Author Topic: FA/Hockey Shapes  (Read 25145 times)

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Xen

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2021, 08:58:41 AM »
I like them but wish the tail was longer. Symmetrical nose and tails are so much easier to skate.

Short wb are the future of skate shapes but I recently sized up to a larger wheelbase and it works better for me. So probably not getting another FA deck for a while because of that

Quasi then? Close to the same, i.e., very square blunt shape but with 14.25"+ WBs
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 09:23:37 AM by Xen »

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2021, 03:00:30 PM »
they only have 1 rider on Ace (Sage) and 1 on Venture (Barnett).
For reference. Does seem like besides, Indy, most of the team rides thunders with venture close behind. With the shorter wb on the decks, I would think thunders would be the most "normal" feeling pairing with the decks but I haven't had an FA in quite some time.

Venture:
Gino
Barnett
Vincent Touzery
Andrew Wilson (not sure if Hockey flow counts)

Thunder:
Tyshawn
Donovon Piscopo
John Fitzgerald
KB
Nak
Dylan (RIP)

Ace:
Sage

Indy:
Everyone else (I think)

CaderSk8r

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2021, 03:28:43 PM »
Expand Quote
they only have 1 rider on Ace (Sage) and 1 on Venture (Barnett).
[close]
For reference. Does seem like besides, Indy, most of the team rides thunders with venture close behind. With the shorter wb on the decks, I would think thunders would be the most "normal" feeling pairing with the decks but I haven't had an FA in quite some time.

Venture:
Gino
Barnett
Vincent Touzery
Andrew Wilson (not sure if Hockey flow counts)

Thunder:
Tyshawn
Donovon Piscopo
John Fitzgerald
KB
Nak
Dylan (RIP)

Ace:
Sage

Indy:
Everyone else (I think)

Diego rides ace

ballintoohard

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2021, 03:33:35 PM »
Expand Quote
they only have 1 rider on Ace (Sage) and 1 on Venture (Barnett).
[close]
For reference. Does seem like besides, Indy, most of the team rides thunders with venture close behind. With the shorter wb on the decks, I would think thunders would be the most "normal" feeling pairing with the decks but I haven't had an FA in quite some time.

Venture:
Gino
Barnett
Vincent Touzery
Andrew Wilson (not sure if Hockey flow counts)

Thunder:
Tyshawn
Donovon Piscopo
John Fitzgerald
KB
Nak
Dylan (RIP)

Ace:
Sage

Indy:
Everyone else (I think)

Indy:
AVE
Dill
Sean Pablo
Nik Stain
Terp
Andrew Allen
Elijah
Louie
Aidan

I thought I saw Gino on Indys in recent clips, but I could be making that up.

CaderSk8r

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2021, 03:39:08 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
they only have 1 rider on Ace (Sage) and 1 on Venture (Barnett).
[close]
For reference. Does seem like besides, Indy, most of the team rides thunders with venture close behind. With the shorter wb on the decks, I would think thunders would be the most "normal" feeling pairing with the decks but I haven't had an FA in quite some time.

Venture:
Gino
Barnett
Vincent Touzery
Andrew Wilson (not sure if Hockey flow counts)

Thunder:
Tyshawn
Donovon Piscopo
John Fitzgerald
KB
Nak
Dylan (RIP)

Ace:
Sage

Indy:
Everyone else (I think)
[close]

Indy:
AVE
Dill
Sean Pablo
Nik Stain
Terp
Andrew Allen
Elijah
Louie
Aidan

I thought I saw Gino on Indys in recent clips, but I could be making that up.

I’d be bummed to see him leave venture after so many years riding them

ballintoohard

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2021, 03:57:16 PM »
AVE and Dill did the same, lots of pros seem to leave their truck sponsor and settle on Indy/Thunder after even despite all the Indy drama on this forum

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2021, 05:24:30 PM »
Expand Quote
I like them but wish the tail was longer. Symmetrical nose and tails are so much easier to skate.

