire region is fucked for life.

[OldieButFrenchie]

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[AnotherHardDayAtTheOffice]

I think my main problem with discussions of this kind is that people tend to either fall into the pro-Palestine or the pro-Israel camp. However, this is a regional conflict that is too complex to be turned into a simple binary issue. I'm also surprised how "outsiders" (and let's face it, we're all outsiders and this is not "our cause") often take very firm stances on a conflict that a) doesn't affect them directly and b) they don't know too much about. I don't claim to know much about that conflict either, but I feel like the more I learn, the more questions pop up and the more clear answers vanish into thin air.

Platitudes aside, obviously, Palestinian Arabs, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have been living in the area for a while nowa and no sensible solution can involve another displacement of people. However, I feel like a one-state solution is off the table and the two-state solution that many advisors have favored for many years is undermined both by radical Palestinian groups and the current right-wing Israeli government. Two of the major obstacles to peace are Israeli settlements in the West Bank (most of them illegal according to the UN) and groups like Hamas that are trying to escalate the conflict even further. Then there are also severe human rights abuses by IDF in the West Bank and the infamous corruption of the Palestinian National Authority.

When I travelled through Israel and the West Bank a few years ago, I also saw the many specific regional conflicts that won't be resolved any time soon. For example, in Hebron/Al-Khalil, a major city in the West Bank, you have the tomb of Abraham, which is holy to Judaism and Islam. The tomb is part of a religious building that used to be a mosque only (Al-Ibrahimi Mosque). After a radical Jewish settler killed dozens of people in an attack, the mosque was closed by the Israeli authorities. When it re-opened, it turned out that half of it was turned into a synagogue. Hebron itself is a divided city with a strictly Arab area (Zone H1) and Zone H2, which is populated by both Arabs and Jewish settlers, but effectively controlled by IDF and settlers. Al-Shahuda Street, once the main market in Hebron, is closed to Palestinians and effectively a ghost town today. I can't see how both parties could resolve that conflict. And that's just ONE city in the West Bank.

General questions I ask myself are: Which role should we as outsiders even play in this conflict? Is it even our business? Do we have a right to tell either party what to do? If we discuss this from an international point of view, shouldn't we tread lightly instead of escalating this conflict further? Does this conflict even need more escalation? I think it's also crucial to keep in mind that people on both sides have lost family members in this conflict. This is also deeply personal (for better or worse), which makes it even harder to respond to.

[OldieButFrenchie]

thanks for a balanced and well thought-out post. especially interesting as you actually traveled there. The closest I got personnaly was the Sinai desert, where my mind was blown to see Israeli tourists with egyptian temporary licence plates covering the Israeli one. I never had thought Israelis would go to Egypt for tourism. That was in 2005 though, not sure it still does happen.

Anyways I totally agree with your statements, we are outsiders in this. I agree all the more since, like I said before, this conflict is being imported into France, where Jewish and Arab communities face each other with increasing distrust and unfortunately, hatred. It's fucking sad. I'm over 40 and it did not use to be that way. There have been multiple attacks on French Jews in the last 20 years and they all came from French arabs, reacting to a confllict that does not affect them at all.
On a lighter note, I really recommend reading "The Arab of the Future" graphic novel, by Riad Sattouf. The author is half-French half Syrian and he grew up in the Middle East. Those books tell the tale of his childhood between France, Syria and Lybia and it's just as funny as it is interesting. A compelling read. Actually everything Sattouf does is awesome.

[Deputy Wendell]

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

first, regarding your comment above regarding that crystal clear map--it is not "misleading," it does not say that Israel existed in 1946, it says clearly "Jewish Land" and then "Israeli Land" after 1947, which obviously are two corresponding geographical points on one historical/political trajectory.

regarding the bolded section above, why do you keep making this kind of rhetorical move? what does the Turks being there before, do for your argument? what do you want us all to take away from your comment regarding France's appetites, insecurities, and actions based off of the fact that "Algeria...wasn't a free country before the French came"? And how will this point--since you brought it up in this thread--help the rest of us understand "Israel's right to exist" when it is so absolutely at the expense of a population of people who had been there before it existed.

[AnotherHardDayAtTheOffice]

Expand Quote

well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.

As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.

Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.

Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.

[close]

first, regarding your comment above regarding that crystal clear map--it is not "misleading," it does not say that Israel existed in 1946, it says clearly "Jewish Land" and then "Israeli Land" after 1947, which obviously are two corresponding geographical points on one historical/political trajectory.

regarding the bolded section above, why do you keep making this kind of rhetorical move? what does the Turks being there before, do for your argument? what do you want us all to take away from your comment regarding France's appetites, insecurities, and actions based off of the fact that "Algeria...wasn't a free country before the French came"? And how will this point--since you brought it up in this thread--help the rest of us understand "Israel's right to exist" when it is so absolutely at the expense of a population of people who had been there before it existed.

Jewish migration to Palestine started in the late 19th century. There were many Jews in Palestine before the state of Israel was founded in 1948. Yes, before the late 19th century, it was mostly Arabs who lived there, but as Frenchie pointed out, it was either the Ottoman Empire or the British who ruled the land. The Jewish population didn't invade a sovereign Palestine. I think this does help to understand why Israel has a right to exist.