Short wb are the future of skate shapes but I recently sized up to a larger wheelbase and it works better for me. So probably not getting another FA deck for a while because of that
[close]

Quasi then? Close to the same, i.e., very square blunt shape but with 14.25"+ WBs

I love Quasi. Super hard to get up in Canada consistently but I’m always keeping an eye for an 8.38 or 8.5. Had a 8.38 Bledsoe mushroom and I learned so many tricks on it

Mr. Stinky

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2021, 05:26:02 PM »
K Rod is on Ace.

Xen

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2021, 07:11:09 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I like them but wish the tail was longer. Symmetrical nose and tails are so much easier to skate.

Short wb are the future of skate shapes but I recently sized up to a larger wheelbase and it works better for me. So probably not getting another FA deck for a while because of that
[close]

Quasi then? Close to the same, i.e., very square blunt shape but with 14.25"+ WBs
[close]

I love Quasi. Super hard to get up in Canada consistently but I’m always keeping an eye for an 8.38 or 8.5. Had a 8.38 Bledsoe mushroom and I learned so many tricks on it

Also WKND has a really short (31.5") 14"WB 8.25" square shape as well, right up there with FA/Quasi shape.

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2021, 08:39:25 PM »
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Expand Quote
I like them but wish the tail was longer. Symmetrical nose and tails are so much easier to skate.

Short wb are the future of skate shapes but I recently sized up to a larger wheelbase and it works better for me. So probably not getting another FA deck for a while because of that
[close]

Quasi then? Close to the same, i.e., very square blunt shape but with 14.25"+ WBs
[close]

I love Quasi. Super hard to get up in Canada consistently but I’m always keeping an eye for an 8.38 or 8.5. Had a 8.38 Bledsoe mushroom and I learned so many tricks on it
[close]

Also WKND has a really short (31.5") 14"WB 8.25" square shape as well, right up there with FA/Quasi shape.

That the ct shape? Dimensions sound perfect for me. Didn’t see it for sale, wasn’t looking real hard tho. Did you like Xen? What did you set it up with? I’m a lot shorter than you are, so those short boards get me hyped

Space Cowboy

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2021, 09:01:23 PM »
FA/Hockey 8.5 w Thunder 149 polished and spitfire f4 56mm conicals

perfect

This is literally my exact Christmas complete haha, I’ve been riding indys for years so I’m hyped to try the lighter trucks

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2021, 09:10:44 PM »
I love Quasi. Super hard to get up in Canada consistently but I’m always keeping an eye for an 8.38 or 8.5. Had a 8.38 Bledsoe mushroom and I learned so many tricks on it

I work at a skate shop in central Canada and there’s been a super steady flow of Fa, Hockey, and quasi decks, although a few select graphics only stay in the states

Hope your staying warm as well

Mr. Kamikazi

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2021, 07:55:16 AM »
gotta be steep and wide, so usually FA or Polar unless I press my own batch

They are in fact wide.

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2021, 05:44:26 PM »
I skate the 8" or 8.18" FA shape . It has a 14" WB , super fat squared off nose.

I tend to like this shape better than any other board I've tried.


I’ve ogled your setups in the last, I skate the same trucks. What do you like about the shape/monster nose?
I’ve had some fa, but always bigger sizes, with taller trucks and big wheels.
I’m halfway to buying another one, 8-8.18, to go with 5.2 lo’s and 52s.

Xen

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2021, 05:59:02 PM »
Expand Quote
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Expand Quote
I like them but wish the tail was longer. Symmetrical nose and tails are so much easier to skate.

Short wb are the future of skate shapes but I recently sized up to a larger wheelbase and it works better for me. So probably not getting another FA deck for a while because of that
[close]

Quasi then? Close to the same, i.e., very square blunt shape but with 14.25"+ WBs
[close]

I love Quasi. Super hard to get up in Canada consistently but I’m always keeping an eye for an 8.38 or 8.5. Had a 8.38 Bledsoe mushroom and I learned so many tricks on it
[close]

Also WKND has a really short (31.5") 14"WB 8.25" square shape as well, right up there with FA/Quasi shape.
[close]

That the ct shape? Dimensions sound perfect for me. Didn’t see it for sale, wasn’t looking real hard tho. Did you like Xen? What did you set it up with? I’m a lot shorter than you are, so those short boards get me hyped

@ok  No clue what the 'CT' shape is, but it's their most common 8.25" shape that I've come across. It was much too small for me being 31.5"/14"WB - but shape-wise it's right up there with the Quasi Proto for sure; no idea what I had it setup with. EDIT: I see the CT shape, yeah it was those dims but on the bandaid not rounded shape; who knows if they are making them these days (same dims and shapes from a couple of years ago).

https://shop.wkndbrand.com/collections/wknd-decks/products/subconscious-sediment-christian-maalouf-8-25-8-375?variant=32376420728919


topfrog10

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2021, 07:51:01 AM »
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I like them but wish the tail was longer. Symmetrical nose and tails are so much easier to skate.

Short wb are the future of skate shapes but I recently sized up to a larger wheelbase and it works better for me. So probably not getting another FA deck for a while because of that
[close]

Quasi then? Close to the same, i.e., very square blunt shape but with 14.25"+ WBs
[close]

I love Quasi. Super hard to get up in Canada consistently but I’m always keeping an eye for an 8.38 or 8.5. Had a 8.38 Bledsoe mushroom and I learned so many tricks on it
[close]

Also WKND has a really short (31.5") 14"WB 8.25" square shape as well, right up there with FA/Quasi shape.
[close]

That the ct shape? Dimensions sound perfect for me. Didn’t see it for sale, wasn’t looking real hard tho. Did you like Xen? What did you set it up with? I’m a lot shorter than you are, so those short boards get me hyped
[close]

@ok  No clue what the 'CT' shape is, but it's their most common 8.25" shape that I've come across. It was much too small for me being 31.5"/14"WB - but shape-wise it's right up there with the Quasi Proto for sure; no idea what I had it setup with. EDIT: I see the CT shape, yeah it was those dims but on the bandaid not rounded shape; who knows if they are making them these days (same dims and shapes from a couple of years ago).

https://shop.wkndbrand.com/collections/wknd-decks/products/subconscious-sediment-christian-maalouf-8-25-8-375?variant=32376420728919



I copped a WKND Thompson 8.25CT board a couple months ago. I really liked everything about it except the concave, the length was perfect for my height though (5'11"). Board was definitely square so I think it would be a decent shorter sub for a FA. The WKND size chart was hella helpful for me, it's a slide on the link to the board attached.
https://shop.wkndbrand.com/products/factory-trevor-thompson-8-18-8-25ct

IpathCats

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2021, 08:03:29 AM »
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.

Xen

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2021, 03:16:36 PM »
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.

After skating some tapered SC boards I really lost my taste for full nose/tails, which surprised me but I can't flick'em better...I don't blunt that often, just an occasional f/b blunt, I can't noseblunt to save my life.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 03:34:05 PM by Xen »

IpathCats

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2021, 03:25:32 PM »
Expand Quote
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.
[close]

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.

Bulky is a good way to phrase it. It's just too much.

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2021, 03:59:00 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.
[close]

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.
[close]

Bulky is a good way to phrase it. It's just too much.

Square shapes make the board seem/ride bigger than the listed size, imo.
Pointy kicks look ‘right’ to me. Basically Baker boards, but I prefer 14” wb, they use 14.25”.

Xen, what tapered boards? Saw those Asta ones, probably would like one, but that company/asta aren’t exactly my fave

Xen

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2021, 05:12:26 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.
[close]

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.
[close]

Bulky is a good way to phrase it. It's just too much.
[close]

Square shapes make the board seem/ride bigger than the listed size, imo.
Pointy kicks look ‘right’ to me. Basically Baker boards, but I prefer 14” wb, they use 14.25”.