That being said, this in no way justifies human rights violations and (illegal) settlements in the West Bank or the displacement of millions of Palestinians. However, it is the baseline for any sensible discussion how Israelis and Palestinians could live in relative peace.

If we don't accept that both Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs have a right to live where they are, what's the point of having any discussion at all? (Even if I don't think that we have a right to define who has a right to live there and who doesn't...)

[Alois Hitler Jr.]

Of course they have right to exist. It’s the way humans work trough the history.
All powerful and most civilised countries build themselves on genocide of the weaker. When they are done with the process then they begin to lecture others about the rules and morals.
When you see genocidal countries in Europe like England, Dutch, Germany, France, Belgium , Portugal , Spain, Italy. They slaughtered people by millions to get rid of them, took the land and resources.
Israel just needs time and soon enough they will become moral vertical in the world.

Unfortunately evil won long time ago.. for example if Carthage beat Rome we would have much different civilisation right now and so on.

[weon]

Wait so you made this thread and now don’t want to discuss anything? Seems to me you just wanted your opinion validated. And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism? So since the Kurds aren’t fighting Israel... no one cares? If so, that is pretty fucked dude. Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.

The UN didn’t get to “carve it out” bc a civil war broke out in 1947 almost immediately after it was implemented and that war led to the creation of israel. The UN resolution on the partitioning of Palestine had been implemented but had to be cancelled. Two-states + jerusalem or something like that. Sounds real nice today...

It is easy to forget that tons of other countries were involved too, such as Britain and the US, in order to keep their interests in the area untouched. So i guess ‘mericans and brits are allowed in the discussion too? Whether they know it or not, they reaped the domestic benefits of their country’s actions abroad. Why do ppl think we shouldn’t discuss this as ardently if we are not immediately affected? Or are you talking more specifically about shouting matches or something? Not to be the “starving children” guy, but people are dying tragically and preventably every single day, not only in the OPT but all over the world—I think we are allowed to feel some type of way about it. It is also good to recognize we are outsiders, but if we didn’t have an opinion on these events, now that would be a bigger problem... Humans are intrinsically emotional, social, and political. Unfortunately sometimes it’s too much to handle for any one person, but we should at least try to engage in difficult topics with our head on our shoulders and our heart on our sleeve every now and then. Genuinely. I’m corny sure, but we can’t put horseblinders on and ignore other peoples’ struggles for our whole lives. Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...

I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.

But also, tons of crazy fucked up shit is said on SLAP by random kooks and even pals. Sometimes you just hit the “Ignore” and move along...

[AnotherHardDayAtTheOffice]

Wait so you made this thread and now don’t want to discuss anything? Seems to me you just wanted your opinion validated. And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism? So since the Kurds aren’t fighting Israel... no one cares? If so, that is pretty fucked dude. Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.

The UN didn’t get to “carve it out” bc a civil war broke out in 1947 almost immediately after it was implemented and that war led to the creation of israel. The UN resolution on the partitioning of Palestine had been implemented but had to be cancelled. Two-states + jerusalem or something like that. Sounds real nice today...

It is easy to forget that tons of other countries were involved too, such as Britain and the US, in order to keep their interests in the area untouched. So i guess ‘mericans and brits are allowed in the discussion too? Whether they know it or not, they reaped the domestic benefits of their country’s actions abroad. Why do ppl think we shouldn’t discuss this as ardently if we are not immediately affected? Or are you talking more specifically about shouting matches or something? Not to be the “starving children” guy, but people are dying tragically and preventably every single day, not only in the OPT but all over the world—I think we are allowed to feel some type of way about it. It is also good to recognize we are outsiders, but if we didn’t have an opinion on these events, now that would be a bigger problem... Humans are intrinsically emotional, social, and political. Unfortunately sometimes it’s too much to handle for any one person, but we should at least try to engage in difficult topics with our head on our shoulders and our heart on our sleeve every now and then. Genuinely. I’m corny sure, but we can’t put horseblinders on and ignore other peoples’ struggles for our whole lives. Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...

I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.

But also, tons of crazy fucked up shit is said on SLAP by random kooks and even pals. Sometimes you just hit the “Ignore” and move along...

I didn't start this thread, but I think with the Middle East conflict, the question is where you set your baseline for a discussion. For example, if one plays the blame game and concludes that Israel shouldn't exist and Jewish people shouldn't live on land they stole from Arabs... then your solution is what exactly? You seem to argue from a humanitarian perspective, which I can perfectly agree with.

However, maybe that's just me, but I've seen a lot of these discussion go awry. And I agree with you 100%, it is important to have an opinion on foreign affairs and I think it is important to hold Israel to certain standards and make clear where they violate UN resolutions and human rights, but on the other hand, it's also important to look at this conflict from Israel's point of view (which in no way means justifying its actions). I also hate when people defend or shrug their shoulders at Russia's discrimination of homosexuals by citing "cultural differences", just to name one example, but I also think that one shouldn't be too quick to tell other countries how to run their business. Because you're right, colonialism is no bueno, and that's kind of a colonial mindset.

And as for Israel being the bad guy, I think Israel is actually a pretty decent liberal democracy within its own borders (albeit decreasingly so), but a brutal occupying force in the West Bank.