Xen, what tapered boards? Saw those Asta ones, probably would like one, but that company/asta aren’t exactly my fave

If Baker made their 8.25 with the correct length I'd ride a lot more of them; they're listed as 31.875 but they are always 32" or over, like 32.1 (I know, fucking millimeters :P). What I'm trying to find now are the 14.18" Wheelbases, they feel really good to me with Thunders or Ventures.

8.3 Santa Cruz and 8.25" VX, after those I went to more standard/less full shapes..Almost and a Palace (tho that palace was kind full-ish) but didn't enjoy the longer wheelbases, I got really used to that SC VX deck. 31.8"x8.25x14.18 - the taper kicks made it feel smaller.

topfrog10

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2021, 05:50:33 PM »
Expand Quote
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.
[close]

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.

After skating some tapered SC boards I really lost my taste for full nose/tails, which surprised me but I can't flick'em better...I don't blunt that often, just an occasional f/b blunt, I can't noseblunt to save my life.
@xen bulky in what way?

Mbrimson88

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2021, 10:48:34 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.
[close]

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.
[close]

Bulky is a good way to phrase it. It's just too much.
[close]

Square shapes make the board seem/ride bigger than the listed size, imo.
Pointy kicks look ‘right’ to me. Basically Baker boards, but I prefer 14” wb, they use 14.25”.

Xen, what tapered boards? Saw those Asta ones, probably would like one, but that company/asta aren’t exactly my fave
[close]

If Baker made their 8.25 with the correct length I'd ride a lot more of them; they're listed as 31.875 but they are always 32" or over, like 32.1 (I know, fucking millimeters :P). What I'm trying to find now are the 14.18" Wheelbases, they feel really good to me with Thunders or Ventures.

8.3 Santa Cruz and 8.25" VX, after those I went to more standard/less full shapes..Almost and a Palace (tho that palace was kind full-ish) but didn't enjoy the longer wheelbases, I got really used to that SC VX deck. 31.8"x8.25x14.18 - the taper kicks made it feel smaller.


It might have been an older board or you might have even seen them, but April had something in those dimensions:

https://www.momentumskate.com.au/products/aprilrosecolourdeck825

Features:

Width - 8.25"
Length - 31.75"
Wheelbase - 14.125"

I talk too much about skateboards.  Sorry.

fs1/2cab

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2021, 11:49:57 AM »
I got a new polar in 8.25 today because I wanted to size up a bit. But still have a few decks to go through first.
Will 139s be too much magic carpet for 8.25?

But the specs for the polar sound really good.

8.25 × 31.875 and 14.125 wb

Shape is not AWS square and not as pointy as crail.
IG: @flowterspace

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2021, 11:58:24 AM »
I got a new polar in 8.25 today because I wanted to size up a bit. But still have a few decks to go through first.
Will 139s be too much magic carpet for 8.25?

But the specs for the polar sound really good.

8.25 × 31.875 and 14.125 wb

Shape is not AWS square and not as pointy as crail.

139s on 8.25 works really well for me, but it’ll have some magic carpet for sure. You can always toss a few more washers on the hanger side of the truck to space the wheel out a bit.

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2021, 12:12:51 PM »
Expand Quote
I got a new polar in 8.25 today because I wanted to size up a bit. But still have a few decks to go through first.
Will 139s be too much magic carpet for 8.25?

But the specs for the polar sound really good.

8.25 × 31.875 and 14.125 wb

Shape is not AWS square and not as pointy as crail.
[close]

139s on 8.25 works really well for me, but it’ll have some magic carpet for sure. You can always toss a few more washers on the hanger side of the truck to space the wheel out a bit.

Well I already have three washers on each inside ^^
Just from the looks of it, 139 seem a bit too small for 8.125 decks. But I can't/won't retire these trucks before they are done or break. Went to hell and back on these.
IG: @flowterspace

Xen

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2021, 12:35:13 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I didn't realize how much I hated the shape until I rode a sour right after a hockey. The sour had mellow kicks and a good bit of taper on the the nose and tail, so basically the opposite of the hockey. It felt sooooo much better to me, and I definitely skated better on it.
[close]

I've been on tapered/regular pops for a bit now and decided to get a Quasi Proto...set it up and immediately was like nah...to steep/too bulky...it's still setup and I've ridden a few times but I just don't prefer that shape anymore (and I loved all the 8.25" protos when I was skating them back to back); it's just something to get used to.
[close]

Bulky is a good way to phrase it. It's just too much.
[close]

Square shapes make the board seem/ride bigger than the listed size, imo.
Pointy kicks look ‘right’ to me. Basically Baker boards, but I prefer 14” wb, they use 14.25”.

Xen, what tapered boards? Saw those Asta ones, probably would like one, but that company/asta aren’t exactly my fave
[close]

If Baker made their 8.25 with the correct length I'd ride a lot more of them; they're listed as 31.875 but they are always 32" or over, like 32.1 (I know, fucking millimeters :P). What I'm trying to find now are the 14.18" Wheelbases, they feel really good to me with Thunders or Ventures.

8.3 Santa Cruz and 8.25" VX, after those I went to more standard/less full shapes..Almost and a Palace (tho that palace was kind full-ish) but didn't enjoy the longer wheelbases, I got really used to that SC VX deck. 31.8"x8.25x14.18 - the taper kicks made it feel smaller.
[close]


It might have been an older board or you might have even seen them, but April had something in those dimensions:

https://www.momentumskate.com.au/products/aprilrosecolourdeck825

Features:

Width - 8.25"
Length - 31.75"
Wheelbase - 14.125"



Nice. Wonder how accurate this was/is? I saw dims posted for the same board and they were: 14" / 31.92"

Mbrimson88

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2021, 02:39:40 PM »
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I got a new polar in 8.25 today because I wanted to size up a bit. But still have a few decks to go through first.
Will 139s be too much magic carpet for 8.25?

But the specs for the polar sound really good.

8.25 × 31.875 and 14.125 wb

Shape is not AWS square and not as pointy as crail.
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139s on 8.25 works really well for me, but it’ll have some magic carpet for sure. You can always toss a few more washers on the hanger side of the truck to space the wheel out a bit.
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Well I already have three washers on each inside ^^
Just from the looks of it, 139 seem a bit too small for 8.125 decks. But I can't/won't retire these trucks before they are done or break. Went to hell and back on these.

Skate them til they are dead!

Before 144s came out, I had 139s on 8.125 for a long time, washers on the inside to bring the wheels out and although I found that the 144s were a much better fit to my eye, a lot of tricks I had to readjust for the wider trucks on that board, even compared to the 149s on my 8.5 which I was used to for doing things differently, if that makes any sense.

I think overall it was a better fit with 144s on the 8.125, but I can still jump on some of my older setups with 139s and feel so comfortable.
I talk too much about skateboards.  Sorry.

Mbrimson88

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2021, 02:44:22 PM »
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It might have been an older board or you might have even seen them, but April had something in those dimensions:

https://www.momentumskate.com.au/products/aprilrosecolourdeck825

Features:

Width - 8.25"
Length - 31.75"
Wheelbase - 14.125"


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Nice. Wonder how accurate this was/is? I saw dims posted for the same board and they were: 14" / 31.92"

It would suck to order one and not get what was stated in specs.

At least maybe keep an eye on the April brand because I feel like they would be a shorter board in general.

Just a thought anyway.

I talk too much about skateboards.  Sorry.

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Re: FA/Hockey Shapes
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2021, 07:27:45 PM »
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It might have been an older board or you might have even seen them, but April had something in those dimensions:

https://www.momentumskate.com.au/products/aprilrosecolourdeck825

Features:

Width - 8.25"
Length - 31.75"
Wheelbase - 14.125"


[close]

Nice. Wonder how accurate this was/is? I saw dims posted for the same board and they were: 14" / 31.92"
[close]

It would suck to order one and not get what was stated in specs.

At least maybe keep an eye on the April brand because I feel like they would be a shorter board in general.

Just a thought anyway.



Ordered a Polar as it was to have a 14.18 WB, fucker ended up being 14.33. Never again.